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Stuart Lyon

Even More SNP Nonsense

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redjambo
2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

See my response above. 

 

 

Bloody hell, the stats in that article are all over the place.

 

"Some 42 percent of Czechs and 40 percent of Slovaks agree with Czechoslovakia's division on January 1, 1993"

 

"The 1993 establishment of the independent Czech Republic and Slovakia was given a positive rating by 53 percent of Czechs and 51 percent of Slovaks."

 

???

 

Also: "However, roughly two-thirds of both Czechs and Slovaks are of the view that the split without a referendum was wrong." - this appears to mean that 2/3 believe that it shouldn't have taken place, not that they are unhappy with the situation as it is at the moment. Or perhaps they thought that the split without a referendum was wrong, not necessarily that the split itself was wrong. Who knows? The translation into English has not done this topic any favours at all.

 

Given that you're knowledgeable on the subject, can you get your hands on the actual results of the polls referred to in the article (in the original languages preferably) so that we can try and make sense of them?

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Smithee
25 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

If we go back to your original comment, you suggested that quite a lot of countries split from larger arrangements in the past 25 years and none of them were asked to answer the sort of questions being asked of Scottish Nationalists prior to referendums. Clearly, a suggestion that there should be no need for such questions to be answered in Scotland. 

 

You are now suggesting that “not one of them was held to the standards you hold the Scottish independence movement to”.

 

Well, how could they have been since not a single country has been identified that split as the direct result of a single issue vote. 

 

Your are in a hole and keep on digging away at this. Step away, it’s pointless - you made a mistake, it happens. 

 

The Czech polls from last year -

http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/12/05/poll-slovaks-czechs-divided-czechoslovakias-split

Honestly, I don't know what hole you think I'm digging, my only point was that you hold the Scottish nationalist movement to a standard that can't be met and has never been expected from anyone else.

As to your link, I'd be interested in the source if you have it as my personal experience is very different. I also note the article says a majority thought the split without a referendum was wrong, and that actually a small majority approve overall. No source for the figures is attributed though, which would be handy as that article's a bit of a mess.

 

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Seymour M Hersh
8 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

I do but you suggested that the list I posted was the powers the EU have. I’m saying theyre Westminsters. 

So I ask again, what powers on that list would be transferred to the EU in the event of Scotland becoming independent? 

 

Ken what, dinny bother. Same auld shite. We can leave the EU but not May’s bosom. 

Wesminster Good. Scotland, an international irrelevance that will never amount to much without mummy & daddy south of the border. 

 

Thats about right eh?

 

You're off your head.  But carry on looking up anti tory guff on the internet regardless of veracity and posting them on here as if they mean something. You're taking over from legions and niblick for conspiracies! 

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ri Alban
15 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

SNP Government were well warned that by raising taxes in Scotland for the highest earners they ran the risk of people moving their tax jurisdiction elsewhere within the UK. The reality is that the Government are now short by £506m in tax take from the first year of operation. Either estimates were wrong or some people have chosen to relocate for tax purposes. 

:liesalarm:

 

 

These figure are from 2016/17, the new tax rate was introduced in April 2018.

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Arnold Rothstein
27 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

:liesalarm:

 

 

These figure are from 2016/17, the new tax rate was introduced in April 2018.

 

Problem solved then aye?

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Pans Jambo
1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You're off your head.  But carry on looking up anti tory guff on the internet regardless of veracity and posting them on here as if they mean something. You're taking over from legions and niblick for conspiracies! 

Conspiracies? :cornette:

 

Like Brexit is on track for a good result & it’ll all be OK because the tories are doing a grand job & we should just keep the faith? 

But lets not even consider there could be a better alternative for our country without Westminster telling us what we can & cant do?

After all, we should just be grateful that we have David Mundell to look after us eh?

 

That kind of conspiracy?

 

Its your lot that are all batshit mental. 

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Thunderstruck
8 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Bloody hell, the stats in that article are all over the place.

 

"Some 42 percent of Czechs and 40 percent of Slovaks agree with Czechoslovakia's division on January 1, 1993"

 

"The 1993 establishment of the independent Czech Republic and Slovakia was given a positive rating by 53 percent of Czechs and 51 percent of Slovaks."

 

???

 

Also: "However, roughly two-thirds of both Czechs and Slovaks are of the view that the split without a referendum was wrong." - this appears to mean that 2/3 believe that it shouldn't have taken place, not that they are unhappy with the situation as it is at the moment. Or perhaps they thought that the split without a referendum was wrong, not necessarily that the split itself was wrong. Who knows? The translation into English has not done this topic any favours at all.

 

Given that you're knowledgeable on the subject, can you get your hands on the actual results of the polls referred to in the article (in the original languages preferably) so that we can try and make sense of them?

 

The link makes sense if you read it as distinct sections with questions on different aspects - just like the link you posted. The first 3 paragraphs are perfectly clear. The first two show a decrease in the numbers who were unhappy with the split and detail the change since 2012. The third shows the numbers unhappy that the split took place without a referendum. 

 

Later paragraphs look at the “establishment” which I take to be the mechanics of the split - the division of assets, etc.

 

These subsequent paragraphs also look back to 1918, the overthrow of communism and so on. 

 

This is not not the most objective source but has read the survey the same way:-

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201705291054098166-czechoslovakia-czech-citizens-poll/

 

If you disagree or have alternative data, I would be interested to see it but I am not really fussed either way - the point was merely an aside to the debate on whether any of the “quite a few” European countries dissolving in the past quarter of a century had to put forward any form of coherent plan before a referendum took place.

 

 

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jambo lodge
4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

:liesalarm:

 

 

These figure are from 2016/17, the new tax rate was introduced in April 2018.

So there has been a deficit in income tax receipts for two years.

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jambo lodge
15 hours ago, michael_bolton said:

 

While an element of pragmatism is required, I think you should really save your criticism for those who are morally bankrupt enough to go out of their way to avoid contributing to society by paying appropriate levels of taxation, rather than for a government that is simply asking for a contribution from those who have most.

 

Worth considering that many of those high earners will have been privately educated. Did you know that private schools are considered 'charities' and therefore basically subsidised by the taxpayer at large? Interesting.

 

Many of these high earners will also choose to live in Scotland because it is a safe country with the rule of law, infrastructure and economy provided to allow people to become wealthy. You're welcome.

 

Despite being provided with these things, these high earners see fit to squirrel their money away dishonestly to avoid paying their due into the pot. They are, essentially, scum. To criticise the government rather than these thieves is poor form.

 

I wouldn't consider myself left wing, as a rule, but people who avoid paying their due in tax, and I include inheritance tax in this, are the lowest of the low.

Not against higher taxes for the rich just highlighting the fact  that the SNP government got their sums wrong. Seems as if Scotland does not have as many high earners as first estimated. Will have a knock on effect to current years tax intake.

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Seymour M Hersh
5 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Conspiracies? :cornette:

 

Like Brexit is on track for a good result & it’ll all be OK because the tories are doing a grand job & we should just keep the faith? 

But lets not even consider there could be a better alternative for our country without Westminster telling us what we can & cant do?

After all, we should just be grateful that we have David Mundell to look after us eh?

 

That kind of conspiracy?

 

Its your lot that are all batshit mental. 

 

 

You're like a hibs defender! All over the place!  As long as you can spout your vitriolic abuse all is well. Off you go and find some more tom kite to cut & paste onto here, there's a good chap!! 

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redjambo
2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

The link makes sense if you read it as distinct sections with questions on different aspects - just like the link you posted. The first 3 paragraphs are perfectly clear. The first two show a decrease in the numbers who were unhappy with the split and detail the change since 2012. The third shows the numbers unhappy that the split took place without a referendum. 

 

Later paragraphs look at the “establishment” which I take to be the mechanics of the split - the division of assets, etc.

 

These subsequent paragraphs also look back to 1918, the overthrow of communism and so on. 

 

This is not not the most objective source but has read the survey the same way:-

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201705291054098166-czechoslovakia-czech-citizens-poll/

 

If you disagree or have alternative data, I would be interested to see it but I am not really fussed either way - the point was merely an aside to the debate on whether any of the “quite a few” European countries dissolving in the past quarter of a century had to put forward any form of coherent plan before a referendum took place.

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply. I'll have a root around. I guess the link I originally found was an exception then.

 

It kind of annoys me though that news articles are written which do not include the actual questions asked, the statistics of the responses received, and a short description of the survey methodology (or at least a link to this information). This is one of the ways in which we get fake news - because badly-written articles can be misinterpreted or actually misinterpret the original figures themselves.

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Pans Jambo
59 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

 

You're like a hibs defender! All over the place!  As long as you can spout your vitriolic abuse all is well. Off you go and find some more tom kite to cut & paste onto here, there's a good chap!! 

Look, I know you have been sold a lie. And you are that deep in that lie that youre just too ashamed to admit it now.

 

To use your analogy, youre like a hibs supporter. Been sold the dream for years but the reality always catches up with you.

 

Tall ho old boy!

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ri Alban
5 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

So there has been a deficit in income tax receipts for two years.

No. It'll take more time to gather the information.  

You either have to pay more for good services or wee have Shite services. What's it to be? 

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ri Alban
5 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

Not against higher taxes for the rich just highlighting the fact  that the SNP government got their sums wrong. Seems as if Scotland does not have as many high earners as first estimated. Will have a knock on effect to current years tax intake.

That's bollox spun by that twat running the tories atm. 

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ri Alban
9 hours ago, Arnold Rothstein said:

 

Problem solved then aye?

No Arnie it's not, but what is it to be, spend more than we have, or raise more and spend that. 

They do alright (The SNP) considering they have no borrowing power or corporation tax power(funny how little NI does). But at the end of the day you can only do so much with fake devolution with the overlord putting up hazards at every turn.  People say the SNP have no vision, well they offered total control and you shat yersel. 

Edited by ri Alban

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Seymour M Hersh
3 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Look, I know you have been sold a lie. And you are that deep in that lie that youre just too ashamed to admit it now.

 

To use your analogy, youre like a hibs supporter. Been sold the dream for years but the reality always catches up with you.

 

Tall ho old boy!

 

You're just like a broken record you left wingers. If anyone is deluding themselves it you. Socialism has failed everywhere but you are so brainwashed into hating conservatism and capitalism you are utterly blind to reality. It would be laughable if it wasn't't so sad. 

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jack D and coke

Here’s a terrible story of the Borders railway that a thinktank said would fail. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576?__twitter_impression=true

The Scotsman even put up a negative story earlier but had to remove it. A shambles that paper has become. Sooner it’s dead the better. Or taken over by proper Scotsmen. 

 

 

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Roxy Hearts
39 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Here’s a terrible story of the Borders railway that a thinktank said would fail. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576?__twitter_impression=true

The Scotsman even put up a negative story earlier but had to remove it. A shambles that paper has become. Sooner it’s dead the better. Or taken over by proper Scotsmen. 

 

 

Read the Scotsman article earlier. What a joke that paper has become and the unionist media in general. 

Edited by Roxy Hearts

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Pans Jambo
5 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

 

You're like a hibs defender! All over the place!  As long as you can spout your vitriolic abuse all is well. Off you go and find some more tom kite to cut & paste onto here, there's a good chap!! 

Ye. You said that earlier further up the page. 

Cracking. 

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Pans Jambo
49 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Here’s a terrible story of the Borders railway that a thinktank said would fail. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576?__twitter_impression=true

The Scotsman even put up a negative story earlier but had to remove it. A shambles that paper has become. Sooner it’s dead the better. Or taken over by proper Scotsmen. 

 

 

Wait. I though the SNP was bad? I’m confused. 

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Arnold Rothstein
3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

No Arnie it's not, but what is it to be, spend more than we have, or raise more and spend that. 

They do alright (The SNP) considering they have no borrowing power or corporation tax power(funny how little NI does). But at the end of the day you can only do so much with fake devolution with the overlord putting up hazards at every turn.  People say the SNP have no vision, well they offered total control and you shat yersel. 

 

Keep up the overlord/shat yersel bollocks; it’s bound to get people on side eventually. You’re a loon. 

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Boris
15 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You're just like a broken record you left wingers. If anyone is deluding themselves it you. Socialism has failed everywhere but you are so brainwashed into hating conservatism and capitalism you are utterly blind to reality. It would be laughable if it wasn't't so sad. 

 

Post war, the introduction of the welfare state, NHS etc by the Atlee government would be described as socialist.  Generally accepted in this country as good things.

 

What the Tory party have become is essentially spivvery, as is the form of capitalism that they propogate.

 

When people want to change this system, they aren't wanting to destroy capitalism, far from it, but what they are wanting is accountability and social responsibility.

 

If people are working and still not earning enough to survive, then the system is patently not working properly.

 

 

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Geoff the Mince
13 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Post war, the introduction of the welfare state, NHS etc by the Atlee government would be described as socialist.  Generally accepted in this country as good things.

 

What the Tory party have become is essentially spivvery, as is the form of capitalism that they propogate.

 

When people want to change this system, they aren't wanting to destroy capitalism, far from it, but what they are wanting is accountability and social responsibility.

 

If people are working and still not earning enough to survive, then the system is patently not working properly.

 

 

Well said . 

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pablo
31 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Post war, the introduction of the welfare state, NHS etc by the Atlee government would be described as socialist.  Generally accepted in this country as good things.

 

What the Tory party have become is essentially spivvery, as is the form of capitalism that they propogate.

 

When people want to change this system, they aren't wanting to destroy capitalism, far from it, but what they are wanting is accountability and social responsibility.

 

If people are working and still not earning enough to survive, then the system is patently not working properly.

 

 

 

You think that the Tory party is somehow in control of the direction Capitalism is travelling? 

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Pans Jambo
Just now, pablo said:

 

You think that the Tory party is somehow in control of the direction Capitalism is travelling? 

Well most of them run it!

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pablo
3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Well most of them run it!

 

Sigh.  The Conservative Party runs capitalism? Half the time they look barely capable of running a bath. 

 

I'm sure that Elon Musk bloke and the rest of silicon valley are never off the phone to Downing Street looking for advice.

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Pans Jambo
4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Sigh.  The Conservative Party runs capitalism? Half the time they look barely capable of running a bath. 

 

I'm sure that Elon Musk bloke and the rest of silicon valley are never off the phone to Downing Street looking for advice.

We talking about the USA now?

What does the PM's husband do again?

Reese Mogg's businesses?

Many many other tory MP's and Peers (& other parties of course).

Theyre all on boards of some large corporation or business shareholders or part of the 'family business'. Hand in the cookie jar! Creating policy to make themselves & their chums rich whilst paying the bare minimum to everyone else. Its a direct conflict of interest. MP's are meant to improve our lot. NOT solely strive to improve theirs!

Policies designed to assist in the payment of low wages/low taxes then help the 'working poor' claim benefits from the tax payer to supplement their pittance of a pay. Thats not right.

The government basically give grants to businesses to allow them to pay slave labour wages. Its shite!

The government could if the really wanted to change the system, but there's no way they will. Only we can do that collectively.

The wealth does NOT 'trickle down'. The system is broken and its not my fault.

Edited by Pans Jambo

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pablo
4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

We talking about the USA now?

What does the PM's husband do again?

Reese Mogg's businesses?

Many many other tory MP's and Peers (& other parties of course).

Theyre all on boards of some large corporation or business shareholders or part of the 'family business'. Hand in the cookie jar! Creating policy to make themselves & their chums rich whilst paying the bare minimum to everyone else. Its a direct conflict of interest. MP's are meant to improve our lot. NOT solely strive to improve theirs!

Policies designed to assist in the payment of low wages/low taxes then help the 'working poor' claim benefits from the tax payer to supplement their pittance of a pay. Thats not right.

The government basically give grants to businesses to allow them to pay slave labour wages. Its shite!

The government could if the really wanted to change the system, but there's no way they will. Only we can do that collectively.

The wealth does NOT 'trickle down'. The system is broken and its not my fault.

 

We're talking at cross purposes. 

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Boris
56 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

You think that the Tory party is somehow in control of the direction Capitalism is travelling? 

 

They can certainly set the tone in this country.

 

For example, on the radio yesterday there was talk of sanctions against Russia due to the Skripal incident, but the comentator was saying that the banking and finance houses have gotten so fat off the oligarch gravy train that the Govt may give that a miss.

 

You look at other countries, say Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, even Germany, and their model seems different to ours, where we have adopted a more US style of economic management.

 

Help businesses survive and thrive, help entrepreneurs, but the idea that a shareholder economy (which is our model) is beneficial to all of society is nonsense.  It is short termist and only interested in quarterly returns and sharehoolder dividends.  We need long term thinking and strategy.  Something sadly missing in this country for decades.

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JamboX2
17 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Here’s a terrible story of the Borders railway that a thinktank said would fail. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576?__twitter_impression=true

The Scotsman even put up a negative story earlier but had to remove it. A shambles that paper has become. Sooner it’s dead the better. Or taken over by proper Scotsmen. 

 

 

Define "proper Scotsman". 

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The Real Maroonblood
3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Define "proper Scotsman". 

Probably those that aren’t self loathing like a few on this forum.

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ri Alban
4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Define "proper Scotsman". 

If you don't know.

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JamboX2
2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Probably those that aren’t self loathing like a few on this forum.

 

So those who agree with the online nationalist community? 

 

Good to see nationalism in it's civic form is distinguishing who is and isn't a proper Scotsman for the rest of us.

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The Real Maroonblood
6 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So those who agree with the online nationalist community? 

 

Good to see nationalism in it's civic form is distinguishing who is and isn't a proper Scotsman for the rest of us.

I didn’t imply that.

People can still disagree about independence but there are some who feel embarrassed about being Scottish.

You know the posters I am talking about.

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pablo
44 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

They can certainly set the tone in this country.

 

For example, on the radio yesterday there was talk of sanctions against Russia due to the Skripal incident, but the comentator was saying that the banking and finance houses have gotten so fat off the oligarch gravy train that the Govt may give that a miss.

 

You look at other countries, say Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, even Germany, and their model seems different to ours, where we have adopted a more US style of economic management.

 

Help businesses survive and thrive, help entrepreneurs, but the idea that a shareholder economy (which is our model) is beneficial to all of society is nonsense.  It is short termist and only interested in quarterly returns and sharehoolder dividends.  We need long term thinking and strategy.  Something sadly missing in this country for decades.

 

Don't disagree with you on that. I was challenging the idea that a UK political party was in control of the direction of travel from Capitalism to Talentism.

 

How Airbnb are a hotel accommodation business who don't own buildings, Uber a taxi company who don't own cars. Tesla engines having 18 parts compared to thousands of parts in petrol car engines. Drones delivering food and medicines to refugees in warzones ect, ect.

 

It's a changing world and the politicians aren't shaping it, in my opinion obviously. 

 

Sorry for going off topic. Right who's a real Scot and who's a traitor?

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Boris
5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Don't disagree with you on that. I was challenging the idea that a UK political party was in control of the direction of travel from Capitalism to Talentism.

 

Capitalism, as you no doubt know already, has many facets.  Talentism, if you like, being a subdivision.  The Government oversees the general running of the economy and can help shape the direction of travel.

 

Quote

 

How Airbnb are a hotel accommodation business who don't own buildings, Uber a taxi company who don't own cars. Tesla engines having 18 parts compared to thousands of parts in petrol car engines. Drones delivering food and medicines to refugees in warzones ect, ect.

 

It's a changing world and the politicians aren't shaping it, in my opinion obviously. 

 

Politicians can shape some things, international relations for example, but I'd agree that individuals/entrepreneurs shape the economy, or can do if not held back by lack of investment.

 

Quote

 

Sorry for going off topic. Right who's a real Scot and who's a traitor?

 

:rofl:

 

Anyone can be a real Scot, but no one is a traitor, IMO. :thumb:

Edited by Boris

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JamboX2
1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I didn’t imply that.

People can still disagree about independence but there are some who feel embarrassed about being Scottish.

You know the posters I am talking about.

 

Do you mean those who criticise the government for it's failings or lack of ambition? Or those who just have a different view point entirely on what  constitutes progress?

 

I don't see many here who are embarrassed about Scotland. On the contrary, I just think some folk are right to flag it isn't all roses.

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ri Alban
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Do you mean those who criticise the government for it's failings or lack of ambition? Or those who just have a different view point entirely on what  constitutes progress?

 

I don't see many here who are embarrassed about Scotland. On the contrary, I just think some folk are right to flag it isn't all roses.

:facepalm:Away and don't talk pish.

 

 

Independence! How's that for ambition. 

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JamboX2
8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

:facepalm:Away and don't talk pish.

 

 

Independence! How's that for ambition. 

 

Agreed ambitious. Much like Brexit is. Or furthering devolution. But how about education? Health? Local Government financin? You know stuff that matters day to day.

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