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Even More SNP Nonsense


Stuart Lyon

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I read the statement from link and thought it was a fake statement.

 

Now seeing jambox2 respond to make me think it might be for real.

 

It's incredibly poor and pointless imo.

I was skeptical at first but it's the official SNP site. Such a poor statement.

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Malinga the Swinga

"If you spend some of your hard-earned income on one thing, there?s less cash to spend on something else. You want that new coat? Fine, but it might mean cutting back on other things.

And so it is with the nation?s finances. "

Straight from Maggie's playbook that one Tosh.

Equally, taking a note out of Wilson's book:

"those higher earners affected will contribute ?7.70 a week more - not more than they do now, but more than similar taxpayers in other parts of the UK"

So more... and equivalence with a prescription you may never even need is a bit dodgy too. What if you'd rather that money was spent elsewhere? Nurses?

"Without a Budget agreement, councils and other public bodies can?t make their own spending plans, services would be under threat and ultimately wages wouldn?t be paid.

Of course things would never get to that stage ? although with the behaviour of some politicians at Holyrood I sometimes wonder how far they would be prepared to take things in the name of opposition for opposition?s sake."

So again, opposition based on either (a) not wanting Scottish services to be cut further by raising further revenue or (B) not to force middle income tax payers to pay ?7.70 more per week than their counterparts has nothing to do with the manifestos those politicians were elected on and their duty to them nor to political principle? Nothing. Just opportunism? Aye... ok. SNPGood v OppositionBad.

"The divide is now between those who want to govern and achieve for Scotland ? and those who simply want to wreck things.

It?s a divide between those who want to deliver for our communities and an agenda intent on leaving us at the mercy of right-wing Tories at Westminster."

Wow... so those in the Labour or Liberal parties who sought tax rises to totally mitigate the cuts which, whilst lessened, will still hit home from the budget or those who are Tories and believe in a low tax economy are simply all tools and puppets here to degrade Scotland? Really? This stuff is so pitiful. The fawning attitude to a sell out Green Party as well screams that this budget is no longer about the services she's cutting but about the "greater" cause of independence. After all it transcends all else.

Neither Sturgeon or SNP give a monkeys for Scotland or its citizens, all they are concerned with is keeping power for the small elite clique that runs the party. If they can do this by blaming England and the English for everything and anything, then they will do so. They don't even need evidence as it supporters blindly accept every word they speak and write as if it were gospel.

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Neither Sturgeon or SNP give a monkeys for Scotland or its citizens, all they are concerned with is keeping power for the small elite clique that runs the party. If they can do this by blaming England and the English for everything and anything, then they will do so. They don't even need evidence as it supporters blindly accept every word they speak and write as if it were gospel.

isn't that true of all the mainstream political parties?

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Malinga the Swinga

isn't that true of all the mainstream political parties?

it is getting there but not quite. The Republican party in US seem to be led by a man who is following through on his promises but I believe that is covered in another thread.
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Space Mackerel

"If you spend some of your hard-earned income on one thing, there?s less cash to spend on something else. You want that new coat? Fine, but it might mean cutting back on other things.

And so it is with the nation?s finances. "

Straight from Maggie's playbook that one Tosh.

Equally, taking a note out of Wilson's book:

"those higher earners affected will contribute ?7.70 a week more - not more than they do now, but more than similar taxpayers in other parts of the UK"

So more... and equivalence with a prescription you may never even need is a bit dodgy too. What if you'd rather that money was spent elsewhere? Nurses?

"Without a Budget agreement, councils and other public bodies can?t make their own spending plans, services would be under threat and ultimately wages wouldn?t be paid.

Of course things would never get to that stage ? although with the behaviour of some politicians at Holyrood I sometimes wonder how far they would be prepared to take things in the name of opposition for opposition?s sake."

So again, opposition based on either (a) not wanting Scottish services to be cut further by raising further revenue or (B) not to force middle income tax payers to pay ?7.70 more per week than their counterparts has nothing to do with the manifestos those politicians were elected on and their duty to them nor to political principle? Nothing. Just opportunism? Aye... ok. SNPGood v OppositionBad.

"The divide is now between those who want to govern and achieve for Scotland ? and those who simply want to wreck things.

It?s a divide between those who want to deliver for our communities and an agenda intent on leaving us at the mercy of right-wing Tories at Westminster."

Wow... so those in the Labour or Liberal parties who sought tax rises to totally mitigate the cuts which, whilst lessened, will still hit home from the budget or those who are Tories and believe in a low tax economy are simply all tools and puppets here to degrade Scotland? Really? This stuff is so pitiful. The fawning attitude to a sell out Green Party as well screams that this budget is no longer about the services she's cutting but about the "greater" cause of independence. After all it transcends all else.

It'll be a wee shame when all your Labour Councillors are getting the heave ho soon, the very ones who plan the budgets and spending that are crucial to the people who need it most.

North Lanarkshire being the obvious start given recent allegations, and not for the first time if I remember correctly.

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It'll be a wee shame when all your Labour Councillors are getting the heave ho soon, the very ones who plan the budgets and spending that are crucial to the people who need it most.

North Lanarkshire being the obvious start given recent allegations, and not for the first time if I remember correctly.

Democracy is what it is. If Labour lose councillors then that's that at the end of the day.

 

What allegations out of interest? Genuinely not heard of these.

 

That doesn't escape the fact that the article which was linked by Tosh is utter political fantasy and a series of nonsense statements. It effectively says that if you disagree with the SNP you are all for wrecking Scotland. I disagree with the cuts which are coming from Holyrood. I do not want to wreck Scotland.

 

It's not healthy for us to head down this us v them route. Especially because it is purely based on constitutional lines rather than political ones.

Edited by JamboX2
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isn't that true of all the mainstream political parties?

Dunno. There seems to be quite a bit of healthy debate within the UK parties. I see Gerry Hassan reported that Brexit backing Alex Neil votes for the SNP's pro-EU membership motion at Holyrood. Bit odd.

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The SNP is not a mainstream political party , its a movement with one goal in mind. Anything that helps them towards that goal is good, anything against that goal is used by the party machine to create division and suspicion. They play the "Westminster and Tory" card all the time yet are pleased to accept Westminster's annual contribution towards party funds and were happy to get assistance from the Tories when Salmond first came to power. They would sell their granny to achieve their goal of independence.   

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The SNP is not a mainstream political party , its a movement with one goal in mind. Anything that helps them towards that goal is good, anything against that goal is used by the party machine to create division and suspicion. They play the "Westminster and Tory" card all the time yet are pleased to accept Westminster's annual contribution towards party funds and were happy to get assistance from the Tories when Salmond first came to power. They would sell their granny to achieve their goal of independence.   

This is exactly the problem with single-issue groups.  They have to sell-out on good governance if it affects their ultimate single goal.   Meanwhile the SNP are trapped- they are representing Scotland at Westminster - the one place they dont want to be part of.   And the better they represent, the more people will vote for this to continue, hence the higher percentage of folk who vote for SNP to represent them at Westminster/Holyrood elections but the lower for Independence.  Many Nats don't realise they are defeating their own purposes.

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HaymarketJambo

The SNP is not a mainstream political party , its a movement with one goal in mind. Anything that helps them towards that goal is good, anything against that goal is used by the party machine to create division and suspicion. They play the "Westminster and Tory" card all the time yet are pleased to accept Westminster's annual contribution towards party funds and were happy to get assistance from the Tories when Salmond first came to power. They would sell their granny to achieve their goal of independence.   

 

It must be working for the SNP:

 

54 SNP have MP's Westminster compared with a mighty 3 MP's from the other Scottish Parties " Better Together"

 

SNP in a 3rd Term in government at Holyrood.

 

Latest poll for the council elections SNP 48% per cent away ahead of the rest. 

 

New poll for Scottish independence - No 51% - Yes 49%.

 

I think you will find that the SNP are doing fine thanks very much.    

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It must be working for the SNP:

 

54 SNP have MP's Westminster compared with a mighty 3 MP's from the other Scottish Parties " Better Together"

 

SNP in a 3rd Term in government at Holyrood.

 

Latest poll for the council elections SNP 48% per cent away ahead of the rest.

 

New poll for Scottish independence - No 51% - Yes 49%.

 

I think you will find that the SNP are doing fine thanks very much.

Indeed they are in Westminster and Holyrood and that will continue.

 

But to turn that into people voting to change to Indy is a different question.

 

Bring on Indy 2 to close this out once and for all.

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HaymarketJambo

Indeed they are in Westminster and Holyrood and that will continue.

 

But to turn that into people voting to change to Indy is a different question.

 

Bring on Indy 2 to close this out once and for all.

 

Bring on indy 2 on OK. 

 

I hope that they bring the Westminster brigade up.

 

Theresa May that should help the indy cause.

 

And

 

Hopefully Jeremy Corbyn who supports a United Ireland and who will lecture us Scots about independence.

 

You couldn't make it up (Brilliant)   

Edited by HaymarketJambo
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The SNP is not a mainstream political party , its a movement with one goal in mind. Anything that helps them towards that goal is good, anything against that goal is used by the party machine to create division and suspicion. They play the "Westminster and Tory" card all the time yet are pleased to accept Westminster's annual contribution towards party funds and were happy to get assistance from the Tories when Salmond first came to power. They would sell their granny to achieve their goal of independence.   

 

I find it gobsmacking people are still astounded by the fact the SNP want independence for Scotland. It's not like it's some ill-kept secret, they're quite explicit about it.

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Out of the UK, form a queue to join the EU, no Barnett formula and a huge deficit. Aye people will vote for that.

If an indy Scotland wanted to join the eu, who says there would be a queue?

 

Huge deficit, already have one in rUK!

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I was pro-independence when I was younger.

However as I have grown up, and observed I have rationalised that the gaps in budget that exist can only be filled by the likes of myself paying in even more, in return for even less.

As the alternative is that those with less get even less, which is also not ideal

And for what?

I don't feel inadequate, or subjugated.

I don't feel a prisoner in the Union.

I don't feel inferior, or not in control of my own destiny.

I am already a Scotsman with freedom to do whatever I so wish, and travel wherever I want.

I see no difference in my money being taken and squandered by some twats 100 miles away, or taken and squandered by twats 1000 miles away frankly

Did u vote?

If yes why, If you're not bothered either way.

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jack D and coke

Out of the UK, form a queue to join the EU, no Barnett formula and a huge deficit. Aye people will vote for that.

If an indy Scotland wanted to join the eu, who says there would be a queue?

 

Huge deficit, already have one in rUK!

A fact constantly ignored by a UK currently rocketing towards ?2 trillion of debt.

Do people believe we're ever getting out of that[emoji1]

UK debt and out of the EU=fine

Scotland debt out of the EU=end of world

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This is exactly the problem with single-issue groups. They have to sell-out on good governance if it affects their ultimate single goal. Meanwhile the SNP are trapped- they are representing Scotland at Westminster - the one place they dont want to be part of. And the better they represent, the more people will vote for this to continue, hence the higher percentage of folk who vote for SNP to represent them at Westminster/Holyrood elections but the lower for Independence. Many Nats don't realise they are defeating their own purposes.

UDI will be declared if the SNP collect the a same total of MPs at the next English GE, which will be this year.
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Yes. But only when it doesn't breach it's constitutional foundation in the Scotland Act. Therefore you can only get a referendum if either Westminster passes an Act to hold one or Holyrood is provided the consent and power to legislate for one by Westminster.

 

So yes, but it is conditional on agreement between the two governments and parliaments.

 

A better question is do people want one? At present on polls, they do not.

We need no permission from WM to feck all, the SNP should just UDI right now, they have the right with 54 mps. What's gonnae happen, nothing.
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UDI will be declared if the SNP collect the a same total of MPs at the next English GE, which will be this year.

UDI?   With only 45% support?     Well I assume you still plan to execute the 55%.

 

You've been on the Buckie again.

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UDI? With only 45% support? Well I assume you still plan to execute the 55%.

 

You've been on the Buckie again.

100% dee that's the % of Scots that voted. A gin drinking bloke loses all credibility when it comes to slagging anybody about drink.
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100% dee that's the % of Scots that voted. A gin drinking bloke loses all credibility when it comes to slagging anybody about drink.

Pure Edinburgh Gin mate.    Distilled and bottled in Scotland.   You stick to Buckie.

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If an indy Scotland wanted to join the eu, who says there would be a queue?

 

Huge deficit, already have one in rUK!

 

 

There was a few articles leading up to the referendum in 2014, and there's been a few since, scaremongering, fake news, alternative facts, who knows these days.

 

This is the most recent article though, with some of the countries mentioned having made there original applications almost 10 years ago, Turkey making there's as far back as 1987, so it certainly doesn't look at the moment as though there would be any quick entry into the EU for an Independent Scotland, if indeed they really wanted to join, or maybe the current Scottish governments pro-Euro stance is more to do with causing division in the UK.

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/360283/independent-scotland-behind-montenegro-serbia-bosnia-turkey-eu-queue-says-mep/

 

In fact entry into the EU currently makes Brexit seem like a very speedy process.

Edited by Adam Murray
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Would a new Scottish Central Bank be well equipped to borrow capital from the markets to fund the Scottish share of UK debt? I very much doubt it and certainly not at the very low rates the UK gets. Similarly with the annual Scottish budget deficit, who will fund our much promised march out of austerity? How to replace the funding currently received from Brussels?? There are more questions than answers the song goes.  

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jack D and coke

There was a few articles leading up to the referendum in 2014, and there's been a few since, scaremongering, fake news, alternative facts, who knows these days.

 

This is the most recent article though, with some of the countries mentioned having made there original applications almost 10 years ago, Turkey making there's as far back as 1987, so it certainly doesn't look at the moment as though there would be any quick entry into the EU for an Independent Scotland, if indeed they really wanted to join, or maybe the current Scottish governments pro-Euro stance is more to do with causing division in the UK.

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/360283/independent-scotland-behind-montenegro-serbia-bosnia-turkey-eu-queue-says-mep/

 

In fact entry into the EU currently makes Brexit seem like a very speedy process.

What a surprise it's a Spanish politician saying this. Sorry I find it laughable we'd be behind Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey for EU membership. Technically we've been in it, trading, having free movement etc etc etc for 40 years.

Not aimed at you mate but utter, utter bollocks.

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What a surprise it's a Spanish politician saying this. Sorry I find it laughable we'd be behind Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey for EU membership. Technically we've been in it, trading, having free movement etc etc etc for 40 years.

Not aimed at you mate but utter, utter bollocks.

 

 

As I said mate, who to believe eh. They're all at it these days.

 

Thing is, with this 'rules are rules' line that he comes out with, Scotland could find itself even further back in the queue, I'm picturing a Eurovision Song contest scenario here and all the countries who border each other voting for each other, and poor old Scotland getting 'nul points'  :tiny:

Edited by Adam Murray
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Bring on indy 2 on OK.

 

I hope that they bring the Westminster brigade up.

 

Theresa May that should help the indy cause.

 

And

 

Hopefully Jeremy Corbyn who supports a United Ireland and who will lecture us Scots about independence.

 

You couldn't make it up (Brilliant)

To be fair, Corbyn seems ambivalent towards independence.

 

You in Yes made the same argument about Messers Cameron and Osbourne.

 

And Westminster politicians representing the wider UK (including Welsh politicians in Cardiff) but the kybosh on a shared currency early doors by putting the interests of their electors over those in Scotland on that issue - which if independence had come would be their right.

 

Yes, as I keep saying, is fighting the wrong fight. As Jim Sillars has been arguing, the arguments employed haven't worked and are reactionary to Westminster rather than an assessment of the hear and now and the condition of Scotland once the nationalist specs are off.

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Space Mackerel

I find it gobsmacking people are still astounded by the fact the SNP want independence for Scotland. It's not like it's some ill-kept secret, they're quite explicit about it.

You can add probably half the remaining SLAB voters that will surely change plus the Greens and a few Lib Dems in the future.

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We need no permission from WM to feck all, the SNP should just UDI right now, they have the right with 54 mps. What's gonnae happen, nothing.

No one will recognise Scotland via UDI. You would set a dangerous precedent over the integrity of nation states in Europe and the West if you did so.

 

I agree though, the SNP shat it. They have a majority of seats and are a party of independence. Why not just have said in 2015 or 16 that a majority in favour of independence supporting parties elected in the election would be the green light to negotiate independence. No manifesto commitment though. Wonder why?

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No one will recognise Scotland via UDI. You would set a dangerous precedent over the integrity of nation states in Europe and the West if you did so.

 

I agree though, the SNP shat it. They have a majority of seats and are a party of independence. Why not just have said in 2015 or 16 that a majority in favour of independence supporting parties elected in the election would be the green light to negotiate independence. No manifesto commitment though. Wonder why?

Because Nicola knows she will lose. Again. Her dafties will still push for it but that's because they are not able to accept this obvious outcome.

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Because Nicola knows she will lose. Again. Her dafties will still push for it but that's because they are not able to accept this obvious outcome.

True

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Would a new Scottish Central Bank be well equipped to borrow capital from the markets to fund the Scottish share of UK debt? I very much doubt it and certainly not at the very low rates the UK gets. Similarly with the annual Scottish budget deficit, who will fund our much promised march out of austerity? How to replace the funding currently received from Brussels?? There are more questions than answers the song goes.

 

Scotlands debt would be owed to the UK government .

Terms i assume would be made to pay it.

Thats if it is even legally enforceable.

You can of course use different levers in the economy to generate wealth.

And a good example of sound banking where capital reserves should be built up avoids the disasters that caused all the debt.

That in turn gives confidence for investment.Although initially i would think Scotland like the majority of western governments would have to borrow.

As for brussels funding.That would be negated by our contribution although i must admit i dont know how that would balance .

I doubt its a serious amount.

 

The economic argument can be made but it might not appeal to most of the yes campaigns voters

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Space Mackerel

Because Nicola knows she will lose. Again. Her dafties will still push for it but that's because they are not able to accept this obvious outcome.

Is that right? How come the SNP gained over 50% of the vote last elections with more swapping over to the Yes movement since then?

How do you achieve this statement?

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Francis Albert

Is that right? How come the SNP gained over 50% of the vote last elections with more swapping over to the Yes movement since then?

How do you achieve this statement?

Not all who voted SNP support independence. Some just think they are better option for Westminster and Holyrood than the other options.

 

That's why the "yes" vote at the referendum and in subsequent polls has not got close to 50%.

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Is that right? How come the SNP gained over 50% of the vote last elections with more swapping over to the Yes movement since then?

How do you achieve this statement?

Because voting for SNP to represent them in Parliament is totally different to wanting Scotland to be independent.

 

That is why SNP can get 50% for the first but less for the second.

 

But you are unable to understand this obvious difference.

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Space Mackerel

Not all who voted SNP support independence. Some just think they are better option for Westminster and Holyrood than the other options.That's why the "yes" vote at the referendum and in subsequent polls has not got close to 50%.

That's because the SNP vote has always hovered about 46-47% for the last few years. Same as Indy 1 :)

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Is that right? How come the SNP gained over 50% of the vote last elections with more swapping over to the Yes movement since then?

How do you achieve this statement?

Seriously, you need to stop associating a vote for the SNP with a vote for independence.

 

Do you think the SNP would've won as many seats as they did in 2015 if they had said returning a majority of SNP MPs would cause independence? Or last year in 2016?

 

Personally, independence is hobbled by the whole movement circles one party and one institution in the SNP. Devolution was broader - trade unions, churches, charities, Liberals, Greens, Labour, SSP, businesses- were all a lot more prominent and all willing to cooperate. They designed a parliament in theory which was brought into effect by the Scotland Act. The independence movement has no equivalent. None.

 

Separate your party from the movement a minute. Broaden it. Make the movement the vehicle and the SNP a passenger.

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Probably shouldn't ask but..........

 

When do SNP supporters Indy 2 should be called?

 

Obviously brexit etc, is viewed as a material change. Should it be when brexit is triggered, when we know what the deal looks like, when we are actually out?

 

I'm interested, not really to debate point, just to understand the perspective.

 

I always viewed the material change as anything when the polls suggested a victory for yes was likely.

 

Also a supplementary if it's favour of staying in the U.K., similar to last time. Do you think we should get into the neveredum situation where one is called every 5-20 years until independence achieved.

It'll be August/September 2018.

 

It'll be very close. Closer than Brexit.

 

If the Yes movement lose it'll shatter their movement.

 

If the No side lose they'll end up accept it and move on. Really think Liberals, Labour and many Tories would take any opportunity to stop discussing it.

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Seriously, you need to stop associating a vote for the SNP with a vote for independence.

 

Do you think the SNP would've won as many seats as they did in 2015 if they had said returning a majority of SNP MPs would cause independence? Or last year in 2016?

 

Personally, independence is hobbled by the whole movement circles one party and one institution in the SNP. Devolution was broader - trade unions, churches, charities, Liberals, Greens, Labour, SSP, businesses- were all a lot more prominent and all willing to cooperate. They designed a parliament in theory which was brought into effect by the Scotland Act. The independence movement has no equivalent. None.

 

Separate your party from the movement a minute. Broaden it. Make the movement the vehicle and the SNP a passenger.

He can't see why there is a difference. It's a QED moment.

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Space Mackerel

It'll be August/September 2018.

It'll be very close. Closer than Brexit.

If the Yes movement lose it'll shatter their movement.

If the No side lose they'll end up accept it and move on. Really think Liberals, Labour and many Tories would take any opportunity to stop discussing it.

What will you vote? You're a Nu Labour man, siding with Maggie May and Mooth D?

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Space Mackerel

He can't see why there is a difference. It's a QED moment.

If it's a definite No when it's run, why are you and your cohorts on here getting flustered and staring numerous anti Sturgeon and SNP threads?

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That's because the SNP vote has always hovered about 46-47% for the last few years. Same as Indy 1 :)

Btw what resort is that Swiss Chalet in?

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What will you vote? You're a Nu Labour man, siding with Maggie May and Mooth D?

I'm waiting to see the lay of the land as the vote approaches. We have 0 idea of how the discussions will proceed on Brexit. Jim Sillars - Mr Nae Fear himself - has said this week the trade balance between the UK and the EU lends itself to a common sense deal (in which Scotland may benefit) which means independence at present is premature. The view of a man who's wanted independence his whole life.

 

We are living in a state of flux. We need to wait and see how things pan out and settle before making further major decisions.

 

I was for remain.

 

I was for No then voted Yes first time round.

 

I'm not sure how I'll vote next time out.

Edited by JamboX2
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Space Mackerel

I'm waiting to see the lay of the land as the vote approaches. We have 0 idea of how the discussions will proceed on Brexit. Jim Sillars - Mr Nae Fear himself - has said this week the trade balance between the UK and the EU lends itself to a common sense deal (in which Scotland may benefit) which means independence at present is premature. The view of a man who's wanted independence his whole life.

We are living in a state of flux. We need to wait and see how things pan out and settle before making further major decisions.

I was for remain.

I was for No then voted Yes first time round.

I'm not sure how I'll vote next time out.

So mibbe aye, mibbes naw?

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So mibbe aye, mibbes naw?

Leaning No. I don't think Yes and the SNP are facing up to the issues and causes of their first defeat. They botched their budget. They are scapegoating.

 

I don't have confidence in the Yes movement at present. I think they're in a 2014 bubble.

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It'll be August/September 2018.

It'll be very close. Closer than Brexit.

If the Yes movement lose it'll shatter their movement.

If the No side lose they'll end up accept it and move on. Really think Liberals, Labour and many Tories would take any opportunity to stop discussing it.

The Tories love discussing it! That's what explains their "surge"!

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Space Mackerel

Leaning No. I don't think Yes and the SNP are facing up to the issues and causes of their first defeat. They botched their budget. They are scapegoating.

I don't have confidence in the Yes movement at present. I think they're in a 2014 bubble.

The Yes movement haven't botched their bubble, the Brexit vote just burst the Better Together one.

Honestly jambo x 2, you're a good poster but you don't come out with some rubbish!!

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Probably shouldn't ask but..........

When do SNP supporters Indy 2 should be called?

Obviously brexit etc, is viewed as a material change. Should it be when brexit is triggered, when we know what the deal looks like, when we are actually out?

I'm interested, not really to debate point, just to understand the perspective.

I always viewed the material change as anything when the polls suggested a victory for yes was likely.

Also a supplementary if it's favour of staying in the U.K., similar to last time. Do you think we should get into the neveredum situation where one is called every 5-20 years until independence achieved.

No idea when a ref will be called, not that I am an SNP supporter.

 

On your supplementary, if we remain in the uk after a second ref, but then, for arguments sake, an increasingly right wing, Trumpesque, govt ruled from Westminster and Scotland got itchy feet, it's surely democratic to have another bash?

 

Given the SNPs dominance in Scottish politics, not to mention the greens, independence as an issue is going to be high on the agenda, assuming that dominance was to remain, of course.

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