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Aberdeen's new stadium...

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GorgieFifeLife

I cant see the new stadium changing anything, they will get the same poor crowds but will be playing in a half empty soulless stadium. 

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Jambo92

Once the novelty factor wares off (probably after season 1 - maybe earlier depending on results) I strongly believe it will be a failure of a move for Aberdeen.  The future trends all point towards people moving into city centres, ditching cars, walking/cycling, micro mobility (electric scooters), is the future.  Aberdeen are not going to build a suitable transport network to reach the stadium, the cost will be prohibitive for the numbers being quoted 10,000 pax every 2 weeks for 3/4 of a year..  A lot of people fall into trap of looking at the bigger clubs building football campus's with incredible stadia and facilities - these will work because they have the budgets/fanbase, they have fans travelling from all over the globe to watch matches but in Scotland sadly we will never have that level support.

 

In a world where there are a growing number of obstacles to stop people from attending the football the last thing you want to do is move your ground to a field 15 miles away.  People are just looking at the wealth of the owners, I don't believe that they are in the position they are to make Aberdeen a better football club, I believe they are there with the main intention of making themselves and their personal businesses wealthier.  

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ToqueJambo
54 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

Once the novelty factor wares off (probably after season 1 - maybe earlier depending on results) I strongly believe it will be a failure of a move for Aberdeen.  The future trends all point towards people moving into city centres, ditching cars, walking/cycling, micro mobility (electric scooters), is the future.  Aberdeen are not going to build a suitable transport network to reach the stadium, the cost will be prohibitive for the numbers being quoted 10,000 pax every 2 weeks for 3/4 of a year..  A lot of people fall into trap of looking at the bigger clubs building football campus's with incredible stadia and facilities - these will work because they have the budgets/fanbase, they have fans travelling from all over the globe to watch matches but in Scotland sadly we will never have that level support.

 

In a world where there are a growing number of obstacles to stop people from attending the football the last thing you want to do is move your ground to a field 15 miles away.  People are just looking at the wealth of the owners, I don't believe that they are in the position they are to make Aberdeen a better football club, I believe they are there with the main intention of making themselves and their personal businesses wealthier.  

 

Spot on. It's a very regressive move, especially as there is no need for it. In the MLS they've built a lot of new stadiums, many - maybe most - in or near the centre of cities and transport links, Minnesota's being the latest. Aberdeen is going against the grain here.

 

The only thing Aberdeen might be gambling on is that a lot of Aberdeen fans don't seem to live in Aberdeen. Maybe their counting on a lot of folk already driving to games anyhow and now it might be easier.

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IveSeenTheLight
6 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

Once the novelty factor wares off (probably after season 1 - maybe earlier depending on results) I strongly believe it will be a failure of a move for Aberdeen.  The future trends all point towards people moving into city centres, ditching cars, walking/cycling, micro mobility (electric scooters), is the future.  Aberdeen are not going to build a suitable transport network to reach the stadium, the cost will be prohibitive for the numbers being quoted 10,000 pax every 2 weeks for 3/4 of a year..  A lot of people fall into trap of looking at the bigger clubs building football campus's with incredible stadia and facilities - these will work because they have the budgets/fanbase, they have fans travelling from all over the globe to watch matches but in Scotland sadly we will never have that level support.

 

In a world where there are a growing number of obstacles to stop people from attending the football the last thing you want to do is move your ground to a field 15 miles away.  People are just looking at the wealth of the owners, I don't believe that they are in the position they are to make Aberdeen a better football club, I believe they are there with the main intention of making themselves and their personal businesses wealthier.  

 

Most of the support come from the shire.

only 8% walk to Pittodrie, the remaining includes various means of transport.

 

Kingsford will be easier to get to than Pittodrie for most fans and is not 15 miles away. It’s 6.2 miles from Union street.

 

There will no doubt be initial traffic problems, but far less than around Pittodrie as it stands.

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Jambo92
14 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Most of the support come from the shire.

only 8% walk to Pittodrie, the remaining includes various means of transport.

 

Kingsford will be easier to get to than Pittodrie for most fans and is not 15 miles away. It’s 6.2 miles from Union street.

 

There will no doubt be initial traffic problems, but far less than around Pittodrie as it stands.

 

Good luck, you're going to need it.

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stan
On 07/06/2019 at 20:00, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Initially I was.

I’m increasingly confident that they will pull this off.

I enjoy your input on this thread as it's good to hear from someone with an emotional stake in this. 

 

However, I don't understand what it is it that gives you confidence in this project. 

 

Your dismissal of the change in plc status status as a paper exercise only and your willingness to buy in to the 'it'll be alright on the night' transport plan does bear a similarity to our own hopeless naivety in assuming any of  Vlad's plans were well worked through.

 

I get the feeling that you'll rationalise every announcement and accept the offered logic rather than scrutinise the arguments and come to a different conclusion.

 

Personally, I don't think the costs and location are in your favour at all. I think Aberdeen will be operating at a lower level rather than kicking on as a result of this project. Milne will see he's doing fine though.

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Icon of Symmetry
1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Most of the support come from the shire.

only 8% walk to Pittodrie, the remaining includes various means of transport.

 

Kingsford will be easier to get to than Pittodrie for most fans and is not 15 miles away. It’s 6.2 miles from Union street.

 

There will no doubt be initial traffic problems, but far less than around Pittodrie as it stands.

 

2E59EA00-34AC-41E7-BD4B-39249C613820.jpeg

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Barack
7 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

2E59EA00-34AC-41E7-BD4B-39249C613820.jpeg

Samwise Cosgrove there.

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ToqueJambo
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Most of the support come from the shire.

only 8% walk to Pittodrie, the remaining includes various means of transport.

 

Kingsford will be easier to get to than Pittodrie for most fans and is not 15 miles away. It’s 6.2 miles from Union street.

 

There will no doubt be initial traffic problems, but far less than around Pittodrie as it stands.

 

tenor.gif?itemid=5571480

 

A stadium with no public transport connection is a terrible idea, especially in this day and age.

 

Assuming people drive by the sounds of it, they'll be in the carpark for ages trying to get out.

Edited by ToqueJambo

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Notts1874

I have no ill will toward our sheep visitor in particular but I hope this white elephant hampers your club for years to come.

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Barack
Just now, Notts1874 said:

I have no ill will toward our sheep visitor in particular but I hope this white sheep hampers your club for years to come.

Was obvious. So I fixed it for you.??

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Notts1874
2 minutes ago, Barack said:

Was obvious. So I fixed it for you.??

I'm glad you're here sometimes to keep me on the straight and narrow.

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Barack
2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm glad you're here sometimes to keep me on the straight and narrow.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men 
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will 
shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness 
for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children 
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
Anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers 
And you will know
My name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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Notts1874
1 minute ago, Barack said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men 
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will 
shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness 
for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children 
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
Anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers 
And you will know
My name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Aye aye shepherds and aw that. Don't overplay your part?. Anyway hope the stadium is shite and costs them a fortune.

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BRY
9 hours ago, Barack said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men 
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will 
shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness 
for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children 
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
Anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers 
And you will know
My name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

 

I assume everyone else read that in Samuel L Jackson's voice...?

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TypoonJambo
33 minutes ago, BRY said:

 

I assume everyone else read that in Samuel L Jackson's voice...?

Not just me then?

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Tazio
34 minutes ago, BRY said:

 

I assume everyone else read that in Samuel L Jackson's voice...?

It’s better if you do it in Reverend Lovejoy’s voice.  

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cheetah

some football clubs should never move to out of town stadiums, I reckon (and hope) the sheep will regret this.

 

Related image

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Fareastjambo

It’s the kingswells/Westhill residents I feel for. Would Stewart Milne like a stadium on his doorstep? Think the answer might be no!  

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sadj
5 hours ago, cheetah said:

some football clubs should never move to out of town stadiums, I reckon (and hope) the sheep will regret this.

 

Related image

State of that pitch ?

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Smithee
5 hours ago, cheetah said:

some football clubs should never move to out of town stadiums, I reckon (and hope) the sheep will regret this.

 

Related image

 

They made a spectacular arse of that! They spent most of their life in the bottom tier with average crowds of less than 5k but built a 25,000 all seater out of town stadium in the early 2000s which led to 3 administrations and a liquidation before reforming as Darlington 1883. They now play at the 3,300 capacity Blackwell Meadows as tenants of Darlington Rugby with most games getting less than 1500 through the gates.

Seriously, spectacular arse!

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dc-jambo
19 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Most of the support come from the shire.

only 8% walk to Pittodrie, the remaining includes various means of transport.

 

Kingsford will be easier to get to than Pittodrie for most fans and is not 15 miles away. It’s 6.2 miles from Union street.

 

There will no doubt be initial traffic problems, but far less than around Pittodrie as it stands.

 

What’s the source of the 8 per cent, and does it tell you how many use public transport/taxis/their own cars? Have always been curious what these numbers are for HMFC, too.

 

I agree with the earlier comment that out-of-town stadia are an idea whose time has passed. But genuinely interested in any data you have.

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, dc-jambo said:

 

What’s the source of the 8 per cent, and does it tell you how many use public transport/taxis/their own cars? Have always been curious what these numbers are for HMFC, too.

 

I agree with the earlier comment that out-of-town stadia are an idea whose time has passed. But genuinely interested in any data you have.

 

It's one of those stats that sounds good til you actually think about it.

It gives the impression that 92% of fans won't be inconvenienced as they don't currently walk to Pittodrie anyway, but what about those who get buses and what have you  from other parts of Aberdeen? I don't know Aberdeen well, but I've seen the buses round Tynecastle on matchday, public transport is hoachin on match day in any city. 

Well those guys now need to get a bus into the centre of town before queuing with hopefully thousands of others for one of the fleet of buses provided at the club's expense. I'd be interested to know what percentage of fans get local public transport to games.

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sac

Must think they have a future.?

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indianajones

Maybe they should redesign the Kingsford arena to look like a Tardis seen as thats where the majority of Aberdeen fans seem to live. 

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kirkierobroy
On 11/06/2019 at 15:20, Jambo92 said:

Once the novelty factor wares off (probably after season 1 - maybe earlier depending on results) I strongly believe it will be a failure of a move for Aberdeen.  The future trends all point towards people moving into city centres, ditching cars, walking/cycling, micro mobility (electric scooters), is the future.  Aberdeen are not going to build a suitable transport network to reach the stadium, the cost will be prohibitive for the numbers being quoted 10,000 pax every 2 weeks for 3/4 of a year..  A lot of people fall into trap of looking at the bigger clubs building football campus's with incredible stadia and facilities - these will work because they have the budgets/fanbase, they have fans travelling from all over the globe to watch matches but in Scotland sadly we will never have that level support.

 

In a world where there are a growing number of obstacles to stop people from attending the football the last thing you want to do is move your ground to a field 15 miles away.  People are just looking at the wealth of the owners, I don't believe that they are in the position they are to make Aberdeen a better football club, I believe they are there with the main intention of making themselves and their personal businesses wealthier.  

 

That's as good a summary of the situation as I've read, even if per our Doric chum some of the mileages are overstated.

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The Gasman
On 29/01/2019 at 14:35, Harry Potter said:

Where are they getting 50 million ?

 

A friend, originally from Edinburgh, worked for many years in finance in the US - he was sent some sort of investment prospectus for this, and it horrified him.

 

He said it was based on wild speculation, hope, and wishful thinking - the figures just didn’t stand up to any scrutiny at all.

 

He’s never had any real interest in Football, so has no axe to grind with Aberdeen, and i’ve no reason to doubt him.

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ToqueJambo
1 hour ago, The Gasman said:

 

A friend, originally from Edinburgh, worked for many years in finance in the US - he was sent some sort of investment prospectus for this, and it horrified him.

 

He said it was based on wild speculation, hope, and wishful thinking - the figures just didn’t stand up to any scrutiny at all.

 

He’s never had any real interest in Football, so has no axe to grind with Aberdeen, and i’ve no reason to doubt him.

 

It's all very Romanov-esque. Except his stadium plans were to cost 50m as well and were met with derision in the press. They were much more realistic and workable than Aberdeen's though as we weren't moving anywhere. There doesn't seem to be a lot of scrutiny of Aberdeen's financing of this.

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Darren
On 11/06/2019 at 13:13, kirkierobroy said:

I said it before on this thread - no team has increased its support after moving to a new bypass/roundabout stadium.

 

I predicted before, and I stand by it, that if they do build it'll have to be scaled down to a MacDiarmid Park with red seats and butteries in the pie stall.

 

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

On 11/06/2019 at 14:21, Sir Gio said:

It wont fail on location. It may well fail on over ambition though.

 

I don't think a new stadium with a smaller capacity than the existing one is particularly ambitious. I also don't understand why having the training facilities next to the ground is seen as so important. 

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Icon of Symmetry
3 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

 

I don't think a new stadium with a smaller capacity than the existing one is particularly ambitious. I also don't understand why having the training facilities next to the ground is seen as so important. 

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

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cheetah
16 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

They made a spectacular arse of that! They spent most of their life in the bottom tier with average crowds of less than 5k but built a 25,000 all seater out of town stadium in the early 2000s which led to 3 administrations and a liquidation before reforming as Darlington 1883. They now play at the 3,300 capacity Blackwell Meadows as tenants of Darlington Rugby with most games getting less than 1500 through the gates.

Seriously, spectacular arse!

 

Yep they made a right pigs ear of it. They ended up in the northern league (tier 5, division 8 kinda thing) playing against Whitley bay (Howay the bay) and the like, brought about 800 fans to every game so was good for the little teams. The had to ground share with Bishop Auckland at one point, total shitehouse idea to move to a large out of town soulless arena.

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Darren
2 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

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Smithee
1 minute ago, cheetah said:

 

Yep they made a right pigs ear of it. They ended up in the northern league (tier 5, division 8 kinda thing) playing against Whitley bay (Howay the bay) and the like, brought about 800 fans to every game so was good for the little teams. The had to ground share with Bishop Auckland at one point, total shitehouse idea to move to a large out of town soulless arena.

You obviously have more local knowledge about the situation than me, I only know what I've read, but it seems mental that a club can sleepwalk towards such obvious trouble.

These are the dangers of well meaning owners who misjudge situations - I know Darlington's an extreme example but things like this are why I get nervous that our stand's now costing the thick end of 20 million with no one telling us how it's being paid for.

 

I'd really love to see this Aberdeen investor pack by the way!

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cheetah
3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You obviously have more local knowledge about the situation than me, I only know what I've read, but it seems mental that a club can sleepwalk towards such obvious trouble.

These are the dangers of well meaning owners who misjudge situations - I know Darlington's an extreme example but things like this are why I get nervous that our stand's now costing the thick end of 20 million with no one telling us how it's being paid for.

 

I'd really love to see this Aberdeen investor pack by the way!

 

 

Yeah Darlo is an extreme example but it could easily happen to anyone. 20M for our stand is a worry but imagine how out of hand their 50M project might get? Could easily work out for them but could also easily go tits up and put them right in the shit.

 

I won't shed a tear for them either if it happens. 

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grumpyespana

Mind you Darlingtons old ground was falling to bits but was the owner not a bit of a crook.

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Icon of Symmetry
1 hour ago, Darren said:

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

 

No, I suppose not, but it’s relevant. The figures involved in Aberdeen’s plan are eye-watering, before you take in to account the potential for budgets over running. St Johnstone were debt free with a nice new stadium in a small city where it wasn’t difficult to get to the stadium. They were then able to invest in the team and work their way up the league. Similar sized clubs like Partick and Falkirk put themselves in dire straits trying to build stadia, and some are still toiling as a result. I can see Aberdeen struggling financially, and possibly even becoming tenants in the new stadium. I think that could cause the team to struggle, and the crowds to plummet. Against that sort of a backdrop, suddenly the extra effort required to get to an out of town stadium can seem quite the chore. 

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kirkierobroy
1 hour ago, Darren said:

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

 

Their progress through the leagues probably had most to do with their modestly increasing crowds - St J were terrible in the mid-80s. Inverness CT are similar; crowds a bit better since they reached tiers1/2, rather than attributable to a rather crappy new stadium.

 

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dc-jambo
4 minutes ago, kirkierobroy said:

 

 

Their progress through the leagues probably had most to do with their modestly increasing crowds - St J were terrible in the mid-80s. Inverness CT are similar; crowds a bit better since they reached tiers1/2, rather than attributable to a rather crappy new stadium.

 

 

I take issue with the last bit - surely it’s the best 10000-capacity ground in Scotland? And almost ideal for their needs? 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

Their new stadium was named after the farmer who gifted them the ground it is built on. That was the story as far as I remember. 

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Icon of Symmetry
4 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

Their new stadium was named after the farmer who gifted them the ground it is built on. That was the story as far as I remember. 

 

Yep. Tesco paid them for the old land. McDiarmid gave them the new land for nowt. I think the cost of the stadium build was covered too. 

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Inch Hearts
29 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

No, I suppose not, but it’s relevant. The figures involved in Aberdeen’s plan are eye-watering, before you take in to account the potential for budgets over running. St Johnstone were debt free with a nice new stadium in a small city where it wasn’t difficult to get to the stadium. They were then able to invest in the team and work their way up the league. Similar sized clubs like Partick and Falkirk put themselves in dire straits trying to build stadia, and some are still toiling as a result. I can see Aberdeen struggling financially, and possibly even becoming tenants in the new stadium. I think that could cause the team to struggle, and the crowds to plummet. Against that sort of a backdrop, suddenly the extra effort required to get to an out of town stadium can seem quite the chore. 

 

The question answered “name on club who’s attendances improved on moving” the answer was St Johnstone followed with an “aye, but”

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Mikey1874
2 hours ago, Darren said:

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

 

St Johnstone crowds went up? What are you comparing? Initial high crowds or an average?

 

Last season higher than say 1974/75?

 

They also had severe crowd restrictions on Muirton Park latterly so some care is needed in comparisons. 

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Darren
18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

St Johnstone crowds went up? What are you comparing? Initial high crowds or an average?

 

Last season higher than say 1974/75?

 

They also had severe crowd restrictions on Muirton Park latterly so some care is needed in comparisons. 

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

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Harry Potter
6 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

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Mikey1874
13 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

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Inch Hearts
10 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

 

Every club had much bigger attendances back then.  You can’t surely go back to the 60s & 70s to prove a point ffs. 

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Inch Hearts
11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

 

I can’t see many of their core fanbase walking away regardless. They will always have about 9-10k who will go regardless of moving and the rest depends on how well they are doing.    

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Mikey1874
5 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

I can’t see many of their core fanbase walking away regardless. They will always have about 9-10k who will go regardless of moving and the rest depends on how well they are doing.    

 

It is a good question what each club's 'break even' crowd is. St Johnstone's seems to be around 3,000. Aberdeen? 

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Harry Potter
22 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Every club had much bigger attendances back then.  You can’t surely go back to the 60s & 70s to prove a point ffs. 

I had no intentions of proving a point , just thought i would put up a few stats for the debate.

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Darren
41 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

 

But those are one-off games.

 

40 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

 

My point was St Johnstone's move doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

 

To clarify, I think Aberdeen's will be a disaster.

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