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Aberdeen's new stadium...


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On 11/06/2019 at 13:13, kirkierobroy said:

I said it before on this thread - no team has increased its support after moving to a new bypass/roundabout stadium.

 

I predicted before, and I stand by it, that if they do build it'll have to be scaled down to a MacDiarmid Park with red seats and butteries in the pie stall.

 

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

On 11/06/2019 at 14:21, Sir Gio said:

It wont fail on location. It may well fail on over ambition though.

 

I don't think a new stadium with a smaller capacity than the existing one is particularly ambitious. I also don't understand why having the training facilities next to the ground is seen as so important. 

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3 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

 

I don't think a new stadium with a smaller capacity than the existing one is particularly ambitious. I also don't understand why having the training facilities next to the ground is seen as so important. 

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

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16 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

They made a spectacular arse of that! They spent most of their life in the bottom tier with average crowds of less than 5k but built a 25,000 all seater out of town stadium in the early 2000s which led to 3 administrations and a liquidation before reforming as Darlington 1883. They now play at the 3,300 capacity Blackwell Meadows as tenants of Darlington Rugby with most games getting less than 1500 through the gates.

Seriously, spectacular arse!

 

Yep they made a right pigs ear of it. They ended up in the northern league (tier 5, division 8 kinda thing) playing against Whitley bay (Howay the bay) and the like, brought about 800 fans to every game so was good for the little teams. The had to ground share with Bishop Auckland at one point, total shitehouse idea to move to a large out of town soulless arena.

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2 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

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1 minute ago, cheetah said:

 

Yep they made a right pigs ear of it. They ended up in the northern league (tier 5, division 8 kinda thing) playing against Whitley bay (Howay the bay) and the like, brought about 800 fans to every game so was good for the little teams. The had to ground share with Bishop Auckland at one point, total shitehouse idea to move to a large out of town soulless arena.

You obviously have more local knowledge about the situation than me, I only know what I've read, but it seems mental that a club can sleepwalk towards such obvious trouble.

These are the dangers of well meaning owners who misjudge situations - I know Darlington's an extreme example but things like this are why I get nervous that our stand's now costing the thick end of 20 million with no one telling us how it's being paid for.

 

I'd really love to see this Aberdeen investor pack by the way!

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3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You obviously have more local knowledge about the situation than me, I only know what I've read, but it seems mental that a club can sleepwalk towards such obvious trouble.

These are the dangers of well meaning owners who misjudge situations - I know Darlington's an extreme example but things like this are why I get nervous that our stand's now costing the thick end of 20 million with no one telling us how it's being paid for.

 

I'd really love to see this Aberdeen investor pack by the way!

 

 

Yeah Darlo is an extreme example but it could easily happen to anyone. 20M for our stand is a worry but imagine how out of hand their 50M project might get? Could easily work out for them but could also easily go tits up and put them right in the shit.

 

I won't shed a tear for them either if it happens. 

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grumpyespana

Mind you Darlingtons old ground was falling to bits but was the owner not a bit of a crook.

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1 hour ago, Darren said:

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

 

No, I suppose not, but it’s relevant. The figures involved in Aberdeen’s plan are eye-watering, before you take in to account the potential for budgets over running. St Johnstone were debt free with a nice new stadium in a small city where it wasn’t difficult to get to the stadium. They were then able to invest in the team and work their way up the league. Similar sized clubs like Partick and Falkirk put themselves in dire straits trying to build stadia, and some are still toiling as a result. I can see Aberdeen struggling financially, and possibly even becoming tenants in the new stadium. I think that could cause the team to struggle, and the crowds to plummet. Against that sort of a backdrop, suddenly the extra effort required to get to an out of town stadium can seem quite the chore. 

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kirkierobroy
1 hour ago, Darren said:

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

 

Their progress through the leagues probably had most to do with their modestly increasing crowds - St J were terrible in the mid-80s. Inverness CT are similar; crowds a bit better since they reached tiers1/2, rather than attributable to a rather crappy new stadium.

 

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4 minutes ago, kirkierobroy said:

 

 

Their progress through the leagues probably had most to do with their modestly increasing crowds - St J were terrible in the mid-80s. Inverness CT are similar; crowds a bit better since they reached tiers1/2, rather than attributable to a rather crappy new stadium.

 

 

I take issue with the last bit - surely it’s the best 10000-capacity ground in Scotland? And almost ideal for their needs? 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

St Johnstone had the stadium built for them and everything completed without any debts.

Their new stadium was named after the farmer who gifted them the ground it is built on. That was the story as far as I remember. 

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4 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

Their new stadium was named after the farmer who gifted them the ground it is built on. That was the story as far as I remember. 

 

Yep. Tesco paid them for the old land. McDiarmid gave them the new land for nowt. I think the cost of the stadium build was covered too. 

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Inch Hearts
29 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

No, I suppose not, but it’s relevant. The figures involved in Aberdeen’s plan are eye-watering, before you take in to account the potential for budgets over running. St Johnstone were debt free with a nice new stadium in a small city where it wasn’t difficult to get to the stadium. They were then able to invest in the team and work their way up the league. Similar sized clubs like Partick and Falkirk put themselves in dire straits trying to build stadia, and some are still toiling as a result. I can see Aberdeen struggling financially, and possibly even becoming tenants in the new stadium. I think that could cause the team to struggle, and the crowds to plummet. Against that sort of a backdrop, suddenly the extra effort required to get to an out of town stadium can seem quite the chore. 

 

The question answered “name on club who’s attendances improved on moving” the answer was St Johnstone followed with an “aye, but”

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2 hours ago, Darren said:

 

That's not the point I was addressing.

 

St Johnstone crowds went up? What are you comparing? Initial high crowds or an average?

 

Last season higher than say 1974/75?

 

They also had severe crowd restrictions on Muirton Park latterly so some care is needed in comparisons. 

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18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

St Johnstone crowds went up? What are you comparing? Initial high crowds or an average?

 

Last season higher than say 1974/75?

 

They also had severe crowd restrictions on Muirton Park latterly so some care is needed in comparisons. 

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

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Harry Potter
6 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

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13 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

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Inch Hearts
10 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

 

Every club had much bigger attendances back then.  You can’t surely go back to the 60s & 70s to prove a point ffs. 

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Inch Hearts
11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

 

I can’t see many of their core fanbase walking away regardless. They will always have about 9-10k who will go regardless of moving and the rest depends on how well they are doing.    

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5 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

I can’t see many of their core fanbase walking away regardless. They will always have about 9-10k who will go regardless of moving and the rest depends on how well they are doing.    

 

It is a good question what each club's 'break even' crowd is. St Johnstone's seems to be around 3,000. Aberdeen? 

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Harry Potter
22 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Every club had much bigger attendances back then.  You can’t surely go back to the 60s & 70s to prove a point ffs. 

I had no intentions of proving a point , just thought i would put up a few stats for the debate.

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41 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Heres some Nov 4th 1961 Home to Hearts  10300.2-0 Hearts.

 

Oct 5th 1963  home to hearts 12000  3-3.

 

Nov 25th 1967  Hearts, 9000,  1-1.

 

29TH AUG 1970  Hearts , 11000 Hearts lost 3 -1

  

Sept 2nd 1972  Hearts 8000 hearts win 1-0.

 

But those are one-off games.

 

40 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They had a short term boost with very good crowds initially. Actually there was some discussion before the build as to whether 10,000 was big enough. But crowds are lower now and fans say the location is part of the problem though it might not be. 

 

So maybe the excitement and other things Aberdeen do will be a boost to crowds. Sustaining it will be the challenge. 

 

My point was St Johnstone's move doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

 

To clarify, I think Aberdeen's will be a disaster.

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David McCaig
1 hour ago, dc-jambo said:

 

I take issue with the last bit - surely it’s the best 10000-capacity ground in Scotland? And almost ideal for their needs? 

Livingston is a far better stadium.

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2 hours ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

I can’t see many of their core fanbase walking away regardless. They will always have about 9-10k who will go regardless of moving and the rest depends on how well they are doing.    

 

Is Aberdeens core fanbase 9-10k when they are doing poorly? I’d of thought it was lower than that. 

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3 hours ago, Darren said:

 

I'm going by this:

"St Johnstone enjoyed great success when the stadium first opened. The club won promotion to the Premier Division in their first season at McDiarmid. In the first season back in the top flight, the average attendance at McDiarmid was 6,000, approximately three times what it had been at Muirton. These high attendances led the club to create space for another 600 seats, raising the capacity to over 10,700."

 

And last season's average of 4,045.

 

If they had a markedly higher average attendance before 1974/75 then I'm happy to be corrected. 

 

 

A few years ago they wanted to demolish a stand because their crowds were so shit.

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Inch Hearts
45 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

Is Aberdeens core fanbase 9-10k when they are doing poorly? I’d of thought it was lower than that. 

 

Don’t really know as they’ve been doing well for a good few years, would a lot of them walk away if they went bottom 6? 

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16 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Don’t really know as they’ve been doing well for a good few years, would a lot of them walk away if they went bottom 6? 

 

Someone will have the stats always felt like crowds were poor when they were. Even with a good team , were they not only getting circa 18k v Celtic / Rangers etc 

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I see Ryan Fraser has said he will probably run his contract down at Bournemouth meaning there will be no sell on fee for the Dandies.  Will be a blow to the new stadium budget.

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Watt-Zeefuik
59 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

Someone will have the stats always felt like crowds were poor when they were. Even with a good team , were they not only getting circa 18k v Celtic / Rangers etc 

 

Looking at their home matches in the second half of the season, they got 14+ against St. Mirren and Kilmarnock in January and February, 14k+ to Livi in March, then dropped off a bit to 13k or so for matches against Motherwell in the spring. 19k against Rangers in the middle of winter but then 15k to Celtic late in the season.

 

Back up to 2013, though, when they finished 8th, they only had 7k at a winter match against Hibs.

 

I spent a while several years ago looking over Hearts' attendances up and down, and my impression is that if you have a period of sustained success, you lose some in the next trough but clearly a lot of folks get the bug and come back. I don't think Pittodrie has Tynecastle's magic to enchant people, but I would still expect, say, if their form went in the ditch next season, they would still be pulling 10k to those winter matches against wee teams.

 

I strongly dislike out of town stadia and I think leaving the North Sea coast behind loses some of the charm for Aberdeen, but that's said from a nice warm armchair, and I don't know if I lived there if I'd want to go to a February match with the wind whipping off the water.

 

Of any of the teams in Scotland to have a bit of ambition, it's them and us and Hibs that can have any real belief in the possibility of a financial return. (Maybe Partick too, but they have a much bigger hill to climb to get there.) If nothing else, the bigger stadium will pay off nicely if they manage a EL group stage. They've certainly seen to the footballing side of things well in the last 5 years or so.

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1 hour ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Don’t really know as they’ve been doing well for a good few years, would a lot of them walk away if they went bottom 6? 

 

Ask @Gorillajam, he knows loads about AFC. ?

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
8 hours ago, Darren said:

 

St Johnstone are a good example of a club whose support has increases since moving stadium.

 

 

I don't think a new stadium with a smaller capacity than the existing one is particularly ambitious. I also don't understand why having the training facilities next to the ground is seen as so important. 

Apparently we would have done the same if possible. Cheaper apparently,  easier for logistics 

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kirkierobroy
On 13/06/2019 at 11:05, dc-jambo said:

I take issue with the last bit - surely it’s the best 10000-capacity ground in Scotland? And almost ideal for their needs? 

 

I meant that ICT's was crappy, not St J's. I've had a season ticket for ICT so I can speak with confidence.

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19 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Apparently we would have done the same if possible. Cheaper apparently,  easier for logistics 

 

Who would have done that if possible? 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Who would have done that if possible? 

Ann Budge and Hearts, we :lol:

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2 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Ann Budge and Hearts, we :lol:

 

Not how I remember it. I remember her being interviewed and saying that before she took the reins - and was just a supporter, in her mind the best option was to relocate. Then when she became our owner, she quickly realised that that was the wrong idea.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
15 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Not how I remember it. I remember her being interviewed and saying that before she took the reins - and was just a supporter, in her mind the best option was to relocate. Then when she became our owner, she quickly realised that that was the wrong idea.

She wrote a letter to this effect in support of the Aberdeen bid, unless she was telling lies.

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1 minute ago, Sir Gio said:

She wrote a letter to this effect in support of the Aberdeen bid, unless she was telling lies.

 

Don’t recall that. Can you link me? Or just paraphrase so I can google it. ?

 

I remember her saying that as a fan she thought it was so obvious that we needed to build a new stadium somewhere else, but when she became owner/custodian she very quickly learned that staying in our spiritual home was the only way to go, because of the strength of feeling from the fans.

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Inch Hearts

Budge supported council-location with the training ground and mentioned how his advantaged we are for not being able to do so. 

Edited by Inch Hearts
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Lord Beni of Gorgie
5 hours ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Don’t recall that. Can you link me? Or just paraphrase so I can google it. ?

 

I remember her saying that as a fan she thought it was so obvious that we needed to build a new stadium somewhere else, but when she became owner/custodian she very quickly learned that staying in our spiritual home was the only way to go, because of the strength of feeling from the fans.

Nah. If you trawl through Aberdeen planning application you will find our letter of support along with other clubs who supported their bid

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2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Nah. If you trawl through Aberdeen planning application you will find our letter of support along with other clubs who supported their bid

 

Cheers. We might be at cross-wires here though. I am talking about us preferring to relocate, but logistics preventing it. I don’t think that’s right.

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FarmerTweedy
On 13/06/2019 at 16:44, Jambo92 said:

I see Ryan Fraser has said he will probably run his contract down at Bournemouth meaning there will be no sell on fee for the Dandies.  Will be a blow to the new stadium budget.

Going off topic but I always find it somewhat amusing when every time there's some talk about us potentially selling someone, there's always folk on jkb banging on about how we must insist on a sell-on clause, despite the facts that a) the buying club is almost certain to insist on a lower fee at the outset in return for agreeing to a sell-on clause;  and b) there are a multitude of reasons why a sell-on clause could end up being worth the square root of sod all!

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
8 hours ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Cheers. We might be at cross-wires here though. I am talking about us preferring to relocate, but logistics preventing it. I don’t think that’s right.

No not relocating. The letter was in support of having all facilities including training on one site. Perhaps if the school site was acquired?

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19 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

No not relocating. The letter was in support of having all facilities including training on one site. Perhaps if the school site was acquired?

 

Ah, okay. Glad we never did that. Must have been when we were in administration and needed to renegotiate our deal with HWU. ?

 

The Oriam is about 15 minutes drive from Tynecastle, so it’s pretty handy, and it’s really close to Balerno High School where we have youth links now.

 

Good job whoever was more concerned about having everything on the same site never got their way, imo. Our set up is first rate, and I’d not want to change that for the sake of having our training centre on-site.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
34 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Ah, okay. Glad we never did that. Must have been when we were in administration and needed to renegotiate our deal with HWU. ?

 

The Oriam is about 15 minutes drive from Tynecastle, so it’s pretty handy, and it’s really close to Balerno High School where we have youth links now.

 

Good job whoever was more concerned about having everything on the same site never got their way, imo. Our set up is first rate, and I’d not want to change that for the sake of having our training centre on-site.

Think it was hypothetical from our point of view. We never thought about leaving our house 

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Nookie Bear

Sure it’s quite common for teams to train miles away from their stadiums. 

 

How far is Melwood (?) from Anfield Rd? I’m certain Spurs train outside London as well. 

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On 13/06/2019 at 15:44, Jambo92 said:

I see Ryan Fraser has said he will probably run his contract down at Bournemouth meaning there will be no sell on fee for the Dandies.  Will be a blow to the new stadium budget.

 

Don’t they have some sort of multi-millionaire benefactor?

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  • 1 month later...

How's this coming along then? Have they broken ground yet?

 

https://www.kingsfordstadium.co.uk/timeline/

 

2017

 

8 September 2017 – Meeting hosted by Soul Bar, Aberdeen in support of the stadium at Soul Bar – meeting starts 5.30pm

11 September 2017 – Kingswells Community Council meeting, 7pm – 9pm at Adventure Aberdeen Fairley Road, Westhill, Aberdeen

13 September 2017 – Pre-determination hearing will take place at Aberdeen City Council.

17 September 2017 – Westhill and Kingswells For Kingsford Update meeting, Holiday Inn, Westhill, 6pm to 8pm.

11 October 2017 – Full Council meeting to decide stadium planning application.

12 December 2017 – Closing date for responses to further consultation.

2018

17 January 2018 – Pre-determination hearing will take place at Aberdeen City Council, 9.30am at Aberdeen City Council;

29 January 2018 – Full Council meeting to decide stadium planning application, 10.30am at Aberdeen City Council;

18 April 2018 – Council agree legal agreement to allow construction of training complex and stadium to begin;

June 2018 – Work to commence construction of training complex due to begin;

2019

June 2019 – opening of new training complex;

2020-21

The 20,000 capacity stadium would be expected to be completed by the start of the 2020-21 season.

 

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7 minutes ago, Barack said:

Those 9.5k season ticket holders must be desperate to get in, and find a spare seat.👍🏻

 

:lol:

 

I noticed some photos of them building the training facility back in April. What's the state of play here @IveSeenTheLight I'm guessing the timeline has been revised and the training facility isn't open yet?

Seeing as how the work has started, then I'm guessing some money has already changed hands to pay for construction. Is someone paying for this up front, and are Aberdeen FC going to pay them back from the sale of Pittodrie?

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5 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

:lol:

 

I noticed some photos of them building the training facility back in April. What's the state of play here , I'm guessing the timeline has been revised and the training facility isn't open yet?

Seeing as how the work has started, then I'm guessing some money has already changed hands to pay for construction. Is someone paying for this up front, and are Aberdeen FC going to pay them back from the sale of Pittodrie?

The training facility is most definitely not open yet. They have foundations down or did when I drove past a few weeks ago not sure if they have moved on @Sir Gio will give you a better balanced position on where its at than the weirdie sheep boy. He has to see it more often than me. 

 

I suppose it might be open and they have just been training on earth etc taking a leaf out of Hibs book on training facilities

Edited by sadj
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Lord Beni of Gorgie
3 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

:lol:

 

I noticed some photos of them building the training facility back in April. What's the state of play here @IveSeenTheLight I'm guessing the timeline has been revised and the training facility isn't open yet?

Seeing as how the work has started, then I'm guessing some money has already changed hands to pay for construction. Is someone paying for this up front, and are Aberdeen FC going to pay them back from the sale of Pittodrie?

My colleague said October. Coming on now, far more of a shape,  pitches seeded, floodlights up. 3 months late I was told 

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