Brexit?

[Space Mackerel]

No, I am not suggesting an economic or political union with China.

 

But within a United Kingdom, the nation with the largest numbers of voters will on matters which are not devolved have the largest say. It's called democracy.

 

I think the Scots understood that when they rejected independence.

Do you think they'll reject it a second time though?

I know a few die hard No's that are planning to swap sides now including their kids.

 

 

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[jake]

Which one of the 67 reasons were you? [emoji2]

 

http://rainbowsandlollipops.net/why-did-the-uk-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

 

 

 

 

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Thats the kind of snooty look down their nose list compiled by upper middle class pretendy socialists.

And full of absolute shite.

Ive read some keek from the guardian left.

The contempt they show for us brainless plebs is worse than any torie.

And for what.

To continue with an organisation corrupt to the core.

To continue with mass youth unemployment southern europe.

The list is endless.

 

Then you come on posting that somehow they deserve it because they are not as well behaved as the rest of us.

 

Not playing by the rules.

 

What a little tartan torie you've shown yourself to be.

[jake]

Any chance of telling us when the NHS gets the extra ?350 million a week please?

 

Maybe you could grab a quote of Mrs May?

 

Take your time.

 

 

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We are still paying it for the tenth time.

When we stop paying it then you can ask the relevant parties up for election what they will spend the money on.

And vote accordingly.

[Francis Albert]

Do you think they'll reject it a second time though?

I know a few die hard No's that are planning to swap sides now including their kids.

 

 

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Yes. And I think Sturgeon does too. Which means despite the rhetoric there will be no rush to hold a send Indy Ref.

[Yoda]

Do you think they'll reject it a second time though?

I know a few die hard No's that are planning to swap sides now including their kids.

 

 

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[Don Draper]

 

You're by miles the most disappointing person on this thread and in this area on kickback. Space Mackerel, aussieh and the rest don't have a brain and don't know better, but you should.

 

What a patronising ****** you are, Gorgiewave.

[JamboX2]

I wonder what the 40% or more of a whole generation or more of young people in Southern Europe who face long term unemployment feel about "workers rights".

 

I am always puzzled by the fact that all these Europhiles never have a word to say about them. No demonstrations in support of the victims of German-imposed austerity.

 

Just about their own future being supposedly ruined by Brexit.

I agreed with Varafoukis when he was Greek finance minister, debt relief to preserve the Greek economy or leave the euro. Tsipras collapsed on the latter.

 

Fact is, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy all need debt rekief like Germany got at the end of World War Two.

 

Whilst not their faults they live with the mistakes of their elders by electing a poor class of politicians o tell them ehat they wanted not what was right for Greece. We, in Scotland and the UK, are living through a similar period of juvenile politics with politicians playing easy cards on their voters.

 

Brexit will be bad and chaotic anyway you conceive it. How it can be good s beyond me. Cost of living up, pound down and the UK is lurching towards constitutional crisis. Aye, Brexit is proving to be a barrell of laughs.

[JamboX2]

Those pesky ignorant racist belgians .

How dare they vote against the wonderful EU.

Not what's happened. If anything, it's how democratic the EU is proving to be.

[JamboX2]

It's rather that it is evidence of the consociational democracy that is Belgium.

 

It isn't about Wallonia holding the EU to ransom, or indeed of a disfunctional EU.

 

Rather it highlights how one member state operates and how it ratifies decision making at an international level.

 

It also highlights how one member of the EU can actually say "Non", because all we have ever been fed about the EU is that it is a "diktat from Brussels". Or that we have to do what Brussels says. This is an example of democracy in action!

 

Perhaps if we had governments that were willing to engage properly with Europe we would have the ability to either shape the argument to how what we would percieve as the best interests of the EU, but also able to set the agenda in the first place.

We did till Cameron got his Tory majority.

[JamboX2]

You are missing the point that it is the will of the independent nation to become part of that union! If the State sees it as being in it and its populations interest to be part of the EU then where is the issue?

 

Compared to what Scotland has now, apparently one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world, plucky little Wallonia, via Belgium, seems to wield far more than we can shake a stick at!

 

So exiting from a single market of 500 million is a good thing? Ok then, but I disagree.

 

What you appear to be doing is drawing a similairty between Scotland and the UK union, and how Scotland would be in the EU, yet you would appear to be comparing apples and oranges, imo.

 

So no, I don't see it as a contradiction.

Arguably you are arbitrarily comparing the powers of Scotland and Wallonia within different types of union. Belgium is much more federal than the UK and the history getting to here is vastly different.

 

Nobody is independent in the globalised world. Therefore unions of nations make sense. A union of European states is good as is one of British nations. How they work is a different question entirely.

 

If Scotland joins the EU post-independence then an important trade off is made, i.e. the UK market which is more valuable to us is closed off as free trade or one with the EU.

 

As it stands, the EU is immeasurably better to be in than out. But it's things like CETA and TTIP which make folk hate it. Granting componies rights to sue nation states is mad and a corporate ower grabe.

[Gorgiewave]

Just out of interest am i one of the rest without a brain ?

No, it's rather obvious you're not. 

[JamboX2]

I pay all my taxes in this country as do the vast majority of normal working people.

I take it you referring to these companies and businessmen/women who have close and personal ties to the current incumbents in No 10?

 

 

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Do you not think oil firms, banks and the likes of Tom Farmer and Soutter or Ian Wood would be hanging about Scottish Ministers looking for handouts and tax grabs of independent? They most certainly would.

[Francis Albert]

I agreed with Varafoukis when he was Greek finance minister, debt relief to preserve the Greek economy or leave the euro. Tsipras collapsed on the latter.

 

Fact is, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy all need debt rekief like Germany got at the end of World War Two.

 

Whilst not their faults they live with the mistakes of their elders by electing a poor class of politicians o tell them ehat they wanted not what was right for Greece. We, in Scotland and the UK, are living through a similar period of juvenile politics with politicians playing easy cards on their voters.

 

Brexit will be bad and chaotic anyway you conceive it. How it can be good s beyond me. Cost of living up, pound down and the UK is lurching towards constitutional crisis. Aye, Brexit is proving to be a barrell of laughs.

What is the evidence that we are "lurching towards a constitutional crisis"?

[Gorgiewave]

What a patronising ****** you are, Gorgiewave.

 

I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system; the universe is indifferent.

[JamboX2]

What is the evidence that we are "lurching towards a constitutional crisis"?

A proposed independence referendum in Scotland and nothing but platitudes over the peace process in Northern Ireland which is heavily reliant on EU subsidy and EU open borders to ROI is certainly worrying.

[Boris]

Arguably you are arbitrarily comparing the powers of Scotland and Wallonia within different types of union. Belgium is much more federal than the UK and the history getting to here is vastly different.

 

Nobody is independent in the globalised world. Therefore unions of nations make sense. A union of European states is good as is one of British nations. How they work is a different question entirely.

 

If Scotland joins the EU post-independence then an important trade off is made, i.e. the UK market which is more valuable to us is closed off as free trade or one with the EU.

 

As it stands, the EU is immeasurably better to be in than out. But it's things like CETA and TTIP which make folk hate it. Granting componies rights to sue nation states is mad and a corporate ower grabe.

 

Perhaps contrasting is a better word than comparing, vis a vis the Belgian and UK experiences?

 

But let us imagine Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU.  We are currently being told that post Brexit the UK will still trade with the EU.  So if Scotland does join the EU, we will still trade with the UK?

 

Alternatively, we remain in the UK, post Brexit leads to ttariffs etc with RoW until trade deals done.  Wouldn't that be the same situation in repsect of Scotland rUk if Scotland were independent?  Still need to seek out new deals etc?

 

Agree with you regards CETA and TTIP.  I suspect a post brexit UK govt would lap them up!

[JamboX2]

Perhaps contrasting is a better word than comparing, vis a vis the Belgian and UK experiences?

 

But let us imagine Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU. We are currently being told that post Brexit the UK will still trade with the EU. So if Scotland does join the EU, we will still trade with the UK?

 

Alternatively, we remain in the UK, post Brexit leads to ttariffs etc with RoW until trade deals done. Wouldn't that be the same situation in repsect of Scotland rUk if Scotland were independent? Still need to seek out new deals etc?

 

Agree with you regards CETA and TTIP. I suspect a post brexit UK govt would lap them up!

On the first part that is wholly dependent on a deal between the UK and EU. And that may not allow for free movement as we currently have between the two nations. The CTA existed between the UK and Ireland but there was still a hard border of checks. If the immigration issue is set to become of greater importance to the rUK then an open border with EU neighbours isn't something they'll be happy with long term.

 

As for your second point, totally agree. I think we need to wait to see how Brexit negotiations are led and where they go to. I actually till think Davies abd Fox will need to swallow single market access.

[Space Mackerel]

Do you not think oil firms, banks and the likes of Tom Farmer and Soutter or Ian Wood would be hanging about Scottish Ministers looking for handouts and tax grabs of independent? They most certainly would.

Do you not think economic and political decisions should be made that are more relevant to the needs and aspirations of the Scottish populace rather than the London bubble and the South East?

 

 

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[Boris]

 I actually till think Davies abd Fox will need to swallow single market access.

 

I read yesterday that the Australians have to told us that they cannot enter into trade discussions until Brexit is done, as that would be illegal.

 

Fox hasn't a clue!

 

We need these trade people involved!

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

If Scotland joins the EU post-independence then an important trade off is made, i.e. the UK market which is more valuable to us is closed off as free trade or one with the EU.

 

 

But then Norway did suggest what they are doing might be a good idea for Scotland during the Independence Referendum. (EFTA and EEA but not being a member of the EU itself). Which would allow for a separate trade deal with rUK.

[John Findlay]

Do you think they'll reject it a second time though?

I know a few die hard No's that are planning to swap sides now including their kids.

 

 

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Planning to swop their children. What for?

[reaths17]

Planning to swop their children. What for?

a caravan at holyrood

[Space Mackerel]

a caravan at holyrood

All it's going to take is 1 in10 to swap over

 

You should open a caravan retail company, you'll make a killing.

[Adam Murray]

All it's going to take is 1 in10 to swap over

 

You should open a caravan retail company, you'll make a killing.

 

 

Do you not think though, that those who switched to yes in the final few months pre indy 2014, in the wake of the forecast of doom and gloom post Brexit, may well change their minds toward more upheaval and separation?

[By The Light..]

The EU is screwed and without us they'll be screwed quicker

 

We're better on a lifeboat than the titanic.

[niblick1874]

It looks like the CETA is a go now so here is what we're getting.

 

http://waronwant.org/what-ceta

 

And still people can't see the wood for the trees. People going on and on and on about politics meanwhile others have made it a sideshow. They are laughing at you while taking away your rights and robbing you blind.    

[jake]

The EU is screwed and without us they'll be screwed quicker

 

We're better on a lifeboat than the titanic.

 

In a nutshell

[jake]

It looks like the CETA is a go now so here is what we're getting.

 

http://waronwant.org/what-ceta

 

And still people can't see the wood for the trees. People going on and on and on about politics meanwhile others have made it a sideshow. They are laughing at you while taking away your rights and robbing you blind.

 

But no niblick the EU us democratic and a force for the good.

Plus the guardian has told the enlightened that anyone who opposes it are nazi bigot brainless unemployed plebs.

 

 

Yeah im insulted.

 

Glad to be a schemie

Glad to question

Glad to oppose right wing religion

Glad to oppose the cartel

 

 

Bewildered by the social worker wine sipping rich pretendy socialist stink that gets espoused on here against unionist politics but turns it on its head regards scotland because thats the editorial of the guardian.

[Space Mackerel]

Do you not think though, that those who switched to yes in the final few months pre indy 2014, in the wake of the forecast of doom and gloom post Brexit, may well change their minds toward more upheaval and separation?

I think the Brexit argument is a pack of lies.

 

 

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[Boris]

It looks like the CETA is a go now so here is what we're getting.

 

http://waronwant.org/what-ceta

 

And still people can't see the wood for the trees. People going on and on and on about politics meanwhile others have made it a sideshow. They are laughing at you while taking away your rights and robbing you blind.    

 

 

And you don't think our Government full of neo-liberal nutbars wouldn't happily sign off on one of these between the UK and anyone who offers it?

 

But no niblick the EU us democratic and a force for the good.

Plus the guardian has told the enlightened that anyone who opposes it are nazi bigot brainless unemployed plebs.

 

 

Yeah im insulted.

 

Glad to be a schemie

Glad to question

Glad to oppose right wing religion

Glad to oppose the cartel

 

 

Bewildered by the social worker wine sipping rich pretendy socialist stink that gets espoused on here against unionist politics but turns it on its head regards scotland because thats the editorial of the guardian.

 

The EU is democratic, in that any country can VETO it.  Why didn't the UK veto any of it when it was being worked on?

 

No, the Guardian hasn't said that and it certainly hasn't published any editorials in suport of Scoottish independence, but you probably knew that, it just doesn't sit with your world view.

 

"Social worker, wine sipping, rich, pretendy socialist" -

 

I never realised social work was so well paid!

[niblick1874]

And you don't think our Government full of neo-liberal nutbars wouldn't happily sign off on one of these between the UK and anyone who offers it?

 

 

The EU is democratic, in that any country can VETO it.  Why didn't the UK veto any of it when it was being worked on?

 

 

Those that are in the pockets of those that are behind the likes of the CETA, NAFTA, TTIP and the TPP are at the top of every government that you have mentioned here. if you think that the EU is democratic when they are in charge, we are on different planets. They are not there for us and everyone knows that. Why pretend they are? These so called trade agreements are put together and negotiated in secret for **** ****. 

[Boris]

 

Those that are in the pockets of those that are behind the likes of the CETA, NAFTA, TTIP and the TPP are at the top of every government that you have mentioned here. if you think that the EU is democratic when they are in charge, we are on different planets. They are not there for us and everyone knows that. Why pretend they are? These so called trade agreements are put together and negotiated in secret for **** ****. 

 

 

Democratic in that there is the option to veto.

 

I don't disagree with what you say regards TTIP etc, but then why argue specifically against the EU when, as you say, every govt is the same?

 

Only a socialist revolution will help you out!

[jake]

And you don't think our Government full of neo-liberal nutbars wouldn't happily sign off on one of these between the UK and anyone who offers it?

 

 

The EU is democratic, in that any country can VETO it. Why didn't the UK veto any of it when it was being worked on?

 

No, the Guardian hasn't said that and it certainly hasn't published any editorials in suport of Scoottish independence, but you probably knew that, it just doesn't sit with your world view.

 

"Social worker, wine sipping, rich, pretendy socialist" -

 

I never realised social work was so well paid!

 

Aye well i have been known to go off on one at times boris.

[Adam Murray]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/27/belgium-reaches-deal-with-wallonia-over-eu-canada-trade-agreement

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37814884

 

Wallonia get some of the safeguards they requested, and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is on his way to sign the trade deal with the EU.

[jack D and coke]

You're just not allowed to vote against the EU are you?

[Adam Murray]

So what does this Canadian agreement mean then, is this them signing up for preferential treatment to the Single Market without accepting the free movement of people, surely if this is the case then that is good for the UK?

 

It did take seven years though.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37814884

[Mister T]

All it's going to take is 1 in10 to swap over

 

You should open a caravan retail company, you'll make a killing.

I thought jelly pans were the future. Make your mind up.

[Cade]

So what does this Canadian agreement mean then, is this them signing up for preferential treatment to the Single Market without accepting the free movement of people, surely if this is the case then that is good for the UK?

 

It did take seven years though.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37814884

No, Canada has agreed to remove all visa restrictions on all EU citizens.

They already had no visa restrictions with most EU nations but have now also agreed for eastern europeans to be able to travel visa-free.

 

So yes, Canada has signed up to free movement of people in exchange for free movement of capital.

[Space Mackerel]

I thought jelly pans were the future. Make your mind up.

Hugo Rifkind of all people and Ewan McGregor now pro independence.

 

Clearly making jam all day doesn't appeal to them amongst most now.

 

 

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[Francis Albert]

No, Canada has agreed to remove all visa restrictions on all EU citizens.

They already had no visa restrictions with most EU nations but have now also agreed for eastern europeans to be able to travel visa-free.

 

So yes, Canada has signed up to free movement of people in exchange for free movement of capital.

Free movement of people is not the same as lack of visa restrictions. Can Europeans freely move to Canada and live or vice versa? Of course not, but that is what free movement of peoples means in an EU context.

 

I can travel many places without a visa, including the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong. It doesn't mean I can set up home there and live there indefinitely.

 

The interesting thing is that the EU is clearly prepared to accept free trade without in their terms "free movement of peoples". In the case of the Canada deal it is free trade in goods not in services. But it makes a nonsense of the assertion that an open market necessarily requires free movement of peoples.

[jake]

Hurrah yay free movement of people.

 

Never mind the fact that it allows private companies to sue governments if their policies or regulations harm profit.

 

This freedom of movement is paraded like some kind of golden policy.

[jake]

And sue them at taxpayers expense.

[Francis Albert]

Hurrah yay free movement of people.

 

Never mind the fact that it allows private companies to sue governments if their policies or regulations harm profit.

 

This freedom of movement is paraded like some kind of golden policy.

Yes you wonder why "free movement of peoples" hasn't led to the mass unemployed youth of Southern Europe moving to Germany and equalising German and Greek or Spanish wages. The fact is there are (apart from inconvenient and economically inefficient family ties) massive obstacles to free movement. Not least being "workers rights" which mean to work in a German car factory you have to have a union card. The UK has been in practice far more receptive to free movement of peoples than most of Europe.

[jake]

Yes you wonder why "free movement of peoples" hasn't led to the mass unemployed youth of Southern Europe moving to Germany and equalising German and Greek or Spanish wages. The fact is there are (apart from inconvenient and economically inefficient family ties) massive obstacles to free movement. Not least being "workers rights" which mean to work in a German car factory you have to have a union card. The UK has been in practice far more receptive to free movement of peoples than most of Europe.

 

Its some price to pay.

Hope you all realise whats happened and happening under similar trade agreements .

Examples of big business controlling society and not governments.

Us petro chemical companies successfully sued the canadian government for lowering carcinogens in petrol.

 

Theres lots of examples.

 

Its only now that the deal has been done that full detail is public.

What democracy is there in a deal that undermines it.

 

Isnt it also noteable that they predict certain foods and cars will become cheaper but medicines will have their patent risen from 20 -22 years.

Keeping the cost high.

 

Yes what a wonderful thing the EU really is.

[mullen13]

The government has lost the article 50 court fight and now needs parliament approval before invoking it. Interesting. Not sure if it will change the final outcome. Parliament to vote against national opinion?

[Don Dan]

Next stop the Suprime court. Closely followed by a general election.

[Boris]

The government has lost the article 50 court fight and now needs parliament approval before invoking it. Interesting. Not sure if it will change the final outcome. Parliament to vote against national opinion?

 

If they see it in the best interests of the Country, then yes.

[Boris]

Next stop the Suprime court. Closely followed by a general election.

 

Yes, the legal wrangling may take some time.

 

Ironic though that the calls from some Brexiters was to make our parliament sovereign, and this is exactly what this court ruling has decided.

 

GE soon?  Can they call one, or does there have to be a vote of no confidence?

[Francis Albert]

Yes, the legal wrangling may take some time.

 

Ironic though that the calls from some Brexiters was to make our parliament sovereign, and this is exactly what this court ruling has decided.

 

GE soon?  Can they call one, or does there have to be a vote of no confidence?

Didn't parliament vote overwhelmingly to hold a binding referendum? I don't remember the "subject to ratification by parliament if it gives the wrong answer" qualification.

[Cade]

It wasn't legally binding, that's the whole point.