Making a Murderer (contains spoilers)

[Chester™]

13 minutes ago, Tynieman said:

Looking at the evidence, to me it's clear Avery is guilty. To believe he's not you'd have to believe the police went to such lengths as to move the victim's body to his yard, plant DNA and blood, plant evidence (keys), create a fire pit put bones into it, plant the victim's car in his yard.

 

 

 

Or:

Someone else did it, the police decided against anyone else doing it and managed to fit the 'evidence' to that 'narrative'.

[Tynieman]

9 minutes ago, Chester™ said:

 

Or:

Someone else did it, the police decided against anyone else doing it and managed to fit the 'evidence' to that 'narrative'.

 

Possible. It does happens no doubt.

 

However, fitting evidence into a narrative doesn't mean going to the extraordinary lengths the police would have had to go in this instance.

 

It would be a massive cover up,  one which could send any of them away for years.

 

There's not much evidence of a cover up,  certainly no more evidence than it was indeed Avery who had done it.

 

I also get the impression the lawyer in S2 is more concerned about the fame than getting her client out.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Tynieman
spelling

[Chester™]

7 minutes ago, Tynieman said:

 

Possible. It does happens no doubt.

 

However, fitting evidence into a narrative doesn't mean going to the extraordinary lengths the police would have had to go in this instance.

 

It would be a massive cover up,  one which could send any of them away for years.

 

 

 

And yet, from what we've seen over the years, both in the UK and US, its that it doesnt matter in the pursuit of a 'result'.

[AlimOzturk]

24 minutes ago, Tynieman said:

 

Possible. It does happens no doubt.

 

However, fitting evidence into a narrative doesn't mean going to the extraordinary lengths the police would have had to go in this instance.

 

It would be a massive cover up,  one which could send any of them away for years.

 

There's not much evidence of a cover up,  certainly no more evidence than it was indeed Avery who had done it.

 

I also get the impression the lawyer in S2 is more concerned about the fame than getting her client out.

 

 

She doesn't need the fame considering she has already exonerated 19 people for wrongful crimes. If anyone knows an innocent person it would be her IMO

[jack D and coke]

Q&A on Twitter with Zellner tonight. Some interesting questions and answers. 

[jack D and coke]

Easier to see the Q’s & A’s here...

 

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1054799869938987012  

 

[jack D and coke]

Some jambo tweeting Zellner...

Who are ya?

 

 

[hampdenharttley]

For what its worth I think Avery was stitched up

 

Saying that the whole system is against you once they think you are guilty

 

The young lads conviction alone was a disgrace 

[ri Alban]

Avery aint the innocent little soul this makes him out to be. He's guilty of something. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by ri Alban

[Angry Haggis]

One thing will say is the Zelliner woman is compelling watching in S2. 

[Ribble]

On 24/10/2018 at 12:33, ri Alban said:

Avery aint the innocent little soul this makes him out to be. He's guilty of something. 

 

I don't for a second think that the programme has ever made out that Avery is a fine upstanding member of society and yes he may well have committed crimes, just not the one's he's been charged with.

[jack D and coke]

20 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

I don't for a second think that the programme has ever made out that Avery is a fine upstanding member of society and yes he may well have committed crimes, just not the one's he's been charged with.

Exactly the family are all, to a man, utter wrong uns! They all probably sleep with each other and various animals but I don’t think he killed Teresa Hallbach. 

[Салатные палочки]

Watched the first two episodes last night.  Dying with the cold so decided a pamper night was on order.  Bath run, with bubbles of course.  Wondering whether I should listen to a podcast or some music whilst I was lying there then remembered about the second series.  Watched the first and planned to go to bed after it but ended up watching the second one.  As with the first series, compelling watching already.  

[southcap]

1. The body was not burned in the pit outside his gaff. Scientifically impossible.

 

2. How the **** did her ex have the day planner?

 

 

[Ribble]

On 23/10/2018 at 14:30, doctor jambo said:

That's where the problem lies- without all the prosecution waffle, the evidence is really strong

 

1- last to see alive- CHECK 

2- vehicle hidden on your property - CHECK

3- accused's blood in the vehicle - CHECK

4- bits of body found in a barrel on your property- CHECK

 

Without wild conspiracy theories, that's pretty much enough to convict almost anyone

 

 

 

1. Last known person to have seen her alive

2. Vehicle badly hidden in a scrapyard for 4-5 days, if Avery done it then he had 4-5 days in which he could have easily dismantled/crushed the Rav 4 and gotten rid of the parts or at the very least (especially considering his last conviction was overturned on DNA evidence) wiped the car down to remove the blood

3. Blood from a cut in his finger that appeared nowhere else other than strangely placed drops inside the Rav 4, again why wouldn't he clean up the very obvious blood drops? Also how do you explain the concentration of his DNA apparently found under the hood latch being 10 times the amount normally found, not to mention the lack of anything other than his DNA being found on the swab? No dirt, grease etc? Was also rather fortunate that Avery left the biggest source of his DNA in the exact place that was force fed to Dassey! 

4. Just as many bits of body found off his property

[Tynecastle Valhalla]

Badly set up I hope he gets justice 

 

with both of them they have had so many false hopes of getting out 

 

the authorities will be scared they are going to be sued 

[Carl Fredrickson]

17 minutes ago, wallace_mercer said:

Badly set up I hope he gets justice 

 

with both of them they have had so many false hopes of getting out 

 

the authorities will be scared they are going to be sued 

 

The reason it all kicked off. Avery was going to sue the authorities for 18 years false imprisonment and suddenly he is up on a murder charge????

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Carl Fredrickson said:

 

The reason it all kicked off. Avery was going to sue the authorities for 18 years false imprisonment and suddenly he is up on a murder charge????

Up on a murder charge because may actually be a murderer. His accomplices might have pinned it entirely on him. 

[chester copperpot]

The more I watch this show, the more it feels like a made up tv show. You know those ones that make you think it's real but it's actually all actors.

 

Everything just seems to be too conveniently placed to keep you hooked.

 

A bit too Lizard Lick Towing for my liking.

[Captain Sausage]

Just finished the second part. 

 

Let’s start with Brendan... how on earth is he in prison? His entire case was built on a confession which was clearly coaxed out of him with planted words and situations. The AEDPA law needs reviewed, clearly the 7th circuit had concerns but he lost his case 4-3. (Interesting that all three white males voted against him..) He should be free and without his confession, it weakens Steven Avery’s case. 

 

Onto Avery...the evidence seems to be very dubious at best. So much of the states case is built on evidence which Zellner has easily been able to dispute. I think her case is much more difficult, but she’s showing that the state case against Avery was clearly false. Bobby lying, the bones in the county pit, the blood in the car, the bullet in the garage, the DNA on the hood latch...

 

At a trial, the points raised would likely be sufficient to cast reasonable doubt on the states proposed version of events and he’d be unlikely to be found guilty. 

 

Keep in mind, even with the ‘confession’ by Dassey, the state used different versions of events for Avery and Dassey! 

[DarthVodka]

Caught up with this now. As soon as it was mentioned that the bullet cailbre was a .22 I said to the Mrs that the chances of a through and through to the front of the skull was very slim. 

 

The whole thing just seems so shambolic and deep rooted but I bet this happens more often that we’d expect in the US. Couldn't believe the previous lawyers didn’t use any experts as the evidence was pretty flimsy. Plus the coroner being prevented going to the scene and being called as a witness was well dodgy

[Darth Sidious]

Cant believe that the original defence, how got book/talking tours off the first season, missed so much evidence.  Star witness, Bobby Dassey, with a computer full of torture porn.  Just because Kratz named it Brendan's computer, they should still have been all over that.  Prosecution's whole case depended on this upstanding, honourable witness which season 2 shows, lied about the girl going to Avery's and then he is not whiter than white and is a more likely suspect.

 

The Dassey mum, wish Jeremy Kyle would get her on, none of my sons or husband murdered her, ok maybe one did, maybe keep that one in prison so the other son and husband don't go to prison.

 

Must be a season 3, and it will be the Avery case being overturned that is the only way that Brendan will get out.

[Tynieman]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 17:18, AlimOzturk said:

 

She doesn't need the fame considering she has already exonerated 19 people for wrongful crimes. If anyone knows an innocent person it would be her IMO

 

Maybe true, but Avery had sent her several letters asking for her help prior to "making a murderer". She failed to reply once.

 

She only took on the case after the success of the show.

[ri Alban]

Guilty! 

[Do The Dance]

On 05/11/2018 at 20:15, Tynieman said:

 

Maybe true, but Avery had sent her several letters asking for her help prior to "making a murderer". She failed to reply once.

 

She only took on the case after the success of the show.

 

Maybe true, but she probably receives quite a few letters every day from many convicted people, and a successful tv show is clearly going to turn any top lawyers head.

 

I can’t believe these 2 guys were convicted based on the 1st series, and I can’t believe they’ve never been given a retrial based on both series.

 

 

[gashauskis9]

State’s main witness turns out to be a paedo with a fetish for dismembered female bodies and violent sex.  Me thinks we have a more obvious suspect than Steven Avery...

[King prawn]

How anyone can watch that and think Avery is the guilty one is beyond me. 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, King prawn said:

How anyone can watch that and think Avery is the guilty one is beyond me. 

I've watched a number of TV shows that have been very persuasive in their bias toward the guilty. OJ being one. This production is no different and (correct me if I'm wrong) has you hooked. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by ri Alban

[King prawn]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I've watched a number of TV shows that have been very persuasive in their bias toward the guilty. OJ being one. This production is no different and (correct me if I'm wrong) has you hooked. 

Because you’ve watched a number of TV shows you’re disputing the evidence shown in this series? 

[AlimOzturk]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I've watched a number of TV shows that have been very persuasive in their bias toward the guilty. OJ being one. This production is no different and (correct me if I'm wrong) has you hooked. 

 

Right because the OJ case is similar to this one 

 

?

[AlphonseCapone]

On 23/10/2018 at 11:37, doctor jambo said:

Sorry,

the dassey confession is coerced

BUT the level of evidence re Avery is pretty convincing

For him not to be at least involved in the murder would require

1- someone apart from him and dassey knowing Halbach was there

2- to lure her off their property

3- to murder her without witness and burn the remains

4- to have Avery's blood and sweat

5- to plant the blood and sweat in her vehicle

6- to plant the vehicle in Avery yard

7- to plant the key

 

You would need a team

 

 

On 23/10/2018 at 12:17, doctor jambo said:

- I'm not saying that she was killed in the trailer.

-that was just a theory

- probably a wrong one

 

When you get past all the stuff postulated by lawyers on both sides you are left with a woman goes to their yard, goes missing, is killed, and Avery's DNA is found all over her vehicle , and her vehicle found in his yard- hidden.

Some of her remains found in his yard in a burn barrel ( though I suspect the disposal and other events happened in the quarry)

Lawyers "paint a picture" for the jury- tell a story

In this case it was not needed and has merely added fog

Had the prosecutor stood up and stated the facts only

Avery would still have been convicted

The window dressing merely allows conspiracy nuts room to vent.

 

 

There's surely no way you've actually watched all of series 2 and still think the evidence against him is strong. If you'd honestly convict on the basis of the prosecutions case, baring in mind we are talking beyond all reasonable doubt, then that's enough for me to scrap the whole jury system. Baffling.

 

A lot of folk have some serious questions to answer, especially Bobby Dassey and the ex boyfriend. 

 

On 23/10/2018 at 12:44, DarthVodka said:

Gonna start on this soon - just finished 'The Staircase' which is quite similar to the first making a murderer series

 

 The Staircase is a good one as well. The main defence lawyer done a talk in Glasgow a few weeks ago that I went along to. Was really interesting. Especially stuff not in the documentary. 

[DarthVodka]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

 The Staircase is a good one as well. The main defence lawyer done a talk in Glasgow a few weeks ago that I went along to. Was really interesting. Especially stuff not in the documentary. 

 

Yeah I seen that advertised, he seemed very on the ball.  Strange case that, injuries were no where near getting smashed over the head several times with a fire poker (or other hard object) or falling down the stairs either 

[AlphonseCapone]

7 hours ago, DarthVodka said:

 

Yeah I seen that advertised, he seemed very on the ball.  Strange case that, injuries were no where near getting smashed over the head several times with a fire poker (or other hard object) or falling down the stairs either 

 

Aye it's weird. You read about the Owl theory? 

[DarthVodka]

26 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Aye it's weird. You read about the Owl theory? 

 

Yeah I read that one. Possible explanation 

[ri Alban]

On 09/11/2018 at 07:37, King prawn said:

Because you’ve watched a number of TV shows you’re disputing the evidence shown in this series? 

No, I'm disputing everything. Something isn't right. 

Ill ask you this. Why haven't the feds taken over if it's so blatant. 

Corruption from police, lawyers and the judges. Must be being looked at, no? 

Edited November 10, 2018 by ri Alban

[King prawn]

23 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

No, I'm disputing everything. Something isn't right. 

Ill ask you this. Why haven't the feds taken over if it's so blatant. 

Corruption from police, lawyers and the judges. Must be being looked at, no? 

[ri Alban]

Just now, King prawn said:

[Beave1874]

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

No, I'm disputing everything. Something isn't right. 

Ill ask you this. Why haven't the feds taken over if it's so blatant. 

Corruption from police, lawyers and the judges. Must be being looked at, no? 

  All a bit dubious to me, back of my mind though that this is a TV programme which is fairly one sided.

 

Still think its a set up for whatever reason.  

Edited November 11, 2018 by Beave1874

[Saul Goodman]

Never got round to watching it in 2015 but watched both seasons this week.

 

hopefully the new AG of Wisconsin reopens the case but in the meantime my own discovery has led me to who the real Ken Krantz is, another slimy slippery POS 

[Quagmire]

On 23/10/2018 at 11:37, doctor jambo said:

Sorry,

the dassey confession is coerced

BUT the level of evidence re Avery is pretty convincing

For him not to be at least involved in the murder would require

1- someone apart from him and dassey knowing Halbach was there

2- to lure her off their property

3- to murder her without witness and burn the remains

4- to have Avery's blood and sweat

5- to plant the blood and sweat in her vehicle

6- to plant the vehicle in Avery yard

7- to plant the key

 

You would need a team

 

 

IMO they probably had a team - my theory is that the police caught bobby dassey, saw who he was related to, looked at how much they looked like they were going to have to shell out in Avery's case against them, then said 'look, if you'll help us frame this guy then go and have a quiet life somewhere, we'll let you off).

[Norm]

Just starter watching this. 4 episodes in. I know it's massively biased and Avery could easily be guilty but **** me. Is there anything in the US that isn't ****ing broken?

 

Health care, gun control, police actions, race relations, the legal system. The place is as much a broken state as N.Korea, Saudi and all the other shitholes. 

[Jambo92]

32 minutes ago, Norm said:

Just starter watching this. 4 episodes in. I know it's massively biased and Avery could easily be guilty but **** me. Is there anything in the US that isn't ****ing broken?

 

Health care, gun control, police actions, race relations, the legal system. The place is as much a broken state as N.Korea, Saudi and all the other shitholes. 

 

Its their culture, their DNA. Win at all costs, at everything they do. Anything and everything gets turned into a competition and it doesn't matter what the truth is, they will be doing everything in their power to come out on top. The American dream...really sad as there is some great things about USA but it will never change.

[ri Alban]

Sorry, thought this was a new documentary about the life and times of a certain part time gypsy JKBer, during lockdown. 

 

Or a new series of the scumbag Avery. 

[AndyNic]

 

 

Very interesting.

 

Bobby Dassey and a yet unknown accomplice (possibly Scott Tadych?) 

 

Lawyers have filed a motion for a Brady violation and named Bobby Dassey as a 'Denny' suspect.