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USA - Another Racist Incident Involving Police.


AlphonseCapone

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AlphonseCapone

Another day, another group of racist, scum bag policemen in the US assaulting a black individual;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32061734

 

The racist attitudes of some people, unfortunately looks like a larger number every day, in the US makes me sick.

 

Doing this while knowing the their cars have dash cams that will contradict their lies just highlights they must have an IQ below 90.

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doctor jambo

Another day, another group of racist, scum bag policemen in the US assaulting a black individual;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32061734

 

The racist attitudes of some people, unfortunately looks like a larger number every day, in the US makes me sick.

 

Doing this while knowing the their cars have dash cams that will contradict their lies just highlights they must have an IQ below 90.

Meanwhile in modern Scotland the followers of one branch of an obsolete Christian cult attack another branch of same cult, without even the paltry excuse that they look different

Sadly Scotland is one large glass house , and the ground is littered with stones

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Another day, another group of racist, scum bag policemen in the US assaulting a black individual;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32061734

 

The racist attitudes of some people, unfortunately looks like a larger number every day, in the US makes me sick.

 

Doing this while knowing the their cars have dash cams that will contradict their lies just highlights they must have an IQ below 90.

Sickening, and unfortunately due to the attitude of a lot of Americans it's not going to change quickly.

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AlphonseCapone

Meanwhile in modern Scotland the followers of one branch of an obsolete Christian cult attack another branch of same cult, without even the paltry excuse that they look different

Sadly Scotland is one large glass house , and the ground is littered with stones

That's the exact same as constant institutional racism right enough

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doctor jambo

That's the exact same as constant institutional racism right enough

 

Dependant on your view point both catholics and protestants would make that allegation in the here and now

Someone on the radio waffling on about anti- Irish racism just the other day

rise in anti-Semitism

There is pretty widespread public belief about the police and their "religious leanings"- just look at the Terrance FFS.

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Sheriff Fatman

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mike-pence-religious-freedom-bill-gay-rights/index.html?ts_pid=2

 

:seething:

 

You cannae use "religious freedom" as an excuse to be an arsehole!

 

 
There is a small but powerful section of Americans who only pay lip service to their constitution, the only thing that matters to them is their personal rights are protected, no matter how many other peoples rights get trampled in the process. They are masters of picking and choosing soundbites out of the Bill of Right and the Constitution, whilst completely ignoring what the original meaning was behind them.
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Craig Gordons Gloves

I've got to take issue with the thread title which is incredibly misleading.

 

It's very easy to take pot shots at America.  The crazy shit is what's reported.  The reality is very different.  Yes, it can be argued that the police have a problem with institutional racism.  However - which police? There are literally thousands of different police forces across the country.  In my town alone - i have the City police, the county Sheriff and the state troopers.  This is a town of 18,000 people. Anyway - i'm digressing.  The attitude towards racism is the same as your attitude towards racism - i.e. unacceptable. However, there are those that are racist, overtly so.  Just like in Scotland/England/France/Spain etc. So, while it's easy to take pot shots at the US (and believe me, i did before i moved here) the attitude towards diversity and inclusion is actually far better than I have experienced in the UK. How many black prime ministers has the UK had? A country that is institutionally racist wouldn't allow the election of a black president.  

 

It's a mad place, with the cultural melting pot that's been talked about for years but it's also incredibly progressive too.  Many states recognized gay marriage before the wonderfully enlightened UK did. 

 

So just remember, that for every racist/homophobic/sexist arse you read about over here, there are many people who are far more enlightened. 

 

Btw - this isn't a post to argue that racism, homophobia etc doesn't happen here - it does.  But it isn't the norm. 

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AlphonseCapone

I've got to take issue with the thread title which is incredibly misleading.

 

It's very easy to take pot shots at America. The crazy shit is what's reported. The reality is very different. Yes, it can be argued that the police have a problem with institutional racism. However - which police? There are literally thousands of different police forces across the country. In my town alone - i have the City police, the county Sheriff and the state troopers. This is a town of 18,000 people. Anyway - i'm digressing. The attitude towards racism is the same as your attitude towards racism - i.e. unacceptable. However, there are those that are racist, overtly so. Just like in Scotland/England/France/Spain etc. So, while it's easy to take pot shots at the US (and believe me, i did before i moved here) the attitude towards diversity and inclusion is actually far better than I have experienced in the UK. How many black prime ministers has the UK had? A country that is institutionally racist wouldn't allow the election of a black president.

 

It's a mad place, with the cultural melting pot that's been talked about for years but it's also incredibly progressive too. Many states recognized gay marriage before the wonderfully enlightened UK did.

 

So just remember, that for every racist/homophobic/sexist arse you read about over here, there are many people who are far more enlightened.

 

Btw - this isn't a post to argue that racism, homophobia etc doesn't happen here - it does. But it isn't the norm.

I'll concede the thread title might be OTT, I was pretty angry when I started the thread straight after reading the article and watching the video.

 

Mods, please change to USA - Another Racist Incident Involving Police.

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alwaysthereinspirit

I've got to take issue with the thread title which is incredibly misleading.

 

It's very easy to take pot shots at America.  The crazy shit is what's reported.  The reality is very different.  Yes, it can be argued that the police have a problem with institutional racism.  However - which police? There are literally thousands of different police forces across the country.  In my town alone - i have the City police, the county Sheriff and the state troopers.  This is a town of 18,000 people. Anyway - i'm digressing.  The attitude towards racism is the same as your attitude towards racism - i.e. unacceptable. However, there are those that are racist, overtly so.  Just like in Scotland/England/France/Spain etc. So, while it's easy to take pot shots at the US (and believe me, i did before i moved here) the attitude towards diversity and inclusion is actually far better than I have experienced in the UK. How many black prime ministers has the UK had? A country that is institutionally racist wouldn't allow the election of a black president.  

 

It's a mad place, with the cultural melting pot that's been talked about for years but it's also incredibly progressive too.  Many states recognized gay marriage before the wonderfully enlightened UK did. 

 

So just remember, that for every racist/homophobic/sexist arse you read about over here, there are many people who are far more enlightened. 

 

Btw - this isn't a post to argue that racism, homophobia etc doesn't happen here - it does.  But it isn't the norm. 

Nice post. 300,000,000 people will have a percentage of A-holes.

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niblick1874

I've got to take issue with the thread title which is incredibly misleading.

 

It's very easy to take pot shots at America.  The crazy shit is what's reported.  The reality is very different.  Yes, it can be argued that the police have a problem with institutional racism.  However - which police? There are literally thousands of different police forces across the country.  In my town alone - i have the City police, the county Sheriff and the state troopers.  This is a town of 18,000 people. Anyway - i'm digressing.  The attitude towards racism is the same as your attitude towards racism - i.e. unacceptable. However, there are those that are racist, overtly so.  Just like in Scotland/England/France/Spain etc. So, while it's easy to take pot shots at the US (and believe me, i did before i moved here) the attitude towards diversity and inclusion is actually far better than I have experienced in the UK. How many black prime ministers has the UK had? A country that is institutionally racist wouldn't allow the election of a black president.  

 

It's a mad place, with the cultural melting pot that's been talked about for years but it's also incredibly progressive too.  Many states recognized gay marriage before the wonderfully enlightened UK did. 

 

So just remember, that for every racist/homophobic/sexist arse you read about over here, there are many people who are far more enlightened. 

 

Btw - this isn't a post to argue that racism, homophobia etc doesn't happen here - it does.  But it isn't the norm. 

Yep. There are those that are saying that it is being blown out of proportion as a divide and conquer look over there and not at us kind of thing. Some are jumping in with both feet, the op being an example. Whatever the case may be, it is far more complex than is seems at first glance as you have pointed out. Calm heads need to prevail.

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AlphonseCapone

Yep. There are those that are saying that it is being blown out of proportion as a divide and conquer look over there and not at us kind of thing. Some are jumping in with both feet, the op being an example. Whatever the case may be, it is far more complex than is seems at first glance as you have pointed out. Calm heads need to prevail.

That's a lot of words for saying the square root of bugger all.

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That's a lot of words for saying the square root of bugger all.

 

Whilst your approach is that of few words but ludicrously sweeping generalisations about a country with a population of 319 million. GOT IT.  

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AlphonseCapone

Whilst your approach is that of few words but ludicrously sweeping generalisations about a country with a population of 319 million. GOT IT.

Correct.

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There are some things that happen in the US that really make you think how much more enlightened Europe is.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32027751

Really? A continent where the far right is largely on the rise, where anti-immigration rhetoric is growing from the crisis Strachen med countries of Italy, Greece and Spain to tolerant and prosperous Sweden and Germany. Where the two power blocs are using eastern Ukraine as a proxy war between the EU and its expansion into nominally Russian spheres of influence? A continent hosting that backwards superpower's nuclear weapons from Iceland to the Czech Republic? A continent where a woman's right to choose is more limited than the Wade ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court? Where we in our lifetimes engaged in genocide?

 

I think these generalisations about the USA are ignorant to a degree.

 

The USA is a nation of many faces and many opinions and beliefs. It's a nation which Europe created largely by exporting its poor, destitute and also it's unwanted for political reasons - puritans, Quakers, Calvinists etc, libertarians, republicans and so on all exported from Europe. It's a nation most like Europe in the world. It's political culture is different but isn't all nations from the other?

 

The thing I always keep in mind about America and why it takes long for reform is its constitution. It's cumbersome and limiting. But it's a civic religion, like the UK with the NHS. Change to it is boisterously opposed and its terms and rules held sacred. Gun control, universal health care, fuller welfare etc are seen as a hinderance to the freedom to choose and make a life of happiness. Not a help but a hinderance.

 

They're a prisoner to their history and their constitution. We need to remember that is what defines them and their country. Their choices on everything else.

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Doctor FinnBarr

I've got to take issue with the thread title which is incredibly misleading.

 

It's very easy to take pot shots at America.  The crazy shit is what's reported.  The reality is very different.  Yes, it can be argued that the police have a problem with institutional racism.  However - which police? There are literally thousands of different police forces across the country.  In my town alone - i have the City police, the county Sheriff and the state troopers.  This is a town of 18,000 people. Anyway - i'm digressing.  The attitude towards racism is the same as your attitude towards racism - i.e. unacceptable. However, there are those that are racist, overtly so.  Just like in Scotland/England/France/Spain etc. So, while it's easy to take pot shots at the US (and believe me, i did before i moved here) the attitude towards diversity and inclusion is actually far better than I have experienced in the UK. has theHow many black prime ministers  UK had? A country that is institutionally racist wouldn't allow the election of a black president.  

 

It's a mad place, with the cultural melting pot that's been talked about for years but it's also incredibly progressive too.  Many states recognized gay marriage before the wonderfully enlightened UK did. 

 

So just remember, that for every racist/homophobic/sexist arse you read about over here, there are many people who are far more enlightened. 

 

Btw - this isn't a post to argue that racism, homophobia etc doesn't happen here - it does.  But it isn't the norm. 

Suppose we could ask "how many black presidents did the US have before Obama?

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Suppose we could ask "how many black presidents did the US have before Obama?

 

Or how many Women leaders? ;)

 

NB - yes I know..

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Killing your own people is barbaric and doing it by firing squad in this day and age is unbelievable.

 

Now the thing about generalization is that you are always open to others pointing the finger back, but what you missed the example I used is the state Government not some right wing nutters who can get 100 people together for a wee march.

 

Also if we narrow it down and look at Europe, I'd make similar statements about Italy and the Governments they have elected.

 

None of this means I hate the US, Italy nor the people that live there.

Not saying that you hate them at all. I just think it's not reflective of the USA. The central states are more to the right than the costal ones which are largely more European.

 

On Utah, they're a democratically elected government and the law has passed the independent and democratically elected legislature. May not like what they're doing but it's clearly the people of Utah who are consenting to it and it's their right to do so.

 

The abolition of the death penalty in Europe has taken generations to come about. It'll take them as long to come to a better position. But then again they're prison system is based on punishment not rehab so maybe not.

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Not saying that you hate them at all. I just think it's not reflective of the USA. The central states are more to the right than the costal ones which are largely more European.

 

On Utah, they're a democratically elected government and the law has passed the independent and democratically elected legislature. May not like what they're doing but it's clearly the people of Utah who are consenting to it and it's their right to do so.

 

The abolition of the death penalty in Europe has taken generations to come about. It'll take them as long to come to a better position. But then again they're prison system is based on punishment not rehab so maybe not.

 

California, Carolina's, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana? I think not. maybe you mean New England?

 

I love the US and without getting too anal about it, it's maybe centuries ahead! Many of its social problems have become manifested in the gang cultures that are now firmly rooted. These gangs are formed from the offspring of the poor and disenfranchised which were most often racial "minorities". Look at England, France, Italy etc and it can be argued that's where they are headed.

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Ibrahim Tall

On the firing squad point, while it's still pretty horrible is it really any worse than for instance hanging or the electric chair or even lethal injection with its history of problems?

Given the choice id probably rather suffer the quick and sudden death of a bullet than potentially hours in screaming agony because the chemical dosage is wrong.

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Craig Gordons Gloves

Suppose we could ask "how many black presidents did the US have before Obama?

 

True - and the answer would be zero. However, that's kind of my point. It was only 50 years ago that legal segregation still existed in many places.  The law changed in the 60s so to go from that to having a black president within 50 years is not something that an institutionally racist country would do. 

 

I agree that on the right there are crackpots who are racist - you only need to look at the vehement opposition to ANYTHING that Obama wants to do, irrespective of whether it is a good idea or not.  My point remains the same though - that the US is not generally the crazy place that it is portrayed to be.  One read of Private Eye will show you some crazy shit that happens in the UK.

 

(btw - i don't mean that there aren't racists on the left either - but the right wing republicans have a majority on this)

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I don't see the issue with a firing squad. I'm completely 100% against the death penalty but if you're going to execute people, what difference does it make if it's a needle or a bullet?

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Brock Lesnar

It's a difficult topic, because there is a lot more scope for there to be racists, because there are a lot more people, and the US has a larger population of minorities. I don't think there is any denying that institutional racism exists, however. The black President example isn't applicable because most of the institutional racism is at a more local level. Ferguson PD or local government aren't going to call a halt to Obama's election campaign, but they can target minorities in fines, police actions, etc. Obama shows that black people are allowed to run in elections, no more, no less. 

 

It goes back to guns though. If somewhere in Edinburgh was notorious for having a poorer population, with angrier residents, and the knowledge that firearms were readily available at Tesco, the police wouldn't wander round unarmed and situations would be a little bit more volatile. The attitudes to situations differ when the police are getting involved in a situation where there could be lots of firearms. If there is a very real situation people could be gunned down in the street, it is far more likely to see 'shoot first, ask questions later' from both sides. I couldn't imagine being a police officer in the US and literally putting your life on the line every day. In NY you can get gunned down in your car for having the audacity to be a police officer FFS.

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NewYorkJambo

Another day, another group of racist, scum bag policemen in the US assaulting a black individual;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32061734

 

The racist attitudes of some people, unfortunately looks like a larger number every day, in the US makes me sick.

 

Doing this while knowing the their cars have dash cams that will contradict their lies just highlights they must have an IQ below 90.

 

 

As someone who lives in the country you are generalising about, is married to an American, and has countless American friends, I feel qualified to say that your title to the thread is absolute nonsense.

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NewYorkJambo

 

I think these generalisations about the USA are ignorant to a degree.

 

 

 

Just remove the last three words

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Craig Gordons Gloves

It's a difficult topic, because there is a lot more scope for there to be racists, because there are a lot more people, and the US has a larger population of minorities. I don't think there is any denying that institutional racism exists, however. The black President example isn't applicable because most of the institutional racism is at a more local level. Ferguson PD or local government aren't going to call a halt to Obama's election campaign, but they can target minorities in fines, police actions, etc. Obama shows that black people are allowed to run in elections, no more, no less

 

It goes back to guns though. If somewhere in Edinburgh was notorious for having a poorer population, with angrier residents, and the knowledge that firearms were readily available at Tesco, the police wouldn't wander round unarmed and situations would be a little bit more volatile. The attitudes to situations differ when the police are getting involved in a situation where there could be lots of firearms. If there is a very real situation people could be gunned down in the street, it is far more likely to see 'shoot first, ask questions later' from both sides. I couldn't imagine being a police officer in the US and literally putting your life on the line every day. In NY you can get gunned down in your car for having the audacity to be a police officer FFS.

 

I disagree, Obama showed that being black isn't a barrier to being elected to the most powerful political position in the country and that people are capable of looking beyond your ethnicity and agreeing with your viewpoint.  

 

It also doesn't go back to guns -that's too simplistic an argument. Why are these neighborhoods 'angrier' as you say? Is it because they feel unfairly targeted by the police because they happen to live in that neighborhood and have a different color of skin.  To use your example of the 2 NYPD officers that were shot in the car - turn it around and say you can get gunned down in the street for having the audacity to be black. Far more people have been killed by police officers than police officers have been killed. 

 

I completely agree with your opening line though - it's a difficult topic. 

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Brock Lesnar

I disagree, Obama showed that being black isn't a barrier to being elected to the most powerful political position in the country and that people are capable of looking beyond your ethnicity and agreeing with your viewpoint.  

 

It also doesn't go back to guns -that's too simplistic an argument. Why are these neighborhoods 'angrier' as you say? Is it because they feel unfairly targeted by the police because they happen to live in that neighborhood and have a different color of skin.  To use your example of the 2 NYPD officers that were shot in the car - turn it around and say you can get gunned down in the street for having the audacity to be black. Far more people have been killed by police officers than police officers have been killed. 

 

I completely agree with your opening line though - it's a difficult topic. 

 

Obama's victory in the election doesn't prove, or disprove racism in the US. Elections aren't won by the colour of people's skin. But if we're looking at ethnicities and voting numbers - Obama got millions of votes purely based on the colour of his skin, let's not rewrite history. In 2012, 93% of African-American, 73% of Asian and 71% of Hispanic people voted for Obama. 39% of white people voted for Obama. If the majority of white voters in America had got their way, he wouldn't have been anywhere near the White House. He rode to victory on the fact that minorities were voting for a minority leader. 

 

But that's not really the point. Whilst yes, a black man can be voted into presidential office, that doesn't really affect local communities where minorities feel prosecuted, unfairly treated and at risk daily. Just because a black man is the President doesn't mean that people and institutions aren't racist. Using the numbers above, you could just as easily argue that the voting numbers prove people are racist (they don't though). The majority of white voters didn't want a black man in the White House, whilst the vast majority of ethnic minorities didn't want a white man in the White House. 

 

These communities are angrier because they feel targeted, because they feel they aren't represented, because they feel ignored, because they live in squalor, there are many further reasons. The fact remains, if you introduce firearms into a situation it changes the dynamic and makes it a lot more dangerous. There is an actual risk that people could get shot and die. That means that people are going to have itchy trigger fingers. 

 

There are racist people in PDs and local government, however, if they don't have guns, they can't go out and act on those racist beliefs by shooting up some black folks for the banter. Take away guns, and flashpoints between minorities and police officers become less dangerous, as people aren't holding guns thinking they are going to get shot.

 

And yeah, plenty people get shot for being black, but people get shot for being police officers. The common issue is that they get shot.

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

I never understand why people get in such a state about news stories from America that are, despite what you'd like to believe, extremely rare. Just yesterday I read a story about a young Scottish guy who is accused of stabbing a Chinese delivery driver in the neck. This guy's brother is already in prison for killing another Chinese delivery driver in an unrelated incident. Where's the reactionary outcry about that? I can play the game too and lose the head about how Scotland is one of the most backward countries in the developed world where young men routinely knife each other to death.

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AlphonseCapone

As someone who lives in the country you are generalising about, is married to an American, and has countless American friends, I feel qualified to say that your title to the thread is absolute nonsense.

It's lovely you know so many Americans. And later in the thread I concede the title might have been OTT based on being angry when I wrote it.

 

But none the less does it not make you sick to your stomach that a nation built on the principles of hope and freedom has so many incidents in the 21st century of white policemen assaulting and killing black people?

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AlphonseCapone

I never understand why people get in such a state about news stories from America that are, despite what you'd like to believe, extremely rare. Just yesterday I read a story about a young Scottish guy who is accused of stabbing a Chinese delivery driver in the neck. This guy's brother is already in prison for killing another Chinese delivery driver in an unrelated incident. Where's the reactionary outcry about that? I can play the game too and lose the head about how Scotland is one of the most backward countries in the developed world where young men routinely knife each other to death.

Probably because if we play a sick game of exchanging occasions where these things occur in each country, you'd run out of examples long before I would.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Mac_fae_Gillie

according to FOX NEWS the guy was running backwards at the cop and the video was in rewind...just kidding hope I didn't give fox any ideas.

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yep every day thousands of people are murdered by cops in America. Thousands I tells ya.

 

Obviously not thousands but there was a stat put up by one of my US Twitter followers. Nearly 500 people have been killed by cops, in the US, in the last year.

 

Thats an eyebrow raising stat.

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alwaysthereinspirit

Obviously not thousands but there was a stat put up by one of my US Twitter followers. Nearly 500 people have been killed by cops, in the US, in the last year.

 

Thats an eyebrow raising stat.

Killed is not even close to being the same as murdered when it comes to police deaths. The latest one was murder.

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Killed is not even close to being the same as murdered when it comes to police deaths. The latest one was murder.

And how much of that is down to covering up? If this latest one wasnt filmed, would it still be murder?

 

The next closest, on the stat, was Germany. They had 8.

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I might be miles off and totally wrong and it might not be particularly relevant to this debate, but is US law(a big percentage) not based on Scots law? 

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AlphonseCapone

yep every day thousands of people are murdered by cops in America. Thousands I tells ya.

Denial.

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alwaysthereinspirit

And how much of that is down to covering up? If this latest one wasnt filmed, would it still be murder?

 

The next closest, on the stat, was Germany. They had 8.

Right at this minute the latest one would not be "murder" if it wasn't filmed but you already knew that.

As for the number of cover ups? Like you I have no idea.

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Right at this minute the latest one would not be "murder" if it wasn't filmed but you already knew that.

As for the number of cover ups? Like you I have no idea.

 

Indeed. So the original point stands then. :thumbsup:

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alwaysthereinspirit

Indeed. So the original point stands then. :thumbsup:

You didnt make a point. You mentioned stats but didnt show any.

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You didnt make a point. You mentioned stats but didnt show any.

 

Yes I did. I said around 500 people had been killed by cops in the last year. Looks like a stat to me.

 

You said killing was different to murder. As you've agreed, if this wasnt filmed, this wouldnt be classed as a murder. Therefore, which I got at with my second post (which is my original point on this), though admittedly I thought you would pick up on it without me being overly obvious, is that trying to compare killings and murders is irrelevant as due to the likely nature of how it would be reported, you wouldnt be sure just how many are 'killings' and how many are 'murders'.

 

Either way, its an brow raising statistic. :)

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alwaysthereinspirit

Yes I did. I said around 500 people had been killed by cops in the last year. Looks like a stat to me.

 

You said killing was different to murder. As you've agreed, if this wasnt filmed, this wouldnt be classed as a murder. Therefore, which I got at with my second post (which is my original point on this), though admittedly I thought you would pick up on it without me being overly obvious, is that trying to compare killings and murders is irrelevant as due to the likely nature of how it would be reported, you wouldnt be sure just how many are 'killings' and how many are 'murders'.

 

Either way, its an brow raising statistic. :)

I did not say the latest one wouldn't be classed as murder. I said right at this minute the latest one would not be murder if it wasn't filmed.

Thats because the murderer was never going to admit to murder. He had a lie (the taser) for an alibi and then the police would have had to do due dilligence and take over and do an investigation.

Find witnesses, interview witnesses, autopsy results and whatever else is required in a police killing. At this precise minute without the video there would be no murder.

Thank god for I-phones.

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I did not say the latest one wouldn't be classed as murder. I said right at this minute the latest one would not be murder if it wasn't filmed.

Thats because the murderer was never going to admit to murder. He had a lie (the taser) for an alibi and then the police would have had to do due dilligence and take over and do an investigation.

Find witnesses, interview witnesses, autopsy results and whatever else is required in a police killing. At this precise minute without the video there would be no murder.

Thank god for I-phones.

 

Without the filming, I highly doubt it would be murder, despite any 'due diligence' TBH.

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alwaysthereinspirit

Without the filming, I highly doubt it would be murder, despite any 'due diligence' TBH.

Guess this one doesn't really matter as he's been charged with murder. As he should be.

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Guess this one doesn't really matter as he's been charged with murder. As he should be.

 

Indeed.

 

Makes you think and wonder though.

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