Wigan James McLean refuses to wear poppy shirt

[moogsy]

I think it's important to remember that poppies aren't solely for rememberance and that some of the money collected will go towards current and former armed forces members.

 

For someone like McLean from Northern Ireland whose family/friends may have had horrendous experiences with British soldiers in the not so distant past I think it's understandable if he feels he doesn't want to take part in a fundraising campaign that could potentially be giving money to those same soldiers.

 

Either way, folk need to get over it and realise it's a personal decision. Wigan are fine with his choice, that should be the end of it.

[Taffin]

I think you'll find it is for all allied soldiers, British, or not (and quite a few who actually faught in the wars use it to remember any soldier who lost their lives due to politicians playing games).

 

Whilst he is entirely entitled not to wear one, I think people need to remember the wider meaning of what the poppy means to many. There is the remnants of an old ww2 axis aircraft up in the pentlands and there is a small point where people have laid poppies and wreaths. For many, the wearing of the poppy is to remember the many who have perished at the hands of war and the atrocities that the human race subjects one another to. It isn't about right or wrong or who did what, for me at least, it is about never forgetting the loss of life to the hands of war and all the pain which comes with it.

 

I think that is what Gregory was getting at earlier, McLean seems to suggest he is happy to commemorate the allied lives of those lost during ww2 despite the atrocities that some of them bestowed upon German civilians whilst saying that the acts during the Troubles mean he won't. He wasn't saying poppy wearers justify Dresden, rather that, you are either against wearing one given the horrors committed during war or you aren't. There is a hypocrisy to what McLean has said. IMO I thought that was pretty clear to people, but some seem oblivious to that. (Not directed at you btw, just your post touched upon what remembrance means for me)

[luckydug]

Has there been a German player in British football who has ever refused to wear his teams poppy shirt?

 

 

I would doubt it as remembrance day is to remember the war dead regardless of nationality.At least that is how I see it.

Its a pity that in recent years the poppy appeal has turned into an undemocratic and jingoistic chest beating festival.

Some people's attitude to the remembrance events and I include the TV companies in this, is the very opposite of what so many people gave their lives for.

[Mister T]

 

 

My great grandfather was gassed in WW1 while serving in Royal Scots and according to my grandfather never wore a poppy as he thought it was a pointless gesture despite losing many friends and colleagues so that proves it is a personal decision.

And my great uncle was awarded the military medal at the Somme and was killed ar Arras in 1917. He never got the chance to wear the poppy, so I'm proud to on his behalf.

[dc-jambo]

Be good if more players stood up against this.

 

I went out of my way to wear a poppy for decades, but unfortunately it has now become a worthless, enforced ritual.

 

Just look at all these twats on tv wearing them, large and red and brilliant, most of them know or care nothing.

 

ritual best abandoned, imho

[Sheriff Fatman]

Whilst he is entirely entitled not to wear one, I think people need to remember the wider meaning of what the poppy means to many. There is the remnants of an old ww2 axis aircraft up in the pentlands and there is a small point where people have laid poppies and wreaths. For many, the wearing of the poppy is to remember the many who have perished at the hands of war and the atrocities that the human race subjects one another to. It isn't about right or wrong or who did what, for me at least, it is about never forgetting the loss of life to the hands of war and all the pain which comes with it.

 

I think that is what Gregory was getting at earlier, McLean seems to suggest he is happy to commemorate the allied lives of those lost during ww2 despite the atrocities that some of them bestowed upon German civilians whilst saying that the acts during the Troubles mean he won't. He wasn't saying poppy wearers justify Dresden, rather that, you are either against wearing one given the horrors committed during war or you aren't. There is a hypocrisy to what McLean has said. IMO I thought that was pretty clear to people, but some seem oblivious to that. (Not directed at you btw, just your post touched upon what remembrance means for me)

 

I personally loved what the ITV news reporter said when she stated that she would not wear a poppy when on air because she was not allowed to wear any other symbols of charity when they mean just as much to her. Both sides of her family had a military background, but for some arbitrary reason that is more important than other members of her family dying of cancer. I also loved the fact that she said that she knows that she is going to get abuse for her decision and she will wear the poppy of air, but it is nobody else's business what button hole she wears.

[Broxburn Jambo]

Examples of Scotland?s War Losses

At Loos, on September 25, 1915, 36 of the 72 attacking battalions were Scottish and of the 12 participating battalions which suffered more than 500 casualties, eight were Scottish.

At the Battle of Arras, on April 9, 1917, the Official History noted that 44 of the 120 infantry battalions committed (36.6%) were Scottish (12 each in 15th and 51st Divisions); nine, including the South African Scottish in the 9th; six, including four Tyneside Scottish in the 34th; three in the 3rd; one in the 30th and 1/1 London Scottish in the 56th. Removing the Tynesiders, South Africans and London Scottish, all of which may not have had a majority of Scots, the remaining 39 Scottish battalions represents 32.5% of the attacking force.

Like all the UK's good Western Front assault divisions, 9th (Scottish), 15th (Scottish) and 51st (Highland) were deployed in crucial attacks more often than less competent divisions. Their war's end casualties reflected this. The 52nd (Lowland) served in the Middle East and, latterly, France.

So, do you want these Scots forgotten? The poppy is an act of remembrance

[Chris Benoit]

As is his right he's chosen not to wear a poppy. Any further speculation or angst is utterly pointless.

[Taffin]

I personally loved what the ITV news reporter said when she stated that she would not wear a poppy when on air because she was not allowed to wear any other symbols of charity when they mean just as much to her. Both sides of her family had a military background, but for some arbitrary reason that is more important than other members of her family dying of cancer. I also loved the fact that she said that she knows that she is going to get abuse for her decision and she will wear the poppy of air, but it is nobody else's business what button hole she wears.

 

Totally, I'm not suggesting anyone should wear a poppy. I have no qualms whatsoever with anyone's reasoning for not doing it, that is their personal choice. I do have a bit of an issue with hypocritical statements that don't follow logic, which imo, McLeans is just that. He shouldn't have to justify his reasons though, I don't agree with him, but he has every right to follow through on his own beliefs.

 

I just don't like when people suggest that wearing a poppy is a sign of supporting war or British warmongering. For most, that I know certainly, they are often extremely opposed to war but still want to remember those whose lives have been cruelly cut short.

[Sheriff Fatman]

So, do you want these Scots forgotten? The poppy is an act of remembrance

If it takes a a bit of plastic and some paper to remember, are you really remembering?

[Sheriff Fatman]

Totally, I'm not suggesting anyone should wear a poppy. I have no qualms whatsoever with anyone's reasoning for not doing it, that is their personal choice. I do have a bit of an issue with hypocritical statements that don't follow logic, which imo, McLeans is just that. He shouldn't have to justify his reasons though, I don't agree with him, but he has every right to follow through on his own beliefs.

 

100%

[niblick1874]

Be good if more players stood up against this.

 

I went out of my way to wear a poppy for decades, but unfortunately it has now become a worthless, enforced ritual.

 

Just look at all these twats on tv wearing them, large and red and brilliant, most of them know or care nothing.

 

ritual best abandoned, imho

Going by the surprisingly high amout of posters on this thread that to me are banging the drum, I cannot see it going back to what it should be.

[Creepy Lurker]

I won't be wearing a poppy this year and didn't last year. Why? Because although I respect those who gave their lives in the wars, I don't like the fact that the poppy seems to have been appropriated as part of the paraphernalia of an increasingly sinister ideology of 'patriotism' being forced upon us by the state.

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

[Kinkster]

Go to Contalmaison and the surrounding area, poppies are the last thing I thought of.

[niblick1874]

I won't be wearing a poppy this year and didn't last year. Why? Because although I respect those who gave their lives in the wars, I don't like the fact that the poppy seems to have been appropriated as part of the paraphernalia of an increasingly sinister ideology of 'patriotism' being forced upon us by the state.

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

yep.

[graygo]

I won't be wearing a poppy this year and didn't last year. Why? Because although I respect those who gave their lives in the wars, I don't like the fact that the poppy seems to have been appropriated as part of the paraphernalia of an increasingly sinister ideology of 'patriotism' being forced upon us by the state.

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

 

[Juan Rom?n Riquelme]

I won't be wearing a poppy this year and didn't last year. Why? Because although I respect those who gave their lives in the wars, I don't like the fact that the poppy seems to have been appropriated as part of the paraphernalia of an increasingly sinister ideology of 'patriotism' being forced upon us by the state.

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

 

[wibble]

An absolute embarrassment of a thread. Chock full of muppets.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If McClean played for Hearts I would have no problem with him not wearing the special shirt for the game in a few hours.

 

I would, however, expect him to be in attendance at Haymarket the following morning.

[Mister T]

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

Poppy "fascism"? Really? When the poppy appeal includes rememberance of people who died fighting fascism in world war 2?

 

I don't know if they do anything similar in Russia but can you imagine the reaction if a foreign player refused to wear a symbol remembering their war dead? Wouldn't happen. And if it did the player would not be selectef and would be transferred.

 

As for the last sentence of your comment above, I think that's a very good description of the children in need \ comedy relief appeals not the poppy appeal.

 

I think there is still dignity around the poppy appeal. But I agree that the day I get accosted by someone in fancy dress collecting for it or see someone sitting in a bath of custard for poppy day, then yes, I'll think twice about wearing one.

[Seymour M Hersh]

So for flag debate replace flag with poppy.

 

Imho his reasons are spurious and political but I'd defend his right not to wear a poppy. I wonder what he'd do if the club badge had something in it his "political beliefs" didn't agree with.

[Kiwidoug]

I understood that his family and the Stokes family were fanatically supportive of IRA and Real IRA cowards murdering children.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.

 

Personally I support his decision as I don't consider him a fit person to wear the poppy.

 

I don't consider him a fit person full stop.

[McCrae]

 

If McClean played for Hearts I would have no problem with him not wearing the special shirt for the game in a few hours.

 

 

I would have a huge problem with this. No one forces a player to play for a club. If he doesn't like the traditions of the club he can choose not to play for them.

[Hearts Heritage]

I would have a huge problem with this. No one forces a player to play for a club. If he doesn't like the traditions of the club he can choose not to play for them.

 

What errant nonsense.

 

By your argument that would mean that no Catholics would ever play for Rangers because of their tradition.

 

A footballer signs a contract to play football and (I presume) a 'code of conduct' however if that code of conduct included 'the forced wearing of a symbol' I wouldn't want them to join that sort of club anyway.

 

I would hope every Heart of Mid-Lothian player would want to wear a 'Poppy Shirt', particularly this year, once the History of the Club has been explained.

However I would respect their decision of conscience if they chose not to wear it.

[fabienleclerq]

 

 

What errant nonsense.

 

By your argument that would mean that no Catholics would ever play for Rangers because of their tradition.

 

A footballer signs a contract to play football and (I presume) a 'code of conduct' however if that code of conduct included 'the forced wearing of a symbol' I wouldn't want them to join that sort of club anyway.

 

I would hope every Heart of Mid-Lothian player would want to wear a 'Poppy Shirt', particularly this year, once the History of the Club has been explained.

However I would respect their decision of conscience if they chose not to wear it.

 

If I was a proper Catholic I wouldn't want to play for rangers, they still get away with their bile week in week out. McLean wouldn't be welcome at Tynecastle.

[Creepy Lurker]

 

Poppy "fascism"? Really? When the poppy appeal includes rememberance of people who died fighting fascism in world war 2?

 

I don't know if they do anything similar in Russia but can you imagine the reaction if a foreign player refused to wear a symbol remembering their war dead? Wouldn't happen. And if it did the player would not be selectef and would be transferred.

 

As for the last sentence of your comment above, I think that's a very good description of the children in need \ comedy relief appeals not the poppy appeal.

 

I think there is still dignity around the poppy appeal. But I agree that the day I get accosted by someone in fancy dress collecting for it or see someone sitting in a bath of custard for poppy day, then yes, I'll think twice about wearing one.

 

I used the phrase 'poppy fascism' for that exact reason. It was to emphasise how ridiculous a situation we're in when we're being berated for exercising our freedom not to wear a symbol which represents those who fought and died, among other things, to protect that freedom of expression. It's a polemical statement inasmuch as we clearly don't live in a fascist regime, but the views of some private individuals certainly appear to tend towards the stifling of our right of freedom of expression.

 

Scratch that; it's barely even freedom of expression. It's the choice to not express a particular sentiment (through the wearing of a certain accessory). Not even to express the opposite sentiment or argue against it; just not to express that particular sentiment.

 

The rest of your post is weird. Russia has a terrible human rights record; why would we want to emulate what they'd do? And if you think that there's any meaningful analogy here with Children in Need then you've missed my point entirely.

[Locky]

When the rumours came about before that he refused to wear it at Sunderland, I thought the boy was an arse.

 

Having read that open letter, I fully support his decision on a personal level.

 

But, that makes me wonder. What about Celtic.

 

We've dissed them so much for their fans not wanting to wear poppies on their shirt, but if many have such an Irish connection, are they the same and should we just accept it?

[john brownlee]

Absolute storm in a teacup all of this. Don't agree with him, but hey ho that's what he wants to do, then why give him the oxygen of publicity. He's best ignored.

This and I ain't reading anymore pesh on this thread

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chris Benoit]

 

 

What errant nonsense.

 

By your argument that would mean that no Catholics would ever play for Rangers because of their tradition.

 

A footballer signs a contract to play football and (I presume) a 'code of conduct' however if that code of conduct included 'the forced wearing of a symbol' I wouldn't want them to join that sort of club anyway.

 

I would hope every Heart of Mid-Lothian player would want to wear a 'Poppy Shirt', particularly this year, once the History of the Club has been explained.

However I would respect their decision of conscience if they chose not to wear it.

 

 

Summed up perfectly.

[Governor Tarkin]

I won't be wearing a poppy this year and didn't last year. Why? Because although I respect those who gave their lives in the wars, I don't like the fact that the poppy seems to have been appropriated as part of the paraphernalia of an increasingly sinister ideology of 'patriotism' being forced upon us by the state.

 

Poppy fascism was almost funny at first, but it's taken an increasingly creepy turn. Remembrance when I was growing up always seemed like a dignified, understated thing. Increasingly it's become an aggressive, jingoistic attempt to out-respect each other.

 

Good post.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

What errant nonsense.

 

By your argument that would mean that no Catholics would ever play for Rangers because of their tradition.

 

A footballer signs a contract to play football and (I presume) a 'code of conduct' however if that code of conduct included 'the forced wearing of a symbol' I wouldn't want them to join that sort of club anyway.

 

I would hope every Heart of Mid-Lothian player would want to wear a 'Poppy Shirt', particularly this year, once the History of the Club has been explained.

However I would respect their decision of conscience if they chose not to wear it.

Correct

[Gorgiewave]

I suspect the annual seethe will eventually end the poppy tradition.

[Homme]

Up to him. Its not mandatory.

[Deevers]

 

I suspect the annual seethe will eventually end the poppy tradition.

For some, no doubt about it. Most however will continue to wear the poppy and pay their respects in a quiet dignified manner.

[Heartbeat]

I can see both points of view TBF, if it is emotive in his part of the world then see how it Wd be percieved however he plies his trade on these shores and earns a lot of dough from it so maybe just observing IT for what it is as opposed to chucking other non related issues into the mx would have done? Brings up a valid issue though about having it almost compulsary at this time.

 

I see it as respectful to wear and especially as James himself has mentioned the Irish who perished also. He will get away with his stance over here but can't help thinking if for example he was in Turkey and decided he would not wear an emblem designed to commemorate their war dead what would occur

[RealMaroonCF]

Each to their own but imo Wigan Athletic, the club that pays his wages, have decided to adorn the poppy on their shirts, he should abide by that but if he feels strongly about it enough then he should walk completely from a club who want to honour the war dead by adorning a poppy.

 

He imo IS trying to make a political issue out of the poppy.

 

Di Maria is Argentinean. What if he feels loyalty to the Falklands like many other Argentines and feels he can't wear a poppy if Utd decide to put one on their shirt.?

 

Should he just walk aswell

 

I've never read such utter drivel in my life.

 

Make YOUR decision. Don't force YOUR decision on anyone else....or YOUR opinion for that matter.

 

There have been many fights for freedom. Some are more distasteful than others. But that's war. Freedom is to be shared, do with it what YOU like and let others do the same.

[RealMaroonCF]

 

 

What errant nonsense.

 

By your argument that would mean that no Catholics would ever play for Rangers because of their tradition.

 

A footballer signs a contract to play football and (I presume) a 'code of conduct' however if that code of conduct included 'the forced wearing of a symbol' I wouldn't want them to join that sort of club anyway.

 

I would hope every Heart of Mid-Lothian player would want to wear a 'Poppy Shirt', particularly this year, once the History of the Club has been explained.

However I would respect their decision of conscience if they chose not to wear it.

 

Spot on mate.

 

As would be owners of our club we should be mindful of tradition but also personal opinion. We can't be seen to sideline people just because they don't follow a historic party line.

 

Our club honours our fallen heroes. If there are players or supporters who don't agree, let's not hang them out to dry.

[blondejamtart]

Each to their own but imo Wigan Athletic, the club that pays his wages, have decided to adorn the poppy on their shirts, he should abide by that but if he feels strongly about it enough then he should walk completely from a club who want to honour the war dead by adorning a poppy.

 

He imo IS trying to make a political issue out of the poppy.

This is how I feel too. If he was simply being asked to wear a poppy on his jacket, for instance, and refusing to do so, then fair enough - that's his choice. But in this instance, surely the shirt is his 'work uniform'. If he feels so strongly about it, he should do as Gambo suggests.

[The White Cockade]

I suggest people who feel strongly about Remembrance Day pay their respects, wear their poppy with pride

and spend some time thinking about the Fallen who gave their lives for our freedom

 

Other people may not wear poppies but that is their business

 

Please true Hearts fans Honour and care about the war dead and what they died and show Respect

 

Lets not have any nonsense having a go at others or saying we are better than others that is really not

what it is all about and demeans the whole thing

 

Lest We Forget

[The Shed Floodlight]

What a shit excuse, just because he's from a staunch republican, bigoted area. He is taking big bucks out of the English game, he should respect the country and cultures he is working in

 

Correct i fully agree with this, he has his own agenda here, he has totally disrespected his club, fans and most of all Dave Whelan will personally be disappointed. Hope he tells Rosler to drop him. Trying for publicity so him and all his bigoted mates can lap it up.

[Mister T]

 

 

I used the phrase 'poppy fascism' for that exact reason. It was to emphasise how ridiculous a situation we're in when we're being berated for exercising our freedom not to wear a symbol which represents those who fought and died, among other things, to protect that freedom of exp<b></b>ression. It's a polemical statement inasmuch as we clearly don't live in a fascist regime, but the views of some private individuals certainly appear to tend towards the stifling of our right of freedom of exp<b></b>ression.

 

Scratch that; it's barely even freedom of exp<b></b>ression. It's the choice to not express a particular sentiment (through the wearing of a certain accessory). Not even to express the opposite sentiment or argue against it; just not to express that particular sentiment.

 

The rest of your post is weird. Russia has a terrible human rights record; why would we want to emulate what they'd do? And if you think that there's any meaningful analogy here with Children in Need then you've missed my point entirely.

Sorry, silly me, I thought this was a thread about remembering the war dead not human rights issues.

 

You're right Russia's human rights record is terrible but name a country that's squeaky clean.

 

I was also suggesting that there's little dignity in the way children in need represents charitable giving. A whole night of tv taken up by over paid hysterical celebrities telling us to phone in with donations... I think you missed my point too. And before anyone says it, yes I do turn it off.

[Jambopara]

This for sure: for my sins I served extensively in NI' Belfast, East tyrone, South Armagh and I spent time in Londonderry. This boy may well hate the Brits- and he will believe me, but if he could wear IRA poppy equivalent your can bet your erchie he would. He's no peac e, he's a PIRA supporting anti british approved of terrorism, don't think for a second he isn't. Personally I wouldn't want him polluting the cherished symbolism of a poppy,

 

 

 

 

 

I understood that his family and the Stokes family were fanatically supportive of IRA and Real IRA cowards murdering children.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.

 

Personally I support his decision as I don't consider him a fit person to wear the poppy.

 

I don't consider him a fit person full stop.

[Special Agent Dale Cooper]

I suspect the annual seethe will eventually end the poppy tradition.

 

Here's hoping.

[Franco Fascione]

I suggest people who feel strongly about Remembrance Day pay their respects, wear their poppy with pride

and spend some time thinking about the Fallen who gave their lives for our freedom

 

Other people may not wear poppies but that is their business

 

Please true Hearts fans Honour and care about the war dead and what they died and show Respect

 

Lets not have any nonsense having a go at others or saying we are better than others that is really not

what it is all about and demeans the whole thing

 

Lest We Forget

 

Hear, hear!

[jambali]

The club that HE signed for and pay his wages have decided that wearing the poppy is the right thing to do, HE still decided to sign/play for a club with these value The club are not asking him to wear the poppy every day.

 

Tell him if that it is that big an issue for him, Wigan have found it big enough to adorn the club kit with it, to sign for Warrington FC, as the have decided that they don't feel the need to wear a poppy.

 

If the 'poppy' means that much to him , and it should be his choice imo, then don't sign for a club who think it is in their values to have the poppy adorn their dirt at this time of year.

 

If it was a problem for the club - they could have left him out.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

This for sure: for my sins I served extensively in NI' Belfast, East tyrone, South Armagh and I spent time in Londonderry. This boy may well hate the Brits- and he will believe me, but if he could wear IRA poppy equivalent your can bet your erchie he would. He's no peac e, he's a PIRA supporting anti british approved of terrorism, don't think for a second he isn't. Personally I wouldn't want him polluting the cherished symbolism of a poppy,

 

That's my opinion of him as well

 

 

[davemclaren]

I don't anyone should be compelled to wear a poppy. If Wigan wanted everyone to wear a poppy I'm sure thy could make it a contractual obligation, like they will have done for commercial sponsor logos.

 

Acts of remembrance should be just that. We do have to be wary of people trying to hijack them for jingoistic or other reasons. They are about taking a moment to reflect on those that have died in conflicts, whether we think of them as just or otherwise,

 

I attend the Hearts service at Haymarket and lay a wreath on behalf of the members of jkb. Personally, I think about my great uncle who joined the Royal Scots and died in France in ww1 and how that must have impacted my family, particularly my grandad who lost a big brother at a young age. I also think about the Hearts players and supporters who joined up for various reasons and never came back. I Feel I have an affinity with them through me and my dad/grandad supporting the club. The ceremony also always reminds me of the true cost of wars and re-inforces my view that we should avoid them as much as possible.

 

 

[Holyrood_Hearts]

The last 2-3 years, McClean has refused to wear a poppy on his jersey and that's entirely his decision.

 

Quite why him/Wigan decided to go public yesterday with this letter to Dave Whelan is baffling. All this did was draw more attention onto the player.

 

Would anyone attending or watching last night's even have noticed he wasn't wearing one. I doubt it.

[JamboX2]

Could he not have a white poppy shirt? These clubs make a lot. Don't see why they can't afford one with a white poppy on it.

[jamboron]

As others have posted it`s his decision whether or not to wear a poppy, but I`d love to know what his view is on a few years ago when Irish Americans were appealling in pubs and clubs, for folk to donate a $ to buy a bullet to kill a Brit during the troubles.