Wigan James McLean refuses to wear poppy shirt

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

If you want to make a point to prove me wrong, go ahead. Patronizing or not, i'm right. Wearing a poppy is a political statement, and you feeling it's not doesnt change that.

There is no point trying to prove you wrong because you apparently know my thoughts better than I do.

 

Next you will be telling me that the suit my poppy is on this morning is making some sort of statement too because others will have a perception of it.

[2NaFish]

There is no point trying to prove you wrong because you apparently know my thoughts better than I do.

 

 

I repeat, your thoughts are inconsequential to whether you're making a statement.

[Paolo]

 

 

 

if it wasn't making a statement there would be no point wearing it. it does and you are.

 

I wore one. So what statement was I making? Please enlighten me.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

I repeat, your thoughts are inconsequential to whether you're making a statement.

So tell me what it is?

[Neil Jung]

 

 

 

If you want to make a point to prove me wrong, go ahead. Patronizing or not, i'm right. Wearing a poppy is a political statement, and you feeling it's not doesnt change that.

How's it a political statement?

[Maroon Sailor]

Fish Boy is at it again I see.

 

[Chester™]

Keep that patronisation flowing...

Hello Glass house!

[2NaFish]

I wore one. So what statement was I making? Please enlighten me.

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

So tell me what it is?

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

How's it a political statement?

 

It's a public declaration of how things should be. It's not party political, but it's most certainly political.

[Maroon Sailor]

More pish from the fish

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

There is no point trying to prove you wrong because you apparently know my thoughts better than I do.

 

Next you will be telling me that the suit my poppy is on this morning is making some sort of statement too because others will have a perception of it.

Is it a made to measure suit or just of the peg?

[Paolo]

 

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

 

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

 

 

It's a public declaration of how things should be. It's not party political, but it's most certainly political.

 

I am not telling anyone to remember anything. I am certainly not saying anything political.

[2NaFish]

I am not telling anyone to remember anything. I am certainly not saying anything political.

 

Then why are you wearing a symbol? If it was purely personal and private you wouldnt broadcast it with a poppy. You are saying how the world should be and that's political.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

 

 

That we should remember the fallen. Fairly obvious, no?

 

 

 

It's a public declaration of how things should be. It's not party political, but it's most certainly political.

You obviously don't know my mind as well as you think you do.

[2NaFish]

You obviously don't know my mind as well as you think you do.

 

3rd time. Your mind is inconsequential to what the symbol means in the public sphere. Make a point if you can, but can you please stop justifying why you feel something isnt in the public sphere by saying what your private views are. The two things don't crossover.

[Socrates]

For someone like McClean, wearing a poppy clearly is a political decision. You might think it shouldn't be, but it's denying reality to say that it isn't a political decision for him.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

3rd time. Your mind is inconsequential to what the symbol means in the public sphere. Make a point if you can, but can you please stop justifying why you feel something isnt in the public sphere by saying what your private views are. The two things don't crossover.

You see, this is where we differ. My reason for wearing my poppy is to remember what my Grandad endured during WW2. By knowing what he went through, it allows me to appreciate what soldiers go through in war, living and dead. You are allowing your view of seeing someone wearing a poppy to prejudice why they are wearing it.

 

[Socrates]

You see, this is where we differ. My reason for wearing my poppy is to remember what my Grandad endured during WW2. By knowing what he went through, it allows me to appreciate what soldiers go through in war, living and dead. You are allowing your view of seeing someone wearing a poppy to prejudice why they are wearing it.

 

Are you not doing exactly the same to people who say that they don't want to wear it for political reasons?

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

The poppy is a poignant tribute to those who fell. So is this. It marks the sacrifice of my great uncle, one of six brothers from the same family to serve in WW1. Their father served also. Two of the brothers did not come home.

 

(The image is small, but the inscription says "He died for freedom and honour.")

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Are you not doing exactly the same to people who say that they don't want to wear it for political reasons?

I've no problem with someone not wearing it. I will call them out, however, for weasel words like McClean used. His past statements show them up for what they are. If he had said that he was an Irish republican and hated the British Army that at least would be honest.

[2NaFish]

You see, this is where we differ. My reason for wearing my poppy is to remember what my Grandad endured during WW2. By knowing what he went through, it allows me to appreciate what soldiers go through in war, living and dead. You are allowing your view of seeing someone wearing a poppy to prejudice why they are wearing it.

 

That's you explaining what goes on in your mind. You're welcome to that and it's, to me, admirable. It's personal and we've already established that. But it's not private. It is a declaration and therefore becomes part of the public sphere and therefore political.

 

The poppy means something beyond what your views on it. It does this because it has entered the public sphere. That doesnt mean it is necessarily contentious or even divisive; but it's political. In asserting your right to hold your own personal views, you ignore the variety of views held by the public. The poppy, and the wearing of the poppy, means different things to different people, coming from northern ireland i'm sure you appreciate that more than most; and those meanings ascribed are political, ergo the poppy is political.

 

It may transcend party politics, but not politics.

 

I've no problem with someone not wearing it. I will call them out, however, for weasel words like McClean used. His past statements show them up for what they are. If he had said that he was an Irish republican and hated the British Army that at least would be honest.

 

His being wrong or disingenuous doesn't mean it's not a political statement. Lots of political statements are wrong and disingenuous. Most probably.

[smiler]

Fish give it up, you're boring the crap out me.

[2NaFish]

Fish give it up, you're boring the crap out me.

 

You know where the ignore button is.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

Fish give it up, you're boring the crap out me.

 

He's bored the CARP out of me !

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

That's you explaining what goes on in your mind. You're welcome to that and it's, to me, admirable. It's personal and we've already established that. But it's not private. It is a declaration and therefore becomes part of the public sphere and therefore political.

 

The poppy means something beyond what your views on it. It does this because it has entered the public sphere. That doesnt mean it is necessarily contentious or even divisive; but it's political. In asserting your right to hold your own personal views, you ignore the variety of views held by the public. The poppy, and the wearing of the poppy, means different things to different people, coming from northern ireland i'm sure you appreciate that more than most; and those meanings ascribed are political, ergo the poppy is political.

 

It may transcend party politics, but not politics.

 

 

 

His being wrong or disingenuous doesn't mean it's not a political statement. Lots of political statements are wrong and disingenuous. Most probably.

I respectfully disagree. I used to wear my Boys Brigade badge on my school uniform. You probably see that as political too.

 

As for McClean, I actually don't care if his motivation was personal or political but if he goes on the record, it is right and proper to call out if the reasons given are BS.

[smiler]

 

 

 

You know where the ignore button is.

 

Help me out, is it in the 'public sphere'?

[Back to 2005]

Fish give it up, you're boring the crap out me.

Seconded.

[jambo89]

so because the poppy I've chosen to wear is visible to the public I am making a political statement?

 

What about hats?

 

What kind of political statement am I sending out when I wear a watch?

[2NaFish]

Help me out, is it in the 'public sphere'?

 

Yes. Since you ask, yes.

 

I respectfully disagree. I used to wear my Boys Brigade badge on my school uniform. You probably see that as political too..

 

The group who's motto is 'the advancement of christ's kingdom amongst boys'? Just a smidge political.

[2NaFish]

so because the poppy I've chosen to wear is visible to the public I am making a political statement?

 

What about hats?

 

What kind of political statement am I sending out when I wear a watch?

 

objects mean things. they are created and chosen for a purpose.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Yes. Since you ask, yes.

 

 

 

The group who's motto is 'the advancement of christ's kingdom amongst boys'? Just a smidge political.

Cool. Must decide if I put a tie on tomorrow or not so that I can make a statement of some sort.

[2NaFish]

Seconded.

 

Don't like it? Don't read it.

 

It's a thread about personal expression and politics. If you want dick jokes look elsewhere.

[2NaFish]

Cool. Must decide if I put a tie on tomorrow or not so that I can make a statement of some sort.

 

Perhaps you could go sans-culottes and really make a political statement. http://en.wikipedia....i/Sans-culottes

 

Y'see how even the wearing of apparentl innocuous clothes can yet be highly political? And yet you don't think a poppy is political.

[Back to 2005]

 

 

Don't like it? Don't read it.

 

It's a thread about personal exp<b></b>ression and politics. If you want dick jokes look elsewhere.

Dick jokes? It's a good debate if you take out your predictably patronising input.

[OTT]

Don't like it? Don't read it.

 

It's a thread about personal expression and politics. If you want dick jokes look elsewhere.

If you want politics go to the shed. (thirded btw)

Mcleans being a dick. If he feels so strongly perhaps he could go play in another league.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Perhaps you could go sans-culottes and really make a political statement. http://en.wikipedia....i/Sans-culottes

 

Y'see how even the wearing of apparentl innocuous clothes can yet be highly political? And yet you don't think a poppy is political.

So the humble pair of trousers is political too? You can't escape politics in your world!

[2NaFish]

So the humble pair of trousers is political too? You can't escape politics in your world!

 

The french revolution was political Geoff.

 

 

Dick jokes? It's a good debate if you take out your predictably patronising input.

 

Well then, don't read it.

 

If you want politics go to the shed. (thirded btw)

Mcleans being a dick. If he feels so strongly perhaps he could go play in another league.

 

Don't like it, don't read it. If you think it's off topic then complain to a mod.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

The french revolution was political Geoff.

 

 

 

 

Well then, don't read it.

 

 

 

Don't like it, don't read it. If you think it's off topic then complain to a mod.

Of course it was political. Over 200 years on are they still political? No.

 

Was the idea of remembrance political? Initially, no, as it was inspired by survivors remembering their comrades. Did it become political? Undoubtedly. Does that mean that it therefore has a monopoly on the symbol? No.

[2NaFish]

Of course it was political. Over 200 years on are they still political? No.

 

Was the idea of remembrance political? Initially, no, as it was inspired by survivors remembering their comrades. Did it become political? Undoubtedly. Does that mean that it therefore has a monopoly on the symbol? No.

 

I never said it had a monopoly on the symbol. But i'm glad to see you agree that it's political.

 

If there's nothing else...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

I never said it had a monopoly on the symbol. But i'm glad to see you agree that it's political.

 

If there's nothing else...

I think you missed the point but if it makes you happy, you bash on.

[Creepy Lurker]

I knew when I posted that that people would pick up on my use of the word 'political'.

 

Firstly, 'politics' transcends party politics. We're ideological creatures, and arguably even the smallest of our actions are to some extent ideologically motivated. When I said that wearing the poppy was a political action, I was operating within a very safe and accepted definition of politics.

 

What wearing one says can be summarised, in its most basic form, as 'remembering the fallen is a good thing to do'. Whether or not this is what it means to an individual wearing it, by putting it on they're transmitting that message.

 

I think that most of us would agree that that's a reasonable message. Is disagreement unreasonable? That depends on the motives: those expressed by McLean are reasonable, whereas some of us suspect that his real motives may be less so. What's definitely unreasonable is expecting an individual to make a statement in this way. What he's being attacked for here isn't making a negativr statement but failing to make (what we consider to be) a positive one. Bear in mind that he only even wrote his open letter as a response to public criticism.

 

If he hadn't been in the ridiculous and sinister situation of being asked by his employer to make a statement then he would've just not worn a poppy, as millions of others are doing. I'd guess that the majority of Britons don't wear a poppy (although not for political reasons). The issues here are with his being asked by his employer to wear a poppy and with his being criticised for not reflecting the views of the majority. Regardless of what type of person is, he has in this instance done nothing worthy of criticism.

[2NaFish]

Creepy does it, but he doesn't make it boring. That's the key. Gotta get me some of that.

[Sheriff Fatman]

If you want politics go to the shed. (thirded btw)

Mcleans being a dick. If he feels so strongly perhaps he could go play in another league.

 

Way to go. Three sentences, two opposite sentiments.

 

Sad to say that isn't even close to being a record on here.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I knew when I posted that that people would pick up on my use of the word 'political'.

 

Firstly, 'politics' transcends party politics. We're ideological creatures, and arguably even the smallest of our actions are to some extent ideologically motivated. When I said that wearing the poppy was a political action, I was operating within a very safe and accepted definition of politics.

 

What wearing one says can be summarised, in its most basic form, as 'remembering the fallen is a good thing to do'. Whether or not this is what it means to an individual wearing it, by putting it on they're transmitting that message.

 

I think that most of us would agree that that's a reasonable message. Is disagreement unreasonable? That depends on the motives: those expressed by McLean are reasonable, whereas some of us suspect that his real motives may be less so. What's definitely unreasonable is expecting an individual to make a statement in this way. What he's being attacked for here isn't making a negativr statement but failing to make (what we consider to be) a positive one. Bear in mind that he only even wrote his open letter as a response to public criticism.

 

If he hadn't been in the ridiculous and sinister situation of being asked by his employer to make a statement then he would've just not worn a poppy, as millions of others are doing. I'd guess that the majority of Britons don't wear a poppy (although not for political reasons). The issues here are with his being asked by his employer to wear a poppy and with his being criticised for not reflecting the views of the majority. Regardless of what type of person is, he has in this instance done nothing worthy of criticism.

Leaving aside the "politics" debate, I agree that McClean shouldn't have to make a statement on something that is a personal choice. However, if he chooses to make a statement that is open to criticism.

[Creepy Lurker]

 

Leaving aside the "politics" debate, I agree that McClean shouldn't have to make a statement on something that is a personal choice. However, if he chooses to make a statement that is open to criticism.

 

That's fair, although at the same time he only made a statement in the first place as a response to criticism. Arguably in doing so he legitimised the original criticism when the more dignified thing to do would have been ignore it.

 

What I would say is that most of the criticism here has nothing to do with the statement, instead starting from the assumption that it's a pack of lies. That assumption may be true (personally I think that it's probably more complicated than a binary true/false scenario. He probably both respects those who died in the World Wars and is an IRA supporting bigot), but it functions independently of the statement and is essentially the same criticism which was being made before he released the open letter. For that reason I don't think that a lot of what's being said on here can be justified on the grounds you'd given; had he said nothing at all, the same people would still be making the same criticisms (if they were aware of his not wearing a poppy at all).

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

That's fair, although at the same time he only made a statement in the first place as a response to criticism. Arguably in doing so he legitimised the original criticism when the more dignified thing to do would have been ignore it.

 

What I would say is that most of the criticism here has nothing to do with the statement, instead starting from the assumption that it's a pack of lies. That assumption may be true (personally I think that it's probably more complicated than a binary true/false scenario. He probably both respects those who died in the World Wars and is an IRA supporting bigot), but it functions independently of the statement and is essentially the same criticism which was being made before he released the open letter. For that reason I don't think that a lot of what's being said on here can be justified on the grounds you'd given; had he said nothing at all, the same people would still be making the same criticisms (if they were aware of his not wearing a poppy at all).

I agree that people would still criticise him if he said nothing (see comments on Septic not wearing poppy tops as supporting evidence). However, had he said nothing he would enjoy much more support in exercising that choice.

 

To me, if you go on the record it makes sense to be honest. Martin McGuinness has earned far more respect than Gerry Adams for admitting he was in the IRA and unashamedly so. Adams still refuses to, on the other hand, even though it is plainly obvious he was.

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

In interesting and thought provoking article in the Guardian last year from Harry Smith about why is he is going to stop wearing the poppy.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=share_btn_fb

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

In interesting and thought provoking article in the Guardian last year from Harry Smith about why is he is going to stop wearing the poppy.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=share_btn_fb

Very good article.

[Kiwidoug]

In interesting and thought provoking article in the Guardian last year from Harry Smith about why is he is going to stop wearing the poppy.

 

http://www.theguardi...MP=share_btn_fb

 

To somewhat misquote Victor Meldrew, I'm not quite sure what language Mr Smith is speaking but I think it might be Bollocks.