Malaysian Airlines plane down over Ukraine/Russia border [SEE ADMIN WARNING ABOUT PICS/VIDS]

[Dean Winchester]

Is that an official quote? If so it is disgusting and distasteful on the day of this atrocity.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Paraphrased I think.

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin: "This tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine.

 

"And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy."

[Debut 4]

 

 

 

You could say that about pretty much anything. For all we know the UK could have the biggest military capability in the world. I'd say that's pretty unlikely though.

 

It's fairly standard to form an opinion based on the facts available to you.

I get what you are saying but we are talking the USA here. I'd hazard a guess and say they are quite powerful and a formidable force for anyone to take on.

 

What gets me the most is people who run to the internet to get stuck into them. There's some right idiots in this country who continually belittle their own or their allies but they'd be the first to look for help and hide behind the ones they slag off if we ever did get to the nitty gritty of war. Almost gloating about other countries power as if they are proud of it. Puzzling stuff?

[ToYouToMe]

I get what you are saying but we are talking the USA here. I'd hazard a guess and say they are quite powerful and a formidable force for anyone to take on.

 

What gets me the most is people who run to the internet to get stuck into them. There's some right idiots in this country who continually belittle their own or their allies but they'd be the first to look for help and hide behind the ones they slag off if we ever did get to the nitty gritty of war. Almost gloating about other countries power as if they are proud of it. Puzzling stuff?

 

The same types no doubt who think Tommy Sheridan and George Galloway are intellectual giants.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Jambos_1874]

For those doubting the military strength of the US compared to Russia, please see here:

 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=united-states-of-america&country2=russia&Submit=Compare+Countries

 

Porbably not particularly accurate but it puts things in to persepective.

 

Back on topic, this is absolutely shocking news. I hope those responsible are located and punished.

[Jabba]

People presuming to know what action any nations will take want to give it a rest. Also, point scoring and bickering on a topic like this, get a ******* grip of yourselves.

 

John Kerry has already released a statement saying that if it was Russian backed separatists then this could see the US supplying Ukraine with military hardware to defend themselves and that would "just be the start".

 

None of us have any idea how far this could go, there's no way that anyone can rule out more nations becoming involved in the conflict. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gregory House M.D.]

I'm not going to drag this off topic but I'd suggest people have very good arguments for not being all that keen on the view that the USA are the worlds leading light.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

When Lockerbie occurred, did the US invade Iran or Syria, the perpetrators? No, they framed a Libyan for political reasons. In a similar fashion, the maximum political capital will be extracted from Russia in the aftermath of this event.

[Jabba]

When Lockerbie occurred, did the US invade Iran or Syria, the perpetrators? No, they framed a Libyan for political reasons. In a similar fashion, the maximum political capital will be extracted from Russia in the aftermath of this event.

 

Hopefully so. If those tweets from the former Russian agent are genuine then I bet he disappears in the near future. He's probably just forced Russia to pull out of Ukraine and cost them billions. Let's hope that's the way it goes.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ulysses]

 

These are different times. In some ways more unpredictable.

 

 

They were different times as well, y'know. Just saying.

 

From a geopolitical and strategic perspective, what's your sense of why I posted what I posted? And in what way does the fact that 2014 is different to 1983 matter in that context?

[jamboinglasgow]

Seems at the moment that it is straight forward, Russia has been arming the rebels, and to help them sent these anti-air missiles to shoot down Ukraine military planes, this has been successful. Today the rebels shot down what they thought was a Ukraine military plane but was a commercial airliner. There will be much sabre rattling over the coming weeks, the West blaming Russia for arming the rebels with such weapons and calling for them to end their support. Russia will call this unfortunate and regrettable, but says the rebels have the right to defend themselves against Ukraine's unjust government, they will call for the rebels to ensure such a tragedy will never happen again. US and Europe will increase sanctions, Russia will retaliate with similar diplomatic actions. But nothing huge will happen.

 

Airliners actually have a history of getting shot down near tense areas and its quite common. Think the US shot down an Iranian airliner in the late 80s early 90s.

[Sydney]

There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it.

 

We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead.

 

 

 

I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane.

[Jabba]

There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it.

 

We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead.

 

 

 

I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane.

 

They reckon there were a lot of AIDS and HIV specialists on board. A huge loss for medical advancement if true.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Cue some tinfoil wearer claiming that the cure for AIDS has been killed off by the CIA/shape shifting lizards/Bilderbergers...

[Peebo]

There really are some remarkably clueless posts on this thread.

[Norm]

You've got 300 civilian deaths caused by a bunch of pro-Russian Ukrainian terrorists.

 

I reckon the help the Ukraine has been looking for in wiping these guys out will not be shortcoming.

 

 

[Sergei Malatov]

The New York Times has released audio clips that Ukarine apparently intercepted from the separatists.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000003007434/intercepted-audio-of-ukraine-separatists.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld

[Jabba]

Heard the translations on the radio this morning on my way to work (in WA). A major was on the scene and passing on messages that they had shot down a passenger plane and not an enemy plane. There's seemingly no doubt who it was or that they were unaware it was civilian.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jabba

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

God knows where this is going to go. One thing's for sure though - time to kick the shit out of Putin. He's had it coming for years

[Gregory House M.D.]

Seems at the moment that it is straight forward, Russia has been arming the rebels, and to help them sent these anti-air missiles to shoot down Ukraine military planes, this has been successful. Today the rebels shot down what they thought was a Ukraine military plane but was a commercial airliner. There will be much sabre rattling over the coming weeks, the West blaming Russia for arming the rebels with such weapons and calling for them to end their support. Russia will call this unfortunate and regrettable, but says the rebels have the right to defend themselves against Ukraine's unjust government, they will call for the rebels to ensure such a tragedy will never happen again. US and Europe will increase sanctions, Russia will retaliate with similar diplomatic actions. But nothing huge will happen.

 

Airliners actually have a history of getting shot down near tense areas and its quite common. Think the US shot down an Iranian airliner in the late 80s early 90s.

 

IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase.

[Ibrahim Tall]

This isn't actually even the first time a passenger planes been shot down over/near Ukraine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

 

For the record I'm not linking the two, just stating a fact.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ibrahim Tall

[Paolo]

It is amazing how many people on here seem to know what happened, know who is to blame, and know what should or will happen next.

[rossthejambo]

 

 

IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase.

 

The EU have just put sanctions on Russia over the last few days, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Deevers]

 

 

 

IIRC Europe has no sanctions in place to increase.

 

 

Exactly. Germany drives Europe and Germany needs Russian gas - so no EU sanctions. Interesting to see what happens next on that front.

[ToYouToMe]

 

 

 

Exactly. Germany drives Europe and Germany needs Russian gas - so no EU sanctions. Interesting to see what happens next on that front.

 

Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Swarlos]

People presuming to know what action any nations will take want to give it a rest. Also, point scoring and bickering on a topic like this, get a ******* grip of yourselves.

 

John Kerry has already released a statement saying that if it was Russian backed separatists then this could see the US supplying Ukraine with military hardware to defend themselves and that would "just be the start".

 

None of us have any idea how far this could go, there's no way that anyone can rule out more nations becoming involved in the conflict. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Why shouldn't people discuss and debate the ramifications? This is a forum after all.

 

Of course we shouldn't resort to point scoring and bickering but it seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't be speculating at all.

[ArcticJambo]

There is a big medical conference in Melbourne this week, and some of the people on the plane were heading to it.

 

We've lost some fantastic medical minds in this incident - one fo the world's leading researchers into HIV has been confirmed as dead.

 

 

 

I am more angry about this event than I have been about anything for a long time. It will be another case of **** ups causing this. No one wanted to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane.

 

This is what grinds on me. We, as in the general public, lay-folks are essentially in the hands of experts who should know better. Why are commercial airlines for example being allowed to fly over such a volatile airspace irrespective of ceiling height. Why is it even possible for a tracking system to be turned off on a 300 million dollar plane.

 

Far more money needs to be invested in systems analysis and risk management.

[IMA MAROON]

You've got 300 civilian deaths caused by a bunch of pro-Russian Ukrainian terrorists.

 

I reckon the help the Ukraine has been looking for in wiping these guys out will not be shortcoming.

 

An eye for an eye.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Why are all the reports now not confirming if any Americans were on board ?

[Andy Nips]

Why are all the reports now not confirming if any Americans were on board ?

 

I noticed that on the BBC report.

 

BBC also saying: "Pictures have emerged showing a convoy of pro-Russian militants allegedly transporting the Buk surface-to-air system to the location from which it supposedly shot down the Malaysian airliner. "

[Jabba]

 

Why shouldn't people discuss and debate the ramifications? This is a forum after all.

 

Of course we shouldn't resort to point scoring and bickering but it seems like you're suggesting we shouldn't be speculating at all.

 

That's not what I was suggesting. My point was aimed at people dismissing certain courses of action out of hand and thinking they know for sure how it will pan out.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Flying over Germany recently I was surprised by the number of wind farms, so I think they are moving in that direction but gas still drives their economy.

[Deevers]

 

 

Well Germany needs to diversify and quickly.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas. Edited July 18, 2014 by Deevers

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It is amazing how many people on here seem to know what happened, know who is to blame, and know what should or will happen next.

 

I think most people are capable of adding 2 and 2, that's all

[Stewart MacD]

I hope the US (at least McCain and Kerry) doesn't start tut-tutting at countries who supply sophisticated weaponry to non-governmental organisations (or to nasty governments).

[Don Dan]

Now reported that a couple of Newcastle Utd fans on way to New Zealand to support the club have died on this flight.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

The claim that the black boxes have been sent to Russia worries me. Next we will hear they are so damaged that no data can be recovered.

[Stewart MacD]

I wonder how long it will take before the Australians agitate for the next World Cup to be stripped from Russia, just so their woefully own underdeveloped football infrastructure can host it.

[Jabba]

The claim that the black boxes have been sent to Russia worries me. Next we will hear they are so damaged that no data can be recovered.

 

That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boris]

They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas.

They won't - they will do exactly what's in Germany's best interests and will bully the rest of Europe into falling in line with them. The EU having been on of the main instigators in the Ukraine crisis have been prominent in their failure to take any really meaningful action to curb the Russians expansionist ambitions there. There can only really be one reason for their rather feeble behaviour and that is Germany's reliance on Russian natural gas.

 

But if the Germans "run" the EU, why would the EU get so involved in the Ukraine in the first place, thus antagonising Russia?

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not confirmed but if true proves the rebels are in closed cahoots with the Russian authorities.

[Deevers]

 

 

 

But if the Germans "run" the EU, why would the EU get so involved in the Ukraine in the first place, thus antagonising Russia?

All about expansionism and markets Boris. The EU encouraged Ukraine to start the process of becoming part of it little thinking that it would have the consequences that it did have. The Russians have become alarmed at the EU knocking on their door and "stealing" what they see as their area of influence. This was always going to have unpleasant consequences.

[Say What Again]

That's a horrendous attempt at covering up the facts. The US were demanding the crash site remain untouched for an independent inquiry. That's the polar opposite.

 

Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself.

[Don Dan]

Russia now claiming that there was radar activity from a Ukrainian BUK missile system, supposedly. It wisnae me honest officer!

[Don Dan]

 

 

 

Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself.

 

The problem arises in what is done with the Black Box and if it is handed over to the air investigators without having been interfered with. Time will tell if the box has been tampered with.

[Jabba]

 

Had the crash happened on US soil, and Russia demanded the crash site remain untouched, do you think American would have complied and not touched the black box? I can't see it myself.

 

Not for a minute mate. Doesn't make it any more acceptable though. I heard reports of them picking through the wreckage pretty much as soon as they arrived on the scene.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

We should be bombing the Kremlin by now.

[Boris]

We should be bombing the Kremlin by now.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

This.

 

Dis.

 

Dat.

[Deevers]

 

 

 

Not for a minute mate. Doesn't make it any more acceptable though. I heard reports of them picking through the wreckage pretty much as soon as they arrived on the scene.

 

No doubt looting any of the valuables they could find!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lewis2006]

I wonder how long it will take before the Australians agitate for the next World Cup to be stripped from Russia, just so their woefully own underdeveloped football infrastructure can host it.