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The Sevco existential debate - ***SEE ADMIN NOTE IN POST #1***

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Toxteth O'Grady

 

"A two horse race is better than a one horse race". Lolz. Clearly the 25,000 who stayed away from Ibrox in the early 80s thought the same thing when Aberdeen and Dundee Utd were battling it out.

 

Ah but that wiznae the right 2 horses.

 

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Charlie-Brown

Aye good one Bryce even if all the first teams fans agreed to having you removed from Scottish Fitba which I am sure would be a given, nobody wants you anyway.

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bryce9a

There is no old firm, and the festering mini me that spawned out of the rotting corpse of Rankers already are gone from the SPL.

Refreshing alternatives to the tried-and-tested "cancerous" and "putrid", though "rotting corpse" a little clich?d. Interesting twist on the 'mini me' metaphor with the "festering" adjective, inviting the imagery of acrid boils seeping with septicemic bigotry, which i will credit was your intention (nice). Overall, impressive :-)

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bryce9a

You don?t have a bullet point explanation and timeline of what happened?

 

I did read a blog/thread a while back but it was pretty long winded and you get quite lost. (And here is one coming up :))

 

I think the key basis was that clubs have certain dates to confirm that player, other club dues and tax payments are up to date in line with agreements or are in reasonable dispute, if not. And Rangers had been less than truthful in their end of the self certification process.

 

Maybe it was another case of once the governing body has accepted the lie, there is nothing that can be done?

 

Anyway, by the time Uefa have to be informed by the SFA if any club hasn?t met the criteria, most Scottish clubs are out of Europe. If anything Celtic fans should be asking their board to sue Rangers in liquidation. Mind you if it is true that the SPFL are considering chasing NewCo for the LNS enquiry fine, Lawwell is biding his time to go after them too.

 

Then again, now that he (Lawwell) is on the SFA Professional Board, maybe he is aspiring to future SFA, Uefa and Fifa positions and doesn?t want to rock the boat?

The Celtic fans pursuing this are furious that the board have urged shareholders to vote against a resolution to pursue the matter. Apparently they raised the issue with uefa at the time and uefa gave it all the green light.

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bryce9a

You wouldn't leave. Reserve clubs and continuing to be represented in Scottish and League Cups, with a 'deal' that 'returning from injury' first team players are allowed to play cross border. And I'd blame the other clubs as much as the authorities and the OF who would allow it all for the sake of a few ?100k of dirty money.

If the model followed was the welsh clubs, i dont think the likes of Cardiff etc compete in any welsh only competitions.

 

The old firm leaving seems the only solution to making Scottish football something other than a 1 or 2 horse race, at least in terms of the league. The "no to newco" campaign was so successful, it does seem like a possibility that non-OF Scottish clubs could unite again to break what they all want broken - the Glasgow monopoly that doesn't seem to benefit anyone in the long term.

 

i understand the "England" doesnt want them thing but if the entry was made at a lower enough tier, eg conference level, id be amazed if clubs crying out for an injection of cash didnt consider it.

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King of the North

Refreshing alternatives to the tried-and-tested "cancerous" and "putrid", though "rotting corpse" a little clich?d. Interesting twist on the 'mini me' metaphor with the "festering" adjective, inviting the imagery of acrid boils seeping with septicemic bigotry, which i will credit was your intention (nice). Overall, impressive :-)

 

You do realise you are on a hearts forum?

 

Perhaps blatantly taking the p out of the locals is something you should try to avoid.

 

Typical hun arrogance that you think that is ok.

 

Can't work out your agenda for being here. You've failed to convince anyone of your same club delusions, [modedit], you seemed to be trying sycophancy for a while and now you are taking the p out of long standing contributors to this forum.

 

Can't you find a hun forum where your sort will be more welcome?

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milky_26

If the model followed was the welsh clubs, i dont think the likes of Cardiff etc compete in any welsh only competitions.

 

The old firm leaving seems the only solution to making Scottish football something other than a 1 or 2 horse race, at least in terms of the league. The "no to newco" campaign was so successful, it does seem like a possibility that non-OF Scottish clubs could unite again to break what they all want broken - the Glasgow monopoly that doesn't seem to benefit anyone in the long term.

 

i understand the "England" doesnt want them thing but if the entry was made at a lower enough tier, eg conference level, id be amazed if clubs crying out for an injection of cash didnt consider it.

it would have to be at the bottom tier, look at afc wimbledon they had to start at the bottom, and you can guarantee that attendances for both sides of the arsecheek would suffer

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sandylejambo

 

I keep logging into this thread in the hope of more revelations from Charlotte Fakes. all it seems to be is some hun trying to convince Hearts supporters that his old club and his new club are the same club, we are never going to convince him they aren't, or in fact he works for their PR and this is his job, cut him loose for **** sake, he's part of the trouble with Scottish football, we are giving him a voice that he doesn't merit, do one Lurckio

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bryce9a

You do realise you are on a hearts forum?

 

Perhaps blatantly taking the p out of the locals is something you should try to avoid.

 

Typical hun arrogance that you think that is ok.

 

Can't work out your agenda for being here. You've failed to convince anyone of your same club delusions, you failed to get any of us to join in with your anti catholic sash bash, you seemed to be trying sycophancy for a while and now you are taking the p out of long standing contributors to this forum.

 

Can't you find a hun forum where your sort will be more welcome?

Just a bit of harmless humour. Lighten up, mate.

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alwaysthereinspirit

 

If the model followed was the welsh clubs, i dont think the likes of Cardiff etc compete in any welsh only competitions.

 

The old firm leaving seems the only solution to making Scottish football something other than a 1 or 2 horse race, at least in terms of the league. The "no to newco" campaign was so successful, it does seem like a possibility that non-OF Scottish clubs could unite again to break what they all want broken - the Glasgow monopoly that doesn't seem to benefit anyone in the long term.

 

i understand the "England" doesnt want them thing but if the entry was made at a lower enough tier, eg conference level, id be amazed if clubs crying out for an injection of cash didnt consider it.

There will never be a day English police forces allow scum to travel willy nilly through the English countryside 44 weekends a year destroying everything in their path. Just my opinion mind you. Don't bother answering because your past history proves me correct. I don't need you pleading your case.

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DETTY29

The Celtic fans pursuing this are furious that the board have urged shareholders to vote against a resolution to pursue the matter. Apparently they raised the issue with uefa at the time and uefa gave it all the green light.

In fairness I should have added that I've read that Reagan mentioned on Sportscene yesterday that Rangers hadn't done anything wrong - but I missed the 10 minute edit window.

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King of the North

 

Just a bit of harmless humour. Lighten up, mate.

 

Again, you do realise this is a Hearts forum? Mate?

 

You should be perfectly aware of how many people here find your football club utterly contemptible. In every way. If you think those fans are fair game for you to be able to rip the Mickey out of, then fair enough, if you are able to get away with it. Says a lot about the hun arrogance that you would behave in such a manner when a guest.

 

 

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Torness Tam

There will never be a day English police forces allow scum to travel willy nilly through the English countryside 44 weekends a year destroying everything in their path. Just my opinion mind you. Don't bother answering because your past history proves me correct. I don't need you pleading your case.

Yeah Better to have them traveling willy nilly through the Scottish countryside causing next to no bother at all

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alwaysthereinspirit

 

If the model followed was the welsh clubs, i dont think the likes of Cardiff etc compete in any welsh only competitions.

 

The old firm leaving seems the only solution to making Scottish football something other than a 1 or 2 horse race, at least in terms of the league. The "no to newco" campaign was so successful, it does seem like a possibility that non-OF Scottish clubs could unite again to break what they all want broken - the Glasgow monopoly that doesn't seem to benefit anyone in the long term.

 

i understand the "England" doesnt want them thing but if the entry was made at a lower enough tier, eg conference level, id be amazed if clubs crying out for an injection of cash didnt consider it.

Yeah Better to have them traveling willy nilly through the Scottish countryside causing next to no bother at all

Welcome to OUR board OF lover.

 

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Rick Grimes

Yeah Better to have them traveling willy nilly through the Scottish countryside causing next to no bother at all

 

I've got plenty of mates in Manchester who will testify as to how well they travel.

 

Of course that was mainly Chelsea fans and police provocation... :rolleyes:

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Torness Tam

No problem---Just to put you in the picture--jambos since 84 ish --married to--in your opinion scum. Me-Rangers up to that point, moved to Dunbar for work and Jamboised soon thereafter, never had any interest in religious posturing , or religion itself for that matter. I WAS a Rangers man cos my Grampa took me as a kid, simple as that. Now im a Jambo and my boy is too cos I took him to Gorgie as a kid. Just got miffed cos you called my wife scum is all.

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Torness Tam

I've got plenty of mates in Manchester who will testify as to how well they travel.

 

Of course that was mainly Chelsea fans and police provocation... :rolleyes:

Fair point, no arguments here. new to this forum lark as I only just got internet savvy, maybe its all perfectly normal to call folk scum. If so carry on

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kingantti1874

No problem---Just to put you in the picture--jambos since 84 ish --married to--in your opinion scum. Me-Rangers up to that point, moved to Dunbar for work and Jamboised soon thereafter, never had any interest in religious posturing , or religion itself for that matter. I WAS a Rangers man cos my Grampa took me as a kid, simple as that. Now im a Jambo and my boy is too cos I took him to Gorgie as a kid. Just got miffed cos you called my wife scum is all.

 

Don't take it so personally, virtually every member of my family is a bear bar me and my dad.. And they are all twats (kidding).. Na I'm not, from a football perspective they are twats :lol: and I love telling them so...

 

Knuckle dragging plebs.. :lol:

Edited by kingantti1874

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Guest Bilel Mohsni

Celtic and Sevco leaving would just make them stronger, and would see more Scottish supporters following them in their rich new league set up. For anything like that to work, they would have to leave Scotland, geographically. This won't happen.

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Guest Bilel Mohsni

Double

Edited by Sir David Attenborough

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niblick1874

Fair point, no arguments here. new to this forum lark as I only just got internet savvy, maybe its all perfectly normal to call folk scum. If so carry on

This is not a good thread to cut your teeth on,

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Sheriff Fatman

Refreshing alternatives to the tried-and-tested "cancerous" and "putrid", though "rotting corpse" a little clich?d. Interesting twist on the 'mini me' metaphor with the "festering" adjective, inviting the imagery of acrid boils seeping with septicemic bigotry, which i will credit was your intention (nice). Overall, impressive :-)

 

Thanks, now if you could expand your intellect into understanding that the club you supported is no more and the one you now support is making exactly the same mistakes as the one it bought a building and a pitch from.

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alwaysthereinspirit

 

No problem---Just to put you in the picture--jambos since 84 ish --married to--in your opinion scum. Me-Rangers up to that point, moved to Dunbar for work and Jamboised soon thereafter, never had any interest in religious posturing , or religion itself for that matter. I WAS a Rangers man cos my Grampa took me as a kid, simple as that. Now im a Jambo and my boy is too cos I took him to Gorgie as a kid. Just got miffed cos you called my wife scum is all.

Would never dream of calling your wife scum as I don't know her.

Assuming she wasn't in Manchester wrecking the city a few years back then it wasn't aimed at her personally.

As for a few 10's of thousand other Newco knuckle daggers.........my point still stands.

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Paolo

If the model followed was the welsh clubs, i dont think the likes of Cardiff etc compete in any welsh only competitions.

 

The old firm leaving seems the only solution to making Scottish football something other than a 1 or 2 horse race, at least in terms of the league. The "no to newco" campaign was so successful, it does seem like a possibility that non-OF Scottish clubs could unite again to break what they all want broken - the Glasgow monopoly that doesn't seem to benefit anyone in the long term.

 

i understand the "England" doesnt want them thing but if the entry was made at a lower enough tier, eg conference level, id be amazed if clubs crying out for an injection of cash didnt consider it.

 

There is about three or four leagues below the Conference.

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Independence

Just a bit of harmless humour. Lighten up, mate.

 

I have never known a hun to do 'HARMLESS HUMOUR'. The words harmless and Sevco fans just don't go together.

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Zico

Bryce is doing a fine job of derailing this thread. Far too smart for fat Traynor or Billy 'these aren't the droids I'm looking for' Dodds. Got to be on King's books....

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jambovambo

Bryce is doing a fine job of derailing this thread. Far too smart for fat Traynor or Billy 'these aren't the droids I'm looking for' Dodds. Got to be on King's books....

Bryce calls himself Lord Billy Austen on Twitter - don't you, Bryce?

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Ulysses
Bryce is doing a fine job of derailing this thread. Far too smart for fat Traynor or Billy 'these aren't the droids I'm looking for' Dodds. Got to be on King's books....

 

He has a different perspective. There's no harm in that, and a few members are doing a very solid job of disagreeing with him without the need to be personally abusive or question his right to have his different opinion.

 

If we want to express opinions and never have them challenged or contradicted, then an internet message board seems like a bad place to start. IMO, of course.

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bryce9a

There is about three or four leagues below the Conference.

There are 24 tiers to the pyramid in some parts of the country... something beautiful about that... http://en.wikipedia....l_league_system

 

God help us if "starting at the bottom" means that!

 

Never got the parallel senior/amateur/junior/welfare etc system when I came up here. Glad they've introduced a wee bit of pyramid-ness with the lowland league.

Edited by bryce9a

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Rick Grimes

Fair point, no arguments here. new to this forum lark as I only just got internet savvy, maybe its all perfectly normal to call folk scum. If so carry on

 

Nobody should be considered "scum" purely on the basis of their team. Attitudes like that are cringe worthy.

 

That said, it's still a valid argument to state that Rantic have grown and solidified their supports by pandering to the scummier elements of their support.

 

[modedit]

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Rick Grimes

 

 

God help us if "starting at the bottom" means that!

 

 

You want to move to a brand new league, why shouldn't it mean that?

 

As for your earlier comment that the clubs below EPL level would welcome you, you must get want to check previous comments from the Football League

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269miles

You don?t have a bullet point explanation and timeline of what happened?

 

I did read a blog/thread a while back but it was pretty long winded and you get quite lost. (And here is one coming up :))

 

I think the key basis was that clubs have certain dates to confirm that player, other club dues and tax payments are up to date in line with agreements or are in reasonable dispute, if not. And Rangers had been less than truthful in their end of the self certification process.

 

Maybe it was another case of once the governing body has accepted the lie, there is nothing that can be done?

 

Anyway, by the time Uefa have to be informed by the SFA if any club hasn?t met the criteria, most Scottish clubs are out of Europe. If anything Celtic fans should be asking their board to sue Rangers in liquidation. Mind you if it is true that the SPFL are considering chasing NewCo for the LNS enquiry fine, Lawwell is biding his time to go after them too.

 

Then again, now that he (Lawwell) is on the SFA Professional Board, maybe he is aspiring to future SFA, Uefa and Fifa positions and doesn?t want to rock the boat?

 

'Fraid not. I have though read all the stuff on TSFM recently (particularly re the CFC shaeholders motion).

 

The staggering thing that has emerged in all of this (IMO) is that Celtic were not happy with the SFA award of a UEFA licence that enabled RFC RIP to compete in the CL (at the cost of keepng CFC out), and were so unhappy they took it up directly with UEFA. I am genuinely amazed that in all the "nuclear" stuff that kicked around on RTC (as was) and now TSFM , this never leaked out.

 

The nub of the CFC shareholder motion is that Celtic lost out financially (although it doesn't seem to be the case they want any financial restitution). They are also strongly complaining about the lack of oversight of the SFA in ensuring TFC RIP paid their tax bills. I can't repeat the timeline with any accuracy but it is damning in highlighting , even then, how the Scottish footballing authorities seemed to be incredibly relaxed when it came to applying the rule book to RFC RIP.

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DETTY29

 

 

'Fraid not. I have though read all the stuff on TSFM recently (particularly re the CFC shaeholders motion).

 

The staggering thing that has emerged in all of this (IMO) is that Celtic were not happy with the SFA award of a UEFA licence that enabled RFC RIP to compete in the CL (at the cost of keepng CFC out), and were so unhappy they took it up directly with UEFA. I am genuinely amazed that in all the "nuclear" stuff that kicked around on RTC (as was) and now TSFM , this never leaked out.

 

The nub of the CFC shareholder motion is that Celtic lost out financially (although it doesn't seem to be the case they want any financial restitution). They are also strongly complaining about the lack of oversight of the SFA in ensuring TFC RIP paid their tax bills. I can't repeat the timeline with any accuracy but it is damning in highlighting , even then, how the Scottish footballing authorities seemed to be incredibly relaxed when it came to applying the rule book to RFC RIP.

From what I'd read it's sbout the end of September before thr SFA need to inform Uefa if a club put forward is not up to date with tax payments. .

 

Rangers were out of 2 tournaments by then.

 

It reeks more of football and it's loophole rules.

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bryce9a

From what I'd read it's sbout the end of September before thr SFA need to inform Uefa if a club put forward is not up to date with tax payments. .

 

Rangers were out of 2 tournaments by then.

 

It reeks more of football and it's loophole rules.

As I see it...

 

- old regime had accepted the "wee tax case" bill

- whyte came in and kicked it into the long grass saying he'd be "appealing" it

- the SFA deemed that this meant - in Regan term's - it hadn't "crystallised" so waved through the licence (whether it had or not is obviously the crux)

- celtic didn't like this so appealed to uefa about it

- uefa - according to celtic - said they saw no issue with what had happened and that was the end of the matter.

- celtic fc agree and want the little cabal trying to stir it all up to drop it

 

Of course it's easy to look back now and see it as whyte just pulling another fast one - which it probably was given who we're talking about. But whether any actual rules were broken at the time is likely to be a much more blurry affair.

 

So much of this saga has been typified by various parties calling foul on how the football authorities have behaved, yet ask them to point out the exact rules that have been broken, the conspiracy rhetoric suddenly appears lightweight. I think they deserve a hell of a lot more credit than they get, but i know that view will get few backers - from my own fellow bears let alone anyone else!

Edited by bryce9a

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Mysterion

 

Bryce - Rules being broken or not aside - the DeadRangers and Rangers2012 along with its officials have been treated with kid gloves.

 

Sally and Green have been incredibly dangerous with some of their comments. Stirring up hatred from the core DeadRangers support with "no surrender" to get them to support the new FC and then to Chocolate Sally and his "who are they" moment which lead to families receiving police protection.

 

 

When Vlad complained about his treatment he was spot on - fined for fun.

 

When Vlad said there was corruption - he was an expert talking. Rangers in both incarnations have been given preferential treatment.

 

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DETTY29

 

As I see it...

 

- old regime had accepted the "wee tax case" bills

- whyte came in and kicked it into the long grass saying he'd be "appealing" it

- the SFA deemed that this meant - in Regan term's - it hadn't "crystallised" so waved through the licence (whether it had or not is obviously the crux)

- celtic didn't like this so appealed to uefa about it

- uefa - according to celtic - said they saw no issue with what had happened and that was the end of the matter.

- celtic fc agree and want the little cabal trying to stir it all up to drop it

 

Of course it's easy to look back now and see it as whyte just pulling another fast one - which it probably was given who we're talking about. But whether any actual rules were broken at the time is likely to be a much more blurry affair.

 

So much of this saga has been typified by various parties calling foul on how the football authorities have behaved, yet ask them to point out the exact rules that have been broken, the conspiracy rhetoric suddenly appears lightweight. I think they deserve a hell of a lot more credit than they get, but i know that view will get few backers - from my own fellow bears let alone anyone else!

Part of this whole saga is how easily corruptable the spirit of the rules are. Mind you the rules start with FIFA so it shouldn't be a surprise.

 

He's a lad that Whyte though? Got the price down from ?6m to ?1 on the back of finding out via due diligence that the wee tax case had been admitted only to claim via the SFA he was disputing it.

Edited by DETTY29

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Guest oldcastlerock2012

 

1. How can anyone say it's been preferential treatment/double standards when no other club has been in a similar situation and been treated differently? (hint: you can't without deserting logic).

2. Looking at how other newcos have been dealt with in England, those that didnt get cvas but retained football memberships/paid football creditors etc (leeds/boro/luton/rotherham/bournemouth), Rangers have not kept their league placing like these other examples all did. In that sense Gers have been dealt with more harshly (but still fairly in my opinion - points penalties for insolvency are a joke).

 

1. The SFA changed their own rules in order to be able to fine, and essentially muzzle, Vlad... for speaking what turned out to be the truth. There is no record - none - of the SFA doing that to Rangers, despite numerous examples of them bringing the Scottish game into disrepute before, during and after their liquidation. If that's not preferential treatment I don't know what is.

 

2. No they haven't been dealt with more harshly than those clubs. First, it's a different league so different rules apply Second, how many of these teams were liquidated and ceased to exist which is what happened to Rangers (I can't be bothered checking and you seems to be up on these things)? Also are you sure all of these teams did not get a CVA agreed? Rotheram and Bournemouth for example? Rangers were dealt with more harshly because they were liquidated. If they had not been liquidated all that would have happened to Rangers was the 10 pt deducation.

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Troubadour

Surely gretna wouldn't have been afforded a vote, involving the SPL clubs , for them to stay or not stay in the top league ( had someone picked up their assets post- L?)

Edited by Troubadour

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bryce9a

No they haven't been dealt with more harshly than those clubs. First, it's a different league so different rules apply

Yes - of course different rules apply - evidently! In England their rules have been enforced in a manner that has seen their clubs in equivalent scenarios treated far less harshly than Rangers - that's exactly my point.

 

Second, how many of these teams were liquidated and ceased to exist which is what happened to Rangers (I can't be bothered checking and you seems to be up on these things)? Also are you sure all of these teams did not get a CVA agreed? Rotheram and Bournemouth for example?

Obviously i think the "ceased to exist" stuff is reality-defying nonsense, but returning to the facts, Leeds/Luton/Bouremouth and Rotherham all exited administration in newco form without a cva - just like Rangers Football Club...

 

image.jpg

 

Points penalties vs a drop of 3 tiers of football. The "got off lightly" thing doesn't quite ring true, does it.

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redm

His attitude impresses me. Seems to having a burning desire to succeed in a fergie kind of way and, achieving what he has done with County, has made something akin to a miracle from what I can tell.

 

The problem with McCoist is his mentality. He was always jack the lad and I honestly think he is more cut out to be a talksport presenter than anything else. I recall an interview he did when he said something like "as Rangers manager you can't afford to think more than one week ahead". From anyone else you might take that as a flippant remark but from Super I think that's his genuine outlook most of the time. Simply not fit for purpose. But Legend all the same.

 

 

1. How can anyone say it's been preferential treatment/double standards when no other club has been in a similar situation and been treated differently? (hint: you can't without deserting logic).

2. Looking at how other newcos have been dealt with in England, those that didnt get cvas but retained football memberships/paid football creditors etc (leeds/boro/luton/rotherham/bournemouth), Rangers have not kept their league placing like these other examples all did. In that sense Gers have been dealt with more harshly (but still fairly in my opinion - points penalties for insolvency are a joke).

 

This is the problem I have when it comes to debating stuff with rangers fans - they just can't help but dish out a heap of disingenuous and slippery arguments.

There were rules, there was set protocol for managing situations such as the one in which rangers found themselves. The governing bodies went out of their way to ignore/amend/ditch these rules and even admitted that they were doing it because it was a 'special' case, because "Scottish football needed a strong Rangers". If it wasn't for the backlash from SPL clubs and supporters and also from DIv 1 clubs, you can bet your boots they would have gotten away with a lot more of that than they did in the end. I get the feeling that a deep rooted sense of entitlement and a very mistaken belief that rangers are indeed 'special' is the main reason most of their fans manage not to cringe in great discomfort when this argument rears its head.

 

If you think any other club (except perhaps celtic) would've received the same treatment then you're off your rocker.

The idea that you can't evaluate whether or not something is fair because it's a unique situation is also batty.

 

But you already know that.

Edited by redm

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bryce9a

Surely gretna wouldn't have been afforded a vote, involving the SPL clubs , for them to stay or not stay in the top league ( had someone picked up their assets post- L?)

Who knows. In neither the Airdrieonians or Gretna situation did anyone come in to 'pick up the baton', so it's just baseless speculation.

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bryce9a

The governing bodies went out of their way to ignore/amend/ditch these rules...

Which rules?

The rule that said you can't transfer membership unless a club get's a cva? (hint: it never existed)

The rule that said a newco cannot receive the oldco's league share and remain in the league? (hint: it never existed)

The rule that said a club can't be officially regarded as having survived an oldco-newco transition without a cva? (hint: it never existed)

 

Show me these rules that were "ignored/amended/ditched". They don't exist now, they didn't exist then.

 

If you think any other club (except perhaps celtic) would've received the same treatment then you're off your rocker.

The idea that you can't evaluate whether or not something is fair because it's a unique situation is also batty.

But you already know that.

What I know is that to identify a double-standard, you need two equivalent situations to compare. You don't have this.

To identify preferential treatment, you need TWO equivalent situations in order to establish one was treated preferentially in comparison to the other!

 

The only equivalent scenarios are the one's I demonstrated as such in England, and unquestionably Rangers being demoted 3 tiers was a harsher outcome than point penalties between 15-20 points.

 

Again, as I've already stated, I'm not complaining - I think points penalties are far too lenient for newco-ing OR administration - financial collapse of both sorts deserves relegation one tier at the very least.

Edited by bryce9a

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Guest oldcastlerock2012

Yes - of course different rules apply - evidently! In England their rules have been enforced in a manner that has seen their clubs in equivalent scenarios treated far less harshly than Rangers - that's exactly my point.

 

 

Obviously i think the "ceased to exist" stuff is reality-defying nonsense, but returning to the facts, Leeds/Luton/Bouremouth and Rotherham all exited administration in newco form without a cva - just like Rangers Football Club...

 

image.jpg

 

Points penalties vs a drop of 3 tiers of football. The "got off lightly" thing doesn't quite ring true, does it.

 

So these clubs weren't liquidated like Rangers then? Thanks for confirming.

 

Gretna did also get liquidated though and ceased to exist, like Rangers, and were forced to start again outside the league because those were the rules. So quite obviously Rangers got preferential treatment.

 

It will be interesting to see how Hearts are treated if we get liquidated. I very much doubt there will be emergency behind closed doors meetings, campaigns in the media led by the SFA and SPL, talk of "armageddon", etc, etc..

Edited by oldcastlerock2012

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Dannie Boy

 

 

Yes - of course different rules apply - evidently! In England their rules have been enforced in a manner that has seen their clubs in equivalent scenarios treated far less harshly than Rangers - that's exactly my point.

 

 

Obviously i think the "ceased to exist" stuff is reality-defying nonsense, but returning to the facts, Leeds/Luton/Bouremouth and Rotherham all exited administration in newco form without a cva - just like Rangers Football Club...

 

image.jpg

 

 

Points penalties vs a drop of 3 tiers of football. The "got off lightly" thing doesn't quite ring true, does it.

 

Yes - of course different rules apply - evidently! In England their rules have been enforced in a manner that has seen their clubs in

equivalent scenarios treated far less harshly than Rangers - that's exactly my point.

 

 

 

Obviously i think the "ceased to exist" stuff is reality-defying nonsense, but returning to the facts, Leeds/Luton/Bouremouth and Rotherham all exited administration in newco form without a cva - just like Rangers Football Club...

 

image.jpg

 

Points penalties vs a drop of 3 tiers of football. The "got off lightly" thing doesn't quite ring true, does it.

 

bryce6a there was no drop of 3 tiers for The Rangers, there was however a team admitted to that bottom division. Also Rangers are in Liquidation not Administration.

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Ulysses

This thread has been split off from the main "Rangers soap opera" thread to allow a debate about the existential state of Rangers - whether they are alive or dead, new or old, treated fairly or unfairly, should be in Scotland or England, and so on.

 

We have some Rangers supporters with a different view to ours, and this is the thread for debating these different viewpoints - not the main thread. That thread has been running for 18 months to provide an opportunity for Hearts supporters to exchange information and opinions about the various Rangers sagas, and it will continue for that purpose. Any effort to derail that, especially by non-HMFC supporters, will be frowned upon by JKB moderators.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Good work Mods. Leave Bryce to witter to his heart's content.

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bryce9a

Good work Mods. Leave Bryce to witter to his heart's content.

My paymasters won't be happy. 3 missed calls from Jack already.

 

Back to serious matters, is this a "new" thread, or the same thread but with a different forum identity?......

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

My paymasters won't be happy. 3 missed calls from Jack already.

 

Back to serious matters, is this a "new" thread, or the same thread but with a different forum identity?......

Moth to a flame eh? As to your flippant question, I have more faith in the Mods than the SFA in answering it.

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shaun.lawson

This is the problem I have when it comes to debating stuff with rangers fans - they just can't help but dish out a heap of disingenuous and slippery arguments.

 

 

Except that his arguments were neither disingenuous nor slippery. They were accurate.

 

'Only in Scotland'? As he showed, when similar fates befell various English clubs, they were all allowed to keep their places in the same division: indefensibly so in Leeds' case. Leeds are, to all intents and purposes, a newco - but no-one refers to them as that or considers them as that. To pretty much every football fan throughout England, they're just the same old Dirty Leeds - just as Rangers are the same old Orcs too.

 

If it looks like a turkey, and waddles like a turkey, the chances are, it might just be a turkey. Rangers still play in blue and white; still play at Ibrox; are still managed by Ally McCoist; are still followed by about 45000 overweight, drunk Glaswegians; still think of themselves as the Queen's XI; and sadly for the rest of Scottish football, are still winning lots and lots and lots of football matches. What's changed? Their status, but only temporarily. The reality is they're the same old Rangers.

 

In Italy, where Fiorentina and Napoli were both liquidated and reformed, only for the authorities to bend over backwards to help them in a way they didn't in Scotland, you reckon anyone anywhere regards them as newcos? Treats them as though all their history just ceased to exist? Of course they don't. They're grand old European clubs - as are Rangers and, for that matter, Leeds.

 

And here's the thing. The only reason why Hearts didn't suffer Rangers' exact fate is that, fortunately for us, HMRC weren't in a position to veto a CVA. So that's it? We get to declare what is or isn't a contiguous football club purely because of who its largest creditor happened to be? Pfft. In that case, why is 1874 on Hearts' badge when we folded in 1876? And in Rangers' case, despite our fury at the "cheating" that had gone on, they only went and won their tax case anyway! Meaning that their liquidation need not even have happened at all.

 

I hate that club as much as anyone else - but suck it up, people. They're still here. Waltzing through League 1, just like they'll waltz through the Championship, and before long, waltz back to the Scottish title too. It's inevitable. And while we keep calling them names and keep whining that the Scottish authorities didn't do even more than they already did (make them start again in the bottom division? What more do people want, for Christ's sake?), they'll keep hoovering up trophies and titles. Loathe them or loathe them, it's what they do.

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Charlie-Brown

SFA membership is non transferable except in certain circumstances under the SFA boards discretion, SPL shares are non transferable except in the procedure for promotion / demotion. UEFA and national club licenses are non transferable as they refer to the specific football club (including the "holding company") so Sevco couldn't be given any of these things as they simply weren't transferable except for the SFA membership that the SFA board agreed to transfer as part of the 5 way agreement.

 

In deluded Rangers fans parlance none of these things could be bought as part of the sale of assets or business between holding companies as they were and remain Non Transferable.

Edited by Charlie-Brown

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