"Plans to close pubs on football matchdays are excessive"

[The People's Chimp]

Aye, far better just letting the 16 year olds get jobs, get married, join the army and dodge bullets in Afghanistan etc etc rather than give them the vote. Can't help but think there were people just like you moaning about giving women the vote 100 years ago. Many of our 16 and 17 year olds have a better grasp of politics than their parents and grandparents who simply voted for Labour, because their father and grandfather voted Labour for example.

 

It's not massively relevant to the thread, but you need to be 18 to see active service in the army.

[frankblack]

Its not about punishing, its about trying to deal with one of the most damaging (and expensive) aspects of our culture.

 

Bollocks.

 

Its hypocritical from the SNP ministers and like the minimum pricing on alcohol is punishing the majority rather than deal with the roots of the problem.

[dc-jambo]

as I think has been noted, the OP has the wrong end of the stick

 

this isn't happening, and the idea isn't the SNPs

[Guest Dipped Flake]

There is absolutely no doubt that the SNP want to punish even sensible drinkers by increasing costs through minimum pricing.

And I thought New Labour were the champions of the nanny state.

minimum pricing is being pushed by the SNP, Labour, the Tories and the Liberals but don't let that get in your way of a totally ill-informed rant about the SNP.

I'm not sure I agree with minimum pricing by the way but this is totally seperate from what is being discussed here

[Guest Dipped Flake]

as I think has been noted, the OP has the wrong end of the stick

 

this isn't happening, and the idea isn't the SNPs

but as I said earlier, some people base their political views on a headline they see in a paper - it really is scary

 

by the way Mods, any chance changing the OP headline to something even remotely connected with the truth??

[Stanley_]

as I think has been noted, the OP has the wrong end of the stick

 

this isn't happening, and the idea isn't the SNPs

 

People read what they want to believe and make it suit their agenda.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

but as I said earlier, some people base their political views on a headline they see in a paper - it really is scary

 

by the way Mods, any chance changing the OP headline to something even remotely connected with the truth??

 

It should at least match the content to be honest.

[Barney Rubble]

The SFA and oldhun conspired to **** football a long long time ago !

[Seymour M Hersh]

Its not about punishing, its about trying to deal with one of the most damaging (and expensive) aspects of our culture.

 

So the majority get "punished" to curtail the excesses of the minority? The SNP seem to have a puritanical/wee free attitude toward drink. They seem to think that making it harder to get (later sales times in supermarkets) or more expensive (minimum pricing) will somehow stop hardened bevviers getting booze. All they do is make it harder for the majority in a pathetic attempt prevent the minority drinking too much. Just confirms to me how out of touch wee eck and his half-wits are with reality.

[john brownlee]

 

It really is quite frightening how many people read yet another anti-SNP headline by the media and go off on a rant about how Independence will have the sky falling on our heads, when the truth is nowhere near the headline attention-grabber.

I really worry that we give the vote to people who base their opinions on BIG WRITING in a paper

 

never buy a paper, base my thoughts on BBC parliment channel and if you listen or watch scottish questions and related days you would see right away these so called reps are well out of their league, can't even win an arguement with that auld bat from edin east but havein' said that she probably scares the wee boys she is after all only about a goal line from them

[FarmerTweedy]

This SNP government really doesn't have a ******* clue

 

FTFY!

[Drewjambobusby]

Aye, far better just letting the 16 year olds get jobs, get married, join the army and dodge bullets in Afghanistan etc etc rather than give them the vote. Can't help but think there were people just like you moaning about giving women the vote 100 years ago. Many of our 16 and 17 year olds have a better grasp of politics than their parents and grandparents who simply voted for Labour, because their father and grandfather voted Labour for example.

 

Get a Grip. You don`t think it`s because Salmond is banking on the Nationalistic fervour which is present in all 16 year olds ?? Not saying that is a bad thing, unless it is anti-English, which unfortunately, it sometimes is. You must know a lot of very switched on 16 year olds. I certainly haven`t, bless them. Don`t disagree with political parties being treated like football teams though. Hopefully your right, and the 16 year olds have enough sense, to know that independence will not work. Just look at Southern Ireland for a blue print.

[Stanley_]

Get a Grip. You don`t think it`s because Salmond is banking on the Nationalistic fervour which is present in all 16 year olds ?? Not saying that is a bad thing, unless it is anti-English, which unfortunately, it sometimes is. You must know a lot of very switched on 16 year olds. I certainly haven`t, bless them. Don`t disagree with political parties being treated like football teams though. Hopefully your right, and the 16 year olds have enough sense, to know that independence will not work. Just look at Southern Ireland for a blue print.

 

There is no doubt that some 16 and 17 year old are more knowledgeable about politics than people many years older than them. Like all age groups, some will know a lot, other won't care and won't turn bother to vote.

 

Comment like "have enough sense, to know that independence will not work" aren't really worth replying to. Unless you are 16 or 17 then it kind of proves my point that you can't debate politics with some people; regardless of their age.

[Drewjambobusby]

There is no doubt that some 16 and 17 year old are more knowledgeable about politics than people many years older than them. Like all age groups, some will know a lot, other won't care and won't turn bother to vote.

 

Comment like "have enough sense, to know that independence will not work" aren't really worth replying to. Unless you are 16 or 17 then it kind of proves my point that you can't debate politics with some people; regardless of their age.

 

So in your opinion, 16 or 17 year olds haven`t been brought into voting spectre to boost Salmonds chances of succes ?s and, are going to be well enough informed on the subject to vote, as opposed to voting yes, because it`s a COOL idea ? That is just naive.

[Dboy]

http://www.scotland....41/00411123.pdf

 

Here is the consultation document - page 9 onwards covers the football ground aspects

[Stanley_]

So in your opinion, 16 or 17 year olds haven`t been brought into voting spectre to boost Salmonds chances of succes ?s and, are going to be well enough informed on the subject to vote, as opposed to voting yes, because it`s a COOL idea ? That is just naive.

 

16 and 17 year olds have been brought in because the SNP think it will benefit the 'yes' campaign. I agree with that.

 

I do, however, stand by my point that some 16 and 17 year olds are better informed politically than people older than them. Reducing it to people voting 'yes' because it is a "cool" idea is pretty insulting to people voting 'yes' (though I've noticed that a lot of people who support 'no' tend to go down the route of "you're only voting yes for these stupid reasons").

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

 

So in your opinion, 16 or 17 year olds haven`t been brought into voting spectre to boost Salmonds chances of succes ?s and, are going to be well enough informed on the subject to vote, as opposed to voting yes, because it`s a COOL idea ? That is just naive.

 

Sorry mate, I don't agree with that at all. Stanley's spot in. Most 16-17 year olds will probably just ape the voting pattern of their parents and the ones that vote based on their own opinions will most likely do so based upon their relevant experience of the way they are treated by the public sector, police and wider society and what they have been taught at school.

[henry]

 

Mackaskill wanted late derby kick offs banned doesn't he. He should just get on with the job we pay him to do, he can't even get that close to being right. Letting mass murderers go free is just one of his mega balls ups............ It's frightening to think anyone would even consider independence

[Drewjambobusby]

16 and 17 year olds have been brought in because the SNP think it will benefit the 'yes' campaign. I agree with that.

 

I do, however, stand by my point that some 16 and 17 year olds are better informed politically than people older than them. Reducing it to people voting 'yes' because it is a "cool" idea is pretty insulting to people voting 'yes' (though I've noticed that a lot of people who support 'no' tend to go down the route of "you're only voting yes for these stupid reasons").

 

Fair enough mate. I think it is absolutely stupid personally, and can`t understand why people would entertain it. They get more at the moment than rest of the UK. Subscriptions, University education etc About ?1,600 per year per head spent , more than Uk counterparts. That is subsidised by Westminster.

 

Just to satisfy Salmonds own agenda, would any scot want to rock the boat ?

 

Only my opinion, and i passionately hope for sake of my kids they don`t go for it.

[Guest Dipped Flake]

So the majority get "punished" to curtail the excesses of the minority? The SNP seem to have a puritanical/wee free attitude toward drink. They seem to think that making it harder to get (later sales times in supermarkets) or more expensive (minimum pricing) will somehow stop hardened bevviers getting booze. All they do is make it harder for the majority in a pathetic attempt prevent the minority drinking too much. Just confirms to me how out of touch wee eck and his half-wits are with reality.

 

so what is your opinion of Labour, Liberals and the Tories wanting minimum procing then???

[Guest Dipped Flake]

Fair enough mate. I think it is absolutely stupid personally, and can`t understand why people would entertain it. They get more at the moment than rest of the UK. Subscriptions, University education etc About ?1,600 per year per head spent , more than Uk counterparts. That is subsidised by Westminster.

 

Just to satisfy Salmonds own agenda, would any scot want to rock the boat ?

 

Only my opinion, and i passionately hope for sake of my kids they don`t go for it.

 

Scotland gives more to the UK in taxes than we get back. Please, please, try and educate yourself just a tiny bit about the facts. If, after checking the facts, you still don't want independence then that's fine but you can't just base your opinion on soundbites from the unionists. Anyway, I'm out of here as this thread should be moved to the shed as it is now nothing to do with football

[The Treasurer]

Disagree. We've got enough bams in our support as it is, never mind keeping them tanked up during the game.

 

No alcohol in the ground really isn't a problem imo, its an hour and a half without a pint. Just go to the pub after the game if you really want a drink.

 

So you think a good, regular source of income should be denied our clubs because a few daft wee laddies can't behave after a couple of shandies ?

Clubs in England (not to mention egg-chasers) are able to supply alcohol in their grounds without mass rioting taking place.

Stewarding within stadium bars would be tighter than any pubs near the ground ensuring said "bams" would be removed before they even got to their seat in the stand.

[Drewjambobusby]

Scotland gives more to the UK in taxes than we get back. Please, please, try and educate yourself just a tiny bit about the facts. If, after checking the facts, you still don't want independence then that's fine but you can't just base your opinion on soundbites from the unionists. Anyway, I'm out of here as this thread should be moved to the shed as it is now nothing to do with football

 

Agree with Shed. The rest of your answer comes straight from SNP web site i am afraid. Although it does depend on who is doing sums.

 

From idependent source:

 

Last year we had a ?2.6 billion advantage over the UK. An advantage worth ?510 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.

 

And over the last five years that advantage totals ?8.6 billion

 

That?s over ?1600 for every man woman and child in Scotland.

 

Scotland has a surplus of 3.5 million i think on budget. The rest of UK has 72.6 Billion deficit. You do the sums.

 

Anyway, it`s down to personal opinion and i respect yours, but please don`t patronise.

 

VOTE NO FOR GODS SAKE

[Carl Spackler]

I read that article yesterday and dismissed it. Non-story.

[Guest Dipped Flake]

Agree with Shed. The rest of your answer comes straight from SNP web site i am afraid. Although it does depend on who is doing sums.

 

From idependent source:

 

Last year we had a ?2.6 billion advantage over the UK. An advantage worth ?510 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.

 

And over the last five years that advantage totals ?8.6 billion

 

That?s over ?1600 for every man woman and child in Scotland.

 

Scotland has a surplus of 3.5 million i think on budget. The rest of UK has 72.6 Billion deficit. You do the sums.

 

Anyway, it`s down to personal opinion and i respect yours, but please don`t patronise.

 

VOTE NO FOR GODS SAKE

 

sorry but your last post makes no sense. You early stated that Scotland was subsidised by the UK and then you post to say Scotland in fact subsidises the rest of the UK? Anyway, your figures are wrong as Scotland is currently in deficit, just not as much in deficit(per capita) as the rest of the UK.

Actually after re-reading your post I guess you are saying that we get given the surplus from the UK that you are on about??

As you say, if you go by the unionist parties figures they will show we are a bunch of spoungers; if you go by the SNP figures, we prop up the UK. Hopefully there will be a way for truly independant figures to be produced that everyone can rely on - one thing you must agree is that so far, the vast majority of newspaper articles are very much anti-Independence

[Alfred]

Just to add to the debate

 

Freebies: After independence Scots would lose our 'freebies' like free prescriptions, free education, and bus passes for the elderly.

 

No, we wouldn't. Our "freebies" are safe, we're already paying for them. They are paid for out of the pocket money that Westminster deigns to return to Scotland, which in turn comes out of the revenues Scotland sends to Westminster. We get back less than we give. That's happening now, under the Union, but because Holyrood has adopted a different set of spending priorities from Westminster, we get our "freebies". Much the same happens in Wales, where prescriptions are also free. England could have these "freebies" too, but Westminster chooses to spend the cash on other things - like introducing privatisation into the NHS in England.

 

Currently we're subject to Westminster's whims, and should the Tories and their Lib Dem hangers on decide to cut public spending even further, then Scottish public services are at risk too. Scotland will have no say in the matter. Do you trust Davie Cameron with your granny's bus pass?

 

After independence, all Scottish revenues would accrue to the Scottish Parliament, which would give them a bigger pot than they currently have. We'll also have a Parliament that is free to make the spending decisions that the Scottish electorate votes for. Only independence can guarantee our freebies.

 

From http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation#freebies

[Drewjambobusby]

Okay boys. My Auld Man always says dont argue about Religion, Politics or Football as everyone has their own opinion on it.

 

I think it`s insanity but you do what you think is right. Just can`t get my head round, why the Yes people, think they will be seriously better off than now ? For me the good ship independence sailed some time ago. We had the chance then, and didn`t want it, so why, in midst of a recession, would we think it`s good idea now ? Didnt exactly work for the Irish did it or mor,e has it ?

 

Each to their own and good luck.

[Stanley_]

Okay boys. My Auld Man always says dont argue about Religion, Politics or Football as everyone has their own opinion on it.

 

I think it`s insanity but you do what you think is right. Just can`t get my head round, why the Yes people, think they will be seriously better off than now ? For me the good ship independence sailed some time ago. We had the chance then, and didn`t want it, so why, in midst of a recession, would we think it`s good idea now ? Didnt exactly work for the Irish did it or mor,e has it ?

 

Each to their own and good luck.

 

When did we have the chance?

[Super Marius]

SNP GTF

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

SNP GTF

 

Well... To be fair, I was undecided up until now... But... That post there?... How can you argue with such a strong position???

 

[Stanley_]

SNP GTF

 

The Better Together slogan ?

[Unknown user]

Okay boys. My Auld Man always says dont argue about Religion, Politics or Football as everyone has their own opinion on it.

 

I think it`s insanity but you do what you think is right. Just can`t get my head round, why the Yes people, think they will be seriously better off than now ? For me the good ship independence sailed some time ago. We had the chance then, and didn`t want it, so why, in midst of a recession, would we think it`s good idea now ? Didnt exactly work for the Irish did it or mor,e has it ?

 

Each to their own and good luck.

An independent Scotland means people stand a chance of getting a government they actually voted for.

 

But as you say, each to their own - as long as your opinion is based on fact I'm happy to hear it.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

 

The Better Together slogan ?

 

The Better Together Slogan:

 

SNP GTF, IMHO, FTS, GIRUY.

[Chewie]

Top trolling by the OP, surely knew this would descend into independence handbags.

 

 

[Drewjambobusby]

When did we have the chance?

 

I was referring to the Devolution vote. Can`t remember when it was 1977 or 1978 i think. Majority was tiny, and if i remember 40% of electorate had to vote, but didn`t. As i say can`t remember exact details. Not as big a deal as this time and i was probably misleading, but still had the chance to say then.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

 

I was referring to the Devolution vote. Can`t remember when it was 1977 or 1978 i think. Majority was tiny, and if i remember 40% of electorate had to vote, but didn`t. As i say can`t remember exact details. Not as big a deal as this time and i was probably misleading, but still had the chance to say then.

 

JESUS MATE... Really? You're not just taking the piss with that? No?

 

[Stanley_]

I was referring to the Devolution vote. Can`t remember when it was 1977 or 1978 i think. Majority was tiny, and if i remember 40% of electorate had to vote, but didn`t. As i say can`t remember exact details. Not as big a deal as this time and i was probably misleading, but still had the chance to say then.

 

Surely you can't use that referendum (especially since the yes vote was more than half) as an example of missing the chance considering there was another referendum less than 20 years later which overwhelmingly passed with a yes vote.

[Super Marius]

It's good that nothing in this country is going to get done for the next year and a half as we all squabble over this meaningless debate. Salmond knows the game is up and hopes that a major rush of patriotism in 2014 (Ryder Cup, Commonwealth games and for any Braveheart throbbers out there, Bannockburn anniversary) will give his side a massive boost in the run up to casting the vote. Everything else between now and then is going to descend into bitter farse and business and growth will stall due to the uncertainty over where the country is heading.

 

Well done Salmond.

[Drewjambobusby]

Surely you can't use that referendum (especially since the yes vote was more than half) as an example of missing the chance considering there was another referendum less than 20 years later which overwhelmingly passed with a yes vote.

 

Agreed. But my point, badly made i will grant you, is that the 70`s one , when Oil was at it`s peak, was surely the more relevant ? At that time if we were to do it i think we would have had a much better chance of surviving.

 

Like i say and you do too, each to their own.

[Drewjambobusby]

JESUS MATE... Really? You're not just taking the piss with that? No?

 

 

Not very well articulated as an example but see below. I still think it`s relevant or at least was.

[Alfred]

to be fair I'm undecided.....

 

That link I posted earlier is actually quite interesting to me and I can see the argument.....

 

I'd love to see similar on the status quo so that I can start to think about what I'd really want to vote for.....

 

at the moment those anti-independance are not helping themselves (in the main)

[Drewjambobusby]

Whether my arguments against are poo,r or not, in your guys opinion, or indeed flawed or not factual. I would basically end by saying tha,t i cannot see how, in the middle, yes middle of a Recession, why we would think it a good idea to abandon the safety blanket of the Uk as a whole, and hope that we would be better off ? I cannot see how in the hell we would be ?

What i see idependence as, is a one man agenda i.e Salmond and his own thirst for more power. Don`t think there is a Scot alive, that wouldn`t love to see Scotland totally independent. I cannot see how , especially in the current climate, it could possibly work and i fear for the country, if it should go down this route.

Like i said Earlier, look at Ireland ? How they are wishing things could be different now !!!

[Don Draper]

Top trolling by the OP, surely knew this would descend into independence handbags.

 

 

 

Indeed. His previous "I'm an undecided, to be honest" nonsense revealed to be a bit of porky pie in one trolling post.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

"Braveheart throbbers"

 

[Don Draper]

What i see idependence as, is a one man agenda i.e Salmond and his own thirst for more power. Don`t think there is a Scot alive, that wouldn`t love to see Scotland totally independent.

 

Those two statements don't contradict each other. At all.

[henry]

 

 

The Better Together Slogan:

 

SNP GTF, IMHO, FTS, GIRUY.

 

Alistair darling worked for months for these slogans

[Drewjambobusby]

Those two statements don't contradict each other. At all.

 

Fair enough. You know what. JKB has taught me i am better speaking, than putting my thoughts down on a forum. Never get it feckin right. Hope you can see what i was trying to see, it`s just i am totally pish at it :11200:

 

Edit- Basically i don`t see Independence being pushed for anything other than Salmonds agenda, but would love to see Independent Scotland, just far from convinced it will be possible financially.

[Robbo 75]

Aye, far better just letting the 16 year olds get jobs, get married, join the army and dodge bullets in Afghanistan etc etc rather than give them the vote. Can't help but think there were people just like you moaning about giving women the vote 100 years ago. Many of our 16 and 17 year olds have a better grasp of politics than their parents and grandparents who simply voted for Labour, because their father and grandfather voted Labour for example.

Aye, far better just letting the 16 year olds get jobs, get married, join the army and dodge bullets in Afghanistan etc etc rather than give them the vote. Can't help but think there were people just like you moaning about giving women the vote 100 years ago. Many of our 16 and 17 year olds have a better grasp of politics than their parents and grandparents who simply voted for Labour, because their father and grandfather voted Labour for example.

 

16 - 17 year olds cannot join the forces without Parental consent and no longer are deployed until they have reached 18 years of age.

[Jammy T]

So glad I don't live in Scotland under the SNP.

 

Their approach to alcohol is complete nanny state stuff.

[Jammy T]

 

An independent Scotland means people stand a chance of getting a government they actually voted for.

 

But as you say, each to their own - as long as your opinion is based on fact I'm happy to hear it.

 

The poor quality of mps Scotland currently has would suggest that this would end in parochial disaster.

 

Scotland would become a badly run caricature of itself.