Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[JamboX2]

 

 

All this was known when the Council voted to continue the half line to St Andrew Square rather than scrapping it.

 

They decided to spend the money on half a tram line rather than on education.

 

I remembering reading scrapping it was a higher cost than completing it.

[Coco]

I remembering reading scrapping it was a higher cost than completing it.

 

That was lies. It is impossible that on a whole life basis that it could have cost more (including the finance cost/operating loss/replacement costs and all the rest).

 

If it would have cost more then it would have been possible to go after the people in charge/lawyers for agreeing to spend more than their budget.

[Socrates]

Arguably yes. However, it seems infrastructure investment is more popular these days as a means of job creation.

 

It is also the case that the freeze usnt really benefiting the hardest pressed in society as by proportion of money in their pocket they pay more out on it as a rate and wealthier people are paying less as their houses (which are ripe for rerating) are doing better out of it. Also, due to inflation the services the poorer members of society rely on are being cut as central funding to plug the whole is cut.

 

Also this was started in a time of plenty.

 

I will be good and not start a thread diversion. It seems straightforward to me - the council is cutting school funding to pay for the trams. That's bad, and if we didn't have the trams, it wouldn't be necessary regardless of the council tax freeze.

[JamboX2]

 

 

I will be good and not start a thread diversion. It seems straightforward to me - the council is cutting school funding to pay for the trams. That's bad, and if we didn't have the trams, it wouldn't be necessary regardless of the council tax freeze.

 

However it is important to remember whilst inflation is robbing us of maintaining good services council tax income is no more than what it was in 2007. Its unsustainable and robbing social services and education budgets. Trams or not.

[Cade]

 

The council tried to terminate the trams at Haymarket because they had just about run out of money.

The Scottish Govt then refused to hand over the final tranche of funding because they were not going to pay for a line that only went from the Airport to Haymarket.

The council then had to push it out to St Andrews square in order to get the last instalment of money from the Govt.

This is when the council had to take out a huge ?300mil loan to cover the shortfall(that is being paid back at ?16.5mil a year for 30 years for a total repayment of ?495mil).

 

This ?16.5mil a year debt repayment is precisely why education and other services are being cut back. To pay for the fecking trams.

[The Gasman]

Anyone know how many trams we've bought?

 

How many trams can half a line have on at the one time before it reaches capacity?

 

Surely we've not bought more than eight (4 on duty each way at any given time)?

 

Maybe one or two spares in case of breakdowns as well?

 

I was told that some of the trams are actually already out with their warranty period, and we can "look forward" to poor reliability and more break downs than would be expected on buses.

[Socrates]

However it is important to remember whilst inflation is robbing us of maintaining good services council tax income is no more than what it was in 2007. Its unsustainable and robbing social services and education budgets. Trams or not.

 

It's not quite as simple as that. In real terms, average incomes are still a fair bit below 2007 levels, so further tax increases are unlikely to be welcomed, especially as most council tax payers are not the hugely rich, and, under the council tax system, it isn't possible to get that much out of those who can afford to pay a lot more. Also, council tax revenue makes up a relatively small portion of all local government revenue, so, by freezing it, it doesn't necessarily have that much of an impact, especially given that we can't assume that the Government would have given the same amount of money to local councils if there wasn't a freeze, Anyway, if you really want to talk about this more, feel free to start a separate thread. This one is supposed to be about trams.

[The Gasman]

Maybe they should have moved the ocean terminal up to York place and claimed the whole route complete.

 

 

I'm surprised they never thought of that.

[Ribble]

Maybe they should have moved the ocean terminal up to York place and claimed the whole route complete.

 

Wouldn't put it past ECC to rename Ocean Terminal as the Western Harbour Shopping Centre and the rebuilt St James Centre as the new Ocean Terminal!

[Big D]

The trams should have started at Glasgow Central and thus solved the GARL issue too in one swell foop. Still cant understand why a link to the airport from the lines from the west and north-west would not have been cheaper. Having said that, the sewers and other services still needed sorted. Perhaps trams and the additional services upgrade were the best use of the original budget, but the unionist insistence on the revised budget and revised route (less for more, shameful) was simply politics with constituents paypackets. St. Etienne which has a great tram system has recently had to rip some of it up to fix the sub-street services. We may have got some of it right but at the wrong price.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Big D

[Jambos1983]

Please tell me its not actually true that its going to take longer than the airport bus!! Surely a wind up?

[Matthew Le Tissier]

 

 

Can it get any worse!

 

Still at least it will be quicker and cheaper to get to the airport now, oh wait....

 

I wonder what the real cost is when you add in lost tax / rates from the small businesses which have gone bust / lost income from shopping etc.

 

Not Edina's finest moment.

No circle at York Place. Just a single length of track with a point where the two tracks seperate.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Same credit rating agencies that confirmed lots of countries AAA rating before they went bust? Or the same credit rating agencies who essentially take bribes to say that so and so (a business or a country) are "good"?

 

Credit rating agencies seem less than "truthful" IMO.

 

Which isn't to say that the trams haven't cost ?1.6bn, however I guess it's how much one trusts a source.

 

While I would not argue with much of what you say I trust the source.

[Koolkeith]

Why would anyone in their right mind get a tram to the airport, in which they'll have to take their luggage off the tram and onto a bus, when they can just get on the airport bus straight to the airport? It would surprise me if they've properly factored in the time for all the people f@nnying about getting off the tram to then get on the shuttle bus.

[Big D]

Please tell me its not actually true that its going to take longer than the airport bus!! Surely a wind up?

Nope, the trams will slow the airport bus down.

[Coco]

When are we going to get the promised public inquiry into this disaster?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14691885

[JamboX2]

When are we going to get the promised public inquiry into this disaster?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14691885

 

SNP dont want it anymore as they were culpable for errors during the "we wont help" stage. And that most of the blundering happened under the SNP-Liberal council.

 

In short it probably wont.

[Coco]

SNP dont want it anymore as they were culpable for errors during the "we wont help" stage. And that most of the blundering happened under the SNP-Liberal council.

 

In short it probably wont.

 

Most of it will be small-scale corporate misdeeds by those running TIE. Useless incompetence from the Councillors of all the parties. Lies from Consultants. Lies from Council Executives.

 

But the thing I'm most interested in is why the Government Agency - Transport Scotland - dished out ?440m of the public's cash for the half line even though all the project milestones which payments were dependent on were clearly missed.

[Big D]

SNP dont want it anymore as they were culpable for errors during the "we wont help" stage. And that most of the blundering happened under the SNP-Liberal council.

 

In short it probably wont.

Oh dear. You actually believe your own propaganda. Go back and look at the voting in Capital Council and Holyrood. You are a liar to deny the combined unionist parties vote Jx2 and this week there have been many of you. The unionists forced the trams, the SNP continually voted against continuation of the present plan. To pretend otherwise is lies. Stop it. And apologise.

[pablo]

 

 

All this was known when the Council voted to continue the half line to St Andrew Square rather than scrapping it.

 

They decided to spend the money on half a tram line rather than on education.

 

I broadly agree with the trams, but, see the education cuts,. If you decide to freeze the council tax, doesn't it stand to reason you can't then afford everything you've always had?

[JamboX2]

 

Oh dear. You actually believe your own propaganda. Go back and look at the voting in Capital Council and Holyrood. You are a liar to deny the combined unionist parties vote Jx2 and this week there have been many of you. The unionists forced the trams, the SNP continually voted against continuation of the present plan. To pretend otherwise is lies. Stop it. And apologise.

 

Not denying Lab-Lib want for this project. Nor their culpability. But the SNP ran a lot of tge Council and government during this fiasco. Which it has been. Skeletons in everyones cupboards. Ask yourself why the SNP commitment to the enquiry has not been fulfilled. Everyone mucked this up.

 

Also they were the elected government. Much like the SNP are now. It was a democratic mandate to do what they said they would. Including trams.

Edited September 19, 2013 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

 

 

I broadly agree with the trams, but, see the education cuts,. If you decide to freeze the council tax, doesn't it stand to reason you can't then afford everything you've always had?

 

[Alba gu Brath]

 

Strange reply since you asked for evidence of Stirling Council (Tory-Labour pact) imposed cuts due to their council tax cut!

 

Please explain the logic - a freeze causes cuts in services but a cut - to satisy the Tories - doesn't.

 

You canny have it both ways.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Alba gu Brath

[JamboX2]

 

 

Strange reply since you asked for evidence of Stirling Council (Tory-Labour pact) imposed cuts due to their council tax cut!

 

Please explain the logic - a freeze causes cuts in services but a cut - to satisy the Tories - doesn't.

 

You canny have it both ways.

 

You can actually. As I said to you the reason given was it was deemed affordable to do so without harming services. On top of that its a show of independent local governmennt doing what it feels is best. I'd remove the imposed freeze to allow councils tax varying freedom. Edinburgh us short revenue so that freedom without threat to central grants would allow a policy suited for Edinburgh.

 

I'd also like to see a local government bond market like Denmark, Norway and the US have to see really strong and independent local government.

[Mikey1874]

 

Maybe they should have moved the ocean terminal up to York place and claimed the whole route complete.

 

Not followed the last 6 years closely. But I recall a big reason for the tram project was to move the people from all the new housing in Granton (and Leith?). Another, related was to get the people who won't use buses.

 

So with the money running out and no trams to Granton what is the alternative plan? Maybe not so many flats built due to recession but what is the great transport master-plan?

[Mikey1874]

 

This is when the council had to take out a huge ?300mil loan to cover the shortfall(that is being paid back at ?16.5mil a year for 30 years for a total repayment of ?495mil).

 

This ?16.5mil a year debt repayment is precisely why education and other services are being cut back. To pay for the fecking trams.

 

And they said recently they expect trams to make an operating profit. We'll see.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I'm looking forward to getting on one. I'll handsom **** out of it. Up the trams!

[...a bit disco]

I'm looking forward to getting on one. I'll handsom **** out of it. Up the trams!

 

Mothy riding a public disgrace?

 

What will the missus say?

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

 

Mothy riding a public disgrace?

 

What will the missus say?

 

I used to like you Disco Biscuits...

 

[Dunks]

Why would anyone in their right mind get a tram to the airport, in which they'll have to take their luggage off the tram and onto a bus, when they can just get on the airport bus straight to the airport? It would surprise me if they've properly factored in the time for all the people f@nnying about getting off the tram to then get on the shuttle bus.

 

 

You get off the tram and walk into the terminal, WTF would you get on a bus?

[Dunks]

I broadly agree with the trams, but, see the education cuts,. If you decide to freeze the council tax, doesn't it stand to reason you can't then afford everything you've always had?

 

Council Tax is frozen, but SG increased funding to all 32 councils to address the shortfall. As agreed by all 32 councils.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Council Tax is frozen, but SG increased funding to all 32 councils to address the shortfall. As agreed by all 32 councils.

 

Yet post-Concordat the SG has cut ?650m in the coming budget from the funding.

[dobmisterdobster]

 

 

You get off the tram and walk into the terminal, WTF would you get on a bus?

 

They're still perpetuating this old myth that the tram doesn't go all the way to the airport.

Probably because they haven't got any better material.

[GlasgoJambo]

Don't want to get into a full blow debate here...

 

[GlasgoJambo]

 

Putting on my tin-foil hat... Also a bit tired of all the 'let's laugh at Edinburgh' from the weegia. How much over-budget was the M74 extension in the end? How much is a two week sporting event - that will sell fewer tickets than The Fringe does every year - costing and how is their own (?)?290m refurb of their subway line coming along?

 

Whatever helps you get through this difficult time.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I presume Edinburgh council has to fund ongoing operating losses as well?

 

Being a Lothians or Fife council taxpayer must be increasingly attractive!

[Dunks]

Yet post-Concordat the SG has cut ?650m in the coming budget from the funding.

 

Which is a reduction on the cut from Westminster.

 

I'm no SNP fan, but I do prefer to see the full facts rather than snippets to suit a political agenda.

[Coco]

I presume Edinburgh council has to fund ongoing operating losses as well?

 

Being a Lothians or Fife council taxpayer must be increasingly attractive!

 

They have formed another arms length company to try to hide the operating losses.

[Nookie Bear]

I hope the trams will be a success (I certainly supported their construction) but my fear is that people will be so determined to hate them any little flaw or problem will become A Big Thing.

 

 

if I had to get somewhere and had the choice of a tram or bus then I would get the bus.

 

Reason? The fact our bus service is excellent and is more deserving of my custom. Oh, and sheer spite.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

if I had to get somewhere and had the choice of a tram or bus then I would get the bus.

 

Reason? The fact our bus service is excellent and is more deserving of my custom. Oh, and sheer spite.

Perhaps you're being a bit tongue in cheek (perhaps not) but I wonder if this really will be an issue. A lot of people are determined to hate them, no matter what.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Whatever helps you get through this difficult time.

It would help a bit more if I knew a bit more - the figures for the latest stretch of motorway were interesting.

[Nookie Bear]

Perhaps you're being a bit tongue in cheek (perhaps not) but I wonder if this really will be an issue. A lot of people are determined to hate them, no matter what.

 

Maybe not determined to hate them, but possibly very angry at the farcical cost and not in the mood to welcome them with open arms just yet.

[Alba gu Brath]

They're still perpetuating this old myth that the tram doesn't go all the way to the airport.

Probably because they haven't got any better material.

 

They still don't. Auld Reekies' lard asses will have to walk the last 100m on their ane pins. Shocking.

[dobmisterdobster]

 

However, we pay more on subsidy to private operators than we would if it were nationally owned. East Cost rail has been cheaper to run and more profitable since returned to public ownership. Its why the Scottish government shouldnt renew the franchise and just let it run under government control.

 

If the Scottish government set up and organisation to operate the Scotrail franchise, it would be deemed a conflict of interest so they can't do that.

 

On the subject of railway nationalisation. It's very unlikely to happen and no major party has it in their manifesto.

[Paolo]

 

 

They're still perpetuating this old myth that the tram doesn't go all the way to the airport.

Probably because they haven't got any better material.

 

It doesn't. At least not at the moment. You need tram lines to do that. The bus stops right outside the terminal, and check in desks. There are no tram lines. Nor are there any close by.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Simon Says

[davemclaren]

It doesn't. At least not at the moment. You need tram lines to do that. The bus stops right outside the terminal, and check in desks. There are no tram lines. Nor are there any close by.

 

It's not much of a walk to the tram stop to be fair.

[Coco]

It's not much of a walk to the tram stop to be fair.

 

Much less than the walk to the handful of tram stops elsewhere on the half line I suppose.

 

Anyone thinking of using the road train, make sure that you don't wait for it on a rainy day. Fittingly for one of the worst transport projects in the world, the shelters are some of the worst in the world.

 

[Paolo]

 

 

It's not much of a walk to the tram stop to be fair.

 

Maybe it is closer than I think. There is practically no walk with the bus though. It is also quicker and cheaper.

[Ribble]

Latest brainwave in an effort to appease the Shandwick Place 'traders' is to re-name the Shandwick Place tram stop 'Prices Street/West End' to confuse tourists into getting off the tram early and go to Boots, RS McColl or the Fantasy Palace instead of Jenners and Debenhams!

[FWJ]

Think there might be an 'n' missing in there somewhere - otherwise it's just going to put people off even more!