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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

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will-i-am-a-jambo
37 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I cycle a bit around the town but the pot holes are becoming a real hazard now. They are worse where the bus lanes are because the buses using them are too heavy for the quality of surface. Something needs done to make the surface more hard wearing especially the inside lanes used by buses. You get to know a few short cuts down side roads but many of them in the city centre are cobbled which is even worse. 

 

I can understand that and completely agree with you. I'm quite fortunate in that most of my route to work is off-Road and on a designated cycle path. The potholes are a big problem in Edinburgh. This is a council issue but they don't seem to do anything about it. Ideally l'd like to see more designated and kerbed/separated cycle paths to encourage people to go by bicycle like what they do in Amsterdam. They have made a start in some places like near the Pleasance and some sections on Leith Walk. I know there are plans around Haymarket/Melville Street and George St as well but it's not enough. I appreciate that these things cost but they are a fraction of what it costs to build a new road.

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Toxteth O'Grady
13 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you made a quick recovery. I completely understand your reluctance to get back in the saddle. You must've received quite a shock. Sadly there are too many idiots on the roads and this is becoming a problem. The 20mph limits were put in place for exactly this reason (to make them safer) but l still see people driving at 30 and above. The amount of times l've been cut up by drivers and the lack of respect shown towards me 'just because l'm on a bike' is unbelievable. 

It was a good few years ago and I still cycle, just not on the roads much and certainly not across town in the rush hours.

 

As you say there are plenty of drivers that have no time for cyclists.

 

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mutley
1 hour ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

His workmates would think he was a weirdo if he cycled to work

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will-i-am-a-jambo
3 minutes ago, mutley said:

His workmates would think he was a weirdo if he cycled to work

 

Or a genius? Fine line between madness and ingenuity!

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Dunks

image.thumb.png.ac0e05eeceb6304c7492559e58064b54.png

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Dunks

Constitution Street

 

image.png.06aaf2c567c41f769dd3d7e3187c4cd4.png

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Dunks

Elm Row

 

image.png.8df775017dd8f17ef6b26d9307c6d2b3.png

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Dunks

Ocean Drive

 

image.png.3e9b3770430ea66fde981cd1ee679114.png

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...a bit disco
1 minute ago, Dunks said:

Constitution Street

 

image.png.06aaf2c567c41f769dd3d7e3187c4cd4.png

 

That car's in a spot of bother.

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Dunks

How it looked in 1924 :D

 

image.png.fd5a7aba0bbb63d9bd0f823d47468865.png

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Dunks
1 minute ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

That car's in a spot of bother.

 

It's following the Tram :thumbsup:

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Seymour M Hersh
7 hours ago, davemclaren said:

That’s democracy for you. 

 

Not representative democracy though. 

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...a bit disco
1 minute ago, Dunks said:

 

It's following the Tram :thumbsup:

 

So you say.

 

Hope his insurance premiums are up to date, just to be on the safe side.

 

:(

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Seymour M Hersh
3 hours ago, Old Castle Rock said:

Makes you wonder how this clowncil gets voted in, oh well more community charge to pay and hidden taxes invented for Edinburgh residents,parking charges hike, bus fares will rocket, there will be shops going bust doon the walk while services will be cut , crumbling pavements and roads, while litter builds up, super, smashing, great 

Why couldn't the council wait for the result of the ongoing enquiry which has cost us millions? 

 

Five years and £10million so far. I would suggest they rushed ahead to avoid a difficult outcome but if the Holyrood inquiry is anything to go by it wouldn't have caused them a problem. 

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Dunks
6 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

So you say.

 

Hope his insurance premiums are up to date, just to be on the safe side.

 

:(

 

You have a point - this is Dublin this morning:

 

image.png.11e2ad7fbc76122ca72b2a50cedd8e9c.png

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...a bit disco
1 minute ago, Dunks said:

 

You have a point - this is Dublin this morning:

 

image.png.11e2ad7fbc76122ca72b2a50cedd8e9c.png

 

Telt ye!

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The Frenchman Returns

Question on Pointless tonight, name Edinburgh Tram stops, contestants didn't bother

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jambo-rocker
14 hours ago, Locky said:

Seems a bit strange that they're moving the stop from York Place to Picardy. Just assumed they would leave that and have a stop at Elm Row/Gayfield Square.

 

Also anyone know how the line is gonna run between Foot of the Walk and the shore? Constitution Street is too narrow I'd say and to send it round Junction Street and down Henderson Street would be madness.

 

I imagine it might be closed off to cars entirely. It's a surprisingly quiet street all things considered (I should know as I live around the corner from it). The real issues will be the foot of the walk and junction street parts and doing it as seamlessly and promptly as possible.

 

12 hours ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

 

From a Leith to Gorgie perspective, taking the Ferry Road/water of Leith cycle route is far better for negotiating traffic and pot holes. Ignorant people in the way can be a bit of a bother mind.

As long as you're not trying to hammer your speed it should be fine however.

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frankblack
25 minutes ago, jambo-rocker said:

 

I imagine it might be closed off to cars entirely. It's a surprisingly quiet street all things considered (I should know as I live around the corner from it). The real issues will be the foot of the walk and junction street parts and doing it as seamlessly and promptly as possible.

 

I doubt two trams could pass each other on that street, and cars still need access for homes and businesses.

 

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jambo-rocker
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

I doubt two trams could pass each other on that street, and cars still need access for homes and businesses.

 

 

I would imagine they might make the trams one lane like at York Place? I also wouldn't put it past making the road one way in that case, as there is a road parallel to it on Leith Links.

Edited by jambo-rocker

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davemclaren
12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Not representative democracy though. 

They were voted in to represent so it is representative democracy. 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
15 hours ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

I can understand that and completely agree with you. I'm quite fortunate in that most of my route to work is off-Road and on a designated cycle path. The potholes are a big problem in Edinburgh. This is a council issue but they don't seem to do anything about it. Ideally l'd like to see more designated and kerbed/separated cycle paths to encourage people to go by bicycle like what they do in Amsterdam. They have made a start in some places like near the Pleasance and some sections on Leith Walk. I know there are plans around Haymarket/Melville Street and George St as well but it's not enough. I appreciate that these things cost but they are a fraction of what it costs to build a new road.

I was down Leith walk recently and the new cycle path there weaves around the back of bus stops with people standing or walking in them because they don't realise it is for bikes, it is not very clear it is there. Another one is planned for Roseburn to Haymarket but I see the shops are up in arms against it. It is all very haphazard and confusing for everyone at the moment.

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Seymour M Hersh
1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

They were voted in to represent so it is representative democracy. 

 

But they're not doing that Dave. I have virtually never come across anyone in the city in favour of the tram yet here we are. 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
14 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

You have a point - this is Dublin this morning:

 

image.png.11e2ad7fbc76122ca72b2a50cedd8e9c.png

I was stuck in a traffic jam in Palmerston place when a tram and bus came together in Atholl Place a couple of years ago. The narrow streets down at the bottom of Leith walk will be difficult to make safe for all users and I can see huge congestion with the buses happening as trams have priority. 

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Stuart Lyon

rom today's EEN - what a price to pay for 2.8 miles of vanity tram track and we all know it will go over the projected cost!

Trams.png

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davemclaren
54 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

But they're not doing that Dave. I have virtually never come across anyone in the city in favour of the tram yet here we are. 

You need to vote for someone else next time then. 😄

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Seymour M Hersh
4 hours ago, davemclaren said:

You need to vote for someone else next time then. 😄

 

Tbh they're all a bunch of self important shysters. Out of interest did any party or individual councillor campaign on extending the trams asap?

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davemclaren
7 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Tbh they're all a bunch of self important shysters. Out of interest did any party or individual councillor campaign on extending the trams asap?

No idea. I’m a Midlothian resident.  😎

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Seymour M Hersh
Just now, davemclaren said:

No idea. I’m a Midlothian resident.  😎

 

Then you have no say on this thread! :bolt::laugh:

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davemclaren
Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Then you have no say on this thread! :bolt::laugh:

😳😄

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will-i-am-a-jambo

I haven't read this whole thread but why don't the council install trolley buses instead of trams? They run on electricity and you don't need to put rails down/move any utilities. They could have it so that they have a designated part of the road like the tram to avoid the congestion. I've seen some in other countries and you can even attach bikes to the front of them.

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will-i-am-a-jambo
9 hours ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I was down Leith walk recently and the new cycle path there weaves around the back of bus stops with people standing or walking in them because they don't realise it is for bikes, it is not very clear it is there. Another one is planned for Roseburn to Haymarket but I see the shops are up in arms against it. It is all very haphazard and confusing for everyone at the moment.

 

Thats a good point actually. I cycle part of the Leith Walk section when l go to my mums. Ive had to ring my bell quite a lot negotiating the bus stops. As you say it's very confusing. You're right about the Roseburn/Haymarket one. I've seen the plans.

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Toggie88
13 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

I haven't read this whole thread but why don't the council install trolley buses instead of trams? They run on electricity and you don't need to put rails down/move any utilities. They could have it so that they have a designated part of the road like the tram to avoid the congestion. I've seen some in other countries and you can even attach bikes to the front of them.

 

Yup - been thinking this as well. A lot of cities which have recently completed/planning light rail projects have gone for trolley buses instead of trams. 

 

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superjack
30 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

Yup - been thinking this as well. A lot of cities which have recently completed/planning light rail projects have gone for trolley buses instead of trams. 

 

I've just been reading about trolleybus systems and I can't understand why Edinburgh council didn't go for them, makes a lot more sense and a far cheaper option.

1 thing I'm wondering, if a trolleybus turns the wrong way, i.e. away from their powerlines, will the bus be stuck until someone comes along with a set of jump leads?

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Toggie88
5 minutes ago, superjack said:

I've just been reading about trolleybus systems and I can't understand why Edinburgh council didn't go for them, makes a lot more sense and a far cheaper option.

1 thing I'm wondering, if a trolleybus turns the wrong way, i.e. away from their powerlines, will the bus be stuck until someone comes along with a set of jump leads?

 

Apologies. I was thinking about street cars/trolleys, as opposed to trolleybuses - although looking into them, they do look like they would be a hell of a lot cheaper. 

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FWJ

There are a number of disadvantages - they actually need wider paths because they can drift from side to side, unlike a railed tram.  They can’t overtake each other like a normal bus and the mesh of wires (“cobweb ceiling”) at intersections is pretty unsightly.  Trams also carry more people and are a more efficient use of road-space 

Trolley buses were also nick- named ‘silent death’.

But there’s another couple of things that are more hard to pin down. 

They are buses - and people are more likely to leave their cars for a tram than a bus.

There’s a permanence to trams that make people and businesses more likely to invest in an area a tram serves.

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Geoff the Mince
2 minutes ago, FWJ said:

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/175791-edinburgh-tram-completion-of-route/

 

2/3 in favour of completion of the line in this poll.  

And when it comes to trams, JKB is a tough crowd.

I'm for having a tram network but over £200 million for less than 3 miles seems ludicrous.

 

How much will other sections be ?  Will we be looking at another 1\2 billion in  borrowing ?

 

 

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Smithee
21 hours ago, Stuart Lyon said:

rom today's EEN - what a price to pay for 2.8 miles of vanity tram track and we all know it will go over the projected cost!

Trams.png

I wouldn't claim to know the details, but that doesn't sound right at all. They'll only increase revenues by 773k a year?

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Seymour M Hersh
2 hours ago, FWJ said:

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/175791-edinburgh-tram-completion-of-route/

 

2/3 in favour of completion of the line in this poll.  

And when it comes to trams, JKB is a tough crowd.

 

That's desperation using that as some kind of indicator that the citizens of Edinburgh ever wanted a tram. 

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cheetah

still better than what they have in the west bank :lol: 

Image result for illuminous tram

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FWJ
50 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

That's desperation using that as some kind of indicator that the citizens of Edinburgh ever wanted a tram. 

I bet if the figures were reversed you wouldn’t describe it as ‘desperation’.

 

Any progress on asking about the £1.6billion?

 

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Seymour M Hersh
1 hour ago, FWJ said:

I bet if the figures were reversed you wouldn’t describe it as ‘desperation’.

 

Any progress on asking about the £1.6billion?

 

 

95  folk on here take part in a poll and you think that's an indication of the citizens of Edinburgh? You are desperate. 

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FWJ
49 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

95  folk on here take part in a poll and you think that's an indication of the citizens of Edinburgh? You are desperate. 

We don’t know where these people are from - but if they are from Edinburgh then it is an indication, not a very high sample number, but an indication none the less and certainly as useful as some nebulous figure heard once in a bar.

 I could say that most of the people I know in Edinburgh were for the trams, frustrated and disappointed at the implementation of the first stretch of line, but now that they’re up and running are very happy with them and would like to see them extended.  But I’ve no proof of that that I can offer it’s just my experience.

And of course I daresay you will respond with the opposite.

 

But passenger numbers rising at 10% annually and passenger satisfaction in the high 90s % would suggest that more and more are trying them and liking them.

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Toggie88
7 minutes ago, FWJ said:

We don’t know where these people are from - but if they are from Edinburgh then it is an indication, not a very high sample number, but an indication none the less and certainly as useful as some nebulous figure heard once in a bar.

 I could say that most of the people I know in Edinburgh were for the trams, frustrated and disappointed at the implementation of the first stretch of line, but now that they’re up and running are very happy with them and would like to see them extended.  But I’ve no proof of that that I can offer it’s just my experience.

And of course I daresay you will respond with the opposite.

 

But passenger numbers rising at 10% annually and passenger satisfaction in the high 90s % would suggest that more and more are trying them and liking them.

 

See - there numerous factors for this though.

 

The 10% increase in numbers could be for numerous reasons: Increased road congestion (people moving from cars/buses), increased population (Edinburgh's population continues to rise), increased home building on the route (numerous new homes have been added in vicinity) of the existing route, and Edinburgh Airport has itself seen over 10% rise year on year for the last few years - which alone could account for increase in tram users. 

 

90% Satisfaction isn't surprising when you consider that the other available options for public transport in Edinburgh consists solely of buses. Give someone a car after a life of riding on a horse and they'll be satisfied as well. 

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Koolkeith
13 hours ago, FWJ said:

There are a number of disadvantages - they actually need wider paths because they can drift from side to side, unlike a railed tram.  They can’t overtake each other like a normal bus and the mesh of wires (“cobweb ceiling”) at intersections is pretty unsightly.  Trams also carry more people and are a more efficient use of road-space 

Trolley buses were also nick- named ‘silent death’.

But there’s another couple of things that are more hard to pin down. 

They are buses - and people are more likely to leave their cars for a tram than a bus.

There’s a permanence to trams that make people and businesses more likely to invest in an area a tram serves.

What you basing this on?

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Dunks
Posted (edited)

I travel round Edinburgh a lot with work. I'd say the split in forms of transport by distance as follows:

 

65% Car 

15% Tram

15% Walk

5% Taxi

0% Bus

 

I have no idea what buses go where or when, but I know exactly where the tram goes. The taxi rides are generally walkable, but I'm either later or it's pissing down.

 

If I didn't include my initial commute into Edinburgh, the car percentage would drop to around 5%.

Edited by Dunks

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