Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[FWJ]

8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Have the idiots in the council ever actually released the cash taken on the white elephant line?  I've seen plenty of them banging on about how the user numbers are, in their eyes, soaring but I've never seen anything released about how much hard cash it takes daily, monthly or annually. 

https://edinburghtrams.com/about-trams/our-company

[Geoff the Mince]

Just now, FWJ said:

I fancy a wee  myself.

 

I might go back to the beginning of this thread and read some of the predictions about trams never running, having to get shuttle bus from the tram stop to the airport terminal, the airport bus being forced off (how many routes are there now - 4?) daily riots as conductors demand £1000, daily traffic chaos as trams break down left, right and centre, tourists deserting the city (how’s that working out?) businesses deserting it too.

Might have a wee ROFL too.

Do you not agree  that the  tram has not reduced congestion or pollution . ?

 

It was one of the so called benefits of the tram .

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 minutes ago, FWJ said:

https://edinburghtrams.com/about-trams/our-company

 

Where does it say how much they made from cash fares?  Also how do they work out how much is allocated to trams from bus pass/day saver usage?

[Cade]

Did or did the trams not cost over £1billion?

Is or is not Edinburgh Council paying tens of millions of pounds in interest payments every year that could and should be spent on public services instead?

[FWJ]

32 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Do you not agree  that the  tram has not reduced congestion or pollution . ?

 

It was one of the so called benefits of the tram .

 

 

I don’t know if it’s reduced congestion - maybe there would be more congestion if there were no trams.

I can tell you though that it’s very difficult to get a parking space at Ingleston P&R

[FWJ]

32 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Where does it say how much they made from cash fares?  Also how do they work out how much is allocated to trams from bus pass/day saver usage?

I don’t know.

I’d imagine that the ‘revenue’ figures on page 6 would be largely from fares.  Don’t know what other revenue there would be, other than advertising.

[FWJ]

33 minutes ago, Cade said:

Did or did the trams not cost over £1billion?

Is or is not Edinburgh Council paying tens of millions of pounds in interest payments every year that could and should be spent on public services instead?

No.  They didn’t cost over a billion pounds.

The trams are a public service.

[Seymour M Hersh]

18 minutes ago, FWJ said:

No.  They didn’t cost over a billion pounds.

The trams are a public service.

 

I wonder why Experian's 2012 costing came to £1.6billion then?

Edited February 22, 2019 by Seymour M Hersh

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, FWJ said:

Yes, the Leidsestraat is one - very narrow street and crowded with pedestrians but they seem to manage fine.

(I was going to post a pic but most seem to be copyright?)

That's exactly the one that sprung to my mind too

[FWJ]

17 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I wonder why Experian's 2012 costing came to £1.6billion then?

Do you have a link to this?

[Seymour M Hersh]

6 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Do you have a link to this?

 

No and I'm not sure it was ever made public. One of their Directors told me about it but didn't elaborate on the criteria used.

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

No and I'm not sure it was ever made public. One of their Directors told me about it but didn't elaborate on the criteria used.

So there’s no link.

May I ask the circumstances in which you heard this?

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 minute ago, FWJ said:

So there’s no link.

May I ask the circumstances in which you heard this?

 

 

Why?

[FWJ]

Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Why?

I have a memory of this figure before. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, FWJ said:

I have a memory of this figure before. 

 

I have posted it on other Tram threads before. 

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, FWJ said:

Yes, the Leidsestraat is one - very narrow street and crowded with pedestrians but they seem to manage fine.

(I was going to post a pic but most seem to be copyright?)

Here we go, you can see how both lines merge into one for the really narrow part 

 

[Cade]

The problem is that our trams are not nice wee skinny ones but giant feckin monsters.

[FWJ]

7 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I have posted it on other Tram threads before. 

Is it the one you heard in a bar after quite a few drinks?

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

The problem is that our trams are not nice wee skinny ones but giant feckin monsters.

I can’t help but think if Edinburgh’s trams were ‘wee skinny ones’ that would be a problem for some too.

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

The problem is that our trams are not nice wee skinny ones but giant feckin monsters.

They look pretty similar to me, although I haven't spent much time looking as I'm not living in Edinburgh to be fair!

 

There'll be a way though, the challenges Edinburgh face aren't unique. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, FWJ said:

Is it the one you heard in a bar after quite a few drinks?

 

Only a couple of drinks. 

[FWJ]

41 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Only a couple of drinks. 

Oh.

I’ve just had a wee search and in a previous post you said you were “having a chat over a drink (or 5)”

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Oh.

I’ve just had a wee search and in a previous post you said you were “having a chat over a drink (or 5)”

 

Your point?

[FWJ]

9 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Your point?

My point is that you are quoting a figure that is over twice as much as the official figure - indeed it’s hundreds of millions of pounds more than any other figure I’ve seen reported anywhere, even on here.  You heard this figure from someone in a bar after an undetermined number of drinks.  This figure is not and never will be in the public domain. (This surprises me because it is so vastly larger than any other it would be dynamite for the anti-tram people).  Because it’s not in the public domain it cannot be examined or tested.

I don’t think it is unreasonable in those circumstances to question the figure’s accuracy.

Edited February 22, 2019 by FWJ

[XB52]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Did or did the trams not cost over £1billion?

Is or is not Edinburgh Council paying tens of millions of pounds in interest payments every year that could and should be spent on public services instead?

I doubt there is anyone who thinks the original team line was a model of fiscal genius but that is in the past. We must ensure that the extension, or completion really, is fully monitored so disregard controlled. I was against the trams originally, seeing them as just a Labour vanity project but they are here, working well, and there is going to be a lot more of them in a few years

[3fingersreid]

5 hours ago, FWJ said:

No.  They didn’t cost over a billion pounds.

The trams are a public service.

 

2 hours ago, FWJ said:

My point is that you are quoting a figure that is over twice as much as the official figure - indeed it’s hundreds of millions of pounds more than any other figure I’ve seen reported anywhere, even on here.  You heard this figure from someone in a bar after an undetermined number of drinks.  This figure is not and never will be in the public domain. (This surprises me because it is so vastly larger than any other it would be dynamite for the anti-tram people).  Because it’s not in the public domain it cannot be examined or tested.

I don’t think it is unreasonable in those circumstances to question the figure’s accuracy.

If it’s a public service why shouldn’t the total cost of the tram line be in the public domain ? Can’t be any benifet for not telling us and would stop rumours of inaccurate costs surely . 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by 3fingersreid

[Dunks]

Build and associated costs were £776M with £500M of that coming directly from the Scottish Government.

[Seymour M Hersh]

7 hours ago, FWJ said:

My point is that you are quoting a figure that is over twice as much as the official figure - indeed it’s hundreds of millions of pounds more than any other figure I’ve seen reported anywhere, even on here.  You heard this figure from someone in a bar after an undetermined number of drinks.  This figure is not and never will be in the public domain. (This surprises me because it is so vastly larger than any other it would be dynamite for the anti-tram people).  Because it’s not in the public domain it cannot be examined or tested.

I don’t think it is unreasonable in those circumstances to question the figure’s accuracy.

 

Why would he make it up? And having a couple of drinks while discussing it is cutely irrelevant. Stop trying to infer  it was some kind of bravado caused by drink and the someone in a bar was a director of the company.

 

Why are you so defensive of a project the vast majority of the citizens of Edinburgh did not want? Do you work for the council or are you a councillor?

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, Dunks said:

Build and associated costs were £776M with £500M of that coming directly from the Scottish Government.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/revealed-final-cost-of-edinburgh-trams-scheme-will-be-1-billion-1-4638558

 

 

[FWJ]

39 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Why would he make it up? And having a couple of drinks while discussing it is cutely irrelevant. Stop trying to infer  it was some kind of bravado caused by drink and the someone in a bar was a director of the company.

 

Why are you so defensive of a project the vast majority of the citizens of Edinburgh did not want? Do you work for the council or are you a councillor?

I didn’t say he made it up.

But it was a figure you heard, once and from one person, in an .... informal setting.  No-one else has ever heard it, it is and will remain unpublished and we have no idea how this figure was reached. A figure that is over twice as high as the official figure and £600 million more than any other.

And we have to just accept it as gospel?

[FWJ]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Why would he make it up? And having a couple of drinks while discussing it is cutely irrelevant. Stop trying to infer  it was some kind of bravado caused by drink and the someone in a bar was a director of the company.

 

Why are you so defensive of a project the vast majority of the citizens of Edinburgh did not want? Do you work for the council or are you a councillor?

I don’t work for the council and I’m not a councillor but I think trams make a positive contribution to public transport in the city.

The management of the initial stretch was very poor and hugely over-budget (but I await proof that it was over £800million over budget) but it doesn’t make the idea of trams poor.

A poll on here (hardly a flag-bearer for the project) had 2/3 in favour of the Newhaven extension.  An oft voiced complaint is ‘the trams are no use to me, I live miles from the line’.  How better to improve the numbers served than by extending the line through the most densely populated part of the city?

 

[Justin Z]

9 hours ago, FWJ said:

My point is that you are quoting a figure that is over twice as much as the official figure - indeed it’s hundreds of millions of pounds more than any other figure I’ve seen reported anywhere, even on here.  You heard this figure from someone in a bar after an undetermined number of drinks.  This figure is not and never will be in the public domain. (This surprises me because it is so vastly larger than any other it would be dynamite for the anti-tram people).  Because it’s not in the public domain it cannot be examined or tested.

I don’t think it is unreasonable in those circumstances to question the figure’s accuracy.

 

But it confirms Seymour's preexisting bias. Therefore it's the correct figure.

[Dunks]

3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/revealed-final-cost-of-edinburgh-trams-scheme-will-be-1-billion-1-4638558

 

 

 

This figure includes borrowing costs over the lifetime of the loans. I've never seen any other capital project reported in this manner.

 

As FWJ states, the management of the project was very poor, as was the delivery. Now it is there, the benefits and success are clear to see and just like many other tram projects throughout Europe, demand will increase for further extensions.

 

The Newhaven extension is the real acid test. Feck this one up and that'll be it. Deliver within budget and I suspect demand for further extensions will increase.

 

I see the Council is to trial traffic-free zones in the Old Town. All well intentioned, but to work properly, you need a fully integrated public transport system to move people around. One that doesn't get clogged in traffic.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

This figure includes borrowing costs over the lifetime of the loans. I've never seen any other capital project reported in this manner.

 

As FWJ states, the management of the project was very poor, as was the delivery. Now it is there, the benefits and success are clear to see and just like many other tram projects throughout Europe, demand will increase for further extensions.

 

The Newhaven extension is the real acid test. Feck this one up and that'll be it. Deliver within budget and I suspect demand for further extensions will increase.

 

I see the Council is to trial traffic-free zones in the Old Town. All well intentioned, but to work properly, you need a fully integrated public transport system to move people around. One that doesn't get clogged in traffic.

I look forward to more roadworks in Edinburgh.

Edinburgh wouldn’t be the same without roadworks.

Bring it on.

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, FWJ said:

I didn’t say he made it up.

But it was a figure you heard, once and from one person, in an .... informal setting.  No-one else has ever heard it, it is and will remain unpublished and we have no idea how this figure was reached. A figure that is over twice as high as the official figure and £600 million more than any other.

And we have to just accept it as gospel?

 

I've never suggested it be accepted as gospel these are your words.

 

I'm sure others have but perhaps not JKB posters. However, I have said that he did not explain the criteria used to get his figure. My guess it was a purely internal project (for whatever reason) but I still have no reason to doubt him. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Seymour M Hersh

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

But it confirms Seymour's preexisting bias. Therefore it's the correct figure.

 

You really are a piece of work sonny.

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I look forward to more roadworks in Edinburgh.

Edinburgh wouldn’t be the same without roadworks.

Bring it on.

 

They're talking about 18 months of Leith Walk down to 1 lane. Did they not do enough damage to the local economy down there last time?

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

They're talking about 18 months of Leith Walk down to 1 lane. Did they not do enough damage to the local economy down there last time?

Exactly.

An absolute joke.

They couldn’t give a shiny one as long as their wee toy exists.

[FWJ]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I've never suggested it be accepted as gospel these are your words.

 

I'm sure others have but perhaps not JKB posters. However, I have said that he did not explain the criteria used to get his figure. My guess it was a purely internal project (for whatever reason) but I still have no reason to doubt him. 

Didn’t you ask him how they arrived at a figure that was twice as much as the official estimate and hundreds of millions of pounds more than even the most inflated other estimates?

You clearly are opposed to the tram project, I’d have thought you would have been curious even if it was for nothing more than additional weight to your argument  - and let’s face it the local press would have been very interested too.

[Stuart Lyon]

A vanity project if ever there was one! Caused me to spoil my ballot paper at the last council elections for the first time in my life and i'm approaching 70! Council = a  bunch of charlatans!

[Dunks]

3 hours ago, Stuart Lyon said:

A vanity project if ever there was one! Caused me to spoil my ballot paper at the last council elections for the first time in my life and i'm approaching 70! Council = a  bunch of charlatans!

 

That'll show them

[Justin Z]

22 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You really are a piece of work sonny.

 

?

[Stuart Lyon]

Surprise, Surprise a committee of Councillors has approved the lengthening of the vanity tram project and it will now go to a vote of the full Council next month! No doubt the laces will rubber stamp it despite the capital cost of £200M+ and the interest of £164M that will accrue after borrowing that sum! Hell mend them!

[Don Dan]

Folly part 2

[Jamboelite]

On 23/02/2019 at 06:14, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Why would he make it up? And having a couple of drinks while discussing it is cutely irrelevant. Stop trying to infer  it was some kind of bravado caused by drink and the someone in a bar was a director of the company.

 

Why are you so defensive of a project the vast majority of the citizens of Edinburgh did not want? Do you work for the council or are you a councillor?

Come on you heard it cost £1.6 billion from a guy in a pub with no factual evidence and you wonder why someone highlights it ?

 

 

[Dunks]

Excellent news! Let's hope Full Council backs it on the 14th

[Seymour M Hersh]

54 minutes ago, Jamboelite said:

Come on you heard it cost £1.6 billion from a guy in a pub with no factual evidence and you wonder why someone highlights it ?

 

 

 

Oh dear me some guy in a pub.

 

You mean a highly regarded financial services director I've known for years. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Seymour M Hersh

[FWJ]

9 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Oh dear me some guy in a pub.

 

You mean a highly regarded financial services director I've known for years. 

Since you are so implacably opposed to the tram and you’ve “known for years” this guy, why don’t you ask him how that figure was arrived at.  It is, it’s worth repeating, more than twice as much as the official figure and several hundred million pounds more than even the most inflated other guesses I’ve read on here.

If this figure was accurate it would kill any plans for an extension.  The media would have a field day, and yet you’ve never asked.

If it’s confidential, why is it confidential?

 

I am genuinely intrigued at the enormous disparity.

 

[Dunks]

More excellent news from the cooncil - should be a formality now

 

Council approves Edinburgh tram extension contracts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47485326

 

[Mysterion]

3 hours ago, Dunks said:

More excellent news from the cooncil - should be a formality now

 

Council approves Edinburgh tram extension contracts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47485326

 

 

Once that's done - wonder if stretching it to Portobello is next... or through London Road to Meadowbank.