Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Stuart Lyon]

22 hours ago, FWJ said:

The extension will be self-financing and will not take money from other council services.

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2616/councillors_to_scrutinise_trams_to_newhaven_final_business_case_ahead_of_march_decision

 

But the buses are being told to gift the tram lengthening project £20M so the Council is lying! What improvements to the bus service could be had for £20M?

[FWJ]

5 minutes ago, Stuart Lyon said:

 

But the buses are being told to gift the tram lengthening project £20M so the Council is lying! What improvements to the bus service could be had for £20M?

The funding from the buses is mentioned in paragraph 5.

 

As another contributor to this thread, who uses the buses very regularly, notes - a lot of the hold ups are caused when “buses get backed up by other buses”.  Leith Walk is close to saturation with buses and so trams on this route will take some of the pressure off rather than excacerbating the situation with even more buses.

 

The same contributor also noted hold-ups caused by delays in people getting on and off and the unfamiliar searching for the correct change to pay the driver. Neither of these situations is a problem with trams.

[FWJ]

The fact is the trams have proved to be a huge success, better than expected.  Many of those opposed to them now (grudgingly perhaps) see that.

Which of the predictions of never running, not running to the airport terminal, daily break-downs, daily riots as conductors demand £1000 fines, traffic chaos and tourists and businesses deserting the city etc etc have come to pass?

[Harry Potter]

2 hours ago, FWJ said:

The fact is the trams have proved to be a huge success, better than expected.  Many of those opposed to them now (grudgingly perhaps) see that.

Which of the predictions of never running, not running to the airport terminal, daily break-downs, daily riots as conductors demand £1000 fines, traffic chaos and tourists and businesses deserting the city etc etc have come to pass?

Never been on one, nearest stop from drumbrae is the gyle centre, nice wee 2 mile walk, to get one.

Stick to the car.

[Stuart Lyon]

2 hours ago, FWJ said:

The funding from the buses is mentioned in paragraph 5.

 

As another contributor to this thread, who uses the buses very regularly, notes - a lot of the hold ups are caused when “buses get backed up by other buses”.  Leith Walk is close to saturation with buses and so trams on this route will take some of the pressure off rather than excacerbating the situation with even more buses.

 

The same contributor also noted hold-ups caused by delays in people getting on and off and the unfamiliar searching for the correct change to pay the driver. Neither of these situations is a problem with trams.

So the gift from the buses is mentioned I never denied that to was. I was pointing out that the Council lied by saying no other services would be affected by the funding of the vanity tram but clearly the bus service will be.

[FWJ]

I would count ‘Transport’ as one service and the introduction of trams to LW will improve transport generally - as a previous contributor noted too many buses leads to bunching and delays.

 

Don’t you think the “vanity” tram thing has maybe had its day?

[FWJ]

1 hour ago, Harry Potter said:

Never been on one, nearest stop from drumbrae is the gyle centre, nice wee 2 mile walk, to get one.

Stick to the car.

Fair enough (though there’s an excellent bus service too remember!).  No-one is being forced onto trams at gun point - though an ever increasing number are finding them useful, passenger numbers up 10% last year to over 7.3 million.

[davemclaren]

I like the tram but my old farts pass isn’t valid on it. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Does anyone actually believe that the extension to Newhaven will cost only £196 million?

 

Given the way the original build and the contracts surrounding it went I'd say that's a very optimistic. 

[Toggie88]

We should've bit the bullet in the early 90s and went with plans for 2 metro lines, re-opening the southern sub and adding stations on existing rail routes. 

 

 

https://www.edinburghtrams.info/the_network/studies

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, Toggie88 said:

We should've bit the bullet in the early 90s and went with plans for 2 metro lines, re-opening the southern sub and adding stations on existing rail routes. 

 

 

https://www.edinburghtrams.info/the_network/studies

Imagine the complaints about disruption due to that plan. 😄

[Toggie88]

51 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Imagine the complaints about disruption due to that plan. 😄

 

Aye, would be done by now though... maybe

[Greenbank2]

23 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Does anyone actually believe that the extension to Newhaven will cost only £196 million?

 

Given the way the original build and the contracts surrounding it went I'd say that's a very optimistic. 

Yes. They (the council) had their fingers so badly burned the first time around, for once the phrase "lessons learned" i trust, will be accurate.

[jack D and coke]

On 08/02/2019 at 14:21, FWJ said:

The tram was never meant to be the fast way from the city centre (or indeed Leith) to the Airport - that was to be EARL (which was cancelled to help pay for the  dualling of the A9 - cost £3billion).  The tram was to take large numbers of passengers off increasingly overloaded bus routes to the rapidly expanding areas of Edinburgh Park etc and also down the mostly densely populated part of the country - Leith Walk.

Passenger numbers on the existing stretch are rising by about 10% annually (extra services have had to be introduced at peak times) and extending down LW to Newhaven will double the numbers using it.

If I read it correctly the borrowing to pay for the cost of the extension will be paid from fares since it is now running at a profit (earlier than expected)

 

I remember confident predictions that the airport bus (the 100) would be forced off in order to give the tram a face-saving monopoly.  There’s now what 3? 4? express bus routes to the airport along with the tram.  Confident predictions too that the (envy of the country) bus service would be brought to its knees.  Instead it, too, goes from strength to strength with massive new investment.  

 

The population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 150,000 over the next 25 years.  These people are going to have to get around somehow.  Edinburgh is doing what progressive, forward-thining and ambitious cities are doing around the world.

Maybe we should just stay a dour wee provincial backwater.

Agree totally. Invest in it and take it right to the outskirts of the town. 

You either want people to stop bringing cars into the city or you don’t. The only problem is we’re doing this all 10 years too late. 

[Jambothump]

On 10/02/2019 at 13:55, davemclaren said:

I like the tram but my old farts pass isn’t valid on it. 

Not an Edinburgh city resident then are you? it costs a bit more to pay for the privelige to live here, free trams for ove 60's is an occassinal benefit☺

[tian447]

On 11/02/2019 at 11:13, Toggie88 said:

We should've bit the bullet in the early 90s and went with plans for 2 metro lines, re-opening the southern sub and adding stations on existing rail routes. 

 

 

https://www.edinburghtrams.info/the_network/studies

 

That would have been pretty good!  Just about every city with a Metro system is an absolute breeze to get around.  Just think how different Edinburgh could have developed over the last 20 odd years with that in place!

 

Plus, aesthetically it doesn't have to look brilliant.  Been in some Eastern European cities that had some ancient, Soviet-era rolling stock, and it didn't matter a jot that they were a bit run down because of the sheer convenience they offer.

 

We should do it, and have a fancy Hearts Underground stop directly under the new stand  

[Mikey1874]

Council case for it, suggests Leith / Newhaven will go ahead.

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/blog/newsblog/post/1448/trams-are-set-to-transform-growing-city-council-leader-andamp-depute-leader

 

And

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2616/councillors_to_scrutinise_trams_to_newhaven_final_business_case_ahead_of_march_decision

Edited Friday at 14:48 by Mikey1874

[Stuart Lyon]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Council case for it, suggests Leith / Newhaven will go ahead.

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/blog/newsblog/post/1448/trams-are-set-to-transform-growing-city-council-leader-andamp-depute-leader

 

And

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2616/councillors_to_scrutinise_trams_to_newhaven_final_business_case_ahead_of_march_decision

 

A different point of view

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/trams-to-leith-it-s-time-to-deploy-some-pessimism-bias-john-mclellan-1-4872874

 

According to the Council's propaganda tw weekseets the Councillors have been scrutinising this for weeks and are still scrutinising it. Why don't they put it to a citizens vote and do the democratic thing. They won't because they don't like rejection.

[XB52]

21 minutes ago, Stuart Lyon said:

 

A different point of view

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/trams-to-leith-it-s-time-to-deploy-some-pessimism-bias-john-mclellan-1-4872874

 

According to the Council's propaganda tw weekseets the Councillors have been scrutinising this for weeks and are still scrutinising it. Why don't they put it to a citizens vote and do the democratic thing. They won't because they don't like rejection.

Evening News/Scotsman will always be against it because we have an SNP government and an SNP/Labour council. There is no doubt the original tram debacle was a huge cock up but, now they are there, the numbers seem to show they are popular and it's a 'no brainer' to go ahead and finish the line.

[Toggie88]

20 minutes ago, Stuart Lyon said:

 

A different point of view

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/trams-to-leith-it-s-time-to-deploy-some-pessimism-bias-john-mclellan-1-4872874

 

According to the Council's propaganda tw weekseets the Councillors have been scrutinising this for weeks and are still scrutinising it. Why don't they put it to a citizens vote and do the democratic thing. They won't because they don't like rejection.

 

What I can't get my head around is how it's so expensive. When you compare it to other European cities, Berlin for example, the cost per km of line is almost 4 times more expensive - doesn't make sense to me. You could understand a 20-25% increase but that's just ridiculous. 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

36 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

What I can't get my head around is how it's so expensive. When you compare it to other European cities, Berlin for example, the cost per km of line is almost 4 times more expensive - doesn't make sense to me. You could understand a 20-25% increase but that's just ridiculous. 

 

 

 

I've always thought that is the main question. 

 

Including the cost of moving underground services which caused the original problems when the work overran.