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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues


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Dusk_Till_Dawn

The thing about the trams is that if they go past an area where you live or go somewhere you want to go, they're really good. But they don't serve enough of the city and the cost is laughable

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The thing about the trams is that if they go past an area where you live or go somewhere you want to go, they're really good. But they don't serve enough of the city and the cost is laughable

Think this extension will make them more worthwhile. To not build off the route and make it more accessible makes it look a huge folly.

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?165m - where is this coming from?  No doubt speed cameras to extort money from drivers going over 20mph anywhere in Edinburgh.

 

I assume they have cleared the debt for the last tram project and aren't subsidizing the tram any more?

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I assume they have cleared the debt for the last tram project and aren't subsidizing the tram any more?

 

While they can theoretically, that appears to omit the capital payback and interest.

A bit like you buy a shop and take a ?100,000 mortgage on the property.

Before mortgage payback and rates  you show a profit of ?100 a month, but your mortgage payback ?750, so at that juncture you will go out of business very quickly as you debt will increase by ?650 a month.

So the long and short of it is the trams, which run at an average of 25% capacity will never really make a profit.

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luckyBatistuta

?165m - where is this coming from?  No doubt speed cameras to extort money from drivers going over 20mph anywhere in Edinburgh.

 

I assume they have cleared the debt for the last tram project and aren't subsidizing the tram any more?

Guaranteed to be way more than ?165, but these fekrs will stop at nothing when it comes to wasting our money. It will be more average speed cameras going forward imo. They stuck them up on Old Dalkeith Road, using a fatal as a reason for implementing them, yet it was a stolen car being chased by a police car, which could have happened anywhere. They just wanted to get them in without an outcry from the public and who would complain after there had just been such a tragic accident. Now they have managed to get their first set up and running on a residential road, there will be more popping up within the city.
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Get that pleasing smiley out if you don't mind ?

North -South line next please

Yup. Down to (at least) the Royal and all the other developments at Little France. Thousands working there and further thousands visiting daily. That 'South East Wedge' is going to see a lot of the expected 120,000 extra population in the city.

 

I suppose alternatively we could have that nice motorway-on-stilts plan.

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Guaranteed to be way more than ?165, but these fekrs will stop at nothing when it comes to wasting our money. It will be more average speed cameras going forward imo. They stuck them up on Old Dalkeith Road, using a fatal as a reason for implementing them, yet it was a stolen car being chased by a police car, which could have happened anywhere. They just wanted to get them in without an outcry from the public and who would complain after there had just been such a tragic accident. Now they have managed to get their first set up and running on a residential road, there will be more popping up within the city.

 

I often read of folk moaning about speed cameras, whether fixed or average speed, and that the only reason they're there is to raise funds for the council. But if there was nobody speeding, then the council wouldn't make any money, but the desired outcome of their deployment would have been achieved.

 

When in town, slow down and all that :)

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FWJ - of course more people are using them as they have increased the number and frequency of the trams! But that strategy incurs additional running costs so they are probably no nearer making a profit than they ever were.

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Still can't see why the circle line around edinburgh can't be reopened for trains. The platforms are still there

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Still can't see why the circle line around edinburgh can't be reopened for trains. The platforms are still there

I think platform space / availability at Haymarket & Waverley maybe a problem. I'm sure Waverley is almost 'full'?

Edited by FWJ
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FWJ - those claims re profit do not include the interest payments on the sum borrowed to pay for the vanity project so they are totally misleading. Just another trick to try and justify their existence.

 

If they are making a profit why have the buses been told to donate ?20M to help fund the unjustified and unnecessary extension of this vanity project.

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They should be looking at a line out to the Royal Infirmary before any more disruption in Leith.  The RI is in the middle of ****ing nowhere and a nightmare to commute from the north west of the city by current public transport.

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FWJ - those claims re profit do not include the interest payments on the sum borrowed to pay for the vanity project so they are totally misleading. Just another trick to try and justify their existence.

 

If they are making a profit why have the buses been told to donate ?20M to help fund the unjustified and unnecessary extension of this vanity project.

Are all new tram systems 'vanity projects' - or just Edinburgh's?

 

Is dualling the A9 (at a cost of ?3,000,000,000 - not sure if the interest payments are included in that) a 'vanity project'?

 

What about the ?300,000,000 overhauling the Glasgow Subway less than 40 years after its last rebuild?

 

The ?hundreds of millions doing up the Edinburgh to Glasgow railway? Electric trains - vanity?

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luckyBatistuta

I often read of folk moaning about speed cameras, whether fixed or average speed, and that the only reason they're there is to raise funds for the council. But if there was nobody speeding, then the council wouldn't make any money, but the desired outcome of their deployment would have been achieved.

 

When in town, slow down and all that :)

I do see where your coming from with that, but the amount of erseholes who just hammer it as soon as they pass one makes them pointless, other than money making. This would then say that we need average speed cameras everywhere if the fixed aren't working, but I bloody hate them. The unbelievable amount of folk who drive way below the average and slow up the whole road is incredible. It's the same with this new 20mph, it's a nightmare. Folk drive at about 13/14mph and just cause tailbacks. I agree that every side street should be 20mph, more than fast enough, but the main roads should be 30mph imo, or even change back to 30mph after a certain time at night. I'd also make roads outside schools 10mph.
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deesidejambo

I can't understand why the Airport Bus still runs along almost the same route as the trams.

 

Are they not just duplicate services?

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I can't understand why the Airport Bus still runs along almost the same route as the trams.

 

Are they not just duplicate services?

Not quite, the airport bus goes on a slightly different route - along Corstorphine / St.John's / Glasgow Road.

 

There were confident predictions that the airport bus would be downgraded or even cancelled to 'force' people to use the tram but instead the bus service goes from strength to strength. Indeed a new express route to the airport has started, via the north if the city, from Ocean Terminal. I suppose this gives people a choice.

 

Many also question the time the tram takes from the city centre to the airport. The tram was never meant to be the 'fast' way - that was going to be EARL, the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. The plan was to have most of the rail lines to the north and west of the city (to Fife, Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Stirling & Glasgow etc) rerouted via Turnhouse to improve access to the rest of the country - and of course have a train the other way - into Waverley - every 5 minutes. IMHO a great idea, but it was cancelled.

 

Edit: I take it you mean the Aitport Express bus from Waverley Bridge?

There is another bus - the no. 35 - which more closely, but not exactly, follows the tram route but it takes a lot longer.

Edited by FWJ
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FWJ - only the EH trams are a vanity project from those you listed. 

 

Another point re alleged early attainment of profit - have they ever at any time published their business plan with profit targets clearly stated - I don't thinks so. That then begs the question; were they set deliberately low so propaganda statements like those you provided links for could be made to try and fool the public?

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#100 Airlink bus is faster and cheaper than the trams.

 

:rofl:

As explained above the trams were not designed to be the 'fast' way to the airport - that was to be EARL but it was cancelled.

 

I regularly take the tram to and from Ingleston P&R and there seems to be plenty of people using the tram to the airport.

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Montgomery Brewster

This extension is an absolute con. The council own a lot of land down the waterfront way. The only way they can sell it on at a higher value is if they get the line in there.

 

Any extension should goto hospital first.

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deesidejambo

Not quite, the airport bus goes on a slightly different route - along Corstorphine / St.John's / Glasgow Road.

 

There were confident predictions that the airport bus would be downgraded or even cancelled to 'force' people to use the tram but instead the bus service goes from strength to strength. Indeed a new express route to the airport has started, via the north if the city, from Ocean Terminal. I suppose this gives people a choice.

 

Many also question the time the tram takes from the city centre to the airport. The tram was never meant to be the 'fast' way - that was going to be EARL, the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. The plan was to have most of the rail lines to the north and west of the city (to Fife, Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Stirling & Glasgow etc) rerouted via Turnhouse to improve access to the rest of the country - and of course have a train the other way - into Waverley - every 5 minutes. IMHO a great idea, but it was cancelled.

 

Edit: I take it you mean the Aitport Express bus from Waverley Bridge?

There is another bus - the no. 35 - which more closely, but not exactly, follows the tram route but it takes a lot longer.

I get it that the tram and the 100 take different routes but many of those coming to/from the Airport would be going to City Centre locations anyway? 

 

I have no problem with the 200 or the 35 but it seems to me the main route is City Centre to Airport and thats where there is doubling.  The 35 doesn't go into Princes St though.

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Not quite, the airport bus goes on a slightly different route - along Corstorphine / St.John's / Glasgow Road.

 

There were confident predictions that the airport bus would be downgraded or even cancelled to 'force' people to use the tram but instead the bus service goes from strength to strength. Indeed a new express route to the airport has started, via the north if the city, from Ocean Terminal. I suppose this gives people a choice.

 

Many also question the time the tram takes from the city centre to the airport. The tram was never meant to be the 'fast' way - that was going to be EARL, the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. The plan was to have most of the rail lines to the north and west of the city (to Fife, Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Stirling & Glasgow etc) rerouted via Turnhouse to improve access to the rest of the country - and of course have a train the other way - into Waverley - every 5 minutes. IMHO a great idea, but it was cancelled.

 

Edit: I take it you mean the Aitport Express bus from Waverley Bridge?

There is another bus - the no. 35 - which more closely, but not exactly, follows the tram route but it takes a lot longer.

Spent several days on the No.35 getting to the airport once. Wouldn't recommend it

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I get it that the tram and the 100 take different routes but many of those coming to/from the Airport would be going to City Centre locations anyway?

 

I have no problem with the 200 or the 35 but it seems to me the main route is City Centre to Airport and thats where there is doubling. The 35 doesn't go into Princes St though.

Wrong.

 

There are two major hotels in the 100 route plus countless B&Bs. It also intersects with Glasgow Road roundabout linking to another hotel in Clermiston.

 

The Tram doesn't serve the Corstorphine area or the entire North West of the city. That is why I refuse to use it.

Edited by frankblack
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This extension is an absolute con. The council own a lot of land down the waterfront way. The only way they can sell it on at a higher value is if they get the line in there.

 

Any extension should goto hospital first.

 

It's not really an extension though, it's just putting in more of the line originally planned with the pre-works already completed.

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This extension is an absolute con. The council own a lot of land down the waterfront way. The only way they can sell it on at a higher value is if they get the line in there.

Any extension should goto hospital first.

But surely if it means the council can sell the land for a higher price that's a good thing?

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deesidejambo

Wrong.

 

There are two major hotels in the 100 route plus countless B&Bs. It also intersects with Glasgow Road roundabout linking to another hotel in Clermiston.

 

The Tram doesn't serve the Corstorphine area or the entire North West of the city. That is why I refuse to use it.

I have been in the 100 many times and the majority of folk coming from the Airport are heading into Haymarket or Waverley. For those people the 100 and the Tram are almost the same. That is where there is duplication.

 

I'm not saying the 100 should be binned altogether but scaling it back or changing its route may make sense.

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The Real Maroonblood

Spent several days on the No.35 getting to the airport once. Wouldn't recommend it

If you're coming from the city centre or Leith I agree.

Staying in the west of Edinburgh it's great.

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Wrong.

 

There are two major hotels in the 100 route plus countless B&Bs. It also intersects with Glasgow Road roundabout linking to another hotel in Clermiston.

 

The Tram doesn't serve the Corstorphine area or the entire North West of the city. That is why I refuse to use it.

That'll show them lol

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That'll show them lol

 

I think the fact they still need subsidising says it all.  Passenger numbers have flattened out below expectations.

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I have been in the 100 many times and the majority of folk coming from the Airport are heading into Haymarket or Waverley. For those people the 100 and the Tram are almost the same. That is where there is duplication.

 

I'm not saying the 100 should be binned altogether but scaling it back or changing its route may make sense.

 

I would have thought the 100 was faster and more direct for them?  Lose the tram and keep the 100 and see how much money can be saved.

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3fingersreid

But surely if it means the council can sell the land for a higher price that's a good thing?

Problem with that is that when the land is sold to a developer for housing ,they'll just add thousands onto the already unaffordable prices that housing costs in Edinburgh. Keep the land and build council owned housing that families can afford to rent , and for once if they have to extend the line ,do it for the people of Edinburgh and take it to the RIE

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I think the fact they still need subsidising says it all. Passenger numbers have flattened out below expectations.

I think a decision to continue with expansion will say much more.

 

You should try it sometime. The passenger experience is fantastic.

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I think the fact they still need subsidising says it all. Passenger numbers have flattened out below expectations.

Have they - got a link?

 

Edit: Because when I searched I could only find stuff like this ...

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/edinburgh-trams-continuing-to-perform-ahead-of-expectations-1-4346269

 

....and in the EEN of all things.

Edited by FWJ
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It all depends what their expectations for the trams were in the first place. It is easy tot say we are beating expectations if those expectations were set horrendously low.

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Seymour M Hersh

I can't understand why the Airport Bus still runs along almost the same route as the trams.

 

Are they not just duplicate services?

 

It's for people who want to get into town quickly. 

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Seymour M Hersh

I think a decision to continue with expansion will say much more.

 

You should try it sometime. The passenger experience is fantastic.

 

I'm sorry but exactly how is it fantastic? Do you get a neck and head massage or something?

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Montgomery Brewster

I think a decision to continue with expansion will say much more.

 

You should try it sometime. The passenger experience is fantastic.

Possibly on a quiet sleepy after or pre rush hour. On it now and it's like a fire at a zoo. Not a good experience !

 

Ram packed

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Possibly on a quiet sleepy after or pre rush hour. On it now and it's like a fire at a zoo. Not a good experience !

Ram packed

Tram busy you say? Surely not!

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Went back to the start of the thread and read all the confident assertions that they'd never run, never even make an operational profit, people would hate them and they'd never be used, would need to take a bus from the tram stop to the airport terminal, that the airport buses and others would be pulled to give the trams a face-saving monopoly, that there would be daily riots as people were approached by conductors asking for their tickets, that Edinburgh's reputation would be trashed and tourists would flee.

 

Smiled.

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In other news: A 35 to the airport has broken down on Slateford Road. Been there for about half an hour, big hold-ups

 

I heard from a mate that it's a ploy by the council to make the trams look better.

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I'm sorry but exactly how is it fantastic? Do you get a neck and head massage or something?

No. But you don't get rattled about like a pea in a drum either.

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An extension seems sensible given the high investment in the current line. Going to Leith opens up a lot more passenger potential.

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