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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues


Ribble

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ArcticJambo

Never been on one of the trams.  :fonzie:

 

The advertising on them makes them look shite too.

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It's not going to recoop a billion pounds in 5/10/15/20 years. 

That's going to take a generation to recover. 

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Stuart Lyon

Absolute farce from the beginning and continuing with the absurd lengthening of the single line to Newhaven. Circa £150m peer mile based on capital cost of £225M plus i £136m interest on borrowing that amount! 

 

Where's Lord Hardie's report on this fiasco?

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Stuart Lyon

They claim passenger  numbers are up but elsewhere bus journeys are down so is it just a transfer of passengers from one mode of transport to the other?

 

 

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The Real Maroonblood
1 minute ago, Stuart Lyon said:

They claim passenger  numbers are up but elsewhere bus journeys are down so is it just a transfer of passengers from one mode of transport to the other?

 

 

Exactly. 

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I get the tram pretty much every day now. I have a Ridacard though. Not sure how it works cos I can't remember my card ever increasing significantly to accommodate tram usage.

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7 minutes ago, superjack said:

Surely as a public service a profit isn't a requirement? 

No, it's not.

 

But at the time when schools are (actually) falling to pieces, public toilets are being closed, leisure centres being shut down, the roads in a total mess and garbage collection a shambles, we should perhaps be spending money on actual vital services instead of spunking hundreds of millions on toy-town vanity tramlines.

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On 16/03/2019 at 14:33, Toggie88 said:

 

See - there numerous factors for this though.

 

The 10% increase in numbers could be for numerous reasons: Increased road congestion (people moving from cars/buses), increased population (Edinburgh's population continues to rise), increased home building on the route (numerous new homes have been added in vicinity) of the existing route, and Edinburgh Airport has itself seen over 10% rise year on year for the last few years - which alone could account for increase in tram users. 

 

90% Satisfaction isn't surprising when you consider that the other available options for public transport in Edinburgh consists solely of buses. Give someone a car after a life of riding on a horse and they'll be satisfied as well. 

 

Is it not good there's a tram line to help with the road congestion and serve the increased population, new homes and extra airport passengers?

 

There are trains available in Edinburgh, too, although not as many as there should be.

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23 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

Is it not good there's a tram line to help with the road congestion and serve the increased population, new homes and extra airport passengers?

 

There are trains available in Edinburgh, too, although not as many as there should be.

 

Oh, I think anything that adds to Edinburgh's public transport is a positive, even more if it's something which moves away from an over reliance on buses. 

 

I think the tram line is good, I think a larger network - with minimal interaction with current surface streets - would be great. Sticking them on already overly congested streets just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

The problem in Edinburgh is that roads are too small and there's too few routes. It's not an easily solvable problem unless you have billions to throw at a massive infrastructure project and even if you did, Edinburgh is the home nimbyism - anything remotely revolutionary will be opposed. 

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4 hours ago, Restonbabe said:

It's not going to recoop a billion pounds in 5/10/15/20 years. 

That's going to take a generation to recover. 

 

It isn't meant to recoup the capital cost, but it should be aiming for breakeven on operating costs.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...
On 10/09/2019 at 09:32, The Real Maroonblood said:

Has any of work started in Leith yet?

 

Work will start next month on the 15th. 

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The Real Maroonblood
2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Work will start next month on the 15th. 

Cheers.

Do you have any idea what that mess is at the top of Leith Walk?

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Seymour M Hersh
On 19/06/2019 at 12:18, Stuart Lyon said:

They claim passenger  numbers are up but elsewhere bus journeys are down so is it just a transfer of passengers from one mode of transport to the other?

 

 

 

I wonder how long it will be before Lothian Buses and the Trams are officially merged for accounting purposes. 

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Seymour M Hersh
3 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Work will start next month on the 15th. 

 

When did they formally sign off on this? 

Edited by Seymour M Hersh
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Seymour M Hersh
On 19/06/2019 at 13:16, superjack said:

Surely as a public service a profit isn't a requirement? 

 

Since they've borrowed so much to build the thing surely they should pay it back and not the tax payer. 

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1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Cheers.

Do you have any idea what that mess is at the top of Leith Walk?

 

No idea. Hopefully it'll all work when it's finished? Tram stop at Picardy Place, but what's going on with the road layout in the area is a mess. 

 

Ken Buchanan statue supposed to be going up in the vicinity. Excellent and not before time either. 

 

 

Edited by pablo
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18 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Since they've borrowed so much to build the thing surely they should pay it back and not the tax payer. 

 

Pay what back and to whom?

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14 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I wonder how long it will be before Lothian Buses and the Trams are officially merged for accounting purposes. 

Mid, East and West Lothian Councils own small percentages of Lothian Buses. I wonder if they'd be happy to take on a share of the tram debt?

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1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Cheers.

Do you have any idea what that mess is at the top of Leith Walk?

 

Traffic flow is going to be terrible when it's complete!

 

Coming from Elm row 2 lanes split into 3, left lane for Leith Street, Central lane for York Place, Right lane for Broughton Street/Turning back to Picardy place

From Leith street 2 lanes split into 3, right for Picardy place to Elm Row, centre for Broughton Street and left for York Place, all traffic required to cross new tram lines and the inevitable delays

From york place, constant 2 lanes left for Elm row, right for leith street, also crossing tram lines

 

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1 hour ago, Lemongrab said:

Mid, East and West Lothian Councils own small percentages of Lothian Buses. I wonder if they'd be happy to take on a share of the tram debt?

Not while us Midlothian crusties don’t get free travel on the trams. 🧐

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6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Not while us Midlothian crusties don’t get free travel on the trams. 🧐

Ditto for West Lothian oldies.

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45 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Traffic flow is going to be terrible when it's complete!

 

Coming from Elm row 2 lanes split into 3, left lane for Leith Street, Central lane for York Place, Right lane for Broughton Street/Turning back to Picardy place

From Leith street 2 lanes split into 3, right for Picardy place to Elm Row, centre for Broughton Street and left for York Place, all traffic required to cross new tram lines and the inevitable delays

From york place, constant 2 lanes left for Elm row, right for leith street, also crossing tram lines

 

 

Nuts. Be as well getting the tram :D

 

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No parking on Leith Walk meaning the surrounding side streets (Iona Street, Albert Street etc.) are going to be even worse for parking. Already struggle to get a space most nights.

 

Traffic diverted down Bonnington Road and Easter Road, again already extremely busy. 

 

Going to be a fun few years.

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dobmisterdobster
On 19/06/2019 at 13:16, superjack said:

Surely as a public service a profit isn't a requirement? 

Public transport does not make a profit.

Scotrail loses money but its a valuable service for people, businesses and the economy. So it gets subsidised.

I understand people are concerned about the debt from construction loans but expecting the trams to operate profitably is very silly.

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The Real Maroonblood
4 hours ago, pablo said:

 

No idea. Hopefully it'll all work when it's finished? Tram stop at Picardy Place, but what's going on with the road layout in the area is a mess. 

 

Ken Buchanan statue supposed to be going up in the vicinity. Excellent and not before time either. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Traffic flow is going to be terrible when it's complete!

 

Coming from Elm row 2 lanes split into 3, left lane for Leith Street, Central lane for York Place, Right lane for Broughton Street/Turning back to Picardy place

From Leith street 2 lanes split into 3, right for Picardy place to Elm Row, centre for Broughton Street and left for York Place, all traffic required to cross new tram lines and the inevitable delays

From york place, constant 2 lanes left for Elm row, right for leith street, also crossing tram lines

 

 

1 hour ago, Cade said:

 

Untitled.jpg

Thanks for the update. 

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1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Public transport does not make a profit.

Scotrail loses money but its a valuable service for people, businesses and the economy. So it gets subsidised.

I understand people are concerned about the debt from construction loans but expecting the trams to operate profitably is very silly.

 

Fair points 

 

They expect to make a surplus once Leith route is going 

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Seymour M Hersh
5 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

Pay what back and to whom?

 

Interest on the loans and of course the loans themselves to the banks they borrowed from woud be a wild guess. 

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2 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Public transport does not make a profit.

Scotrail loses money but its a valuable service for people, businesses and the economy. So it gets subsidised.

I understand people are concerned about the debt from construction loans but expecting the trams to operate profitably is very silly.

I'm pretty sure Lothian Buses make a profit. 

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2 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Public transport does not make a profit.

Scotrail loses money but its a valuable service for people, businesses and the economy. So it gets subsidised.

I understand people are concerned about the debt from construction loans but expecting the trams to operate profitably is very silly.

Lothian Busses make a huge profit. Hence them spraying money on their tour coaches. 

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1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Interest on the loans and of course the loans themselves to the banks they borrowed from woud be a wild guess. 

 

They are doing that :thumbsup:

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8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Hence no profit. 

 

I can't think of any public transport providers in Scotland that make a profit when you take subsidy into account.

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The Real Maroonblood
1 minute ago, Dunks said:

 

I can't think of any public transport providers in Scotland that make a profit when you take subsidy into account.

I’m sure LB make a profit and only a handful of their routes are subsidised.

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Aye.

There’s been a few wild guesses on this thread - trams not running to the airport - having to get a shuttle bus to the terminal, trams not running at all, the 100 being withdrawn to force people to use the trams, breakdowns left, right and centre causing traffic chaos, riots as people are stung for £1000 fines, businesses deserting the city - tourists deserting it too (how’s that working out?) tramline being abandoned because no-one is using it.

 

The trams are working great, doing what they were meant to do and proving very popular.

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Nicholas Brody
4 hours ago, Ritchez said:

No parking on Leith Walk meaning the surrounding side streets (Iona Street, Albert Street etc.) are going to be even worse for parking. Already struggle to get a space most nights.

 

Traffic diverted down Bonnington Road and Easter Road, again already extremely busy. 

 

Going to be a fun few years.

 

Yeah but they're resurfacing Easter road so it's all good. That will definitely ease the fact that an already congested road is getting even more traffic on it.

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1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I’m sure LB make a profit and only a handful of their routes are subsidised.

 

They do make an operating profit, but they also receive subsidy for a lot of routes as well as tax breaks.

 

Quite a few routes are commercial at peak times only and subsidised the rest of the day.

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The Real Maroonblood
23 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

They do make an operating profit, but they also receive subsidy for a lot of routes as well as tax breaks.

 

Quite a few routes are commercial at peak times only and subsidised the rest of the day.

Could you give details of which routes receive subsidies?

Any information on your second sentence would also be appreciated.

 

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I'd happily have public transport run at a loss. It's a service to the public, it's exactly where tax money should be going, but in the modern age profit is everything and making a loss often seems to be seen as morally wrong no matter what the context is. 

Edited by Smithee
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The Real Maroonblood
45 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'd happily have public transport run at a loss. It's a service to the public, it's exactly where tax money should be going, but in the modern age profit is everything and making a loss often seems to be seen as morally wrong no matter what the context is. 

Good point.

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Howdy Doody Jambo

Wonder what the carbon footprint figures are to construct the second half of the route to Newhaven and how many new forests the clowncil will need to plant to compensate 

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Francis Albert
14 hours ago, Smithee said:

I'd happily have public transport run at a loss. It's a service to the public, it's exactly where tax money should be going, but in the modern age profit is everything and making a loss often seems to be seen as morally wrong no matter what the context is. 

Agreed. Public transport is heavily subsidised in most of the world … even in bastions of capitalism like the USA and Singapore, and for good reason. Life in both cities and countryside would be impossible for many without affordable public transport.

No-one (or at least very few) argue that the health service, education, the armed forces etc should be profitable,

One thing I would say is that free transport for everyone over a certain age (from which I benefit)  seems a needless extravagance.

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15 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Could you give details of which routes receive subsidies?

Any information on your second sentence would also be appreciated.

 

 

I'll have a wee look later if I get the chance - mostly spread across various council reports as subsidised routes go out to tender. I seem to recall seeing route 19 as commercial during peak times and run by Lothian with the off peak run by First as lowest tender. That was a while back. Once First withdrew, Lothian got it for £150k pa - almost double the First subsidy.

 

FWIW I agree with subsidised public transport and note that some cities provide free transport in their city centres. They justify this through the reduction in traffic/congestion/climate impact.

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18 hours ago, FWJ said:

Aye.

There’s been a few wild guesses on this thread - trams not running to the airport - having to get a shuttle bus to the terminal, trams not running at all, the 100 being withdrawn to force people to use the trams, breakdowns left, right and centre causing traffic chaos, riots as people are stung for £1000 fines, businesses deserting the city - tourists deserting it too (how’s that working out?) tramline being abandoned because no-one is using it.

 

The trams are working great, doing what they were meant to do and proving very popular.

The airport one was the funniest to be fair. 

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