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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues


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1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

 

Once that's done - wonder if stretching it to Portobello is next... or through London Road to Meadowbank.

 

See my posts a couple of pages back. :thumbsup:

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9 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Once that's done - wonder if stretching it to Portobello is next... or through London Road to Meadowbank.

 

No, it won't be next. If the York Place to Newhaven stretch is delivered on time and on budget then the next two lines will be continuing from Newhaven to the Granton spur and then a line south to Little France.

 

It would be decades from now, and the network would have to be turning a significant profit before you could consider running branch lines through already fully developed areas to the East or the West. Granted, it would be nice though.

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Harry Potter

Extra monies for the trams when we have 7 day parking charges across the city.

Thats my car park snookered for Hearts games.

This lot have no money but still talking about doing this extension , madness.

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davemclaren
1 hour ago, Harry Potter said:

Extra monies for the trams when we have 7 day parking charges across the city.

Thats my car park snookered for Hearts games.

This lot have no money but still talking about doing this extension , madness.

Get a bus. 

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The Real Maroonblood
20 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Still got another year and 2 months for my phree pass.

 

That year will fly in.

Trust me.

Dave will confirm.

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Harry Potter
Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

That year will fly in.

Trust me.

Dave will confirm.

Ha Ha, i quite believe it.

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The Real Maroonblood
1 minute ago, Harry Potter said:

Ha Ha, i quite believe it.

Anyway I agree with your post about the trams.

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3 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Extra monies for the trams when we have 7 day parking charges across the city.

Thats my car park snookered for Hearts games.

This lot have no money but still talking about doing this extension , madness.

 

Get a tram :D

 

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davemclaren
4 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Still got another year and 2 months for my phree pass.

 

It costs you money to take the car as well you know. Fuel, wear and tear and then there’s the environment. ?

 

Free bus pass is great by the way. ?

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Harry Potter
27 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

It costs you money to take the car as well you know. Fuel, wear and tear and then there’s the environment. ?

 

Free bus pass is great by the way. ?

Theres also that wee chance of a trip to the pub for a pint. 

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davemclaren
7 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Theres also that wee chance of a trip to the pub for a pint. 

That has become more regular as less reason to take the car to the game. ?

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I'm generally all in favour of better transport, especially public transport which takes away congestion. 

 

My concern with the extension of the line to Leith is that I'm not sure it will decrease congestion. Admittedly, I'm no expert and I've not read the full business case but almost the entirety of the extension is on current streets (Leith Walk primarily) which complicates current transport (private and public) on the area served with a knock-on impact on journey times for those not only interacting directly with trams/the line but those in wider area. 

 

As highlighted before, the cost per km of track is something like 20 times that of other European cities also building tram lines. You can understand maybe 2/3 times as much, but 20 times just seems beyond reasonable when for the moment, we're in the same single market. The explanation I've commonly heard for the huge costs however is the having to move utility services which involves effectively digging up the entire surface streets. 

 

This leads to me to the question, if we're having to dig up entire streets anyway, why has the idea of a simple cut-and-cover system not been looked at? This would effectively turn the tram into 'metro', which have a far higher impact on improving journey times, economic activity and reduce congestion hugely by removing a huge chunk of people from surface streets. I believe the environmental impact is also significantly better. 
 

I guess my argument is that the relative cost-reward/value for money discussion about different alternatives hasn't happened at all. It's always been limited to an extension to Leith on the previous plans. Even the original plan for a loop round north Edinburgh (which used old rail lines) hasn't been mentioned - which surely would have taken the average cost per km down. I've no problem if the business case for any of these just isn't there but they haven't been discussed (at least in the last decade).  

 

If we are to spend a huge amount of money and once again cause a huge amount of disruption for residents, businesses and those who interact with the area in anyway, should we not be looking for something transformative and not just a small addition to our public transport network?

 

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davemclaren
3 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

I'm generally all in favour of better transport, especially public transport which takes away congestion. 

 

My concern with the extension of the line to Leith is that I'm not sure it will decrease congestion. Admittedly, I'm no expert and I've not read the full business case but almost the entirety of the extension is on current streets (Leith Walk primarily) which complicates current transport (private and public) on the area served with a knock-on impact on journey times for those not only interacting directly with trams/the line but those in wider area. 

 

As highlighted before, the cost per km of track is something like 20 times that of other European cities also building tram lines. You can understand maybe 2/3 times as much, but 20 times just seems beyond reasonable when for the moment, we're in the same single market. The explanation I've commonly heard for the huge costs however is the having to move utility services which involves effectively digging up the entire surface streets. 

 

This leads to me to the question, if we're having to dig up entire streets anyway, why has the idea of a simple cut-and-cover system not been looked at? This would effectively turn the tram into 'metro', which have a far higher impact on improving journey times, economic activity and reduce congestion hugely by removing a huge chunk of people from surface streets. I believe the environmental impact is also significantly better. 
 

I guess my argument is that the relative cost-reward/value for money discussion about different alternatives hasn't happened at all. It's always been limited to an extension to Leith on the previous plans. Even the original plan for a loop round north Edinburgh (which used old rail lines) hasn't been mentioned - which surely would have taken the average cost per km down. I've no problem if the business case for any of these just isn't there but they haven't been discussed (at least in the last decade).  

 

If we are to spend a huge amount of money and once again cause a huge amount of disruption for residents, businesses and those who interact with the area in anyway, should we not be looking for something transformative and not just a small addition to our public transport network?

 

they’re struggling to justify the surface tram far less add in the cost of cut and cover. 

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1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

they’re struggling to justify the surface tram far less add in the cost of cut and cover. 

 

I understand that but my point is, if the major costs of cut and cover (rerouting utility works) has to take place with a surface tram anyway, then why not look at doing it? 

 

If we're taking this scheme as proposed as the starting point, then the additional benefits could surely outweigh the additional costs - making the whole project more justifiable. 

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davemclaren
17 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I understand that but my point is, if the major costs of cut and cover (rerouting utility works) has to take place with a surface tram anyway, then why not look at doing it? 

 

If we're taking this scheme as proposed as the starting point, then the additional benefits could surely outweigh the additional costs - making the whole project more justifiable. 

Part of the aim is to take cars of the road si surface trams with their traffic  ‘privileges’ suit that more I reckon. 

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18 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Part of the aim is to take cars of the road si surface trams with their traffic  ‘privileges’ suit that more I reckon. 

 

I'd argue that's a fundamental flaw in their logic then. By adding surface trams with their traffic privileges it's only achieving it's aim by creating more congestion (cars are held up by tram > people less likely to drive). Doesn't make sense to me. 

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And there we have it.

 

The Trams to Newhaven Project has been passed by 36 votes to 26 votes and WILL go ahead.

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davemclaren
9 minutes ago, Dunks said:

And there we have it.

 

The Trams to Newhaven Project has been passed by 36 votes to 26 votes and WILL go ahead.

That’s democracy for you. 

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28 minutes ago, Dunks said:

And there we have it.

 

The Trams to Newhaven Project has been passed by 36 votes to 26 votes and WILL go ahead.

 

?

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Poor folks who live an work on Leith Walk there have suffered for years when the initial project started. Now more years of pain as we spunk monies we don’t have whilst shredding services right left and centre. 

Edited by Dannie Boy
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Toxteth O'Grady

Nightmare, I work in Leith and live in the west of Edinburgh - No doubt my journey will be a nightmare due to the disruption caused by this nonsense.

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16 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Nightmare, I work in Leith and live in the west of Edinburgh - No doubt my journey will be a nightmare due to the disruption caused by this nonsense.

 

 

But will be a doddle when the tram is finished, they are doing it for you :lol: 

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Toxteth O'Grady
Just now, cheetah said:

 

 

But will be a doddle when the tram is finished, they are doing it for you :lol: 

No it doesn't go within a  mile of my house, i've never been on one

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Sexton Hardcastle

They’ve not long finished digging LW up t resurface it and now they will dig it all up again.

 

 

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Seems a bit strange that they're moving the stop from York Place to Picardy. Just assumed they would leave that and have a stop at Elm Row/Gayfield Square.

 

Also anyone know how the line is gonna run between Foot of the Walk and the shore? Constitution Street is too narrow I'd say and to send it round Junction Street and down Henderson Street would be madness.

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46 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Nightmare, I work in Leith and live in the west of Edinburgh - No doubt my journey will be a nightmare due to the disruption caused by this nonsense.

Be worth it when it's ready though, no? I live in Musselburgh but work in Sighthill. The trams make the 2nd leg of my journey quick and simple.

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scott herbertson
On 08/03/2019 at 14:47, davemclaren said:

It costs you money to take the car as well you know. Fuel, wear and tear and then there’s the environment. ?

 

Free bus pass is great by the way. ?

 

 

Cant use trams with them if you are for outside Edinburgh unfortetly. Still, the buses are great

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Toxteth O'Grady
19 minutes ago, Locky said:

Be worth it when it's ready though, no? I live in Musselburgh but work in Sighthill. The trams make the 2nd leg of my journey quick and simple.

Nah, i cant see me using it. I can get a 35 bus door to door or take the car if im in a hurry

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47 minutes ago, Locky said:

Seems a bit strange that they're moving the stop from York Place to Picardy. Just assumed they would leave that and have a stop at Elm Row/Gayfield Square.

 

Also anyone know how the line is gonna run between Foot of the Walk and the shore? Constitution Street is too narrow I'd say and to send it round Junction Street and down Henderson Street would be madness.

York Place was always going to be temporary (assuming the extension got the go ahead).

I suppose Picardy Place has got more ‘stuff’ nearby - the Omni, Playhouse, the other side of this huge St James project?

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Toxteth O'Grady
1 hour ago, Locky said:

Seems a bit strange that they're moving the stop from York Place to Picardy. Just assumed they would leave that and have a stop at Elm Row/Gayfield Square.

 

Also anyone know how the line is gonna run between Foot of the Walk and the shore? Constitution Street is too narrow I'd say and to send it round Junction Street and down Henderson Street would be madness.

I think it is down Constitution street right down to the casino and then along to Ocean Terminal

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

They’ve not long finished digging LW up t resurface it and now they will dig it all up again.

 

 

What a surprise.

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1 hour ago, Locky said:

Seems a bit strange that they're moving the stop from York Place to Picardy. Just assumed they would leave that and have a stop at Elm Row/Gayfield Square.

 

Also anyone know how the line is gonna run between Foot of the Walk and the shore? Constitution Street is too narrow I'd say and to send it round Junction Street and down Henderson Street would be madness.

I think it is Constitution Street to Tower Street to The Shore and then Ocean Drive to OT.

Not 100% sure though.

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Howdy Doody Jambo

Makes you wonder how this clowncil gets voted in, oh well more community charge to pay and hidden taxes invented for Edinburgh residents,parking charges hike, bus fares will rocket, there will be shops going bust doon the walk while services will be cut , crumbling pavements and roads, while litter builds up, super, smashing, great 

Why couldn't the council wait for the result of the ongoing enquiry which has cost us millions? 

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will-i-am-a-jambo
2 hours ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Nightmare, I work in Leith and live in the west of Edinburgh - No doubt my journey will be a nightmare due to the disruption caused by this nonsense.

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

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Geoff the Mince
22 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

Pot holes ! 

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will-i-am-a-jambo
1 minute ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Pot holes ! 

 

Fair enough but they cause problems for every mode of transport on the road (apart from said trams!).

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52 minutes ago, Old Castle Rock said:

Makes you wonder how this clowncil gets voted in, oh well more community charge to pay and hidden taxes invented for Edinburgh residents,parking charges hike, bus fares will rocket, there will be shops going bust doon the walk while services will be cut , crumbling pavements and roads, while litter builds up, super, smashing, great 

Why couldn't the council wait for the result of the ongoing enquiry which has cost us millions? 

 

Sadly there are too many stupid people that cast council votes based on their uk or Scotland preferences.

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All roads lead to Gorgie
13 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

Fair enough but they cause problems for every mode of transport on the road (apart from said trams!).

I cycle a bit around the town but the pot holes are becoming a real hazard now. They are worse where the bus lanes are because the buses using them are too heavy for the quality of surface. Something needs done to make the surface more hard wearing especially the inside lanes used by buses. You get to know a few short cuts down side roads but many of them in the city centre are cobbled which is even worse. 

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Toxteth O'Grady
55 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

I used to cycle until a white van man ran into the back of me, knocked me off and I broke 2 ribs. Never been keen since then

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will-i-am-a-jambo
22 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

I used to cycle until a white van man ran into the back of me, knocked me off and I broke 2 ribs. Never been keen since then

 

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you made a quick recovery. I completely understand your reluctance to get back in the saddle. You must've received quite a shock. Sadly there are too many idiots on the roads and this is becoming a problem. The 20mph limits were put in place for exactly this reason (to make them safer) but l still see people driving at 30 and above. The amount of times l've been cut up by drivers and the lack of respect shown towards me 'just because l'm on a bike' is unbelievable. 

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will-i-am-a-jambo
37 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I cycle a bit around the town but the pot holes are becoming a real hazard now. They are worse where the bus lanes are because the buses using them are too heavy for the quality of surface. Something needs done to make the surface more hard wearing especially the inside lanes used by buses. You get to know a few short cuts down side roads but many of them in the city centre are cobbled which is even worse. 

 

I can understand that and completely agree with you. I'm quite fortunate in that most of my route to work is off-Road and on a designated cycle path. The potholes are a big problem in Edinburgh. This is a council issue but they don't seem to do anything about it. Ideally l'd like to see more designated and kerbed/separated cycle paths to encourage people to go by bicycle like what they do in Amsterdam. They have made a start in some places like near the Pleasance and some sections on Leith Walk. I know there are plans around Haymarket/Melville Street and George St as well but it's not enough. I appreciate that these things cost but they are a fraction of what it costs to build a new road.

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Toxteth O'Grady
13 minutes ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you made a quick recovery. I completely understand your reluctance to get back in the saddle. You must've received quite a shock. Sadly there are too many idiots on the roads and this is becoming a problem. The 20mph limits were put in place for exactly this reason (to make them safer) but l still see people driving at 30 and above. The amount of times l've been cut up by drivers and the lack of respect shown towards me 'just because l'm on a bike' is unbelievable. 

It was a good few years ago and I still cycle, just not on the roads much and certainly not across town in the rush hours.

 

As you say there are plenty of drivers that have no time for cyclists.

 

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1 hour ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

 

You could always cycle - you have a one-off payment for bike and accessories, no fuel costs, no bus fares, you get fit and healthy, you get fresh air in your lungs, you skip the traffic and your not polluting the environment with toxic, noxious fumes. Your work may even do a bike-to-work scheme and you don't pay the VAT on your new bike! What's not to love!

His workmates would think he was a weirdo if he cycled to work

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will-i-am-a-jambo
3 minutes ago, mutley said:

His workmates would think he was a weirdo if he cycled to work

 

Or a genius? Fine line between madness and ingenuity!

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