Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Chester™]

The last Lab-Lib government proposed EARL and GARL. Edinburgh and Glasgow Airport Rail Links. Both were cancelled by the SNP. EARL was a tad pointless as the trams were being built. GARL was more necessary.

 

Both were cancelled to help fund the toy train set were they not?

[JamboX2]

 

 

Both were cancelled to help fund the toy train set were they not?

 

Think both were cut for a lack of profitability more than that.

 

It was arguably the SNP reluctance to help sort the trams till the last minute that caused a lot more unnecessary delay. Their hands off approach was a bit ott to me. But its nearly done now.

[Matthew Le Tissier]

What i still dont get is if a tram breaks down which will happen. What happens?

Thier are no passing points well none that ive seen.

Edited September 18, 2013 by southampton jambo

[Chester™]

Their hands off approach was a bit ott to me.

 

That was to prove a point TBH. Though they are of lesser 'blame' than the others, they should have been a bit more proactive in their response.

[Chester™]

What i still dont get is if a tram breaks down which will happen. What happens?

Thier are no passing points well none that ive seen.

 

A big Giant hand comes from the sky and lifts one tram over another.

[JamboX2]

 

 

That was to prove a point TBH. Though they are of lesser 'blame' than the others, they should have been a bit more proactive in their response.

 

Totally agree. However, Edinburgh, Council and people, suffered due to their reluctance. Its why they quickly went quiet on the enquiry into the fiasco.

 

Still think its beneficial to have one. Takes busses off the street. Opens up ideas of better congestion control and if expanded north and south would be another alternative to the car.

 

You could move bus routes to otger less served areas off it too and broaden public transport options. Awful period of construction but sooner its going the sooner we can plan to add to it in tge next 10 years.

[FWJ]

I hope the trams will be a success (I certainly supported their construction) but my fear is that people will be so determined to hate them any little flaw or problem will become A Big Thing.

 

Putting on my tin-foil hat... Also a bit tired of all the 'let's laugh at Edinburgh' from the weegia. How much over-budget was the M74 extension in the end? How much is a two week sporting event - that will sell fewer tickets than The Fringe does every year - costing and how is their own (?)?290m refurb of their subway line coming along?

[husref musemic]

FWJ - The 5 mile M74 extension cost ?690m !

[Greenbank2]

M74 extension versus Trams

 

Original budget used in business case: M74 ?177M - Trams ?375M

Initial Contract Award: M74 ?445M - Trams ???

Total Final Cost: M74 ?692M - Trams ?776M

 

The M74 extension at ?138M per mile and 390% over budget is the most expensive road per mile ever built in the UK

Trams ?89M per mile and 206% over budget.

 

where is your commentary on this Weegia?

[Coco]

The more important figure today is that the Council are to take ?7.5m out of the education budget to help pay for the yearly ongoing finance cost and operating loss of the half tram line.

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/education/school-jobs-axe-as-council-cuts-7-5m-from-budget-1-3098986

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Every tram is to be tested 250 times prior to being open to the public, so are these just going to be flying around Edinburgh empty for a few months?

[Coco]

Every tram is to be tested 250 times prior to being open to the public, so are these just going to be flying around Edinburgh empty for a few months?

 

They are going to be trying out the cow catchers on the drunks at the West End.

[JamboX2]

M74 extension versus Trams

 

Original budget used in business case: M74 ?177M - Trams ?375M

Initial Contract Award: M74 ?445M - Trams ???

Total Final Cost: M74 ?692M - Trams ?776M

 

The M74 extension at ?138M per mile and 390% over budget is the most expensive road per mile ever built in the UK

Trams ?89M per mile and 206% over budget.

 

where is your commentary on this Weegia?

 

Wow. That road was a bit of arse up as well then.

[reaths17]

M74 extension versus Trams

 

Original budget used in business case: M74 ?177M - Trams ?375M

Initial Contract Award: M74 ?445M - Trams ???

Total Final Cost: M74 ?692M - Trams ?776M

 

The M74 extension at ?138M per mile and 390% over budget is the most expensive road per mile ever built in the UK

Trams ?89M per mile and 206% over budget.

 

 

 

the tram will go from the east end to the airport which means unless you stay in the center of town and work on it's route or are going to the airport the only reason for getting on is for a whooha to say you've been and done it. i would imagine that novelty will wear off quick. tourists wont use it much, their generally walking about west end to east end taking pics and all that touristy stuff.

 

 

i cant for the life of me, see me ever using it, i dont stay/work on the route, if i need to go into town i generally get a bus to the west end and walk anywhere else even if i'm going straight to the east end. i'm f****d if i'm humphing luggage outta my way to the town to get to the airport, the majority of city residents must be in similar circumstances.

 

so how much do they seriously expect to earn off this?

[Optimus Prime]

Some people really think that a project which is 3 years late, massively over-budget, is the most expensive single line rail system in the world (make that half a line), has resulted in hundreds of small traders going bust and which has brought misery to Edinburgh residents for 6 years is a good idea?

 

It'll be scrapped in 5 years.

 

No it won't.

 

I think the opposite is true. 5 years time and debate over extending to Leith and that loop to Roseburn or South over the North Bridge may be happening.

 

Dublin has been the model to look to and after great success that's been expanded. Still think it should've been completed to Leith. Afterall it was contractual not technical fault at the projects heart. Had they not ersed up contracting the project we'd have the full airport to Leith route right now.

 

This man gets it. Funnily enough the vast majority of Dubliners hated the project during construction, now they want more.

 

The more important figure today is that the Council are to take ?7.5m out of the education budget to help pay for the yearly ongoing finance cost and operating loss of the half tram line.

 

http://www.edinburgh...udget-1-3098986

 

....aye everything's the trams fault. I suppose the root cause of the global financial meltdown and the conflict in Syria was the trams as well eh Coco.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Optimus Prime

[Ribble]

Also just seen that it will take 8 mins more for the tram to take you to the ingliston park and ride than it takes to get the airport bus all the way to the airport for ?1.50 less!

[Nookie Bear]

the tram will go from the east end to the airport which means unless you stay in the center of town and work on it's route or are going to the airport the only reason for getting on is for a whooha to say you've been and done it. i would imagine that novelty will wear off quick. tourists wont use it much, their generally walking about west end to east end taking pics and all that touristy stuff.

 

 

i cant for the life of me, see me ever using it, i dont stay/work on the route, if i need to go into town i generally get a bus to the west end and walk anywhere else even if i'm going straight to the east end. i'm f****d if i'm humphing luggage outta my way to the town to get to the airport, the majority of city residents must be in similar circumstances.

 

so how much do they seriously expect to earn off this?

 

Apparently it is going to be very good for business although I have never actually heard anything to back this up.

[Coco]

No it won't.

 

 

 

This man gets it. Funnily enough the vast majority of Dubliners hated the project during construction, now they want more.

 

 

 

....aye everything's the trams fault. I suppose the root cause of the global financial meltdown and the conflict in Syria was the trams as well eh Coco.

 

It is very simple. Extra budget expense from the half tram line finance needs to be met from somewhere. So the Council is cutting education spending to pay for it.

[Cade]

Slower than the Airport bus. More expensive than the Airport bus. Aye, well worth ?1.2billion.

[JamboX2]

 

 

It is very simple. Extra budget expense from the half tram line finance needs to be met from somewhere. So the Council is cutting education spending to pay for it.

 

Most of those cuts are to do with the ?600m+ which is being pulled from under the feet of councils by Mr Swinney.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It is very simple. Extra budget expense from the half tram line finance needs to be met from somewhere. So the Council is cutting education spending to pay for it.

 

Tremendous. I'm sure we'd all support that.

[Coco]

Most of those cuts are to do with the ?600m+ which is being pulled from under the feet of councils by Mr Swinney.

 

Nope. This is pure discretionary spending on a lossmaking half tram line which is going to result in fewer classroom assistants and the like.

[Seymour M Hersh]

M74 extension versus Trams

 

Original budget used in business case: M74 ?177M - Trams ?375M

Initial Contract Award: M74 ?445M - Trams ???

Total Final Cost: M74 ?692M - Tram ?1.6bn

 

The M74 extension at ?138M per mile and 390% over budget is the most expensive road per mile ever built in the UK

Trams ?89M per mile and 206% over budget.

 

where is your commentary on this Weegia?

 

Ftfy

[rossthejambo]

 

Slower than the Airport bus. More expensive than the Airport bus. Aye, well worth ?1.2billion.

 

If its the same price as the buses, it won't be more expensive than the airport bus.

[Chester™]

 

 

If its the same price as the buses, it won't be more expensive than the airport bus.

 

To get to the airport, it costs more than the dedicated airport bus. Its in the report I linked earlier.

[IMac]

To get to the airport, it costs more than the dedicated airport bus. Its in the report I linked earlier.

To get to the airport, it costs more than the dedicated airport bus. Its in the report I linked earlier.

reading between the lines would suggest that lothian buses are due to increase the airport bus price...

[Greenbank2]

Ftfy

Not trying to defend the Trams, but wasn't the budget capped at ?776M? This is the figures I see quoted. Now I know that this doesn't include the cost of finance, but I guess is the number that should be used when comparing capital projects?

[Shanks said no]

Sorry but are some on here seriously claiming that the tram will cost more and take longer from the airport than a bus? If that is correct can someone explain why I would change from the excellent LRT bus service I often use from the Ingliston Park and Ride, which takes me quickly along the Glasgow Road to Haymarket to a slower and more expensive tram going past Broomhouse? Genuine question - why?

[rossthejambo]

 

 

 

To get to the airport, it costs more than the dedicated airport bus. Its in the report I linked earlier.

 

Ah I didn't actually read the link i just heard on the radio the prices were the same. Obviously didn't mention about the airport price.

 

I'd be very surprised if that stayed that way though, the airport bus will probably go up in price.

[Dunks]

The M74 extension at ?138M per mile and 390% over budget is the most expensive road per mile ever built in the UK

 

Second most expensive

[Dunks]

How much over-budget was the M74 extension in the end?

 

Ahead of time and under budget. As was the M80/M73 improvement

[Paolo]

I see the return cost to the airport is ?7.50, or ?4.00 for children.

 

That is ?1.50 more than the airport bus, or ?1.00 for children. It does not take you as close, and will take longer to get there.

 

I think I will stick to the bus if I am ever going to the airport.

 

OOPS - A bit slow, already discussed, I see.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Simon Says

[Paolo]

reading between the lines would suggest that lothian buses are due to increase the airport bus price...

It is not how I read it, but you could be right.

[Paolo]

Sorry but are some on here seriously claiming that the tram will cost more and take longer from the airport than a bus? If that is correct can someone explain why I would change from the excellent LRT bus service I often use from the Ingliston Park and Ride, which takes me quickly along the Glasgow Road to Haymarket to a slower and more expensive tram going past Broomhouse? Genuine question - why?

 

It is more than a claim, unless the bus slows down and increases its price. What is also the case, is the bus takes you right to the door of the terminal. The tram will not.

[dobmisterdobster]

Scotrail only gets a subsidy to cater for lines to rural areas that are not profitable but politically sensitive. That is completely different from a non-viable tram system which will do half a line, is over budget and won't make a profit for more than 15 years.

 

If Scotrail didn't get a subsidy it would only operate the profitable lines.

 

That would involve closing every line in Scotland except for the Edinburgh-Glasgow mainline.

It's not just rural services that lose money. Not enough people use these other lines.

There is also the issue of paying for new rolling stock, wheelchair-accessible ramps, improved wages etc

 

The trams operating at a loss is not a reason to scrap them.

Edited September 19, 2013 by dobmisterdobster

[JamboX2]

 

 

That would involve closing every line in Scotland except for the Edinburgh-Glasgow mainline.

It's not just rural services that lose money. Not enough people use these other lines.

There is also the issue of paying for new rolling stock, wheelchair-accessible ramps, improved wages etc

 

The trams operating at a loss is not a reason to scrap them.

 

However, we pay more on subsidy to private operators than we would if it were nationally owned. East Cost rail has been cheaper to run and more profitable since returned to public ownership. Its why the Scottish government shouldnt renew the franchise and just let it run under government control.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Not trying to defend the Trams, but wasn't the budget capped at ?776M? This is the figures I see quoted. Now I know that this doesn't include the cost of finance, but I guess is the number that should be used when comparing capital projects?

 

Got told by the CEO of one of the big credit rating firms that the cost will be ?1.6 Billion. Hidden in other budgets to conceal the true cost. Now I'm not sure if he was adding in the cost to all the small business's that went tits up due to the construction or if that's separate.

[Coco]

Anyone know how many trams we've bought?

 

How many trams can half a line have on at the one time before it reaches capacity?

 

Surely we've not bought more than eight (4 on duty each way at any given time)?

 

Maybe one or two spares in case of breakdowns as well?

 

They have bought 27 trams at a cost of ?2m each. So roughly 18 or just under ?40m not required (about 20% of Edinburgh's Council tax revenue wasted). The idea was to try to create another sunk cost to force through the rest of the half line to Leith and the other spur - so that the consultants and contractors could have another go at the dripping roast. After it became clear that there was not even the money for the half line this was junked. Attempts to sell or lease the 'spare' trams were made but because Edinburgh has bought bespoke road trains (the biggest and heaviest anywhere) there is no demand. Edinburgh's road trains have needed a depth of concrete measured in feet along the line and nobody else was stupid enough to do this. Therefore extra drivers have had to be recruited years before the trams run on the half line as the trams are so heavy if left in the garage the wheels go square.

[Seymour M Hersh]

reading between the lines would suggest that lothian buses are due to increase the airport bus price...

 

I would expect the council to reduce the 100 service significantly once the toy train is running to "encourage" folk to use it.

[Poseidon]

Anyone know how many trams we've bought?

 

How many trams can half a line have on at the one time before it reaches capacity?

 

Surely we've not bought more than eight (4 on duty each way at any given time)?

 

Maybe one or two spares in case of breakdowns as well?

Dozens..... edit. 27 as confirmed above

Edited September 19, 2013 by Allez Rossoneri

[Poseidon]

I would expect the council to reduce the 100 service significantly once the toy train is running to "encourage" folk to use it.

This

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

What i still dont get is if a tram breaks down which will happen. What happens?

Thier are no passing points well none that ive seen.

Passed the Inland Revenue offices at Haymarket the other day and noticed a short loop there. Maybe that's just for an extra tram to wait on Rugby days or something though. Not sure on the rest of the route though. Also thought there would be a drivers cab at each end so why the turning circle at York Place?

[Jam Tarts 1874]

It is more than a claim, unless the bus slows down and increases its price. What is also the case, is the bus takes you right to the door of the terminal. The tram will not.

 

Edinburgh Airport is about to have some redevelopment work that will expand the terminal building to take it up to the tram stop.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Nope. This is pure discretionary spending on a lossmaking half tram line which is going to result in fewer classroom assistants and the like.

 

Do said council tax revenues and slending from take into account the fact that council tax revenue has remained static due to the freeze? Had it raised with wages and inflation in line with other taxes surely it'd be near offset?

[Boris]

Got told by the CEO of one of the big credit rating firms that the cost will be ?1.6 Billion. Hidden in other budgets to conceal the true cost. Now I'm not sure if he was adding in the cost to all the small business's that went tits up due to the construction or if that's separate.

 

Same credit rating agencies that confirmed lots of countries AAA rating before they went bust? Or the same credit rating agencies who essentially take bribes to say that so and so (a business or a country) are "good"?

 

Credit rating agencies seem less than "truthful" IMO.

 

Which isn't to say that the trams haven't cost ?1.6bn, however I guess it's how much one trusts a source.

[Socrates]

Do said council tax revenues and slending from take into account the fact that council tax revenue has remained static due to the freeze? Had it raised with wages and inflation in line with other taxes surely it'd be near offset?

Surely, rather than increasing taxes at a time when most people haven't had a pay rise for years, we'd be better off not spunking money on a train set. Then we wouldn't have to cut education spending.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Socrates

[Ribble]

Edinburgh Airport is about to have some redevelopment work that will expand the terminal building to take it up to the tram stop.

 

Taking the mountain to mohammed sounds like an excellent solution!

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

Taking the mountain to mohammed sounds like an excellent solution!

Maybe they should have moved the ocean terminal up to York place and claimed the whole route complete.

[Coco]

Do said council tax revenues and slending from take into account the fact that council tax revenue has remained static due to the freeze? Had it raised with wages and inflation in line with other taxes surely it'd be near offset?

 

All this was known when the Council voted to continue the half line to St Andrew Square rather than scrapping it.

 

They decided to spend the money on half a tram line rather than on education.

[JamboX2]

 

Surely, rather than increasing taxes at a time when most people haven't had a pay rise for years, we'd be better off not spunking money on a train set. Then we wouldn't have to cut education spending.

 

Arguably yes. However, it seems infrastructure investment is more popular these days as a means of job creation.

 

It is also the case that the freeze usnt really benefiting the hardest pressed in society as by proportion of money in their pocket they pay more out on it as a rate and wealthier people are paying less as their houses (which are ripe for rerating) are doing better out of it. Also, due to inflation the services the poorer members of society rely on are being cut as central funding to plug the whole is cut.

 

Also this was started in a time of plenty.

Edited September 19, 2013 by JamboX2