Boab Posted April 29 Posted April 29 9 minutes ago, lost in space said: Boab, you have "lost it". Jackie Baillie pontificating?? You are saying a person with an honour shouldn't be commenting on serious problems - does that include Sir Keir Starmer? Does that include the King in Washington? Surely it depends more on what a person says and does - rather than their title! Your view on the monarchy and awards system is very reasonable. Many have your views. Fine. But your view that awarded persons should be treated less fairly is not balanced. Surely you must see that? To try to put this to bed, because I enjoy our debates, I just think it’s a contradiction accepting titles when you are supposed to represent a socialist party. Obviously, the LP are not that now and at a few points in the past they have had most peers in the House of Lords. I like my socialists anti-monarchy and all that goes with it. It’s archaic and have respect for anyone who refuses to accept titles. Said my piece, happy to move on.
kingantti1874 Posted April 29 Posted April 29 I occasionally read this thread and it’s frightening how misinformed and delusional some of you really are, it genuinely is one of the greatest brainwashing scams in history that so may of you have been convinced that the issues in your life are somehow the fault of Westminster and our friends and relatives south of the border. Scotlands economy (or what’s left of it after you’ve killed oil and gas, and your 2014 vote decimated our financial services) is 100% reliant on the UK. Do you really really think we will leave the UK flip a switch and be a prosperous EU nation? Really? . What need, what hole in the market are we filling for the EU exactly? . Will take 50 years to pivot towards the EU, and in all likelihood we will likely never prosper given the inevitable talent drain which will follow. That could of course be offset by encouraging immigration of talented, contributing professionals, the exact opposite sort of people that we currently seem to attract. this is before you consider practical issues, a hard border with England, the separation of families, the lack of ports and infrastructure, the debt, the lack of detailed planning around currency. part of me wants it to happen, the other part of me will be sad because I will be forced to leave
John Findlay Posted April 29 Posted April 29 12 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: I occasionally read this thread and it’s frightening how misinformed and delusional some of you really are, it genuinely is one of the greatest brainwashing scams in history that so may of you have been convinced that the issues in your life are somehow the fault of Westminster and our friends and relatives south of the border. Scotlands economy (or what’s left of it after you’ve killed oil and gas, and your 2014 vote decimated our financial services) is 100% reliant on the UK. Do you really really think we will leave the UK flip a switch and be a prosperous EU nation? Really? . What need, what hole in the market are we filling for the EU exactly? . Will take 50 years to pivot towards the EU, and in all likelihood we will likely never prosper given the inevitable talent drain which will follow. That could of course be offset by encouraging immigration of talented, contributing professionals, the exact opposite sort of people that we currently seem to attract. this is before you consider practical issues, a hard border with England, the separation of families, the lack of ports and infrastructure, the debt, the lack of detailed planning around currency. part of me wants it to happen, the other part of me will be sad because I will be forced to leave I will have long met my maker.
manaliveits105 Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 hour ago, XB52 said: It has been stated numerous times that we would use sterling after independence, before transitioning to the Scottish pound, although there may be a push to join the Euro once we rejoin the EU. We have no obligation to take any share of the National debt. Having said that, negotiations will no doubt take place where UK assets are allocated to Scotland in return for a share of the debt. To join the EU you need an annual fiscal deficit of 3% or less Scotlands latest produced figure 2024/25 is 11.6%.
lost in space Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 hour ago, Boab said: To try to put this to bed, because I enjoy our debates, I just think it’s a contradiction accepting titles when you are supposed to represent a socialist party. Obviously, the LP are not that now and at a few points in the past they have had most peers in the House of Lords. I like my socialists anti-monarchy and all that goes with it. It’s archaic and have respect for anyone who refuses to accept titles. Said my piece, happy to move on. I too enjoy these debates and know that we all have different views. I do believe in democracy (as I am sure you do). If the people want to scrap the monarchy (I prefer we dont) and scrap the hereditary peers (I prefer we do), then fine. I would even accept a YES vote by a referendum majority (60% though!!!). Yes, move on - Jackie's ears must be burning.
Dennis Denuto Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 minute ago, lost in space said: I too enjoy these debates and know that we all have different views. I do believe in democracy (as I am sure you do). If the people want to scrap the monarchy (I prefer we dont) and scrap the hereditary peers (I prefer we do), then fine. I would even accept a YES vote by a referendum majority (60% though!!!). Yes, move on - Jackie's ears must be burning. How do we scrap the monarchy, hereditary peers and the union democratically?
lost in space Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 minute ago, Dennis Denuto said: How do we scrap the monarchy, hereditary peers and the union democratically? Re monarchy and Peers - probably a private members bill that goes through Parliament. Obv turkeys won't vote for Xmas but there are arrangements for that, I think. Scrapping the Union - needs a referendum which Scotland can have - once the SNP show so much competence that a large number of Scots vote for them - so "Never".
jack D and coke Posted April 30 Posted April 30 As someone who voted Yes it’s always tough reading something like this. It’s certainly fairly gauling that the snp never really flesh anything out or come up with their own alternative to GERS which we’re always told aren’t a good reflection of our actual situation. 20 years of them grifting us about something that isn’t possible? https://spectator.com/article/the-scottish-independence-lie/?fbclid=IwdGRleARfzW1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeTIpStKKh6pA_5_-UVzFcY86ptipLGjq636xHg4-NhR8CY1aMjF6eyIWrWPY_aem_Fb7WXqKKwVwO5lpi2B9a7g
jack D and coke Posted April 30 Posted April 30 12 hours ago, manaliveits105 said: To join the EU you need an annual fiscal deficit of 3% or less Scotlands latest produced figure 2024/25 is 11.6%. How many times does this need repeated…that is for joining the euro. The EU also said they wanted a war ravaged Ukraine to join. What would their deficit be now?
Dennis Denuto Posted April 30 Posted April 30 13 hours ago, manaliveits105 said: To join the EU you need an annual fiscal deficit of 3% or less Scotlands latest produced figure 2024/25 is 11.6%. What is the deficit of an Independent Scotland? With those figures it looks like being in the UK is dragging us down.
Gundermann Posted April 30 Posted April 30 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: As someone who voted Yes it’s always tough reading something like this. It’s certainly fairly gauling that the snp never really flesh anything out or come up with their own alternative to GERS which we’re always told aren’t a good reflection of our actual situation. 20 years of them grifting us about something that isn’t possible? https://spectator.com/article/the-scottish-independence-lie/?fbclid=IwdGRleARfzW1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeTIpStKKh6pA_5_-UVzFcY86ptipLGjq636xHg4-NhR8CY1aMjF6eyIWrWPY_aem_Fb7WXqKKwVwO5lpi2B9a7g 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: How many times does this need repeated…that is for joining the euro. The EU also said they wanted a war ravaged Ukraine to join. What would their deficit be now? The Spectator? No axe to grind there. eh? Is that an organ that you read on a regular basis and reflects you and your concerns? (Am being semi-serious here...) That said, Fraser Nelson's defence of multi-culturalism made a lot of valid points and suprised me somewhat. Maybe he's just an 'economic' conservative and died-in-the-wool Brit who has no time for any blood and soil nonsense? Good points re the EU and Ukraine. Suffice to say a war-ravaged UK managed to create the glorious institution that is the NHS. Where there's a will... Brexit was/ is an utter shitshow but aye, the EU is not be-all and end-all of anything. I'd like closer ties and free movement but whether that is via full membership or a Norway-style agreement, I don't know.
The Real Maroonblood Posted April 30 Posted April 30 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: How many times does this need repeated…that is for joining the euro. The EU also said they wanted a war ravaged Ukraine to join. What would their deficit be now? You have to repeat this for the hard of thinking.
jack D and coke Posted April 30 Posted April 30 29 minutes ago, Gundermann said: The Spectator? No axe to grind there. eh? Is that an organ that you read on a regular basis and reflects you and your concerns? (Am being semi-serious here...) That said, Fraser Nelson's defence of multi-culturalism made a lot of valid points and suprised me somewhat. Maybe he's just an 'economic' conservative and died-in-the-wool Brit who has no time for any blood and soil nonsense? Good points re the EU and Ukraine. Suffice to say a war-ravaged UK managed to create the glorious institution that is the NHS. Where there's a will... Brexit was/ is an utter shitshow but aye, the EU is not be-all and end-all of anything. I'd like closer ties and free movement but whether that is via full membership or a Norway-style agreement, I don't know. Indeed is glorious but imo theres no way we could create anything like that now, the NHS I mean. Back after the war Britain was united and everyone was in, that’s not the case now. I’m not sure I’d want Scotland back in either but drives me mad reading that deficit pish. How many times does that need explained🤦🏽♂️
That thing you do Posted April 30 Posted April 30 16 hours ago, kingantti1874 said: I occasionally read this thread and it’s frightening how misinformed and delusional some of you really are, it genuinely is one of the greatest brainwashing scams in history that so may of you have been convinced that the issues in your life are somehow the fault of Westminster and our friends and relatives south of the border. Scotlands economy (or what’s left of it after you’ve killed oil and gas, and your 2014 vote decimated our financial services) is 100% reliant on the UK. Do you really really think we will leave the UK flip a switch and be a prosperous EU nation? Really? . What need, what hole in the market are we filling for the EU exactly? . Will take 50 years to pivot towards the EU, and in all likelihood we will likely never prosper given the inevitable talent drain which will follow. That could of course be offset by encouraging immigration of talented, contributing professionals, the exact opposite sort of people that we currently seem to attract. this is before you consider practical issues, a hard border with England, the separation of families, the lack of ports and infrastructure, the debt, the lack of detailed planning around currency. part of me wants it to happen, the other part of me will be sad because I will be forced to leave Flick a switch no. And anybody suggesting day one its all rainbows in not being honest. But medium term, Ireland, Poland (and others) have become and are better off than us. But lets examine your other points: Talent drain: Happens now, happened in my parents generation. Folk left and emigrated, some to London, some to Europe. Thats happens now in the UK. Noone in their right mind is opening a business now in the UK, as others said, entreprenuers are offski. Hard Border with England: Won't happen, a CTA like with Ireland will prevail because England need it as well. They won't admit it though but why do so when it terrifies people to vote no. Immigration: You've just made the case for independence on that. The UK isnt interested in Scotlands specific needs. If it was a Scotland only visa system devolved to Scotland so we could offer specific routes our economy needs would be in place. And plenty countries do this. I lived in a special economic zone of Korea that issued own visas and had own residency requirements. Immigration is reserved to Westminster so it failing us now is a strange reason to keep it that way but each to their own. Separation of families: Hyperbole. Family ties will allow dual citizenship and family will have rights to live and work in Scotland. Even the USA and Mexico have family reunification visas it's ludicrous Scotland wouldn't. Its not the Berlin wall, it's a political nation state boundary. Infrastructure/Ports: Will take time but doable to put in place including digital twinning. Mexico just built an oceanic corridor including two deep water ports. If ports/infrastructure are so bad in the UK, how is this an advert for staying in it? Is it not restricting Scotland and so precisely why Scotland should be independent? Economy: just research Scotland economic mix we have plenty to offer.
Konrad von Carstein Posted April 30 Posted April 30 1 hour ago, That thing you do said: Flick a switch no. And anybody suggesting day one its all rainbows in not being honest. But medium term, Ireland, Poland (and others) have become and are better off than us. But lets examine your other points: Talent drain: Happens now, happened in my parents generation. Folk left and emigrated, some to London, some to Europe. Thats happens now in the UK. Noone in their right mind is opening a business now in the UK, as others said, entreprenuers are offski. Hard Border with England: Won't happen, a CTA like with Ireland will prevail because England need it as well. They won't admit it though but why do so when it terrifies people to vote no. Immigration: You've just made the case for independence on that. The UK isnt interested in Scotlands specific needs. If it was a Scotland only visa system devolved to Scotland so we could offer specific routes our economy needs would be in place. And plenty countries do this. I lived in a special economic zone of Korea that issued own visas and had own residency requirements. Immigration is reserved to Westminster so it failing us now is a strange reason to keep it that way but each to their own. Separation of families: Hyperbole. Family ties will allow dual citizenship and family will have rights to live and work in Scotland. Even the USA and Mexico have family reunification visas it's ludicrous Scotland wouldn't. Its not the Berlin wall, it's a political nation state boundary. Infrastructure/Ports: Will take time but doable to put in place including digital twinning. Mexico just built an oceanic corridor including two deep water ports. If ports/infrastructure are so bad in the UK, how is this an advert for staying in it? Is it not restricting Scotland and so precisely why Scotland should be independent? Economy: just research Scotland economic mix we have plenty to offer. Good post... Very thought provoking.
Thunder and Lightning Posted April 30 Posted April 30 Remember when honest John gave a stirring speech setting out his plan for the future filling us all with belief? Na, me neither.
jack D and coke Posted April 30 Posted April 30 2 hours ago, Thunder and Lightning said: Remember when honest John gave a stirring speech setting out his plan for the future filling us all with belief? Na, me neither. That useless goon couldn’t stir his coffee. The SNP would shit themselves if they got a section 30. I guarantee it. They’d get taken apart when pressed. Theres no Salmond, Neil, Sillars etc this time to bat off the tougher questions. Imagine who they’d send to the front line? It’s absolutely tragic how hollowed out they’ve become. It’s really annoys me, I loathe them now. That student union would get chucked about like a cheap tracksuit under any pressure.
Jamboross Posted April 30 Posted April 30 42 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: That useless goon couldn’t stir his coffee. The SNP would shit themselves if they got a section 30. I guarantee it. They’d get taken apart when pressed. Theres no Salmond, Neil, Sillars etc this time to bat off the tougher questions. Imagine who they’d send to the front line? It’s absolutely tragic how hollowed out they’ve become. It’s really annoys me, I loathe them now. That student union would get chucked about like a cheap tracksuit under any pressure. There's a whole load of the old guard retiring this year so hopefully some fresh faces can bring new ideas and a bit more competence. Stephen Flynn is probably the best of the bunch, always think he speaks well at Westminster and would probably be the favourite to replace Swinney when the time comes.
jack D and coke Posted April 30 Posted April 30 31 minutes ago, Jamboross said: There's a whole load of the old guard retiring this year so hopefully some fresh faces can bring new ideas and a bit more competence. Stephen Flynn is probably the best of the bunch, always think he speaks well at Westminster and would probably be the favourite to replace Swinney when the time comes. I used to think Flynn was decent I’m really not sure anymore. I honestly don’t think they’ve got anyone anymore to inspire anyone to do anything. They just trot lines out you could fall asleep when any one of them starts talking with Swinney maybe being the worst. Look at the likes of Humza becoming FM too I mean what a clown show. Sturgeon has a lot to answer for. The SNP have now become what Labour used to be. People just vote for them because…they don’t even know why and this teaming up with the greens is doing them no favours imo. It’s so disappointing to see the nick they’re in these days. At one point to me they seemed to be a hope for something different when they’re just as bad as the rest. On the gravy train.
kingantti1874 Posted April 30 Posted April 30 (edited) 6 hours ago, That thing you do said: Flick a switch no. And anybody suggesting day one its all rainbows in not being honest. But medium term, Ireland, Poland (and others) have become and are better off than us. But lets examine your other points: Talent drain: Happens now, happened in my parents generation. Folk left and emigrated, some to London, some to Europe. Thats happens now in the UK. Noone in their right mind is opening a business now in the UK, as others said, entreprenuers are offski. Hard Border with England: Won't happen, a CTA like with Ireland will prevail because England need it as well. They won't admit it though but why do so when it terrifies people to vote no. Immigration: You've just made the case for independence on that. The UK isnt interested in Scotlands specific needs. If it was a Scotland only visa system devolved to Scotland so we could offer specific routes our economy needs would be in place. And plenty countries do this. I lived in a special economic zone of Korea that issued own visas and had own residency requirements. Immigration is reserved to Westminster so it failing us now is a strange reason to keep it that way but each to their own. Separation of families: Hyperbole. Family ties will allow dual citizenship and family will have rights to live and work in Scotland. Even the USA and Mexico have family reunification visas it's ludicrous Scotland wouldn't. Its not the Berlin wall, it's a political nation state boundary. Infrastructure/Ports: Will take time but doable to put in place including digital twinning. Mexico just built an oceanic corridor including two deep water ports. If ports/infrastructure are so bad in the UK, how is this an advert for staying in it? Is it not restricting Scotland and so precisely why Scotland should be independent? Economy: just research Scotland economic mix we have plenty to offer. Honestly it reads like a wish list rather than reality, the reality is. Scotland will be poorer, especially in the short to medium term. there is absolutely no doubt about it. If there was an economic case for independence it would have been made a long time ago and yet it has not ever been made. Not sure why you are holding Poland up as an example but Ireland is a good example. Absolutely dirt poor until they took advantage of a blossoming EU in the 1990’s and early 2000’s, and had the intelligence and foresight to reduce taxes to attract inward investment. Sadly, those levels of block grants are not available any longer, there is no opportunity to attract that investment as there is no gap to fill, and in all honesty even if there was Scotland people are far too thick to understand the benefits of lowering tax. God forbid folk don’t get their supposedly free shit in the short term It not the union that holds Scotland back, rampant socialism holds us back, this belief that fairness is those who work their arses off should support everyone else, this belief that we should welcome foreign dependents rather than filling needs, this belief that school should focus on the a minimum level for all rather than striving for excellence. We are a jealous mess, a benefits dependent cesspit and even those who do work, too many work for in an incredily inefficient and public sector so they are still a net loss to the public purse . Incredibly the SNP have managed to convince millions that their lives are shite on account of Westminster when the reality is it’s their own fault. As someone who works in what remains of FS, knowing those organisations as I do, knowing that 95% of their business is in England I know for a fact I’ll have to move. As I say one part of me sad, the other calm knowing i won’t be paying or staying for the absolute shambles that would follow. If there is ever a hint of it happening the house will be up for sale . Edited April 30 by kingantti1874
kingantti1874 Posted April 30 Posted April 30 9 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said: What is the deficit of an Independent Scotland? With those figures it looks like being in the UK is dragging us down. Overspending is dragging us down despite the highest tax burden in history. Independence would result in enormous spending cuts when you realise the SNP have bought you off with the promise of freebies, a spiralling tax bill for ordinary working people who will realise just how much they were dependent on the talent they’ve driven away.
Dennis Denuto Posted April 30 Posted April 30 22 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: Overspending is dragging us down despite the highest tax burden in history. Independence would result in enormous spending cuts when you realise the SNP have bought you off with the promise of freebies, a spiralling tax bill for ordinary working people who will realise just how much they were dependent on the talent they’ve driven away. If the talent goes over a few % pints in tax then it’s not worth bothering about, they will always find somewhere to pay less tax. Talent needs opportunity and if they are leaving now that is not the fault of an independent country. Scotland will thrive because of its resources and people, not because of a few economic leavers here and there.
kingantti1874 Posted April 30 Posted April 30 1 hour ago, Dennis Denuto said: If the talent goes over a few % pints in tax then it’s not worth bothering about, they will always find somewhere to pay less tax. Talent needs opportunity and if they are leaving now that is not the fault of an independent country. Scotland will thrive because of its resources and people, not because of a few economic leavers here and there. they will leave the country with the jobs . Scotland will not thrive, the jobs will go. Take financial services or what left of it. Which customers do you think the banks serve? Where do you think they come from exactly. it will be the greatest act of self sabotage since Brexit.
Dennis Denuto Posted April 30 Posted April 30 36 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: they will leave the country with the jobs . Scotland will not thrive, the jobs will go. Take financial services or what left of it. Which customers do you think the banks serve? Where do you think they come from exactly. it will be the greatest act of self sabotage since Brexit. I disagree, you are referencing Scotland as it is now, within failing Union and trapped in the failure of Brexit. I have always believed Scotland would thrive as an economic partner to the UK but not tied to them. Same as the EU. You disagree, that’s fine, I am not trying to convince you to change your view, just posting my alternative take.
That thing you do Posted April 30 Posted April 30 7 hours ago, kingantti1874 said: Honestly it reads like a wish list rather than reality, the reality is. Scotland will be poorer, especially in the short to medium term. there is absolutely no doubt about it. If there was an economic case for independence it would have been made a long time ago and yet it has not ever been made. Not sure why you are holding Poland up as an example but Ireland is a good example. Absolutely dirt poor until they took advantage of a blossoming EU in the 1990’s and early 2000’s, and had the intelligence and foresight to reduce taxes to attract inward investment. Sadly, those levels of block grants are not available any longer, there is no opportunity to attract that investment as there is no gap to fill, and in all honesty even if there was Scotland people are far too thick to understand the benefits of lowering tax. God forbid folk don’t get their supposedly free shit in the short term It not the union that holds Scotland back, rampant socialism holds us back, this belief that fairness is those who work their arses off should support everyone else, this belief that we should welcome foreign dependents rather than filling needs, this belief that school should focus on the a minimum level for all rather than striving for excellence. We are a jealous mess, a benefits dependent cesspit and even those who do work, too many work for in an incredily inefficient and public sector so they are still a net loss to the public purse . Incredibly the SNP have managed to convince millions that their lives are shite on account of Westminster when the reality is it’s their own fault. As someone who works in what remains of FS, knowing those organisations as I do, knowing that 95% of their business is in England I know for a fact I’ll have to move. As I say one part of me sad, the other calm knowing i won’t be paying or staying for the absolute shambles that would follow. If there is ever a hint of it happening the house will be up for sale . The thing I hate about devolution is that its easy to point to Westminster and say its all their fault, while Westminster and Unionists play the same game. Neither the SNP or Westminster get everything right. Both have messed things up and both should be criticised for what they get wrong. But lets use sourced facts: Westminster holds primary responsibility for Scotland's economic pressures and fiscal constraints that drag on quality of life, while the SNP bears blame for devolved service failures like NHS delays and wasteful projects. Quantified Westminster mistakes include £100 billion in UK‑wide waste (nearly double the entirety of Scotland's £67.9 billion 2026‑27 budget) from HS2 overruns and Brexit costs, plus Scotland's higher energy bills despite North Sea oil revenues funneled south. SNP errors total £3.7+ billion in mismanagement, including £220 million lost on the failed Deposit Return Scheme (DRS) and £110 million on PR/spin. [bbc.co](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c709wvn70vwo) Westminster's Core Faults Westminster controls macroeconomics, setting Scotland's block grant (~£40 billion annually) and fiscal policy that limits Holyrood's spending power. Austerity post‑2010 cut Scotland's budget by 9% in real terms, fueling poverty (20% child poverty rate) and stagnant wages. (https://www.snp.org/westminster-serves-the-rich-scotland-can-do-so-much-better/) Energy poverty: Scotland generates 25% of UK's renewables yet pays £200+ more on bills due to UK energy market rules; SNP blames Westminster for blocking onshore wind.(https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/posts/scotland-is-rich-in-energy-but-because-of-westminster-decisions-we-pay-some-of-t/1532951648191713/) Fiscal drag: No fiscal flexibility means Scotland misses £800 million+ revenue from SNP tax policies; Westminster's NI hike adds social care strain. (https://www.snp.org/what-does-the-scottish-budget-mean-for-you/) Quantified waste: £100 billion UK squander (Brexit £40 billion/year + HS2 costs. SNP Devolved Mismanagement SNP controls health, education, and justice (25% of budget), where quality‑of‑life metrics have worsened: NHS satisfaction at 23% (down from 64% in 2019), record waiting lists (800,000+), and education scores lagging UK average. (https://natcen.ac.uk/changing-attitudes-how-scotland-run) Waste quantified: -DRS fiasco: £220 million spent, scrapped due to SNP ignoring UK internal market rules; sued by Biffa. [scottishconservatives](https://www.scottishconservatives.com/news/18-years-of-snp-failure/) -PR/spin: £110 million on communications since 2015. [spectator](https://spectator.com/article/mcspaff-scotland-is-the-worst-when-it-comes-to-government-waste/) - IT/procurement failures: £250+ million extra on police/health IT; Queen Elizabeth Hospital (£840 million) with deadly defects. [thinkscotland](https://thinkscotland.org/2021/04/hundreds-of-millions-wasted-by-snp-incompetence/) - Total SNP waste: £3.7 billion per Scottish Labour audit (18 years). [morningstaronline.co](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/snp-wasted-billions-say-scottish-labour) Verified waste by Westminster £100bn Verified waste in devolved areas £3.8bn Or waste in devolved Scotland is 3.8% of that wasted by UK Gov. Im not defending the SNP for wasting that kind of money, and it should be called out but they didnt give us Brexit, Truss, Migrant crisis, Grayling shipping contract to company with no ships, PPE scandal to name a few are all caused by Westminster. The issue is evaluating what makes lives "shite". Anything that is caused by financial mismanagement or policy failure is westminster in the main. Anything thats a devolved service is on the SNP. So you can make a case the SNP are the biggest issue in your life and be valid if its about health (especially) But equally there a ton of things that impact those services like budgets, the block grant, energy costs, migrant/population pressures that can make the argument the other way.
Chairman of the Bored Posted May 1 Posted May 1 2 hours ago, That thing you do said: The thing I hate about devolution is that its easy to point to Westminster and say its all their fault, while Westminster and Unionists play the same game. Neither the SNP or Westminster get everything right. Both have messed things up and both should be criticised for what they get wrong. But lets use sourced facts: Westminster holds primary responsibility for Scotland's economic pressures and fiscal constraints that drag on quality of life, while the SNP bears blame for devolved service failures like NHS delays and wasteful projects. Quantified Westminster mistakes include £100 billion in UK‑wide waste (nearly double the entirety of Scotland's £67.9 billion 2026‑27 budget) from HS2 overruns and Brexit costs, plus Scotland's higher energy bills despite North Sea oil revenues funneled south. SNP errors total £3.7+ billion in mismanagement, including £220 million lost on the failed Deposit Return Scheme (DRS) and £110 million on PR/spin. [bbc.co](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c709wvn70vwo) Westminster's Core Faults Westminster controls macroeconomics, setting Scotland's block grant (~£40 billion annually) and fiscal policy that limits Holyrood's spending power. Austerity post‑2010 cut Scotland's budget by 9% in real terms, fueling poverty (20% child poverty rate) and stagnant wages. (https://www.snp.org/westminster-serves-the-rich-scotland-can-do-so-much-better/) Energy poverty: Scotland generates 25% of UK's renewables yet pays £200+ more on bills due to UK energy market rules; SNP blames Westminster for blocking onshore wind.(https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/posts/scotland-is-rich-in-energy-but-because-of-westminster-decisions-we-pay-some-of-t/1532951648191713/) Fiscal drag: No fiscal flexibility means Scotland misses £800 million+ revenue from SNP tax policies; Westminster's NI hike adds social care strain. (https://www.snp.org/what-does-the-scottish-budget-mean-for-you/) Quantified waste: £100 billion UK squander (Brexit £40 billion/year + HS2 costs. SNP Devolved Mismanagement SNP controls health, education, and justice (25% of budget), where quality‑of‑life metrics have worsened: NHS satisfaction at 23% (down from 64% in 2019), record waiting lists (800,000+), and education scores lagging UK average. (https://natcen.ac.uk/changing-attitudes-how-scotland-run) Waste quantified: -DRS fiasco: £220 million spent, scrapped due to SNP ignoring UK internal market rules; sued by Biffa. [scottishconservatives](https://www.scottishconservatives.com/news/18-years-of-snp-failure/) -PR/spin: £110 million on communications since 2015. [spectator](https://spectator.com/article/mcspaff-scotland-is-the-worst-when-it-comes-to-government-waste/) - IT/procurement failures: £250+ million extra on police/health IT; Queen Elizabeth Hospital (£840 million) with deadly defects. [thinkscotland](https://thinkscotland.org/2021/04/hundreds-of-millions-wasted-by-snp-incompetence/) - Total SNP waste: £3.7 billion per Scottish Labour audit (18 years). [morningstaronline.co](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/snp-wasted-billions-say-scottish-labour) Verified waste by Westminster £100bn Verified waste in devolved areas £3.8bn Or waste in devolved Scotland is 3.8% of that wasted by UK Gov. Im not defending the SNP for wasting that kind of money, and it should be called out but they didnt give us Brexit, Truss, Migrant crisis, Grayling shipping contract to company with no ships, PPE scandal to name a few are all caused by Westminster. The issue is evaluating what makes lives "shite". Anything that is caused by financial mismanagement or policy failure is westminster in the main. Anything thats a devolved service is on the SNP. So you can make a case the SNP are the biggest issue in your life and be valid if its about health (especially) But equally there a ton of things that impact those services like budgets, the block grant, energy costs, migrant/population pressures that can make the argument the other way. Ai, ai, ai!
Sydney Posted May 1 Posted May 1 18 hours ago, That thing you do said: Noone in their right mind is opening a business now in the UK, as others said, entreprenuers are offski. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06152/ As of 1 January 2025, there were 5.7 million private sector businesses in the UK. This was a 3.5% increase from January 2024. The number of businesses increased by 64% from 2000 to 2025. In 2024, 317,000 businesses opened in the UK and 280,000 businesses closed. The business birth rate (the proportion of active businesses that began trading in the reporting year) was 11.1%, similar to 2023. The business death rate (the proportion of active businesses that ceased trading in the reporting year) was 9.8%, the lowest since 2016.
JamboGlen Posted May 1 Posted May 1 12 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said: I disagree, you are referencing Scotland as it is now, within failing Union and trapped in the failure of Brexit. I have always believed Scotland would thrive as an economic partner to the UK but not tied to them. Same as the EU. You disagree, that’s fine, I am not trying to convince you to change your view, just posting my alternative take. If Brexit has been damaging to Scotland (not many would disagree) can you explain why leaving our largest trading partner, inserting a hard border and having to establish a new currency will be beneficial?
Dennis Denuto Posted May 1 Posted May 1 29 minutes ago, JamboGlen said: If Brexit has been damaging to Scotland (not many would disagree) can you explain why leaving our largest trading partner, inserting a hard border and having to establish a new currency will be beneficial? I am not proposing a hard border and I would want an economic union with the rUK. Personally i would want to join the Euro rather than establish a new currency. The benefits are about democracy not economic, contrary to popular belief it is not all about the economy.
JamboGlen Posted May 1 Posted May 1 1 minute ago, Dennis Denuto said: I am not proposing a hard border and I would want an economic union with the rUK. Personally i would want to join the Euro rather than establish a new currency. The benefits are about democracy not economic, contrary to popular belief it is not all about the economy. We already have an economic union with the UK. I'm glad we agree though that independence wouldn't be about the economy as only an idiot would think it could be economically beneficial.
Dennis Denuto Posted May 1 Posted May 1 2 minutes ago, JamboGlen said: We already have an economic union with the UK. I'm glad we agree though that independence wouldn't be about the economy as only an idiot would think it could be economically beneficial. I don't think it would be economically damaging either, it is all about what we make of it. We are not in an economic union we are in one where our entire sovereignty is signed over to another country, we ceased to exist, we are a dead country, an ex-country.
JamboGlen Posted May 1 Posted May 1 1 minute ago, Dennis Denuto said: I don't think it would be economically damaging either, it is all about what we make of it. We are not in an economic union we are in one where our entire sovereignty is signed over to another country, we ceased to exist, we are a dead country, an ex-country. Thats astonishing
Dennis Denuto Posted May 1 Posted May 1 1 minute ago, JamboGlen said: Thats astonishing There are a lot of countries that are similar to Scotland that manage fine without being part of the UK, the fact you do not see that is astonishing.
JamboGlen Posted May 1 Posted May 1 Just now, Dennis Denuto said: There are a lot of countries that are similar to Scotland that manage fine without being part of the UK, the fact you do not see that is astonishing. There are lots of countries that were never EU members. Seperating from your economic zone, switching currency and inserting hard borders is economic suicide.
Gundermann Posted May 1 Posted May 1 23 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said: I don't think it would be economically damaging either, it is all about what we make of it. We are not in an economic union we are in one where our entire sovereignty is signed over to another country, we ceased to exist, we are a dead country, an ex-country.
The Real Maroonblood Posted May 1 Posted May 1 28 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said: I don't think it would be economically damaging either, it is all about what we make of it. We are not in an economic union we are in one where our entire sovereignty is signed over to another country, we ceased to exist, we are a dead country, an ex-country. Excellent post.
Serge Pizzorno Posted May 1 Posted May 1 On 29/04/2026 at 18:05, kingantti1874 said: I occasionally read this thread and it’s frightening how misinformed and delusional some of you really are, it genuinely is one of the greatest brainwashing scams in history that so may of you have been convinced that the issues in your life are somehow the fault of Westminster and our friends and relatives south of the border. Scotlands economy (or what’s left of it after you’ve killed oil and gas, and your 2014 vote decimated our financial services) is 100% reliant on the UK. Do you really really think we will leave the UK flip a switch and be a prosperous EU nation? Really? . What need, what hole in the market are we filling for the EU exactly? . Will take 50 years to pivot towards the EU, and in all likelihood we will likely never prosper given the inevitable talent drain which will follow. That could of course be offset by encouraging immigration of talented, contributing professionals, the exact opposite sort of people that we currently seem to attract. this is before you consider practical issues, a hard border with England, the separation of families, the lack of ports and infrastructure, the debt, the lack of detailed planning around currency. part of me wants it to happen, the other part of me will be sad because I will be forced to leave I agree, but I also add that the same is done too that immigration etc is the reason for the issues in peoples lives when it is not.
Hagar the Horrible Posted May 1 Posted May 1 So Swinney keeping the high ground by NOT meeting Trump. But the King managed to get tariffs lifted on Whisky, to be fair i was worried about him meeting the man child. But it was the King that handled it with class. Trump had no class. What has Swinney done for international trade? The depressing thing is the SNP and the Jew hating greens will do well
Thunder and Lightning Posted May 1 Posted May 1 3 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said: There are a lot of countries that are similar to Scotland that manage fine without being part of the UK, the fact you do not see that is astonishing. There are yes. All established. Not where Scotland are at the moment. How many years of pain did it take these countries to flourish?
kingantti1874 Posted May 1 Posted May 1 4 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said: There are a lot of countries that are similar to Scotland that manage fine without being part of the UK, the fact you do not see that is astonishing. our entire economy is build to provide services to the UK. I’m sorry it’s Absolutley frightening that people like you don’t think it will be economically damaging. Sure we can “try”and pivot to the EU but it will take decades. It will not be economically damaging, it will be a complete catastrophe in the short -medium term.
kingantti1874 Posted May 1 Posted May 1 3 hours ago, Serge Pizzorno said: I agree, but I also add that the same is done too that immigration etc is the reason for the issues in peoples lives when it is not. no one is against immigration of value add people who share reasonable values and are a good cultural fit. but the immigration of economically dependent people in huge numbers IS a huge problem. It puts stain on the already ludicrous levels of public spending, pressure on housing, schooling and services. You want to move here you MUST be able to support yourself. and for those who don’t want to come here integrate properly, who don’t want to adhere to decent western values on account of a work of fiction and want to push their own horrible values should not be welcome.
kingantti1874 Posted May 1 Posted May 1 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said: I don't think it would be economically damaging either, it is all about what we make of it. We are not in an economic union we are in one where our entire sovereignty is signed over to another country, we ceased to exist, we are a dead country, an ex-country. Only in your eyes, in mine we ARE the union. We created it, we dominated within it and on account of it. There is a lot of blue in the Union Jack for a reason. Like every society there are those who don’t flourish, being governed by Westminster or Holyrood won’t change that. losers will continue to lose Edited May 1 by kingantti1874
Gundermann Posted May 1 Posted May 1 1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said: Only in your eyes, in mine we ARE the union. We created it, we dominated within it and on account of it. There is a lot of blue in the Union Jack for a reason. Like every society there are those who don’t flourish, being governed by Westminster or Holyrood won’t change that. losers will continue to lose
Boab Posted May 1 Posted May 1 1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said: no one is against immigration of value add people who share reasonable values and are a good cultural fit. but the immigration of economically dependent people in huge numbers IS a huge problem. It puts stain on the already ludicrous levels of public spending, pressure on housing, schooling and services. You want to move here you MUST be able to support yourself. and for those who don’t want to come here integrate properly, who don’t want to adhere to decent western values on account of a work of fiction and want to push their own horrible values should not be welcome. Regarding your last paragraph…that’s no way to speak about the Jews ! 🙄
kingantti1874 Posted May 1 Posted May 1 4 minutes ago, Boab said: Regarding your last paragraph…that’s no way to speak about the Jews ! 🙄 Antisemitic post at this time. Good to know what kind of individual im debating with
Boab Posted May 1 Posted May 1 10 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: Antisemitic post at this time. Good to know what kind of individual im debating with Aw lighten up ya miserable sod. If you can’t see satire, that’s worrying.
Hagar the Horrible Posted May 1 Posted May 1 What a piece of work Swinney is, taking full credit for Trump lifting tariffs on whisky. It was all the King. Shameful just Shameful
Hagar the Horrible Posted May 1 Posted May 1 2 hours ago, JamboGlen said: Some job by Swinney with th.. won at Bannoce tariffs lifted. He is Jamestown analytics, he can roundhouse kick Chuck Norris.
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