Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[OTT]

On 31/10/2025 at 10:30, XB52 said:

SNP won the by-election in Stirling and, surprisingly, Labour came 2nd ahead of Reform. Still far too many people voting for reform though

 

I think its the ugly face of Unionism in Scotland. 

 

Its transcending ideology. Labour voters should have no business voting Reform. They are Tories. If you find yourself voting for Reform tactically because you don't want the SNP to win, then the reality is that you're voting against another left wing party to support an ultra-right, racist trope of charlatans who are led by a guy who plunged the UK into the economic mess it currently is stuck in. If you have to do that to protect the Union that you hold so dear, is it really a Union worth protecting? 

 

*I'm using you as in a third party btw, I'm conscious you're an SNP voter  

[OTT]

Good article by Robin McAlpine here: https://archive.is/HNgmT

 

Based on the below graph. This is not normal. 

 

[lost in space]

28 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I think its the ugly face of Unionism in Scotland. 

 

Its transcending ideology. Labour voters should have no business voting Reform. They are Tories. If you find yourself voting for Reform tactically because you don't want the SNP to win, then the reality is that you're voting against another left wing party to support an ultra-right, racist trope of charlatans who are led by a guy who plunged the UK into the economic mess it currently is stuck in. If you have to do that to protect the Union that you hold so dear, is it really a Union worth protecting? 

 

*I'm using you as in a third party btw, I'm conscious you're an SNP voter  

OTT -where is this idea come from that Labour voters are tactically voting for Reform?

Can you give further information on this?

 

Or is this just the ugly face of an Indy conspiracy theory?

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, lost in space said:

OTT -where is this idea come from that Labour voters are tactically voting for Reform?

Can you give further information on this?

 

Or is this just the ugly face of an Indy conspiracy theory?

Yep . Maybe they are voting reform cause they want to vote for reform . Seriously the spin from some.

[Gundermann]

16 hours ago, OTT said:

Good article by Robin McAlpine here: https://archive.is/HNgmT

 

Based on the below graph. This is not normal. 

 

 

Interesting graph though not surprising. Scotland should be incredibly wealthy but despite oil, renewable, whisky and tourism wealth - despite the 'freedom' of Brexit - we're poorer than ever. News today that the ScotGov is begging Reeves in London for an insight into tax rises/ spending cuts that affect us. What a shit state of affairs.

 

McAlpine is a dick, sadly, and I don't think many take him seriously. That said, his favoured idea of setting up a central Scottish bank sounds like the best way forward. Am unaware as to the ins and outs of this though. What would it entail?

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Interesting graph though not surprising. Scotland should be incredibly wealthy but despite oil, renewable, whisky and tourism wealth - despite the 'freedom' of Brexit - we're poorer than ever. News today that the ScotGov is begging Reeves in London for an insight into tax rises/ spending cuts that affect us. What a shit state of affairs.

 

McAlpine is a dick, sadly, and I don't think many take him seriously. That said, his favoured idea of setting up a central Scottish bank sounds like the best way forward. Am unaware as to the ins and outs of this though. What would it entail?

 

Yep. I don't know how Unionists look around at the embarrassment of riches we have, then contrast it with the pretty shitty standard of living, and then come to the conclusion we're well served within the Union. Its insanity. If anyone is unclear on the transfer of wealth out of Scotland, look at London before and after the discovery of oil (remind me how much oil is in English territorial waters?), or consider the absence of a Scottish Stock exchange (funny how close together these things are....)

 

I know you're not a McAlpine enthusiast, but even if you don't like him, broken clocks etc. It looks the start of a very solid argument to support some of the financial issues which dominate the Independence debate. I'd certainly be interested to know where Scotland should be sitting in this graph. The only thing unique about Scotland versus all of these other countries, is that we're in a Union, yet sit bottom of the pile. Doesn't lend itself to the idea of our resources being well managed by London at all. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Interesting graph though not surprising. Scotland should be incredibly wealthy but despite oil, renewable, whisky and tourism wealth - despite the 'freedom' of Brexit - we're poorer than ever. News today that the ScotGov is begging Reeves in London for an insight into tax rises/ spending cuts that affect us. What a shit state of affairs.

 

McAlpine is a dick, sadly, and I don't think many take him seriously. That said, his favoured idea of setting up a central Scottish bank sounds like the best way forward. Am unaware as to the ins and outs of this though. What would it entail?

This would be the banks currency. That’s all you need to know . It’s magical thinking from the SNP who still haven’t produced a credible economic plan for an Indy Scotland despite having decades to put one forward . 

 

 

[lost in space]

37 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yep. I don't know how Unionists look around at the embarrassment of riches we have, then contrast it with the pretty shitty standard of living, and then come to the conclusion we're well served within the Union. Its insanity. If anyone is unclear on the transfer of wealth out of Scotland, look at London before and after the discovery of oil (remind me how much oil is in English territorial waters?), or consider the absence of a Scottish Stock exchange (funny how close together these things are....)

 

I know you're not a McAlpine enthusiast, but even if you don't like him, broken clocks etc. It looks the start of a very solid argument to support some of the financial issues which dominate the Independence debate. I'd certainly be interested to know where Scotland should be sitting in this graph. The only thing unique about Scotland versus all of these other countries, is that we're in a Union, yet sit bottom of the pile. Doesn't lend itself to the idea of our resources being well managed by London at all. 

So did devolution not happen then? Did I just dream it?

 

Perhaps the reason that we have a poorer standard of living is because of drug misuse, alcoholism, obesity, lack of education, waiting lists for operations, criminality, a culture of living off benefits, tax cheats and a Scottish Govt who tax us too much.

These issues are not all unique to Scotland - but we are shamefully, league leaders in some.

 

Add that to a Govt who waste millions of pounds on bottle return schemes and the like and you will see why.

 

Perhaps it would help if the Scot Gvt took some responsibility rather than blame Westminster of course. 

 

Thankfully, most Indy supporters accept the faults we have with only the most naive (and FMs of course) blaming everything on London.

[Gundermann]

42 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yep. I don't know how Unionists look around at the embarrassment of riches we have, then contrast it with the pretty shitty standard of living, and then come to the conclusion we're well served within the Union. Its insanity. If anyone is unclear on the transfer of wealth out of Scotland, look at London before and after the discovery of oil (remind me how much oil is in English territorial waters?), or consider the absence of a Scottish Stock exchange (funny how close together these things are....)

 

I know you're not a McAlpine enthusiast, but even if you don't like him, broken clocks etc. It looks the start of a very solid argument to support some of the financial issues which dominate the Independence debate. I'd certainly be interested to know where Scotland should be sitting in this graph. The only thing unique about Scotland versus all of these other countries, is that we're in a Union, yet sit bottom of the pile. Doesn't lend itself to the idea of our resources being well managed by London at all. 

 

[That thing you do]

19 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

This would be the banks currency. That’s all you need to know . It’s magical thinking from the SNP who still haven’t produced a credible economic plan for an Indy Scotland despite having decades to put one forward . 

 

 

Really stupid post.

 

You've just shown an image of the pound and every other currency in the world. The pound is FIAT currency. Look up what that means. 

 

Scotland should have a different approach with a mixed physical and digital currency backed in part by something like gold and controlled inflationary management through a digital stable coin in the mix. If it did, it would be far from Monopoly money.

[il Duce McTarkin]

Kickback's ex-pat crypto gajillionaire laying the smackdown on wee jamesy.

 

Take it like a man, jamesy. Take it like a man.

[lost in space]

You have to laugh at Shona Robinsons pathetic greetin on the upcoming UK budget.  Scotland should not be an "afterthought" and -

Robison said: "I can't believe that a UK Labour government would actively take steps to cut Scotland's budget by around £1bn."

Shona trying to make out that Scotland is the victim, when in fact all of the UK will be.  This is particularly ridiculous as John Swinney has repeatedly called for the UK to raise income tax (hes no wise is he?).

 

Of course nobody in the UK wants tax rises and nobody in Scotland wants the grant to be reduced. It will give the Scottish Govt less money to squander - but it is the SNP that is to blame for the fact that we in Scotland have been paying more tax than the rest of the UK for years. 

 

The reason the grant would be reduced is because -

the UK gets money in from a variety of taxes and pays some to Scotland for some of the taxes it receives from the Scots (VAT, NI etc)

UK does not get income tax revenues from Scots - so the grant is reduced to take account of that

if the UK income tax rates rise, the grant will reduce to account for the UK not getting the "extra" tax from the Scots.

 

Nobody wants tax rises or budget cuts Shona.  Of course it is bad news - but stop with the conspiracy talk of Westminster actively targeting Scotland.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

38 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

Take it like a man, jamesy. Take it like a man.

I always do dear !! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

34 minutes ago, lost in space said:

You have to laugh at Shona Robinsons pathetic greetin on the upcoming UK budget.  Scotland should not be an "afterthought" and -

Robison said: "I can't believe that a UK Labour government would actively take steps to cut Scotland's budget by around £1bn."

Shona trying to make out that Scotland is the victim, when in fact all of the UK will be.  This is particularly ridiculous as John Swinney has repeatedly called for the UK to raise income tax (hes no wise is he?).

 

Of course nobody in the UK wants tax rises and nobody in Scotland wants the grant to be reduced. It will give the Scottish Govt less money to squander - but it is the SNP that is to blame for the fact that we in Scotland have been paying more tax than the rest of the UK for years. 

 

The reason the grant would be reduced is because -

the UK gets money in from a variety of taxes and pays some to Scotland for some of the taxes it receives from the Scots (VAT, NI etc)

UK does not get income tax revenues from Scots - so the grant is reduced to take account of that

if the UK income tax rates rise, the grant will reduce to account for the UK not getting the "extra" tax from the Scots.

 

Nobody wants tax rises or budget cuts Shona.  Of course it is bad news - but stop with the conspiracy talk of Westminster actively targeting Scotland.

 

 

It’s textbook stuff . Whey else do you expect ? 

[That thing you do]

1 hour ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

Kickback's ex-pat crypto gajillionaire laying the smackdown on wee jamesy.

 

Take it like a man, jamesy. Take it like a man.

 

Nope just suggesting a Scottish Central Bank would be mnopoly money is nonsense. Also, the point of FIAT currency is exactly why crypto came along. The US took everyone off the gold standard in the 70s and it was a license to print money and inflate. Look up Bretton Woods, its the first step as to why we are where we are. Bitcoin was created (its whitepaper) right after the 2008 financial crash. Thats not an accident, it was seen as a way to change the way things are done as the bankers couldnt be trusted.

 

And Im not uber wealthy from crypto, but I have had a big boost from it.

[il Duce McTarkin]

16 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

 

And Im not uber wealthy from crypto, but I have had a big boost from it.

 

🙂👍

[Nucky Thompson]

The English are stealing oor resources 

Now maybe even 600000 tonnes of shit because Scotland doesn't have enough incinerators 

[lost in space]

48 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

The English are stealing oor resources 

Now maybe even 600000 tonnes of shit because Scotland doesn't have enough incinerators 

"They can take all of the rubbish from our land -but they can't take our FREEDOM!!"

[Malinga the Swinga]

Scottish government going back to the courts to try and keep the ability to send males into female prisons. They're being sued by FWS who accuse government of failing to implement the biological sex using made earlier this year. Not only going back to court but there's to be a full judicial review of this with the tax payer picking up the bill despite government facing legal bill of over £600k thanks to two previous court defeats.

At this time, as long as male self identifies as a woman and is considered as not dangerous, even if they have convictions for violence against women, then our government will allow them to be sent to a womans prison.

You'd think there's a better use for tax payers money but nope, SNP government believe rights of the minority more important than rights of women.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

32 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Scottish government going back to the courts to try and keep the ability to send males into female prisons. They're being sued by FWS who accuse government of failing to implement the biological sex using made earlier this year. Not only going back to court but there's to be a full judicial review of this with the tax payer picking up the bill despite government facing legal bill of over £600k thanks to two previous court defeats.

At this time, as long as male self identifies as a woman and is considered as not dangerous, even if they have convictions for violence against women, then our government will allow them to be sent to a womans prison.

You'd think there's a better use for tax payers money but nope, SNP government believe rights of the minority more important than rights of women.

 

A tiny minority but very powerful one . For some very odd reason. . It’s hardly a vote winner and the “ progressives” think that allowing men who pretend to be women in women’s spaces is the right side of history . The SNP really hate women it seems . And as you the tax payers money wasted on this issue which was decided by the Supreme Court earlier this year is a disgrace . Dark forces operate at the very heart of the Scottish Govt . It’s that women prisoners who have more than likely have been abused by men are then traumatised by having men in their safe spaces . Not only sickening , it’s vengeful and vindictive 

[the posh bit]

On 03/11/2025 at 22:53, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yep . Maybe they are voting reform cause they want to vote for reform . Seriously the spin from some.

 

 

You'd be a very good starting point in this conversation. What took you from voting for Corbyn a few years ago to now being a voice for Reform?

[John Findlay]

27 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

A tiny minority but very powerful one . For some very odd reason. . It’s hardly a vote winner and the “ progressives” think that allowing men who pretend to be women in women’s spaces is the right side of history . The SNP really hate women it seems . And as you the tax payers money wasted on this issue which was decided by the Supreme Court earlier this year is a disgrace . Dark forces operate at the very heart of the Scottish Govt . It’s that women prisoners who have more than likely have been abused by men are then traumatised by having men in their safe spaces . Not only sickening , it’s vengeful and vindictive 

Not powerful. Just shout very loud.

Sometimes the very silent majority really need to shout back.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Not powerful. Just shout very loud.

Sometimes the very silent majority really need to shout back.

Yes you’re right John , not “ powerful “ just bullied and emotionally blackmailed the SG to give into their demands for “ equality “ . Classic text book stuff from them and their acolytes . 

[Libertarian]

On 04/11/2025 at 14:49, OTT said:

 

Yep. I don't know how Unionists look around at the embarrassment of riches we have, then contrast it with the pretty shitty standard of living, and then come to the conclusion we're well served within the Union. Its insanity. If anyone is unclear on the transfer of wealth out of Scotland, look at London before and after the discovery of oil (remind me how much oil is in English territorial waters?), or consider the absence of a Scottish Stock exchange (funny how close together these things are....)

 

I know you're not a McAlpine enthusiast, but even if you don't like him, broken clocks etc. It looks the start of a very solid argument to support some of the financial issues which dominate the Independence debate. I'd certainly be interested to know where Scotland should be sitting in this graph. The only thing unique about Scotland versus all of these other countries, is that we're in a Union, yet sit bottom of the pile. Doesn't lend itself to the idea of our resources being well managed by London at all. 

You are absolutely correct. Scotland’s vast natural resources have been exploited and wasted by a British state which still believes itself to be a superpower and which has allowed the spivs in the city of London to cream off huge profits for themselves while everyone (Scots, English,  Welsh & Northern Irish) have become progressively poorer.  When (not if) Scotland regains her independence,  this will smash the whole rotten structure of the UK to pieces,  benefiting everyone in these islands. 

[lost in space]

14 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

You are absolutely correct. Scotland’s vast natural resources have been exploited and wasted by a British state which still believes itself to be a superpower and which has allowed the spivs in the city of London to cream off huge profits for themselves while everyone (Scots, English,  Welsh & Northern Irish) have become progressively poorer.  When (not if) Scotland regains her independence,  this will smash the whole rotten structure of the UK to pieces,  benefiting everyone in these islands. 

You seem to have different opinions on freedom and independence on different threads.

You want Scotland to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although Scots don't want that) - while you don't want Ukraine to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although Ukrainians DO want to be free).

 

Do you not believe in democracy and the will of the people???

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, lost in space said:

You seem to have different opinions on freedom and independence on different threads.

You want Scotland to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although many Scots don't want that) - while you don't want Ukraine to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although Ukrainians DO want to be free).

 

Do you not believe in democracy and the will of the people???

[lost in space]

22 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

It's OK Konrad, I know you don't believe in democracy either.😆

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, lost in space said:

It's OK Konrad, I know you don't believe in democracy either.😆

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

You are absolutely correct. Scotland’s vast natural resources have been exploited and wasted by a British state which still believes itself to be a superpower and which has allowed the spivs in the city of London to cream off huge profits for themselves while everyone (Scots, English,  Welsh & Northern Irish) have become progressively poorer.  When (not if) Scotland regains her independence,  this will smash the whole rotten structure of the UK to pieces,  benefiting everyone in these islands. 

 

I really think it will. I'm ardently in support of Scottish Independence, but that doesn't mean I don't want a close relationship with England, Wales & Ireland. I think its in all of our interests as close neighbours that some sort of common policies are pursued, but it needs to be coming from a position of equals. The UK as things stand (and will continue to be) isn't democratic enough, and far too anglo-centric. I think the breakup of the Union would be ultimately beneficial to all of the nations. It might even humble England a bit, and force the UK PM to adopt a more collaborative approach with the nations that make up the British isles. 

 

I think when we do get our Independence, short-medium term, we need to be joining EFTA. SNP folks don't like this, but EU membership is a tall order riddled with arguments that put you on the backfoot - deficits and so forth. EFTA membership can be achieved very, very quickly and comes with the benefit of a free trade agreement with the rUK. I believe that about 2/3rds of our trade is with the rUK, so its a circle that the SNP will struggle to square. 

[lost in space]

4 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I really think it will. I'm ardently in support of Scottish Independence, but that doesn't mean I don't want a close relationship with England, Wales & Ireland. I think its in all of our interests as close neighbours that some sort of common policies are pursued, but it needs to be coming from a position of equals. The UK as things stand (and will continue to be) isn't democratic enough, and far too anglo-centric. I think the breakup of the Union would be ultimately beneficial to all of the nations. It might even humble England a bit, and force the UK PM to adopt a more collaborative approach with the nations that make up the British isles. 

 

I think when we do get our Independence, short-medium term, we need to be joining EFTA. SNP folks don't like this, but EU membership is a tall order riddled with arguments that put you on the backfoot - deficits and so forth. EFTA membership can be achieved very, very quickly and comes with the benefit of a free trade agreement with the rUK. I believe that about 2/3rds of our trade is with the rUK, so its a circle that the SNP will struggle to square. 

OTT - you have suggested EFTA before and I agreed then and now that it would be a good way forward in the hugely unlikely event of Indy.

Why do the SNP not like this? Is it because they think entrance to the EU would be better; but don't want to admit that it would not be easy to join the EU?

(Genuine question).

[OTT]

12 minutes ago, lost in space said:

OTT - you have suggested EFTA before and I agreed then and now that it would be a good way forward in the hugely unlikely event of Indy.

Why do the SNP not like this? Is it because they think entrance to the EU would be better; but don't want to admit that it would not be easy to join the EU?

(Genuine question).

 

The EFTA angle is sort of Alex Salmonds Alba party brainchild. Honestly, I think part of it is that anything that Alex Salmond said post-2017 is heresy amongst the bigwigs at the SNP. The other side of it is that I think the EU has name recognition amongst voters. If you're not that engaged with politics and someone said EFTA, you may have a difficult time recognising what it is (and that it is distinct from the EU). 

 

I've felt for a long time that the SNP haven't advanced the arguments of 2014, so are still relying on stuff like the EU to win votes, rather than modernising the arguments and taking account of the impact of Brexit on these sorts of issues. Times change, so too do the arguments. 

 

I think EFTA ticks all of the boxes that we need, and crucially takes a pragmatic view of our post-Indy relationship with the rUK. You cannot escape the reality that we currently do around 60%-2/3rds of our trade with the rUK. Short term, moving into an EU aligned body that has a free trade deal with the rUK AND has many of the benefits of EU membership is a win/win, and would be tougher for Unionists to argue against. A pragmatic solution that nips talk about deficits in the bud. 

[AyrJambo]

 

An interesting article in two parts on what actually happened in 1707 - annexation

 

The truth is beginning to be disseminated...

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-the-uk-exists-because

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-why-and-how

[Thunder and Lightning]

50 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

An interesting article in two parts on what actually happened in 1707 - annexation

 

The truth is beginning to be disseminated...

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-the-uk-exists-because

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-why-and-how

Seems legit. I'm convinced. 

[Cruyff]

52 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

An interesting article in two parts on what actually happened in 1707 - annexation

 

The truth is beginning to be disseminated...

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-the-uk-exists-because

 

https://angrypict.substack.com/p/annexation-why-and-how

Because that makes a difference in 2025. 

[Libertarian]

5 hours ago, lost in space said:

You seem to have different opinions on freedom and independence on different threads.

You want Scotland to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although Scots don't want that) - while you don't want Ukraine to be "free" of its largest neighbour (although Ukrainians DO want to be free).

 

Do you not believe in democracy and the will of the people???

I hate to point this out 'again ' but Ukraine is not a democracy and the Ukrainian people have been sacrificed by certain western politicians who thought that they could use Ukraine to destroy Russia. There's another thread on this however just to remind you that Ukraine is now an authoritarian,  police state where political opposition is ruthlessly put down.  A couple of points to ponder if the Ukrainian people are so keen to fight why is there 300,000 cases of desertion from the Ukrainian military going through the courts in Kiev? And why does Zelensky have press gang thugs dragging ordinary guys off the street?

[Libertarian]

4 hours ago, lost in space said:

OTT - you have suggested EFTA before and I agreed then and now that it would be a good way forward in the hugely unlikely event of Indy.

Why do the SNP not like this? Is it because they think entrance to the EU would be better; but don't want to admit that it would not be easy to join the EU?

(Genuine question).

Joining the EU could also mean a hard border with England, while membership of EFTA would allow Scotland access to the EU market while keeping an open border with England. 

[Libertarian]

5 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I really think it will. I'm ardently in support of Scottish Independence, but that doesn't mean I don't want a close relationship with England, Wales & Ireland. I think its in all of our interests as close neighbours that some sort of common policies are pursued, but it needs to be coming from a position of equals. The UK as things stand (and will continue to be) isn't democratic enough, and far too anglo-centric. I think the breakup of the Union would be ultimately beneficial to all of the nations. It might even humble England a bit, and force the UK PM to adopt a more collaborative approach with the nations that make up the British isles. 

 

I think when we do get our Independence, short-medium term, we need to be joining EFTA. SNP folks don't like this, but EU membership is a tall order riddled with arguments that put you on the backfoot - deficits and so forth. EFTA membership can be achieved very, very quickly and comes with the benefit of a free trade agreement with the rUK. I believe that about 2/3rds of our trade is with the rUK, so its a circle that the SNP will struggle to square. 

Completely agree. My understanding is that while the SNP position is to rejoin the EU, Alba would prefer Scotland to join EFTA.

[lost in space]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

I hate to point this out 'again ' but Ukraine is not a democracy and the Ukrainian people have been sacrificed by certain western politicians who thought that they could use Ukraine to destroy Russia. There's another thread on this however just to remind you that Ukraine is now an authoritarian,  police state where political opposition is ruthlessly put down.  A couple of points to ponder if the Ukrainian people are so keen to fight why is there 300,000 cases of desertion from the Ukrainian military going through the courts in Kiev? And why does Zelensky have press gang thugs dragging ordinary guys off the street?

We are not going to agree, of course and I dont want to again move the discussion on to Ukraine on this thread.  I only mentioned it to show your contradictory views. 

(Ukraine is (was before the invasion) a democracy. There is desertion on both sides. "ordinary guys"???)

[lost in space]

10 hours ago, OTT said:

 

The EFTA angle is sort of Alex Salmonds Alba party brainchild. Honestly, I think part of it is that anything that Alex Salmond said post-2017 is heresy amongst the bigwigs at the SNP. The other side of it is that I think the EU has name recognition amongst voters. If you're not that engaged with politics and someone said EFTA, you may have a difficult time recognising what it is (and that it is distinct from the EU). 

 

I've felt for a long time that the SNP haven't advanced the arguments of 2014, so are still relying on stuff like the EU to win votes, rather than modernising the arguments and taking account of the impact of Brexit on these sorts of issues. Times change, so too do the arguments. 

 

I think EFTA ticks all of the boxes that we need, and crucially takes a pragmatic view of our post-Indy relationship with the rUK. You cannot escape the reality that we currently do around 60%-2/3rds of our trade with the rUK. Short term, moving into an EU aligned body that has a free trade deal with the rUK AND has many of the benefits of EU membership is a win/win, and would be tougher for Unionists to argue against. A pragmatic solution that nips talk about deficits in the bud. 

Thanks for your answer. I agree.

[Gundermann]

 

[XB52]

6 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Maybe the tide is turning our way. Still a worrying amount of reform votes

[John Findlay]

I think the most worrying stat of the lot was the 27.3% turnout. Just over a quarter of those eligible to vote, did so.

[manaliveits105]

SNP to fight in court to allow trans criminals to be housed in women’s prisons.

Bye bye Indy. 

Ach well the coming tax increases will pay for it ay 

 

 

 

[lost in space]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

Maybe the tide is turning our way. Still a worrying amount of reform votes

I think it was King Canute who thought that the tide would turn his way.

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

I think the most worrying stat of the lot was the 27.3% turnout. Just over a quarter of those eligible to vote, did so.

At least they voted rather than spoiling their ballot... 

 

 

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, XB52 said:

Maybe the tide is turning our way. Still a worrying amount of reform votes

 

Second pref votes are interesting. A significant number of Refuks voted SNP as 2nd choice. With the others, it seems as if the majority voted SNP to keep Reform out. Refuk and Tories like butt cheeks though.

 

 

[Libertarian]

25 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Second pref votes are interesting. A significant number of Refuks voted SNP as 2nd choice. With the others, it seems as if the majority voted SNP to keep Reform out. Refuk and Tories like butt cheeks though.

 

 

That's really interesting.  It's good to see that those who gave their 1st preference to the SNP gave their 2nd vote to Alba. 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

At least they voted rather than spoiling their ballot... 

 

 

Well 72.7% in affect  did exactly that........😉

Edited November 7 by John Findlay

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Well 72.7% in affect  did exactly that........😉

Fair

[JamboGlen]

On 07/11/2025 at 11:37, XB52 said:

Maybe the tide is turning our way. Still a worrying amount of reform votes

I'm also concerned we still have as many idiots voting SNP.