Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Libertarian]

9 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I know that, you know that, but it's still a question of persuading people who are inherently conservative (with a small c) into taking the step towards independence. It should be done carefully, systematically, persuasively, evidentially, rather than launching ourselves waving claymores forwards over the Culloden moorland. Unless something creates systemic change, such as Farage and Reform getting into power in the UK, let's take our time and continue building. And if Reform do take over the running of the country, let's be ready to mobilise a new push for independence in a way in which the SNP didn't when they dropped the ball after Brexit. 

I'm sure I heard a very similar argument in 2016 when Scotland voted to remain in the EU but we were still taken out.  The SNP had 56 out of 59 MP's along with a majority in the Scottish Parliament and the SNP sat on their hands and did nothing.  

It's highly likely that Reform will form the next Westminster government.  Surely it would be better to have a Scottish Parliament with over 100 independence supporting MSP's to ensure that we get independence this time. 

Edited October 1 by Libertarian

[lost in space]

4 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

Possibly,  however for anyone who really wants to achieve independence then the best strategy is to split your vote between the constituency and the list.  Personally, I can't stand the SNP but I will hold my nose and vote for them in the constituency and vote Alba on the list as I believe that without independence Scotland and the UK  are declining into poverty and hardship. 

Your idea can't work due to the 3 main   priorities of the SNP and its MSPs - self preservation, self-interest and self-advancement

No way are they going to accept your idea.

Yes, SNP want a referendum- but not by risking their own position.

[Libertarian]

Just now, lost in space said:

Your idea can't work due to the 3 main   priorities of the SNP and its MSPs - self preservation, self-interest and self-advancement

No way are they going to accept your idea.

Yes, SNP want a referendum- but not by risking their own position.

But it's not up to the SNP is it? It's up to the Independence supporting electorate.  You are absolutely correct though as the SNP are still wanting both votes SNP when they know that both votes SNP will definitely result in a much larger number of Unionist MSP's being elected on the list. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

25 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Hopefully not many. I would assume that most of the transgender rights folk are now firmly ensconced in the Greens camp.

well the Greens have been very clear if you dont agree with gender nonsense then dont vote for them. Very clear. They may pick up some from the SNP but there is still a powerful group entrenched in this issue in the SNP. 

22 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I think Judy may have meant some SNP voters being reticent to vote Alba as their list vote because of gender-belief reasons.

I also think their hatred of Alex Salmond and their cult like devotion to Sturgeon is also a barrier to them even considering Alba too

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

I'm sure I heard a very similar argument in 2016 when Scotland voted to remain in the EU but we were still taken out.  The SNP had 56 out of 59 MP's along with a majority in the Scottish Parliament and the SNP sat on their hands and did nothing.  

It's highly likely that Reform will form the next Westminster government.  Surely it would be better to have a Scottish Parliament with over 100 independence supporting MSP's to ensure that we get independence this time. 

 

That's exactly what I said. The SNP dropped the ball after Brexit in not strongly pushing for independence based on the systemic change caused by the UK's withdrawal from the EU. Did you not read what I wrote?

[Libertarian]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

That's exactly what I said. The SNP dropped the ball after Brexit in not strongly pushing for independence based on the systemic change caused by the UK's withdrawal from the EU. Did you not read what I wrote?

That's when I left the SNP,  as it finally became clear to me that the SNP would never lead Scotland to independence.  I actually went into my local branch and told them.  It didn't make me very popular with them,  especially when I told them that they should be throwing the furniture about and that Sturgeon was a phoney. However it was and still is my opinion. 

[redjambo]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

well the Greens have been very clear if you dont agree with gender nonsense then dont vote for them. Very clear. They may pick up some from the SNP but there is still a powerful group entrenched in this issue in the SNP. 

I also think their hatred of Alex Salmond and their cult like devotion to Sturgeon is also a barrier to them even considering Alba too

 

I think that you may be close to the truth as to the opinions of a residual rump in the SNP party itself, but remember that it's not just the party, it's the entire electorate who will be voting, or those who choose to do so anyway (I'm sure John will spoil his vote again and remind us of it now and again). It is the voters who will be persuaded, or not, to cast their list vote for Alba, they're far less motivated by trans-inclusion and Salmond-hating, and I'm hoping that the arguments in favour of doing so will be promoted to such an extent that they gain reasonable momentum.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Libertarian said:

That's when I left the SNP,  as it finally became clear to me that the SNP would never lead Scotland to independence.  I actually went into my local branch and told them.  It didn't make me very popular with them,  especially when I told them that they should be throwing the furniture about and that Sturgeon was a phoney. However it was and still is my opinion. 

 

Good. If I had been a member, I could well have done the same.

[Hagar the Horrible]

13 hours ago, Libertarian said:

That's when I left the SNP,  as it finally became clear to me that the SNP would never lead Scotland to independence.  I actually went into my local branch and told them.  It didn't make me very popular with them,  especially when I told them that they should be throwing the furniture about and that Sturgeon was a phoney. However it was and still is my opinion. 

To continue on with this debate, it wasn't just Brexit, but Boris and Truss, never shifted the needle at all, , But Sturgeon made some mild saber rattling and continued with divisive grievance politics. That just made everybody dig their heels in all the more, when it not up to the Unionist to convince the SNP that the status quo is best, but the Independence movement to convince those who voted NO to change their minds and the best way of doing that is to answer and evidence how it WILL work, not how they hope it will.  She should have used that gift to push an agenda based on grown up policies, and reasoning, that proved she and the top branch wanted to remain in the fight rather than get what they actually want.  That just proved beyond a doubt that the fanatic cannot win because they do always harbour a secret doubt!!!!!!

 

To be clear the SNP are still fighting trying to die on the hill of Trans right issues.  Such as Charles Gray refused to say a Pregnant woman, it was a pregnant person.  Gilruth still wont issue guidance to schools on where you go for a Barry White, she still wont be binary on the matter it is still a Grey area, She wants local authorities to make the decision on policies, who in turn have shifted that responsibilities to the Heads, so in essence there would  be about 2500 varying policies, not 1 national one.

 

Voting for say the SNP because you want Independence and use you second vote for say the green because they also want independence,   will yes put 2 MSPs with INDY leaning in power, but when it comes down to an actual referendum then you dont get 2 votes, its the same bleeding vote.  Having a small majority at Holyrood is not a massive YES vote.  besides the polls can and will change, and people will get tired of the SNP sooner or later.

 

But how about this, voting for the SNP is a wasted vote for Indy, either all go for Alba or nothing.  A vote for the SNP and getting indy will also be a vote for the Greens, and it will come down to a split for gender politics that wont agree what a woman is, and the other side who just want to talk about Indy.  This will split the indy vote.  and who wants to live in a Utopia that is driven by the Greens.

 

Its a mess, but perhaps a manifesto from  the SNP will help us decide, taking into account the rise of the right, being sensitive but not subversive to those who want an alternative lifestyle.  But most importantly answer the HOW it will work, and dont use Reform as a big bad scary thing.  because that is temporary.  List a set of priorities and how they will be fixed,  Not say it will be all fixed and wonderful in a New Scotia...do it now and prove it.

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

To continue on with this debate, it wasn't just Brexit, but Boris and Truss, never shifted the needle at all, , But Sturgeon made some mild saber rattling and continued with divisive grievance politics. That just made everybody dig their heels in all the more, when it not up to the Unionist to convince the SNP that the status quo is best, but the Independence movement to convince those who voted NO to change their minds and the best way of doing that is to answer and evidence how it WILL work, not how they hope it will.  She should have used that gift to push an agenda based on grown up policies, and reasoning, that proved she and the top branch wanted to remain in the fight rather than get what they actually want.  That just proved beyond a doubt that the fanatic cannot win because they do always harbour a secret doubt!!!!!!

 

To be clear the SNP are still fighting trying to die on the hill of Trans right issues.  Such as Charles Gray refused to say a Pregnant woman, it was a pregnant person.  Gilruth still wont issue guidance to schools on where you go for a Barry White, she still wont be binary on the matter it is still a Grey area, She wants local authorities to make the decision on policies, who in turn have shifted that responsibilities to the Heads, so in essence there would  be about 2500 varying policies, not 1 national one.

 

Voting for say the SNP because you want Independence and use you second vote for say the green because they also want independence,   will yes put 2 MSPs with INDY leaning in power, but when it comes down to an actual referendum then you dont get 2 votes, its the same bleeding vote.  Having a small majority at Holyrood is not a massive YES vote.  besides the polls can and will change, and people will get tired of the SNP sooner or later.

 

But how about this, voting for the SNP is a wasted vote for Indy, either all go for Alba or nothing.  A vote for the SNP and getting indy will also be a vote for the Greens, and it will come down to a split for gender politics that wont agree what a woman is, and the other side who just want to talk about Indy.  This will split the indy vote.  and who wants to live in a Utopia that is driven by the Greens.

 

Its a mess, but perhaps a manifesto from  the SNP will help us decide, taking into account the rise of the right, being sensitive but not subversive to those who want an alternative lifestyle.  But most importantly answer the HOW it will work, and dont use Reform as a big bad scary thing.  because that is temporary.  List a set of priorities and how they will be fixed,  Not say it will be all fixed and wonderful in a New Scotia...do it now and prove it.

Perfectly agree.  At the next referendum it'll be important to ensure that the SNP do not run the show

[lost in space]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

To continue on with this debate, it wasn't just Brexit, but Boris and Truss, never shifted the needle at all, , But Sturgeon made some mild saber rattling and continued with divisive grievance politics. That just made everybody dig their heels in all the more, when it not up to the Unionist to convince the SNP that the status quo is best, but the Independence movement to convince those who voted NO to change their minds and the best way of doing that is to answer and evidence how it WILL work, not how they hope it will.  She should have used that gift to push an agenda based on grown up policies, and reasoning, that proved she and the top branch wanted to remain in the fight rather than get what they actually want.  That just proved beyond a doubt that the fanatic cannot win because they do always harbour a secret doubt!!!!!!

 

To be clear the SNP are still fighting trying to die on the hill of Trans right issues.  Such as Charles Gray refused to say a Pregnant woman, it was a pregnant person.  Gilruth still wont issue guidance to schools on where you go for a Barry White, she still wont be binary on the matter it is still a Grey area, She wants local authorities to make the decision on policies, who in turn have shifted that responsibilities to the Heads, so in essence there would  be about 2500 varying policies, not 1 national one.

 

Voting for say the SNP because you want Independence and use you second vote for say the green because they also want independence,   will yes put 2 MSPs with INDY leaning in power, but when it comes down to an actual referendum then you dont get 2 votes, its the same bleeding vote.  Having a small majority at Holyrood is not a massive YES vote.  besides the polls can and will change, and people will get tired of the SNP sooner or later.

 

But how about this, voting for the SNP is a wasted vote for Indy, either all go for Alba or nothing.  A vote for the SNP and getting indy will also be a vote for the Greens, and it will come down to a split for gender politics that wont agree what a woman is, and the other side who just want to talk about Indy.  This will split the indy vote.  and who wants to live in a Utopia that is driven by the Greens.

 

Its a mess, but perhaps a manifesto from  the SNP will help us decide, taking into account the rise of the right, being sensitive but not subversive to those who want an alternative lifestyle.  But most importantly answer the HOW it will work, and dont use Reform as a big bad scary thing.  because that is temporary.  List a set of priorities and how they will be fixed,  Not say it will be all fixed and wonderful in a New Scotia...do it now and prove it.

Talking of Jenny Gilruth - she has to be the worst minister in Scotland. She talks and talks but never says anything. I think she just totally confuses interviewers by non-stop talking - mostly not on the topic of ANY question. I actually expect the interviewer to ask "what was the question I asked again, Ive forgotten?"

I did think Angela Constance was the worst as she can hardly string a sentence together - but Gilruth is worse. Maybe has to go home to ask Kezia what she thinks, of course.

[OTT]

11 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

To continue on with this debate, it wasn't just Brexit, but Boris and Truss, never shifted the needle at all, , But Sturgeon made some mild saber rattling and continued with divisive grievance politics. That just made everybody dig their heels in all the more, when it not up to the Unionist to convince the SNP that the status quo is best, but the Independence movement to convince those who voted NO to change their minds and the best way of doing that is to answer and evidence how it WILL work, not how they hope it will.  She should have used that gift to push an agenda based on grown up policies, and reasoning, that proved she and the top branch wanted to remain in the fight rather than get what they actually want.  That just proved beyond a doubt that the fanatic cannot win because they do always harbour a secret doubt!!!!!!

 

To be clear the SNP are still fighting trying to die on the hill of Trans right issues.  Such as Charles Gray refused to say a Pregnant woman, it was a pregnant person.  Gilruth still wont issue guidance to schools on where you go for a Barry White, she still wont be binary on the matter it is still a Grey area, She wants local authorities to make the decision on policies, who in turn have shifted that responsibilities to the Heads, so in essence there would  be about 2500 varying policies, not 1 national one.

 

Voting for say the SNP because you want Independence and use you second vote for say the green because they also want independence,   will yes put 2 MSPs with INDY leaning in power, but when it comes down to an actual referendum then you dont get 2 votes, its the same bleeding vote.  Having a small majority at Holyrood is not a massive YES vote.  besides the polls can and will change, and people will get tired of the SNP sooner or later.

 

But how about this, voting for the SNP is a wasted vote for Indy, either all go for Alba or nothing.  A vote for the SNP and getting indy will also be a vote for the Greens, and it will come down to a split for gender politics that wont agree what a woman is, and the other side who just want to talk about Indy.  This will split the indy vote.  and who wants to live in a Utopia that is driven by the Greens.

 

Its a mess, but perhaps a manifesto from  the SNP will help us decide, taking into account the rise of the right, being sensitive but not subversive to those who want an alternative lifestyle.  But most importantly answer the HOW it will work, and dont use Reform as a big bad scary thing.  because that is temporary.  List a set of priorities and how they will be fixed,  Not say it will be all fixed and wonderful in a New Scotia...do it now and prove it.

 

The SNP badly need to abandon the trans cause. 

 

Its a poisoned chalice, but the path Sturgeon has set them on has left them damned if they do, damned if they don't. 

 

If Swinney backtracks on the GRA, vocal TRA types go nuts and accuse him of being some kind of Nazi (they love a Nazi insult). The Greens have realigned their party to be trans issues first, so I think he'd lose them as fair weather allies too. Ironically, it makes the argument for the importance of getting Alba into Parliament in 2026. Opposition, but not constitutional opposition, and could likely provide support on a case by case basis. Not ideologically driven in the same way the greens are, or the Unionists are - since Alba & the SNP agree constitutionally, so disagreement would be purely policy based (which IMO would be good for the Parliament).  

 

If Swinney doesn't backtrack, then public confidence continues to be eroded because this trans stuff is indefensible. Folk support it up to the point of the true impact of what Self ID means becomes clear. When you start talking about biological men in womens toilets, changing rooms and so forth, it gets very uncomfortable and most sane people want to at least take a breath and pause, and talk. But sadly, throughout the GRA Sturgeon said opponents with legitimate issues concerns were "not valid", and we saw this "no debate" culture become pretty ingrained into the TRA movement. So talking isn't possible.

 

The other thing is, that the GRA has done almost irreparable damage to the SNP's reputation. I don't think they'll be able to clean up their image whilst Sturgeons cronies remain in government - this is your Shona Robison, Shirley Ann Somerville, Jenny Gilruth, Kaukab Stewart, Mhairi McAllan and even Swinney himself. But unfortunately, competent ministers like Michelle Thomson & Kate Forbes are stepping down, so I'm unclear on who actually comes in to fix this mess. 

 

I think Stephen Flynn will be a welcome sight at Holyrood. With Forbes stepping down, Flynn has a pretty clear run at leadership now and his performances at PMQs has been extremely strong - so I suspect he would make a formidable First Minister. Coupled with that, I think he might have an eye for talent/ spotting very replaceable MSPs and getting rid, as he seemed to be trying to ahead of 2026.

[JudyJudyJudy]

44 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

The SNP badly need to abandon the trans cause. 

 

Its a poisoned chalice, but the path Sturgeon has set them on has left them damned if they do, damned if they don't. 

 

If Swinney backtracks on the GRA, vocal TRA types go nuts and accuse him of being some kind of Nazi (they love a Nazi insult). The Greens have realigned their party to be trans issues first, so I think he'd lose them as fair weather allies too. Ironically, it makes the argument for the importance of getting Alba into Parliament in 2026. Opposition, but not constitutional opposition, and could likely provide support on a case by case basis. Not ideologically driven in the same way the greens are, or the Unionists are - since Alba & the SNP agree constitutionally, so disagreement would be purely policy based (which IMO would be good for the Parliament).  

 

If Swinney doesn't backtrack, then public confidence continues to be eroded because this trans stuff is indefensible. Folk support it up to the point of the true impact of what Self ID means becomes clear. When you start talking about biological men in womens toilets, changing rooms and so forth, it gets very uncomfortable and most sane people want to at least take a breath and pause, and talk. But sadly, throughout the GRA Sturgeon said opponents with legitimate issues concerns were "not valid", and we saw this "no debate" culture become pretty ingrained into the TRA movement. So talking isn't possible.

 

The other thing is, that the GRA has done almost irreparable damage to the SNP's reputation. I don't think they'll be able to clean up their image whilst Sturgeons cronies remain in government - this is your Shona Robison, Shirley Ann Somerville, Jenny Gilruth, Kaukab Stewart, Mhairi McAllan and even Swinney himself. But unfortunately, competent ministers like Michelle Thomson & Kate Forbes are stepping down, so I'm unclear on who actually comes in to fix this mess. 

 

I think Stephen Flynn will be a welcome sight at Holyrood. With Forbes stepping down, Flynn has a pretty clear run at leadership now and his performances at PMQs has been extremely strong - so I suspect he would make a formidable First Minister. Coupled with that, I think he might have an eye for talent/ spotting very replaceable MSPs and getting rid, as he seemed to be trying to ahead of 2026.

They are still delaying the supreme court judgement earlier this year. They are literraly turning a blind eye to the law. Its the hill they will die on yet again. 

[OTT]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

They are still delaying the supreme court judgement earlier this year. They are literraly turning a blind eye to the law. Its the hill they will die on yet again. 

 

Yep. 

 

I don't doubt I sound unhinged when I rage about Sturgeon, but every problem the SNP currently face, can be traced directly back to Nicola Sturgeon. 

 

She set the SNP on this collision course with reality on gender rights. There isn't a sweeping brush big enough to clean up the mess this is creating. 

 

This gender stuff has interfered with, and IMO stymied the cause of Independence. Its damaged the credibility of the main political vehicle to achieving Independence, and created needless fracture and discontent. 

 

Alex Salmond laid the ground work for the delivery of Independence - do the damn day job right, and your opponents criticism will look ridiculous. As things stand, so much government time has been wasted on nonsense that delivering simple things like ferrys, getting waiting lists down, and address bread and butter issues has fallen by the wayside. IMO successful government is about delivering core needs first and foremost. Once that is done, then look at flagship policies. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, OTT said:

This gender stuff has interfered with, and IMO stymied the cause of Independence. Its damaged the credibility of the main political vehicle to achieving Independence, and created needless fracture and discontent.

Yes and the reason for this was politicians literraly gaslighting the population about gender identity. Isla Bryson the most infamous example. People do not want to be told WHAT to beleive when they know it is not true, a lie and against biology and science and good old fashioned common sense. Sturgeon et al tied their mast to this ludicrious issue and have never had the humilty or honesty to admit they got it wrong big time. Its evidenced today with all her acolytes like that hideous Jenny Gilruith who would not give a clear answer in the parliament about the bathroom issues in schools. 

Edited October 2 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yep. 

 

I don't doubt I sound unhinged when I rage about Sturgeon, but every problem the SNP currently face, can be traced directly back to Nicola Sturgeon. 

 

She set the SNP on this collision course with reality on gender rights. There isn't a sweeping brush big enough to clean up the mess this is creating. 

 

This gender stuff has interfered with, and IMO stymied the cause of Independence. Its damaged the credibility of the main political vehicle to achieving Independence, and created needless fracture and discontent. 

 

Alex Salmond laid the ground work for the delivery of Independence - do the damn day job right, and your opponents criticism will look ridiculous. As things stand, so much government time has been wasted on nonsense that delivering simple things like ferrys, getting waiting lists down, and address bread and butter issues has fallen by the wayside. IMO successful government is about delivering core needs first and foremost. Once that is done, then look at flagship policies. 

THIS

[Hagar the Horrible]

20 hours ago, lost in space said:

Talking of Jenny Gilruth - she has to be the worst minister in Scotland. She talks and talks but never says anything. I think she just totally confuses interviewers by non-stop talking - mostly not on the topic of ANY question. I actually expect the interviewer to ask "what was the question I asked again, Ive forgotten?"

I did think Angela Constance was the worst as she can hardly string a sentence together - but Gilruth is worse. Maybe has to go home to ask Kezia what she thinks, of course.

Even Gray still wanted Doctors to say when examining a man in a dress, if they might be pregnant.  He still wont admit that is ludicrous.  Greer wants his members to put trans rights first,  so much for the environment,  reversing that as a priority is now like trying to do a hand break turn of an oil tanker in a canal

 

I hope Alba dont start with progressive politics, but work on getting the day job right,  graps the issues that matter.  OK it is putting the Indy movement back 20 years, but Swinney wants the status quo to remain.  The man is scared of winning

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Hagar the Horrible said:

hope Alba dont start with progressive politics, but work on getting

They won’t mate . There’s nothing “ progressive “ about the SNP or Greens obsession with gender nonsense . They thought it might be a vote winner or they are on “ the right side of history “ . Wrong on both accounts . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

ALBA are only indy party which may be able to recruit / encourage former Indy supporters back into the fold 

[Gundermann]

11 hours ago, OTT said:

 

The SNP badly need to abandon the trans cause. 

 

Its a poisoned chalice, but the path Sturgeon has set them on has left them damned if they do, damned if they don't. 

 

If Swinney backtracks on the GRA, vocal TRA types go nuts and accuse him of being some kind of Nazi (they love a Nazi insult). The Greens have realigned their party to be trans issues first, so I think he'd lose them as fair weather allies too. Ironically, it makes the argument for the importance of getting Alba into Parliament in 2026. Opposition, but not constitutional opposition, and could likely provide support on a case by case basis. Not ideologically driven in the same way the greens are, or the Unionists are - since Alba & the SNP agree constitutionally, so disagreement would be purely policy based (which IMO would be good for the Parliament).  

 

If Swinney doesn't backtrack, then public confidence continues to be eroded because this trans stuff is indefensible. Folk support it up to the point of the true impact of what Self ID means becomes clear. When you start talking about biological men in womens toilets, changing rooms and so forth, it gets very uncomfortable and most sane people want to at least take a breath and pause, and talk. But sadly, throughout the GRA Sturgeon said opponents with legitimate issues concerns were "not valid", and we saw this "no debate" culture become pretty ingrained into the TRA movement. So talking isn't possible.

 

The other thing is, that the GRA has done almost irreparable damage to the SNP's reputation. I don't think they'll be able to clean up their image whilst Sturgeons cronies remain in government - this is your Shona Robison, Shirley Ann Somerville, Jenny Gilruth, Kaukab Stewart, Mhairi McAllan and even Swinney himself. But unfortunately, competent ministers like Michelle Thomson & Kate Forbes are stepping down, so I'm unclear on who actually comes in to fix this mess. 

 

I think Stephen Flynn will be a welcome sight at Holyrood. With Forbes stepping down, Flynn has a pretty clear run at leadership now and his performances at PMQs has been extremely strong - so I suspect he would make a formidable First Minister. Coupled with that, I think he might have an eye for talent/ spotting very replaceable MSPs and getting rid, as he seemed to be trying to ahead of 2026.

 

The 'trans issue' has not apparently harmed the SNP or the Greens, if repeated polls are to be believed. Nor has support for Indy been affected. Despite all the froth, and there has been a lot of it whether here or in the Daily Heil, hardly anyone is bothered either way about it. People's concerns remain to be the cost of living, the NHS, education, safety and housing. The SNP can be attacked for performances on some of those where they have all or limited responsibilty for (equally, despite that, Scotland seems to be doing better than the other 3 nations) but I don't see who would do better.

 

Agree re Flynn though I thought Swinney's performance, or what I heard of it on the news, sounded pretty strong yesterday.

[lost in space]

6 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The 'trans issue' has not apparently harmed the SNP or the Greens, if repeated polls are to be believed. Nor has support for Indy been affected. Despite all the froth, and there has been a lot of it whether here or in the Daily Heil, hardly anyone is bothered either way about it. People's concerns remain to be the cost of living, the NHS, education, safety and housing. The SNP can be attacked for performances on some of those where they have all or limited responsibilty for (equally, despite that, Scotland seems to be doing better than the other 3 nations) but I don't see who would do better.

 

Agree re Flynn though I thought Swinney's performance, or what I heard of it on the news, sounded pretty strong yesterday.

I mostly agree that the SNP have not been harmed by "trans" - or almost anything else - as most (as can be seen on here) are entrenched and will vote SNP/ALBA/Greens (for Indy) or any other party (against Indy). 

 

On the issues that you have listed - I dont see a great performance on any of these areas.  Re safety - Constance announcing ANOTHER 800 to be released from prison.  Starmer NOT doing well at Westminster and needs to improve before Holyrood election, for Labour to improve their vote.

 

Flynn - there is no doubt that he is a leader and that he is "smart".  He comes across as hugely arrogant though (as seen when he decided that he was going to be an MSP as well as an MP).  He will have learned from that but I doubt that he can change his personality and this will let him down in the future.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

anyone is bothered either way about it. People's

Only a man could say this . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I mostly agree that the SNP have not been harmed by "trans" - or almost anything else - as most (as can be seen on here) are entrenched and will vote SNP/ALBA/Greens (for Indy) or any other party (against Indy). 

 

On the issues that you have listed - I dont see a great performance on any of these areas.  Re safety - Constance announcing ANOTHER 800 to be released from prison.  Starmer NOT doing well at Westminster and needs to improve before Holyrood election, for Labour to improve their vote.

 

Flynn - there is no doubt that he is a leader and that he is "smart".  He comes across as hugely arrogant though (as seen when he decided that he was going to be an MSP as well as an MP).  He will have learned from that but I doubt that he can change his personality and this will let him down in the future.

 

 

Yes Flynn is arrogant and entitled . However he is a good orator . Mind you so was soap dodger Mhairi Black who couldn’t hack Westminster accountability 

[Hagar the Horrible]

23 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The 'trans issue' has not apparently harmed the SNP or the Greens, if repeated polls are to be believed. Nor has support for Indy been affected. Despite all the froth, and there has been a lot of it whether here or in the Daily Heil, hardly anyone is bothered either way about it. People's concerns remain to be the cost of living, the NHS, education, safety and housing. The SNP can be attacked for performances on some of those where they have all or limited responsibilty for (equally, despite that, Scotland seems to be doing better than the other 3 nations) but I don't see who would do better.

 

Agree re Flynn though I thought Swinney's performance, or what I heard of it on the news, sounded pretty strong yesterday.

But it did harm those whom are trans.  They had something bullied through in law, only for their rights to be balls.  Sturgeon went too far. She is solely at fault for any hurt they feel now.

[OTT]

55 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

The 'trans issue' has not apparently harmed the SNP or the Greens, if repeated polls are to be believed. Nor has support for Indy been affected. Despite all the froth, and there has been a lot of it whether here or in the Daily Heil, hardly anyone is bothered either way about it. People's concerns remain to be the cost of living, the NHS, education, safety and housing. The SNP can be attacked for performances on some of those where they have all or limited responsibilty for (equally, despite that, Scotland seems to be doing better than the other 3 nations) but I don't see who would do better.

 

Agree re Flynn though I thought Swinney's performance, or what I heard of it on the news, sounded pretty strong yesterday.

 

I still think it has. The SNP prior to the unveiling of the GRA were polling very, very strongly, and deteriorated gradually after bringing forward the GRA following by a sharp decline when the Isla Bryson situation came into the public sphere (also Andrew Miller -  the rapist butcher from the borders was around this time too).

 

Talk about the GRA dominated public debate (and in many ways still does). Polling impacts aren't felt immediately, but I think it absolutely has caused a drop in support and a disconnection between support for the SNP vs Support for Independence, which is now around somewhere between 15 and 20%. 

 

In the interests of fairness, I think its important to stress, I'm not solely blaming the GRA for the SNPs decline over the last few years, but I am saying it is a driving factor. Operation Branchform started in July of 2021, and so follows a similar time period for the GRA bill. Which lends itself to the idea that it wasn't one single thing.

 

The sight of having a First Minister declaring sincerely held concerns as "not valid" and subsequent failures by senior cabinet members to explain what a woman is has done damage to public trust, because when governments do things which runs contrary to common sense, and the justification falls short, the public can see through it IMO - if you asked folk without an agenda what a woman is, they'd point to your mum, sister, granny, aunt. The area we moved into because of the GRA felt dishonest, and when those championing it, aren't able to explain terms like that, it erodes trust. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I still think it has. The SNP prior to the unveiling of the GRA were polling very, very strongly, and deteriorated gradually after bringing forward the GRA following by a sharp decline when the Isla Bryson situation came into the public sphere (also Andrew Miller -  the rapist butcher from the borders was around this time too).

 

Talk about the GRA dominated public debate (and in many ways still does). Polling impacts aren't felt immediately, but I think it absolutely has caused a drop in support and a disconnection between support for the SNP vs Support for Independence, which is now around somewhere between 15 and 20%. 

 

In the interests of fairness, I think its important to stress, I'm not solely blaming the GRA for the SNPs decline over the last few years, but I am saying it is a driving factor. Operation Branchform started in July of 2021, and so follows a similar time period for the GRA bill. Which lends itself to the idea that it wasn't one single thing.

 

The sight of having a First Minister declaring sincerely held concerns as "not valid" and subsequent failures by senior cabinet members to explain what a woman is has done damage to public trust, because when governments do things which runs contrary to common sense, and the justification falls short, the public can see through it IMO - if you asked folk without an agenda what a woman is, they'd point to your mum, sister, granny, aunt. The area we moved into because of the GRA felt dishonest, and when those championing it, aren't able to explain terms like that, it erodes trust. 

 

 

Bravo 🙌 

[Dennis Denuto]

24 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I still think it has. The SNP prior to the unveiling of the GRA were polling very, very strongly, and deteriorated gradually after bringing forward the GRA following by a sharp decline when the Isla Bryson situation came into the public sphere (also Andrew Miller -  the rapist butcher from the borders was around this time too).

 

Talk about the GRA dominated public debate (and in many ways still does). Polling impacts aren't felt immediately, but I think it absolutely has caused a drop in support and a disconnection between support for the SNP vs Support for Independence, which is now around somewhere between 15 and 20%. 

 

In the interests of fairness, I think its important to stress, I'm not solely blaming the GRA for the SNPs decline over the last few years, but I am saying it is a driving factor. Operation Branchform started in July of 2021, and so follows a similar time period for the GRA bill. Which lends itself to the idea that it wasn't one single thing.

 

The sight of having a First Minister declaring sincerely held concerns as "not valid" and subsequent failures by senior cabinet members to explain what a woman is has done damage to public trust, because when governments do things which runs contrary to common sense, and the justification falls short, the public can see through it IMO - if you asked folk without an agenda what a woman is, they'd point to your mum, sister, granny, aunt. The area we moved into because of the GRA felt dishonest, and when those championing it, aren't able to explain terms like that, it erodes trust. 

 

 

I think the the march towards the UK general Election and the Drive to remove the Conservative Government had much larger effect on the Polling of the SNP than GRA or Operation Branchform  - I personally think they just gave ammunition to the move but they were marginal issues for most of Scotland and most of the SNP voters.  There were many factors at play but the big one was the UK GE imo.

[OTT]

34 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I think the the march towards the UK general Election and the Drive to remove the Conservative Government had much larger effect on the Polling of the SNP than GRA or Operation Branchform  - I personally think they just gave ammunition to the move but they were marginal issues for most of Scotland and most of the SNP voters.  There were many factors at play but the big one was the UK GE imo.

 

I'd agree with the drive to get the Tories out being a factor too. But I disagree about it being a minor issue. 

 

The line about "electing a government " by voting labour was quite powerful and persuasive IMO. Starmer didn't really seek a mandate from the people to make significant change though (whereas Blair had devolution etc.) it was basically a "vote Labour, we're not the tories" -  so now people are feeling pretty let down - which IMO is perhaps stopping the bleeding for the SNP on more recent polling - but has equally supported a reform surge. 

[Dennis Denuto]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'd agree with the drive to get the Tories out being a factor too. But I disagree about it being a minor issue. 

 

The line about "electing a government " by voting labour was quite powerful and persuasive IMO. Starmer didn't really seek a mandate from the people to make significant change though (whereas Blair had devolution etc.) it was basically a "vote Labour, we're not the tories" -  so now people are feeling pretty let down - which IMO is perhaps stopping the bleeding for the SNP on more recent polling - but has equally supported a reform surge. 

The graph you shared is what for me points to the drive to remove the Tories being the largest issue that cost the SNP, the timeline and decline stopping right on the election time for me show this. There were several factors at play though and they were all used to feed into the narrative, poor performance in government, operation branchform and then GRA all helped feed the decline

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I still think it has. The SNP prior to the unveiling of the GRA were polling very, very strongly, and deteriorated gradually after bringing forward the GRA following by a sharp decline when the Isla Bryson situation came into the public sphere (also Andrew Miller -  the rapist butcher from the borders was around this time too).

 

Talk about the GRA dominated public debate (and in many ways still does). Polling impacts aren't felt immediately, but I think it absolutely has caused a drop in support and a disconnection between support for the SNP vs Support for Independence, which is now around somewhere between 15 and 20%. 

 

In the interests of fairness, I think its important to stress, I'm not solely blaming the GRA for the SNPs decline over the last few years, but I am saying it is a driving factor. Operation Branchform started in July of 2021, and so follows a similar time period for the GRA bill. Which lends itself to the idea that it wasn't one single thing.

 

The sight of having a First Minister declaring sincerely held concerns as "not valid" and subsequent failures by senior cabinet members to explain what a woman is has done damage to public trust, because when governments do things which runs contrary to common sense, and the justification falls short, the public can see through it IMO - if you asked folk without an agenda what a woman is, they'd point to your mum, sister, granny, aunt. The area we moved into because of the GRA felt dishonest, and when those championing it, aren't able to explain terms like that, it erodes trust. 

 

 

 

Hard to say, but even from your own graph there, support for vocally pro-GRA Greens has risen slightly. Equally, Alba and the other fringe Indy parties who were very vocal against it have peaked at 1-2%.  It's no more than a minor factor, IMO.

 

As @Hagar the Horrible says, it may have harmed the Trans cause but equally, which party has really got to grips with it?

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

The GRA is not a vote deciding issue. The general decline of the party and independence post-Sturgeon is within expectation of the general lifecycle of parties and political movements, particularly in post-capitalist societies with limited hope of improved living standards for people in the future.

 

People vote a certain way for a while and then change in the hope and not expectation of improvement to their lives. 

[manaliveits105]

John Swinney was heckled as he addressed an event for Israeli hostages on Sunday outside Holyrood as attendees yelled "shame on you" and booed him.

The First Minister used the event to defend his support for recognition of a Palestinian state.

The SNP has pushed for UK recognition despite Gaza being controlled by a proscribed terrorist organisation and warnings it would encourage Islamist extremists.
 

Why would anyone actually go along to that event and say that ??
He rightly got dogs abuse and looked quite taken aback 

His time is up .

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

John Swinney was heckled as he addressed an event for Israeli hostages on Sunday outside Holyrood as attendees yelled "shame on you" and booed him.

The First Minister used the event to defend his support for recognition of a Palestinian state.

The SNP has pushed for UK recognition despite Gaza being controlled by a proscribed terrorist organisation and warnings it would encourage Islamist extremists.
 

Why would anyone actually go along to that event and say that ??
He rightly got dogs abuse and looked quite taken aback 

His time is up .

 

Politicians are not that clever!

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

John Swinney was heckled as he addressed an event for Israeli hostages on Sunday outside Holyrood as attendees yelled "shame on you" and booed him.

The First Minister used the event to defend his support for recognition of a Palestinian state.

The SNP has pushed for UK recognition despite Gaza being controlled by a proscribed terrorist organisation and warnings it would encourage Islamist extremists.
 

Why would anyone actually go along to that event and say that ??
He rightly got dogs abuse and looked quite taken aback 

His time is up .

 

Here’s the video !!! 
 

 

[Cruyff]

Swinney falling into the Sturgeon lefty trap. Disappointing. Whether I agree or not with what he is saying he & the SNP should stay neutral on the subject. He's an arsehole for doing that and rightfully mocked. Weak as piss. So they are. This is exactly why you cannae vote for them. They are completely unserious. 

[XB52]

The SG, unlike the idiots in Westminster, rightly support the rights of the Palestinian people by calling for a total ban on any arms going to Israel.

I've just joined Believe in Scotland, who's aim is to get all independence supporting parties to stop the sniping and work together. Realistically this means the SNP and the Greens but if Alba can get passed Alex Salmond then get them too. 

PS I'm sure I'll have a good laugh at the replies to this, if anyone quotes them.

[manaliveits105]

The Greens 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

The SG, unlike the idiots in Westminster, rightly support the rights of the Palestinian people by calling for a total ban on any arms going to Israel.

I've just joined Believe in Scotland, who's aim is to get all independence supporting parties to stop the sniping and work together. Realistically this means the SNP and the Greens but if Alba can get passed Alex Salmond then get them too. 

PS I'm sure I'll have a good laugh at the replies to this, if anyone quotes them.

No least your joining groups outwith the JKB . Doing something. Mind and no  argue with the “ Christians for Independence “ though as they supported Ackie . Don’t want you booted out . Interesting list of 

“ affiliated groups “ . I find it hard to believe they are politically neutral . 
 

 

[JamboGlen]

11 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Swinney falling into the Sturgeon lefty trap. Disappointing. Whether I agree or not with what he is saying he & the SNP should stay neutral on the subject. He's an arsehole for doing that and rightfully mocked. Weak as piss. So they are. This is exactly why you cannae vote for them. They are completely unserious. 

Swinney, Sturgeon and Hamza, all stronger for everyone expect Scots that actually work hard for a living.

[Cruyff]

44 minutes ago, JamboGlen said:

Swinney, Sturgeon and Hamza, all stronger for everyone expect Scots that actually work hard for a living.

You're not wrong.

[Jacques de Gauthier]

14 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Here’s the video !!! 
 

 

For a Hearts man, he's got an awfy ability to Hibsit.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Jacques de Gauthier said:

For a Hearts man, he's got an awfy ability to Hibsit.

Oh I forgot he was a Jambo . Apparently he’s a dish washer . He worked at a restaurant many years ago in Edinburgh . I knew the owners and the staff . Was viewed as a nice guy , Shame politics ruined it for him . Tbf least he went into the lions den whereas others might have bottled it . But there’s  a time and a place 

[Jacques de Gauthier]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh I forgot he was a Jambo . Apparently he’s a dish washer . He worked at a restaurant many years ago in Edinburgh . I knew the owners and the staff . Was viewed as a nice guy , Shame politics ruined it for him . Tbf least he went into the lions den whereas others might have bottled it . But there’s  a time and a place 

Yeah, fair play to him for attending, but really poor judgement to start up all that crap at Palestine. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, JamboGlen said:

Swinney, Sturgeon and Hamza, all stronger for everyone expect Scots that actually work hard for a living.

 A wee Freudian slip there!

[Gundermann]

Refuk going full Liz Truss.

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

40 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Refuk going full Liz Truss.

 

 

 

Aye services on their knees now once the SNP lifted their council tax  freeze 

Edited October 6 by JudyJudyJudy

[Carter]

On 02/10/2025 at 13:34, lost in space said:

Talking of Jenny Gilruth - she has to be the worst minister in Scotland. She talks and talks but never says anything. I think she just totally confuses interviewers by non-stop talking - mostly not on the topic of ANY question. I actually expect the interviewer to ask "what was the question I asked again, Ive forgotten?"

I did think Angela Constance was the worst as she can hardly string a sentence together - but Gilruth is worse. Maybe has to go home to ask Kezia what she thinks, of course.

Gilruth is a grotesque individual and offensively stupid. Liam Kerr (good Jambo) has handed her arse to her a good few times in Holyrood. He clearly knows she's an empty vessel. 

 

Her ascent within the SNP MSP cadre is due to her gender, sexuality and being a Sturgeon acolyte. It's certainly not based on ability as she's a cretinous halfwit. She's also got that highly unfortunate sneering manner that's so resembles Sturgeon. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Carter said:

Gilruth is a grotesque individual and offensively stupid. Liam Kerr (good Jambo) has handed her arse to her a good few times in Holyrood. He clearly knows she's an empty vessel. 

 

Her ascent within the SNP MSP cadre is due to her gender, sexuality and being a Sturgeon acolyte. It's certainly not based on ability as she's a cretinous halfwit. She's also got that highly unfortunate sneering manner that's so resembles Sturgeon. 

Great posting . She really is vile , sneerer condescending , hopeless so called MSP . As you correctly stated only got to her position due to crawling up Sturgeons 

Bahookey and Ofcourse fully supporting the dangerous gender nonsense 

[Gundermann]

7 hours ago, Carter said:

Gilruth is a grotesque individual and offensively stupid. Liam Kerr (good Jambo) has handed her arse to her a good few times in Holyrood. He clearly knows she's an empty vessel. 

 

Her ascent within the SNP MSP cadre is due to her gender, sexuality and being a Sturgeon acolyte. It's certainly not based on ability as she's a cretinous halfwit. She's also got that highly unfortunate sneering manner that's so resembles Sturgeon. 

 

Liam 'Came second to the SNP' Kerr FFS. How does one explain his rise? His posh school?

 

Kerr is the Scottish Conservatives' Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Justice.^[2] He served as Deputy Leader of the Scottish Conservative Party, alongside Annie Wells, under Jackson Carlaw. However, they both were dismissed and the post was abolished shortly after Douglas Ross became Scottish Conservative leader in August 2020.^[3]

In 2016, he stood for the Scottish Parliament as the Conservative candidate in Aberdeen Donside, coming second to the SNP's Mark McDonald, then was elected on the regional list.^[4][5]

In June 2017, Kerr was appointed by the Scottish Conservatives as their for spokesperson for Justice in the Scottish Parliament.^[6] He sits on the Justice Committee and is deputy convenor of the Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee.^[7]

In March 2021 Kerr voted for a motion of no confidence in First Minister Nicola Sturgeon alleging that she had knowingly misled Parliament.^[8][9]

In the 2021 Scottish election Kerr stood for the Aberdeen South and North Kincardine seat and came second to the SNP.

 

His erse knittin socks now as he faces coming third behind the SNP.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/6851766/aberdeen-tory-liam-kerr-reform-stephen-flynn/

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

His posh school

You really are quite envious . It’s a trait very much associated with so called 

“ socialists “ like you. 

Edited October 6 by JudyJudyJudy