Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I just had an older American guy in my shop renting a bike for his four day stay in Edinburgh.

 

General blethering as you do and I asked him if he was touring round and where else he was going to see.

 

His reply was "No I'm just in Edinburgh for four days and I'm here to see history being made"

 

Pretty amazing when you stop and think about what we're part of whatever side you're on.

 

Not according to some...

[Boab]

If it is a yes, I will make sure i vote for snp to be in power as I want them to be held accountable for the shambles.

 

You had more credibility in Knight Rider!

What a load of nonsense.

[Boab]

Think it's time to bow out of this thread and Facebook, getting bored rigid of the same arguments and ridiculous exaggerations from both sides (this is mainly a Facebook problem).

 

Just a shame I can't skip work til it's over as well

 

On the contrary,mate,if anything,I hope,regardless of the result,that this whole process will make people engage in politics instead of moaning about things and not bothering to do anything about it.Doubt it will happen but would be great to have this energy everytime there is an election.Apathy should be banned.

[rossthejambo]

 

 

 

On the contrary,mate,if anything,I hope,regardless of the result,that this whole process will make people engage in politics instead of moaning about things and not bothering to do anything about it.Doubt it will happen but would be great to have this energy everytime there is an election.Apathy should be banned.

 

I'm all for people being more engaged in politics, but see all the people sharing ridiculous exaggerated lies to try and promote their side of the campaign is beginning to really grate on me.

 

[super_vlad]

Tory MP's threatening to scupper Devo Max already.

http://www.telegraph...r-Scotland.html

 

They will not be a devo max, it doesn't even exist. We have being offered absolutely **** all and people are taking it as gospel.

 

Worthless vow to grab headlines, and its the Yes side that is attacked for living in a dream world.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

On the contrary,mate,if anything,I hope,regardless of the result,that this whole process will make people engage in politics instead of moaning about things and not bothering to do anything about it.Doubt it will happen but would be great to have this energy everytime there is an election.Apathy should be banned.

Hopefully this is one of the positive outcomes of all this. A Scottish electorate re-engaged with the political process.

 

For me the fascinating thing will be the next General and Scottish elections when the current unholiest of alliances are discarded and the parties have to stand on their own manifesto.

[Boab]

I'm all for people being more engaged in politics, but see all the people sharing ridiculous exaggerated lies to try and promote their side of the campaign is beginning to really grate on me.

 

Point taken.

Some of it is silly.

[Boab]

Hopefully this is one of the positive outcomes of all this. A Scottish electorate re-engaged with the political process.

 

For me the fascinating thing will be the next General and Scottish elections when the current unholiest of alliances are discarded and the parties have to stand on their own manifesto.

 

[super_vlad]

Hopefully this is one of the positive outcomes of all this. A Scottish electorate re-engaged with the political process.

 

For me the fascinating thing will be the next General and Scottish elections when the current unholiest of alliances are discarded and the parties have to stand on their own manifesto.

 

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser here but i feel the total opposite. When No wins on Friday, it would have defeated a proper grassroots campaign for change. The winners will be the ruling classes, big business & the media. Why should i take part in their show again?

[ToadKiller Dog]

Salmond rather well brushing off the NHS leak stuff from this morning and turning it round .

Jackie Bird rather than argue moved debate on .

Strong performance from Salmond .

[deesidejambo]

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser here but i feel the total opposite. When No wins on Friday, it would have defeated a proper grassroots campaign for change. The winners will be the ruling classes, big business & the media. Why should i take part in their show again?

 

Its far from over. I think Murdoch may be waiting to fire his salvo. Not that its any of his business, but it may show how people can be influenced without thinking for themselves. Remember "It woz the Sun wot done it".

[ToadKiller Dog]

New statesman on the weakness of the three amigos vow .

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/leaders-vow-power-scotland-already-unravelling

Edited September 16, 2014 by ToadKiller Dog

[Gabriel]

Its far from over. I think Murdoch may be waiting to fire his salvo. Not that its any of his business, but it may show how people can be influenced without thinking for themselves. Remember "It woz the Sun wot done it".

 

Followed some of Murdoch's Tweets the other night, and while he might have been struck by the strength of emotion and campaigning, I can't say I gained the impression that he would back 'Yes'.

[Gorgiewave]

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser here but i feel the total opposite. When No wins on Friday, it would have defeated a proper grassroots campaign for change. The winners will be the ruling classes, big business & the media. Why should i take part in their show again?

 

In what way is the SNP's very cosy relationship with Rupert Murdoch against "the ruling classes, big business and the media"? In what way is wanting to base an economy on international finance and oil against "the ruling classes and big business"? In what way is giving Weight Watchers a contract to run a part of the NHS "against big business"? Serious questions, please answer.

 

A grassroots campaign for change should not prevail if it is a minority that is going to be out-voted, which it is. Goals win games, flair wins nothing. As The Proclaimers sang, "What do you do when minority means you?" It looks like you are going to go in the huff.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Gorgiewave

[Gorgiewave]

Its far from over. I think Murdoch may be waiting to fire his salvo. Not that its any of his business, but it may show how people can be influenced without thinking for themselves. Remember "It woz the Sun wot done it".

 

It's surprising that Murdoch seems to prefer Yes since he is such a coward that he always backs the favourite.

[pablo]

 

 

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser here but i feel the total opposite. When No wins on Friday, it would have defeated a proper grassroots campaign for change. The winners will be the ruling classes, big business & the media. Why should i take part in their show again?

 

But No will deliver change quicker than Yes and with less risk, you'll be the winner along with everyone else.

[super_vlad]

Its far from over. I think Murdoch may be waiting to fire his salvo. Not that its any of his business, but it may show how people can be influenced without thinking for themselves. Remember "It woz the Sun wot done it".

 

The sun always back the winner, its tradition tory but changed under blair. They have held off as it was too close to call, i fully expect the next 2 days for it to strongly back NO.

 

it will be very interesting to see who they back in the WM elections

[ToadKiller Dog]

Have read you can change your postal ballot vote up until 5pm on the day you can apply for a replacement postal vote pack .

I never knew that .

So you want to change to a yes or no it's possible .

[stirlo]

It's surprising that Murdoch seems to prefer Yes since he is such a coward that he always backs the favourite.

The Times has already basically come out in favour of a 'no' vote. The thing is, with social media I think the influence of newspapers these days is fairly minimal - and of all people, I hardly think Rupert Murdoch is likely to influence the vote of many people in Scotland by backing one side or the other.

[Mikey1874]

 

 

Maybe I'm just being a sore loser here but i feel the total opposite. When No wins on Friday, it would have defeated a proper grassroots campaign for change. The winners will be the ruling classes, big business & the media. Why should i take part in their show again?

 

good point

 

but it was your show too

[TheMaganator]

Have read you can change your postal ballot vote up until 5pm on the day you can apply for a replacement postal vote pack .

I never knew that .

So you want to change to a yes or no it's possible .

Don't think that's right

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-postal-voters-told-4269961

 

Electoral commission has had a few enquiries

[super_vlad]

In what way is the SNP's very cosy relationship with Rupert Murdoch against "the ruling classes, big business and the media"? In what way is wanting to base an economy on international finance and oil against "the ruling classes and big business"? In what way is giving Weight Watchers a contract to run a part of the NHS "against big business"? Serious questions, please answer.

 

A grassroots campaign for change should not prevail if it is a minority that is going to be out-voted, which it is. Goals win games, flair wins nothing. As The Proclaimers sang, "What do you do when minority means you?" It looks like you are going to go in the huff.

 

Can you please explain this cosy relationship with Murdoch and the SNP that we keep hearing about. Correctly me if im wrong but not one of his papers or TV stations have backed Yes. Again if you tell a lie for long enough it will stick, so bravo for carrying it on. We will also complete forget that the ex editor of the news of the world was within cameron's inner circle.

As for your comments against giving out contracts, is there anything left for the tories & WM to privatise. I must have must it when the snp sold off scottish assets to their pals.

I mean giving out contracts to WW is exactly the same as sell off the post office, funny how that wasn't better together.

I mean its clear as day that Cameron and the minstrel are men of the people.

We had the banks, and the supermarkets come out for No this week, was that not proof that this is business led?

 

[Brandt]

Murdoch will wait until the last second so the opposite of his opinion wont have time to respond.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Brandt

[Boris]

As an aside, a no leaflet was delivered tonight...along with a leaflet for BUPA.

 

Just sayin'!

[Charlie-Brown]

The Scottish Sun is more sympathetic to Yes than any other mainstream media outlet.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

 

As an aside, a no leaflet was delivered tonight...along with a leaflet for BUPA.

 

Just sayin'!

 

[eddiepolio]

 

 

You had more credibility in Knight Rider!

What a load of nonsense.

 

you're way of the mark here boab. I will also be voting SNP for the very first time in my life if yes wins for the very same reason and I've got loads of colleagues at work who will do the same so respectfully, not a load of nonsense.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Can you please explain this cosy relationship with Murdoch and the SNP that we keep hearing about. Correctly me if im wrong but not one of his papers or TV stations have backed Yes. Again if you tell a lie for long enough it will stick, so bravo for carrying it on. We will also complete forget that the ex editor of the news of the world was within cameron's inner circle.

As for your comments against giving out contracts, is there anything left for the tories & WM to privatise. I must have must it when the snp sold off scottish assets to their pals.

I mean giving out contracts to WW is exactly the same as sell off the post office, funny how that wasn't better together.

I mean its clear as day that Cameron and the minstrel are men of the people.

We had the banks, and the supermarkets come out for No this week, was that not proof that this is business led?

 

Blood on all hands tbh.

 

Salmond has and did schmooze the Murdochs. He was slow to come out against the phone hacking scandals, was cosy with them in the run up to 2011 and won the Suns support. He and Swinney were chatting about tax breaks like Amazons to attract Sky offices to Scotland. Call centre think it was. The Sun also backed independence in 1992. It's yet to release an editorial, I think. Don't read it.

 

Murdoch and Salmond are close. He's lobbied for their support repeatedly for years. The Sun has been the least aggressive paper towards a Yes win.

 

All papers are close to a party. Labour traditionally the Guardian, Scotsman, Herald, Mirror and Record. Tories the Telegraph, Times and FT. LibDems have generally has the Independnents tacit approval. The SNP over the past few years have a lot of friends in the NewsCorp group, the Scottish Sun and now also the likes of the Herlad and the Post as well has become pro-SNP. It's a natural progression for a party of protest to adopt when it sheds that and joins the establishment.

[indianajones]

 

Shouting but shouting sense.

[Boab]

If it is a yes, I will make sure i vote for snp to be in power as I want them to be held accountable for the shambles.

you're way of the mark here boab. I will also be voting SNP for the very first time in my life if yes wins for the very same reason and I've got loads of colleagues at work who will do the same so respectfully, not a load of nonsense.

 

Have I missed the point of his post?

You will vote for a party...confident that it will be a disaster....so you can revel in their decline?

Please tell me I have this wrong because if that is the reason,I despair.

[Stuart Lyon]

Shouting something that rhymes with might!

Edited September 16, 2014 by Stuart Lyon

[eddiepolio]

 

 

 

Have I missed the point of his post?

You will vote for a party...confident that it will be a disaster....so you can revel in their decline?

Please tell me I have this wrong because if that is the reason,I despair.

 

you have got the wrong end of the stick. How can any of the other parties be expected to implement any of the fantasy from the white paper? This is the SNP's/Salmond's legacy and they/he must be responsible for making it become a reality. Do you not agree?

[Boab]

you have got the wrong end of the stick. How can any of the other parties be expected to implement any of the fantasy from the white paper? This is the SNP's/Salmond's legacy and they/he must be responsible for making it become a reality. Do you not agree?

No.

It will be up to the electorate to decide whether they want those policies.Personally,I haven't a clue how i'll vote in 2016(in the event of a Yes but will do so with the best intentions). Now,in the event of a Yes vote,we will have two years to hear what the other parties are proposing.We won't hear anything at the moment because their hands are tied from down south but they will have to come up with a plan...and pretty darn quick.

I'm sorry,mate but you will vote for something you think is fantasy?

[RosscoC]

ICM after don't knows: No 52%, Yes 48%

[Mikey1874]

yep

 

if Labour want to keep trident and win election we keep trident

 

but we're probably keeping trident anyway as part of negociations to join Nato etc

[Yoda]

If it is a yes, I will make sure i vote for snp to be in power as I want them to be held accountable for the shambles.

 

I'll be doing the same. However, I think the SNP will be diving for cover, once the sh1t hits the fan.

 

Salmond will retire, job done. Probably go the Bahamas and live with Sean Connery.

 

It's all the rest of us that will have to deal with it.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

 

And?

 

You've been called out on the 25% claim. Just retract it.

Better ask the BBC it was their programme. For economic advise I prefer Nobel Prize winners to Kickbackers, usually safer

[IMac]

ICM after don't knows: No 52%, Yes 48%

 

Jenkins says momentum I say all that matters is the 14% undecideds.

[jambogaza]

ICM after don't knows: No 52%, Yes 48%

 

My gut feeling is that this will be the national result (there or there about).

[Pete Seeger]

This whole debates now ripping my knitten. I'll be voting yes because I want to see Scotland have it's own control over itself as much as possible. I also think we've a slightly better chance of a fairer distribution of wealth in the long term under a Scottish elected government. That said, I'm not an economist and neither are the majority on here, twitter, facebook and on the street. Despite this being a truly momentous occasion I now can't wait for it to be over. I'm fed up with the divide among my family, colleagues and friends and I genuinely hope that whatever the vote people will move on and get on with it. There's no room for bitterness.

[jambo1185]

 

Better ask the BBC it was their programme. For economic advise I prefer Nobel Prize winners to Kickbackers, usually safer

 

The problem is the programme didn't say that did it? You've picked something up incorrectly. And as for Nobel prize winners you only listen to the ones yes tells you to I take it? Or do you have your own views on Krugman?

Edited September 16, 2014 by jambo1185

[JamboX2]

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-16/i-have-a-confession-to-make-i-am-not-enjoying-covering-the-scottish-referendum/

 

How others view us? Certainly know more No campaigners on the wrong end of Yes than the other way around.

 

Either way the tone of the debate isn't good and the level of bad emotion put in towards the end of this must be sending a bad signal. Salmond's attitude mirrors it. Dismissive of dissent and unwilling to listen to others.

[JamboGraham]

 

 

 

Jenkins says momentum I say all that matters is the 14% undecideds.

 

Indeed, that's yet another poll showing similar figures...Yes did an incredible job to close the gap but momentum has stopped.

 

The only show in town now is the undecided voter.

[Rudolf's Mate]

No.

It will be up to the electorate to decide whether they want those policies.Personally,I haven't a clue how i'll vote in 2016(in the event of a Yes but will do so with the best intentions). Now,in the event of a Yes vote,we will have two years to hear what the other parties are proposing.We won't hear anything at the moment because their hands are tied from down south but they will have to come up with a plan...and pretty darn quick.

I'm sorry,mate but you will vote for something you think is fantasy?

 

I think I get what he and others are saying and it's got me thinking as well.

 

There will be people voting yes for various reasons however some might be doing so in part or in full due to the white paper. Some might not agree with Salmon or the SNP and might want someone else in power. Surely in this case it would be absurd to expect another party to deliver on the white paper?

 

I might have got the wrong end of the stick however it's still a valid point or rather points.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

Better ask the BBC it was their programme. For economic advise I prefer Nobel Prize winners to Kickbackers, usually safer

[TheMaganator]

Jobby Brown speaks really well. He's getting a pounding from Dimbelby on BBC but doing really well.

 

Much better than Darling.

[Rudolf's Mate]

 

My gut feeling is that this will be the national result (there or there about).

 

What's the figure of unknowns?

 

I actually think we'll see a surge/swing one way or the other due to the above. Stating the obvious I know!

[Ulysses]

Note for members: On Wednesday morning this thread and debate will run into its 726th day, and it will be time to allow people time and space away from the debate before the voting takes place. With this in mind, this thread will close temporarily from Wednesday morning until shortly before the polls close on Thursday, and any other referendum chat/debate on the board will be removed.

 

Members are asked to keep in mind that posting referendum debate or calls to vote either way on other threads will be especially unwelcome, so please respect this referendum debate moratorium once it starts.

[Stuart Lyon]

Good call

[ToadKiller Dog]

The head of ICM has admitted that the polls could be widely inaccurate in either direction and the pollsters could be facing their Waterloo in an article in the Herald .