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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


Happy Hearts

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This is quite an intimidating thread. It seems if you are not an economist, then you are disregarded. I did economics in my first year at uni.....still don't really understand it all. However, as a parent, this vote is not about how better or worse off I will be. If it is a YES, I won't die of starvation. Yes, the next five or ten years may be hard, but I will survive. I would rather go without now, so that my son has a future where he is accepted as a person, not by how much money he earns or what social bracket he is in.

 

This is about future generations.....we won't be here forever. Look at the bigger picture....it is not about us, it is for those that come after us...and to deny that to future generations is just selfish.

Funnily enough Alec Salmond is a trained economist, unlike people on this thread who oppose Yes and indeed those they quote as experts.

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Deeside jambo - Salmond should explain the details of how his utopian Scotland will be achieved. We all have ideals but it is unlikely that we will achieve them all - the Salmond National Party seem to think all their's will be achieved.

 

Ideals are fine, we all have them.

 

But EU Membership is a massive issue that will affect Scotland very deeply.

 

Salmond cannot just simply ignore the risk that we need to reapply, and in that case, he needs to state, exactly, what Scotland would do if the reapplication failed. He won't, because he doesn't know.

 

This whole Yes campaign is ludicrous in its execution. Ignore real and material risks and glibly dismiss anyone who has the temerity to say they want answers about them.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

Funnily enough Alec Salmond is a trained economist, unlike people on this thread who oppose Yes and indeed those they quote as experts.

A trained economist who doesn't seem to know the difference between a currency union and sterlingisation.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

Ideals are fine, we all have them.

 

But EU Membership is a massive issue that will affect Scotland very deeply.

 

Salmond cannot just simply ignore the risk that we need to reapply, and in that case, he needs to state, exactly, what Scotland would do if the reapplication failed. He won't, because he doesn't know.

 

This whole Yes campaign is ludicrous in its execution. Ignore real and material risks and glibly dismiss anyone who has the temerity to say they want answers about them.

It isn't about the application, it is about the opt-outs that Scotland currently has as part of the UK.

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A very decent insight to the Yes campaign from Ewan Morrison...

 

EWAN MORRISON: WHY I JOINED YES AND WHY I CHANGED TO NO -

 

 

http://wakeupscotlan...-changed-to-no/

Unfortunately our government has been run like this as well since they won the majority and announced the referendum - nobody has asked Salmond questions or been critical of government policy for fear of rocking the boat - within the SNP.

 

That is not healthy and by the sounds of that article the Yes camp isn't much healthier.

 

"It'll be alright on the night..."

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Funnily enough Alec Salmond is a trained economist, unlike people on this thread who oppose Yes and indeed those they quote as experts.

Sturgeon is a trained lawyer - that doesn't make her a good one.

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Unfortunately our government has been run like this as well since they won the majority and announced the referendum - nobody has asked Salmond questions or been critical of government policy for fear of rocking the boat - within the SNP.

 

That is not healthy and by the sounds of that article the Yes camp isn't much healthier.

 

"It'll be alright on the night..."

 

But here's the thing. For me, anyway, YES is the vehicle to indepenedence. What happens after could be anything BUT it would be our decision.

 

If an independent Scotland elects a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition, so be it. If it elects a Labour/Lib coalition so be it.

 

If it elects a Green/SNP/Lib coalition so be it.

 

The point is, is that what happens from there on in is completely Holyrood's responsibility and it it is up to the political parties to cash in on the surge of in political re-engagement amongst the electorate to best fulfil their will.

 

For me, Westminster, unless there is radical reform down there (which I don't think there will be) will still be as "out of touch and reach".

 

I know we are going round in circles but I still maintain that a vote for YES is NOT a vote for the SNP.

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Once again. YOU ARE NOT VOTING FOR PEOPLE. YOU ARE VOTING FOR THE FUTURE OF SCOTLAND.

 

[MODEDIT]

A statement so typical of the 'have my cake and eat it' argument of the yes campaign.

It is not acceptable to bring Salmond into the argument, despite the fact he is on one of history's biggest ego trips and wants independence at ANY cost, but Cameron and, more commonly the big bad 'TORIES' are fair game.

Failure to trust Salmond, his party and his politics is a perfectly good reason to vote No.

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But here's the thing. For me, anyway, YES is the vehicle to indepenedence. What happens after could be anything BUT it would be our decision.

 

If an independent Scotland elects a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition, so be it. If it elects a Labour/Lib coalition so be it.

 

If it elects a Green/SNP/Lib coalition so be it.

 

The point is, is that what happens from there on in is completely Holyrood's responsibility and it it is up to the political parties to cash in on the surge of in political re-engagement amongst the electorate to best fulfil their will.

 

For me, Westminster, unless there is radical reform down there (which I don't think there will be) will still be as "out of touch and reach".

 

I know we are going round in circles but I still maintain that a vote for YES is NOT a vote for the SNP.

 

But there are things that would not be "our decision" EU Membership for a start.

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But here's the thing. For me, anyway, YES is the vehicle to indepenedence. What happens after could be anything BUT it would be our decision.

 

If an independent Scotland elects a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition, so be it. If it elects a Labour/Lib coalition so be it.

 

If it elects a Green/SNP/Lib coalition so be it.

 

The point is, is that what happens from there on in is completely Holyrood's responsibility and it it is up to the political parties to cash in on the surge of in political re-engagement amongst the electorate to best fulfil their will.

 

For me, Westminster, unless there is radical reform down there (which I don't think there will be) will still be as "out of touch and reach".

 

I know we are going round in circles but I still maintain that a vote for YES is NOT a vote for the SNP.

I get that Boris and I do actually respect your position.

 

Your point certainly has merit but I don?t think the benefit from not being able to blame others (which we shouldn?t be doing anyway) outweighs the benefits of union ? or negative consequences of leaving it.

 

I think the political landscape in the UK will change whether we vote Yes or No. I do genuinely see a lurch to a more federal model post-No

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A trained economist who doesn't seem to know the difference between a currency union and sterlingisation.

Seem is the operative word here. The debate is no longer about currency it's about trust and power. Or should I say lack of trust between the people of Scotland and the Westminster politicians. A pledge from Nick Clegg how did that work for students in England at the last election (tuition fees)? Cameron has been in Scotland several time since the No side began to smell defeat last week he hasn't spoken to an ordinary voter yet just invited audiences. His video backdrop showed that apparently the British Lions would disappear post yes , ignoring the fact that an independent Ireland are part of it already. Milliband quoted former scottish miners leader Mick mcgahey last week , Westminster presided over the closure of all mines in Scotland. Labour and the Condems will all fight the next election based on the same austerity budget. So stay with Westminster for austerity, zero hours contracts, food banks and a privatised NHS - no thanks.

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But here's the thing. For me, anyway, YES is the vehicle to indepenedence. What happens after could be anything BUT it would be our decision.

 

If an independent Scotland elects a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition, so be it. If it elects a Labour/Lib coalition so be it.

 

If it elects a Green/SNP/Lib coalition so be it.

 

The point is, is that what happens from there on in is completely Holyrood's responsibility and it it is up to the political parties to cash in on the surge of in political re-engagement amongst the electorate to best fulfil their will.

 

For me, Westminster, unless there is radical reform down there (which I don't think there will be) will still be as "out of touch and reach".

 

I know we are going round in circles but I still maintain that a vote for YES is NOT a vote for the SNP.

 

Do Westminster and radical reform ever appear in the same sentence without 'unless'? One of the promises the Conservatives had in their last manifesto was to introduce a mechanism to give the electorate the right to recall errant MPs. It was part of the plant to make Westminster more accountable. The promise was even agreed to by the Liberal Democrats on joining the coalition, yet it has never been implemented; too radical.

Edited by Gabriel
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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

Seem is the operative word here. The debate is no longer about currency it's about trust and power. Or should I say lack of trust between the people of Scotland and the Westminster politicians. A pledge from Nick Clegg how did that work for students in England at the last election (tuition fees)? Cameron has been in Scotland several time since the No side began to smell defeat last week he hasn't spoken to an ordinary voter yet just invited audiences. His video backdrop showed that apparently the British Lions would disappear post yes , ignoring the fact that an independent Ireland are part of it already. Milliband quoted former scottish miners leader Mick mcgahey last week , Westminster presided over the closure of all mines in Scotland. Labour and the Condems will all fight the next election based on the same austerity budget. So stay with Westminster for austerity, zero hours contracts, food banks and a privatised NHS - no thanks.

Nice swerve. I take it you concede the point.

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Nice swerve. I take it you concede the point.

Yes but the point being pledges from Westminster have been proven to be worthless in the past so rejection of CU is likely to change post yes too, when negotiations begin.

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Seem is the operative word here. The debate is no longer about currency it's about trust and power. Or should I say lack of trust between the people of Scotland and the Westminster politicians. A pledge from Nick Clegg how did that work for students in England at the last election (tuition fees)? Cameron has been in Scotland several time since the No side began to smell defeat last week he hasn't spoken to an ordinary voter yet just invited audiences. His video backdrop showed that apparently the British Lions would disappear post yes , ignoring the fact that an independent Ireland are part of it already. Milliband quoted former scottish miners leader Mick mcgahey last week , Westminster presided over the closure of all mines in Scotland. Labour and the Condems will all fight the next election based on the same austerity budget. So stay with Westminster for austerity, zero hours contracts, food banks and a privatised NHS - no thanks.

 

How can you guarantee that none of the things in your last sentence won't happen post independance?

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But here's the thing. For me, anyway, YES is the vehicle to indepenedence. What happens after could be anything BUT it would be our decision.

 

If an independent Scotland elects a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition, so be it. If it elects a Labour/Lib coalition so be it.

 

If it elects a Green/SNP/Lib coalition so be it.

 

The point is, is that what happens from there on in is completely Holyrood's responsibility and it it is up to the political parties to cash in on the surge of in political re-engagement amongst the electorate to best fulfil their will.

 

For me, Westminster, unless there is radical reform down there (which I don't think there will be) will still be as "out of touch and reach".

 

I know we are going round in circles but I still maintain that a vote for YES is NOT a vote for the SNP.

Not sure I've ever had a satisfactory answer to this.

Why would you vote Yes to an independent Scotland based on the white paper then elect one of 3 parties which fundamentally disagree with it to deliver the vision within?

It's like choosing to support Hearts then buying a season ticket for Easter Road.

If Yes win, the SNP must be elected and held to account.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

Yes but the point being pledges from Westminster have been proven to be worthless in the past so rejection of CU is likely to change post yes too, when negotiations begin.

Any politician backtracking on that post a Yes vote would be crucified by the electorate. It also makes no sense when Salmond plans to use sterling anyway. All benefit and no risk.

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I get that Boris and I do actually respect your position.

 

Your point certainly has merit but I don?t think the benefit from not being able to blame others (which we shouldn?t be doing anyway) outweighs the benefits of union ? or negative consequences of leaving it.

 

I think the political landscape in the UK will change whether we vote Yes or No. I do genuinely see a lurch to a more federal model post-No

 

If you look at what Redwood was saying about an English Parliament (I actually agree with him...Christ!) then surely voting NO leaves England at the mercy of the Tories in perpetuity just the same? Now, I don't think that that is the case at all, but if you follow the NO logic....

 

But most of all, NO has had the best part of three years to state a position re more powers and the constitutional evolution of the UK. It hasn't because it has been so far up its own erse to realise.

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How can you guarantee that none of the things in your last sentence won't happen post independance?

There is no guarantee of course just the belief that whoever forms the independent government in Scotland will have different priorities to Westminster e.g. putting people before big business/profits.

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Not sure I've ever had a satisfactory answer to this.

Why would you vote Yes to an independent Scotland based on the white paper then elect one of 3 parties which fundamentally disagree with it to deliver the vision within?

It's like choosing to support Hearts then buying a season ticket for Easter Road.

If Yes win, the SNP must be elected and held to account.

 

Your argument falls when you say "Why would you vote Yes to an independent Scotland based on the white paper".

 

I'm not. I'm voting YES for independence, not a white paper.

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Funnily enough Alec Salmond is a trained economist, unlike people on this thread who oppose Yes and indeed those they quote as experts.

 

Would you trust anyone with the future of your country who got a 2:2 at uni ?

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Any politician backtracking on that post a Yes vote would be crucified by the electorate. It also makes no sense when Salmond plans to use sterling anyway. All benefit and no risk.

With a yes victory there will be a new prime minister by October so he/she will have a clean slate with the voters.

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After all the optimism, i'll be bitterly disappointed in a No vote. For me it will just sum up everything that is wrong with the current system. The way the campaigns have being run, the fear, the bullying, the media talking down to us and more so the lies! For me it proves that politics, even in this country is corrupt and a game to be play by the rich & elite.

 

I think someone once said that no protest has ever being successful, people can be out on the streets as much as they want, the ruling class will always find a way to save themselves. Offer another on the table to keep the hordes away, in reality they take more than they ever give.

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Would you trust anyone with the future of your country who got a 2:2 at uni ?

I'd like to think people's development and education continued post university.

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There is no guarantee of course just the belief that whoever forms the independent government in Scotland will have different priorities to Westminster e.g. putting people before big business/profits.

 

So the Scottish politicians who've went to work in Westminster who will now make up the Scottiah parliament will miraculously change?

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Your argument falls when you say "Why would you vote Yes to an independent Scotland based on the white paper".

 

I'm not. I'm voting YES for independence, not a white paper.

Based on what then? An ideology? A belief every country should be independent irrespective of consequences? Edited by Pistol1874
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Your argument falls when you say "Why would you vote Yes to an independent Scotland based on the white paper".

 

I'm not. I'm voting YES for independence, not a white paper.

 

Sadly Boris most YES voters are not like yourself.

THey are voting on a hope and a prayer- a manifesto of higher benefits, better NHS, better pensions, more free childcare

NO trident, no austerity

 

Its a lie, all of it.

Brian Cox was correctas to where this will be won- ( if YES wins)- it will be won with the votes of the gullible, naiive and least switched on who cannot see through the sparkly rainbow mists being woven by the fantasist salmond

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So the Scottish politicians who've went to work in Westminster who will now make up the Scottiah parliament will miraculously change?

Some Scottish Westminster politicians may well be decent people that have merely compromised their principles to get on in the Westminster bubble. To prosper in Scotland they will have to adapt / up their game.

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Sadly Boris most YES voters are not like yourself.

THey are voting on a hope and a prayer- a manifesto of higher benefits, better NHS, better pensions, more free childcare

NO trident, no austerity

 

Its a lie, all of it.

Brian Cox was correctas to where this will be won- ( if YES wins)- it will be won with the votes of the gullible, naiive and least switched on who cannot see through the sparkly rainbow mists being woven by the fantasist salmond

 

This. Brian Cox is correct.

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Sadly Boris most YES voters are not like yourself.

THey are voting on a hope and a prayer- a manifesto of higher benefits, better NHS, better pensions, more free childcare

NO trident, no austerity

 

Its a lie, all of it.

Brian Cox was correctas to where this will be won- ( if YES wins)- it will be won with the votes of the gullible, naiive and least switched on who cannot see through the sparkly rainbow mists being woven by the fantasist salmond

You don't like/respect poor people we get it.

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Sadly Boris most YES voters are not like yourself.

THey are voting on a hope and a prayer- a manifesto of higher benefits, better NHS, better pensions, more free childcare

NO trident, no austerity

 

Its a lie, all of it.

Brian Cox was correctas to where this will be won- ( if YES wins)- it will be won with the votes of the gullible, naiive and least switched on who cannot see through the sparkly rainbow mists being woven by the fantasist salmond

 

I think anyone must realise that there will be a sense of realpolitik should YES win. In as much as the same applies in the event of a NO win.

 

Just as YES voters will be "let down" by what independence may actually deliver, equally NO voters will be pleasantly surprised.

 

I trust that the same is true in reverse!

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I'd like to think people's development and education continued post university.

 

Is that not why you would trust someone more educated though as they would have developed more. You just need to attend uni to get a 2:2... Says it all really to me

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

With a yes victory there will be a new prime minister by October so he/she will have a clean slate with the voters.

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems have all ruled it out. So who is going to bow to Salmond's wishes precisely?

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BoJack Horseman

A statement so typical of the 'have my cake and eat it' argument of the yes campaign.

It is not acceptable to bring Salmond into the argument, despite the fact he is on one of history's biggest ego trips and wants independence at ANY cost, but Cameron and, more commonly the big bad 'TORIES' are fair game.

Failure to trust Salmond, his party and his politics is a perfectly good reason to vote No.

 

How is it anything like that? The referendum question is a simple one. It's nothing to do with the SNP, Salmond, the Tories, Cameron, Labour, anyone. It's not about any one single person or party. It's about Scotland, and whether or not Scotland should be an independent country or not. Simple as that.

 

Cameron wants the Union at any cost, but he's to be trusted? I'm ignoring what he's saying, because none of what he says has the sincere concern for Scotland's future. At least Salmond has that.

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Sorry, I'm going off topic but why are zero hours contracts such a bogey issue now? The majority of people on them like the flexibility. I was on one at uni, it was ideal. Being on a fixed part-time contract would have been an absolute nightmare. There is nothing wrong with zero hours contracts as a concept, try and regulate their implementation if you want but an outright ban would be ridiculous.

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If you look at what Redwood was saying about an English Parliament (I actually agree with him...Christ!) then surely voting NO leaves England at the mercy of the Tories in perpetuity just the same? Now, I don't think that that is the case at all, but if you follow the NO logic....

 

But most of all, NO has had the best part of three years to state a position re more powers and the constitutional evolution of the UK. It hasn't because it has been so far up its own erse to realise.

 

Cameron and Osborne allowed their personal loathing of Brown to cloud their judgement on incorporating the Devo Max question. They then basically blocked him off from the IMF job whence he retired to Fife to brood on his lack of a 'big job' while all around him Scotland was changing, he only entered the fray in a last ditch attempt to stem the tide. From the outset, then, the 'Better Together' campaign was ironically anything but. Many on the 'No' side seem to hate Salmond with a passion, seeing him as somehow guided by personal interest, but should the vote be 'Yes', historians will have make hay with the self-serving vanity displayed by the aforementioned three.

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Sadly Boris most YES voters are not like yourself.

THey are voting on a hope and a prayer- a manifesto of higher benefits, better NHS, better pensions, more free childcare

NO trident, no austerity

 

Its a lie, all of it.

Brian Cox was correctas to where this will be won- ( if YES wins)- it will be won with the votes of the gullible, naiive and least switched on who cannot see through the sparkly rainbow mists being woven by the fantasist salmond

Don't forget to add the ones who don't have nice houses, flash cars or decent jobs.
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Some Scottish Westminster politicians may well be decent people that have merely compromised their principles to get on in the Westminster bubble. To prosper in Scotland they will have to adapt / up their game.

 

And you don't for one second think we might end up with a similar political system as down south?

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I think anyone must realise that there will be a sense of realpolitik should YES win. In as much as the same applies in the event of a NO win.

 

Just as YES voters will be "let down" by what independence may actually deliver, equally NO voters will be pleasantly surprised.

 

I trust that the same is true in reverse!

I agree Boris, but the problem is that Salmond has said that "Team Scotland" (ugh) will be negotiating with the White Paper as their mandate. The Yes campaign stated in relation to the vision in the White Paper only last week that, "that's what people are voting for". So if Yes think it's a vote for a vision of independent Scotland as set out in the White Paper, is it any wonder no voters think that too? Now plenty of things in the White Paper are just policy that is changeable with the government of the day, but other aspects are not (either easily, or at all) - why is Salmond/Team Scotland negotiating for a currency union when a significant number of pro-independence campaigners don't think that is in the best interests of Scotland and want a stand alone currency? Or for NATO membership when many (including those in the SNP) don't want to join the alliance. The starting negotiating position on separation is his position/vision.

Edited by jambo1185
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Sorry, I'm going off topic but why are zero hours contracts such a bogey issue now? The majority of people on them like the flexibility. I was on one at uni, it was ideal. Being on a fixed part-time contract would have been an absolute nightmare. There is nothing wrong with zero hours contracts as a concept, try and regulate their implementation if you want but an outright ban would be ridiculous.

 

I work as a ski instructor on Zero hours and I absolutely love it.

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You don't like/respect poor people we get it.

 

You are so far from the truth it's just not even funny, but bang on.

If you think that there has been no demographic split in the YES/NO vote then fair enough. I think there has been.

NOw ask why

MY conclusions will differ from yours- markedly I think.

People have been offered a "more equitable" "socially fairer" society- ie tax and spend

The areas named were by COx- a YES man,

And he is correct- they are the people you can promise the earth to so they will vote for you.

As to why they believe that guff I leave to you to interpret- but they wont get it

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I agree Boris, but the problem is that Salmond has said that "Team Scotland" (ugh) will be negotiating with the White Paper as their mandate. The Yes campaign stated in relation to the vision in the White Paper only last week that, "that's what people are voting for". So if Yes think it's a vote for a vision of independent Scotland as set out in the White Paper, is it any wonder no voters think that too? Now plenty of things in the White Paper are just policy that is changeable with the government of the day, but other aspects are not (either easily, or at all) - why is Salmond/Team Scotland negotiating for a currency union when a significant number of pro-independence campaigners don't think that is in the best interests of Scotland and want a stand alone currency? Or for NATO membership when many (including those in the SNP) don't want to join the alliance. The starting negotiating position on separation is his position/vision.

 

If that is the case, then Jim Sillars retribution comments can be simply dismissed and irrelevant to the debate, as can Patrick Harvie's comments regards making an independent Scotland a republic. BUt these are still used by NO/BT to attack the YES camp.

 

So which is it? If it's all about the white paper, Sillar's and Harvie's comments are irrelevant.

 

Also, isn't the invitation to those negotiating on Scotland's behalf a lot wider than simply the SNP? The white paper is essentially what the SNP will stand on for the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary elections. I don't think that they will win a majority.

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Milliband starts in the right way.........

 

 

Mr Miliband is expected to say: "The will of the people of Scotland for economic and political change has been heard and we will deliver.

"Change is coming with more powers on tax and welfare for the Scottish Parliament. We will change the British state too, the House of Lords and the way we work together across our nations.

"I ask the people of Scotland to lead that change of our whole British constitution."

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Milliband starts in the right way.........

 

 

Mr Miliband is expected to say: "The will of the people of Scotland for economic and political change has been heard and we will deliver.

"Change is coming with more powers on tax and welfare for the Scottish Parliament. We will change the British state too, the House of Lords and the way we work together across our nations.

"I ask the people of Scotland to lead that change of our whole British constitution."

One of my personal bugbears of modern politics - leaking the contents of a speech before it occurs.

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Sorry, I'm going off topic but why are zero hours contracts such a bogey issue now? The majority of people on them like the flexibility. I was on one at uni, it was ideal. Being on a fixed part-time contract would have been an absolute nightmare. There is nothing wrong with zero hours contracts as a concept, try and regulate their implementation if you want but an outright ban would be ridiculous.

 

Where did you read that first part? Did they also enjoy the unpredictability of never knowing how many hours they might receive each day/week/month? You presumably enjoyed the flexibility as it fitted your university curriculum. Now that you have, presumably, graduated, have you considered applying for zero hours contracts or would you prefer stability? Zero hours contracts were maybe 'acceptable' in the darkest days of the recession, but companies and organisations have subsequently (ab)used them to make them a norm. Not a fan. :tiny:

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Scraping the ******* barrel now aren't we, zero hour contracts a good thing. FFS? :uhoh2:

 

Next it will be, whats wrong with making the unemployed work for free for massive businesses.

 

Why should a disable persons have a spare bedroom they don't need.

 

If you want to go to Uni then you should pay for it.

 

We won't get a single new power, the fact that nothing is even being offered is speaks volumes.

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Milliband starts in the right way.........

 

 

Mr Miliband is expected to say: "The will of the people of Scotland for economic and political change has been heard and we will deliver.

"Change is coming with more powers on tax and welfare for the Scottish Parliament. We will change the British state too, the House of Lords and the way we work together across our nations.

"I ask the people of Scotland to lead that change of our whole British constitution."

 

They are now obviously just making it up as they go along. Change the British state and the House of Lords? They might as well add change the earth's orbit to give Scotland more sun if we vote No!!

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