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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


Happy Hearts

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Can anyone who has actually read the command paper tell me if there is going to be a Sunset Clause included in the planned Bill?

 

With a group of such low quality people cooking up a new constitution for Scotland in such a rushed timescale there will inevitably be very poor quality aspects to the settlement.

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From my reading of the legislation, Nicola is just having a difficult time understanding the meaning of the word "consult". There are complications around the aspects of welfare being devolved, because the universal credit is staying reserved (as agreed by the SNP) but there is welfare devolution, so I think that's causing some complexity with the drafting to make that clear. But there is absolutely nothing in there which, so far as I can tell, gives Westminster a complete veto over devolved welfare powers (or how the SNP use their powers on the devolved matters) in the way the SNP have tried to suggest. The clauses the SNP are kicking a fuss about, as I read them, apply to the universal credit which can be varied but which ultimately remains reserved i.e. exactly as agreed in the Smith Commission agreed. So to achieve that Westminster has to be consulted on changes the Scottish Government would like to make to it and the Secretary of State has to agree the date those changes take effect (not to be unreasonably withheld).

 

Similarly, Westminster can't make changes to the Universal Credit which would impact Scotland without consulting the Scottish Government first.

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From my reading of the legislation, Nicola is just having a difficult time understanding the meaning of the word "consult". There are complications around the aspects of welfare being devolved, because the universal credit is staying reserved (as agreed by the SNP) but there is welfare devolution, so I think that's causing some complexity with the drafting to make that clear. But there is absolutely nothing in there which, so far as I can tell, gives Westminster a complete veto over devolved welfare powers (or how the SNP use their powers on the devolved matters) in the way the SNP have tried to suggest. The clauses the SNP are kicking a fuss about, as I read them, apply to the universal credit which can be varied but which ultimately remains reserved i.e. exactly as agreed in the Smith Commission agreed. So to achieve that Westminster has to be consulted on changes the Scottish Government would like to make to it and the Secretary of State has to agree the date those changes take effect (not to be unreasonably withheld).

 

Similarly, Westminster can't make changes to the Universal Credit which would impact Scotland without consulting the Scottish Government first.

 

The problem is the requirement for the Secretary of State to consent, and what would be deemed as an unreasonable withholding of consent. Would "i'm not consenting because it goes directly against Tory party policy" be reasonable?

 

Also, how can Westminster not make changes to the Universal Credit, just by legislating? Does the Scottish Government have a similar requirement to consent?

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The problem is the requirement for the Secretary of State to consent, and what would be deemed as an unreasonable withholding of consent. Would "i'm not consenting because it goes directly against Tory party policy" be reasonable?

 

Also, how can Westminster not make changes to the Universal Credit, just by legislating? Does the Scottish Government have a similar requirement to consent?

 

It's not consent to the detail of the changes but the date on which they take effect. To me that's not a blanket veto, there's plenty of reading out there on what constitutes reasonable withholding of consent - it features in pretty much every commercial contract and a hell of a lot of legislation as well. It's mainly targeted to ensure there is sufficient time to deal with the changes, so for example it's highly unlikely to be unreasonable for Westminster to refuse consent to changes taking effect the following day (to use an extreme example). It also unlikely to be reasonable for Westminster to refuse agreement to a change taking effect ever (unless what Scotland was wanting to do was beyond the scope of its powers or something, or went to matters of national security - but in those cases there would be some kind of judicial decision on the point I am sure).

 

There is a mirror obligation to consult on changes to varying the Universal Credit, whoever is proposing to make those (the Westminster requirement to obtain consent from the Scottish Ministers wouldn't apply, I don't think, where the changes wouldn't effect Scotland for whatever reason).

 

And in any event Sturgeon has been claiming there is a veto on all welfare devolution, which, even if you argue that the above amounts to a veto on Scotland varying the universal credit (which everyone agreed should be reserved remember - so Westminster should be permitted to make changes unilaterally by legislating, that they need to consult with the Scottish Ministers beforehand is formalising what would happen anyway), is total nonsense. The above provisions don't apply to the wider devolved welfare powers.

Edited by jambo1185
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There's no veto. Davy-C made that clear.

 

True to form Sturgeon, rather than working to move matters forward on Scotland's interest, is making up false problems to stir up anti-Westminster sentiment and play to the 45.

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The problem is the requirement for the Secretary of State to consent, and what would be deemed as an unreasonable withholding of consent. Would "i'm not consenting because it goes directly against Tory party policy" be reasonable?

 

Also, how can Westminster not make changes to the Universal Credit, just by legislating? Does the Scottish Government have a similar requirement to consent?

On the first part, if unreasonable excuse was given then you could judicially review it in the courts. If held unreasonable then it'd be politically naive to ignore the decision.

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The problem is the requirement for the Secretary of State to consent, and what would be deemed as an unreasonable withholding of consent. Would "i'm not consenting because it goes directly against Tory party policy" be reasonable?

 

Also, how can Westminster not make changes to the Universal Credit, just by legislating? Does the Scottish Government have a similar requirement to consent?

Davy-C specifically mentioned legislating against the spare-room subsidy, if we wanted to, which is against Tory policy. There is no veto. 

 

I wish she'd stop whining and start governing. What does she plan on doing with the new powers is the conversation we should be having. Government was put on hold during the referendum - lets get things moving again. 

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Semantics perhaps, however if no veto, why is there a need to consult?

Because it's dealing with a matter that is ultimately reserved and it's common decency for the two governments to speak to each other, whoever is wanting to make the change, to see what they feel about it.

 

It happens anyway. It's just formalising how the relationship would work in practice regardless.

 

I'm surprised you seem to be against the two governments having a dialogue Boris?

 

And it's not semantics, consult and consent are not even close to meaning the same thing.

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  • 6 months later...
  • 5 years later...

There was a time nothing controversial was ever released. This info is part of Government documents previously secret. 

 

Not the only info released this week that could be seen to criticise non Conservative figures. 

 

Fair game I suppose. 

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1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Seeing as this old thread has been resurrected can anyone explain this? What does it mean?

 

16771E6E-ADF6-467C-B671-FB51A6A0AC4A.png

The UK Gov are stripping Scotland Parliament of their powers and will continue to do so by the back door. They've already pished all over the devolution settlement during Brexit and are coming up with more schemes to take control of more of Scotland money. They are at it. We know the Tories beliefs on Devolution, they would end it tomorrow if they could get away with it. 

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jack D and coke
41 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

The UK Gov are stripping Scotland Parliament of their powers and will continue to do so by the back door. They've already pished all over the devolution settlement during Brexit and are coming up with more schemes to take control of more of Scotland money. They are at it. We know the Tories beliefs on Devolution, they would end it tomorrow if they could get away with it. 

Didn’t imagine it would be great. The House of Lords eh with The Moof welcomed today. Another with no obvious talent other than keeping that tongue lodged in the right hoops🤢

 

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1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Didn’t imagine it would be great. The House of Lords eh with The Moof welcomed today. Another with no obvious talent other than keeping that tongue lodged in the right hoops🤢

 

:laugh2: deserved. 

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Governor Tarkin
5 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Connery you greedy racist.

 

 

 

The best kind.

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Roxy Hearts
2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Didn’t imagine it would be great. The House of Lords eh with The Moof welcomed today. Another with no obvious talent other than keeping that tongue lodged in the right hoops🤢

 

🤣

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Yet another example of England’s desperation to keep hold of Scotland’s wealth. The wealth that has been propping up England’s spending for years and years. 

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, jamboy1982 said:

Yet another example of England’s desperation to keep hold of Scotland’s wealth. The wealth that has been propping up England’s spending for years and years. 

A lot of Scots will never learn, unfortunately! If the stripping of powers, robbing of wealth, the insulting way we are portrayed or how Westminster have handled Covid doesn't help, then it's a lost cause.

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  • 2 years later...

Well...

 

A beleaguered SNP 10% ahead of Labour in Westminster election too.

 

:pleasing:

 

Screenshot2023-11-29at12-28-51mastodon_scot.png.d5fc99e6638b56d960b31a372ab0cf5b.png

Edited by Gundermann
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2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


The National, you say?

 

:jjyay:

 

Don't really rate it myself but poll was done by Ipsos.

 

It's also in the more pro-Labour Herald.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23956188.majority-support-independence-snp-lead-new-poll/

Edited by Gundermann
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Dusk_Till_Dawn
3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

IPSOS poll...not a poll of The National's readership 🙄


probably best to crack on with a referendum then 

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Konrad von Carstein
1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


probably best to crack on with a referendum then 

Was merely pointing out that your "win" was pyrrhic...or as the kids would say, "Swing and a miss, Champ" :lol:

 

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It's amazing that with a daily torrent of unionist propaganda from the msm that support for independence has stayed steady, if not increased

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26 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Well...

 

A beleaguered SNP 10% ahead of Labour in Westminster election too.

 

:pleasing:

 

Screenshot2023-11-29at12-28-51mastodon_scot.png.d5fc99e6638b56d960b31a372ab0cf5b.png

Brilliant stuff. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
31 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Was merely pointing out that your "win" was pyrrhic...or as the kids would say, "Swing and a miss, Champ" :lol:

 


All I’m saying, boss man, is that the National’s record of applying cynicism to any of these numbers is not exactly stellar. Fine, objective publication though it is 

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Konrad von Carstein
1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


All I’m saying, boss man, is that the National’s record of applying cynicism to any of these numbers is not exactly stellar. Fine, objective publication though it is 

Name a "newspaper" in the UK that is objective...

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47 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Well...

 

A beleaguered SNP 10% ahead of Labour in Westminster election too.

 

:pleasing:

 

Screenshot2023-11-29at12-28-51mastodon_scot.png.d5fc99e6638b56d960b31a372ab0cf5b.png

It’s “ the national “ I’ve wiped my arse with better paper 

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47 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


The National, you say?

 

:jjyay:

Aye . Yet him and his ilk Constantly condemn others sources ! 

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58 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


The National, you say?

 

:jjyay:

 

Perhaps they did a survey of their readers? Not sure such a small poll would be valid though.

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Fair play for putting your embarrassment to one side but You’d be as well bumping the Santa Claus is real thread, more likely to see him than a referendum. 

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7 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Fair play for putting your embarrassment to one side but You’d be as well bumping the Santa Claus is real thread, more likely to see him than a referendum. 

😂😂😂 

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5 hours ago, Gundermann said:

Well...

 

A beleaguered SNP 10% ahead of Labour in Westminster election too.

 

:pleasing:

 

Screenshot2023-11-29at12-28-51mastodon_scot.png.d5fc99e6638b56d960b31a372ab0cf5b.png

Great shout bringing this thread up.

Can I suggest that all of us who are nationalists not bite into the pettiness of the sturgeon thread.

Let's remember why going it alone beats hanging onto this shit.

And looking forward there's no getting out of this shit while holding onto shit.

 

 

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