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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


Happy Hearts

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Ask Cyclopes he called it near home rule.

There's the problem. There's no scope to they term. Sturgeon described Home Rule as indepndence. The Liberals as federalism with shared powers. Labour going back to Keir-Hardie and the MacDonald government viewed it different still, social powers and employment powers with little tax, the Tories again view it differently.

 

Smith has provided a blue print for now. Income tax, certain economic taxes and increased control of welfare and other related powers. If the SNP want more, it can't just be down to what they want. It has to be a cross-party and cross-UK process including Wales, Northern Ireland, London and English Regions to have some form of balance and equality of power.

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this is why AS can call for an early ref even though he said it was gonna be a generation.

Why is that exactly?

 

Scotland voted No. Salmond & Sturgeon both said it was once in a generation opportunity.

 

Now they're going back on that because they lost & they don't respect democracy.

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Psychedelicropcircle

Why is that exactly?

 

Scotland voted No. Salmond & Sturgeon both said it was once in a generation opportunity.

 

Now they're going back on that because they lost & they don't respect democracy.

Near home rule= Tory trap saying one thing meaning another, tomato tumato, if the polls are to be believed lots of No voters are saying they trust the SNP to look after Scotland's interests, either that or wings has signed up to 1000s of profiles (tripper Johns belief). Imo the party that made a positive case for Scotland and continuing to do so is gaining the trust of Scottish voters the negative Labour Party are now paying a price as it looks insincere to now try and make out were the most Scottish party. They've been all at sea and I don't see change as yet.

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Near home rule= Tory trap saying one thing meaning another, tomato tumato, if the polls are to be believed lots of No voters are saying they trust the SNP to look after Scotland's interests, either that or wings has signed up to 1000s of profiles (tripper Johns belief). Imo the party that made a positive case for Scotland and continuing to do so is gaining the trust of Scottish voters the negative Labour Party are now paying a price as it looks insincere to now try and make out were the most Scottish party. They've been all at sea and I don't see change as yet.

Why are they entitled to call another referendum though?
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Psychedelicropcircle

Why are they entitled to call another referendum though?

They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

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They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

Not really.   Its the same Westminster who would have to agree to a binding referendum.  And they won't in at least a generation.   Yes supporters can beg all they want, but they had their chance, and they blew it.   Except in Weeg and Dundee, the nation decided, and told Eck to shut it.  Interesting that weeg and dundee voted Yes, and Edinburgh and Aberdeen voted No.   That, along with the polls, shows up the wealth and socio-economic factors quite clearly.

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More highly irrelevant stuff from a highly irrelevant paper. That Murray boy has as much chance as your mate from bath having representation of the SNP. One day they'll have a column about wot this oil price is doing to gideons continued failure to make ends meet.

Oil price goes from $60 in 2008 to $110 in 2010 - Tory Chancellor raises the Supplementary Tax on N Sea oil from 20% to 32%.

Oil price goes from $110 to $60 in 2014 - Tory Chancellor reduces the Supplementary Tax on N Sea oil from 32% to 30%.

 

Says it all really.

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Guest Trapper John

Not really.   Its the same Westminster who would have to agree to a binding referendum.  And they won't in at least a generation.   Yes supporters can beg all they want, but they had their chance, and they blew it.   Except in Weeg and Dundee, the nation decided, and told Eck to shut it.  Interesting that weeg and dundee voted Yes, and Edinburgh and Aberdeen voted No.   That, along with the polls, shows up the wealth and socio-economic factors quite clearly.

Says it all really. If the Yes supporters think that Westminster will offer a referendum on the same terms as before they're deluded. They'll never make that mistake again. And as you say, the Nats still blew it.

 

My advice is get used to being a part of and  living in the UK. That's never going to change. Ever.

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My advice is get used to being a part of and  living in the UK. That's never going to change. Ever.

 

 

Brilliant, hard-hitting stuff as ever, Trapper John.

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Guest Trapper John

They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

Dream on. 'Westminster' has learned a helluva lot more from this referendum than the Nats ever will. If you think the British state which has existed for three hundred years and has seen off all kinds of threats, will allow 1.6m people  to dictate to the other 60m you're living in a fantasy world.

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Guest Trapper John

Brilliant, hard-hitting stuff as ever, Trapper John.

He said from his But and Ben in the good old US of A.

 

You know it and I know it. Scotland will never be Independent.

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Guest Trapper John

Tripper John there are no tanks in Baghdad.

And there are not enough Yes votes in Scotland, for all the pseudo-intellectual garbage spouted on this thread where all you guys can congregate and give each other emotional support. The People spoke and they said No.

 

Democracy is a pisser.

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And there are not enough Yes votes in Scotland, for all the pseudo-intellectual garbage spouted on this thread where all you guys can congregate and give each other emotional support. The People spoke and they said No.

 

Democracy is a pisser.

A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

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Guest Trapper John

A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

That sums the Nats up perfectly. They want the Tories back regardless of the effect they'll have on their fellow Scots in the pipe dream of an independent Scotland being realised on the back of it. The Tories didn't give up Northern Ireland for all of thirty years of bloodshed. They won't give up Scotland either. 

 

You can flood online polls with all the SNP supporters you can find but it'll be a different story on election day.

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A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

 

UKIP are on the collapse in the polls. Farage is was the most disliked leader in the UK in recent polling (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/27/first-time-voters-eu-2015-election-farage-labour). There will not be 20-30 seats for UKIP to help make them a party capable of being able to provide a coalition government. So no Tory-UKIP. Most likely is a Tory-LibDem or a Tory minority backed by Liberals and or the SNP, or the other way around with Labour in coalition with the LibDems or Labour in minority supported by the LibDems, SNP and DUP. So we can move that one to the side.

 

The only way you will get an in/out referendum is a Tory majority. And I cannot see that happening.

 

So the other way to get another referendum is an SNP majority in 2016 without a Tory backed in/out referendum in Scotland which places a second vote at the heart of it's manifesto based on either (1) Smith not being enough for them or (2) that they feel the polls are actually with them this time. 

 

The issue that people forget is Cameron and Osbourne don't want to leave the EU. They want to renegotiate membership for the UK, ie more opt-outs, and put that revised membership to the people for ratification. In effect, they want the benefits of the EU without the burdens. It's nutters like Farage that want none of it. Even Salmond was calling on a Scottish membership to have "enhanced" opt-outs for Scotland based on improving and altering those the UK has now had we voted Yes. In effect, the mainstream mood in the UK, unless you're a Labour or LibDem leader is to renegotiate membership in some shape or forma and put it to the people. The Greens, SNP, Tories and UKIP all want an EU referendum in some shape or form.

Edited by JamboX2
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Geoff Kilpatrick

Why are Nats so convinced that Scotland would vote to stay in the EU? If the UK votes Yes in that referendum, it would put the UK on the path to Euro federalism, because Merkel will not renegotiate the terms of any treaty. Euro federalism would lead to the same restrictions on sovereignity, if not worse.

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ToadKiller Dog

Why are Nats so convinced that Scotland would vote to stay in the EU? If the UK votes Yes in that referendum, it would put the UK on the path to Euro federalism, because Merkel will not renegotiate the terms of any treaty. Euro federalism would lead to the same restrictions on sovereignity, if not worse.

Think most polls have in Scotland around 60% wanting to stay with less than 40% rest of UK .

of course majority of folk likely haven't thought to deep about the question yet .

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Psychedelicropcircle

[quote name="Trapper John" post="4608760" timestamp="141998849

 

You can flood online polls with all the SNP supporters you can find but it'll be a different story on election day.

 

Haha we were reminded throughout the indyref how the polls were accurate and to deal with it.....now the 'to wee to stupid' preachers are looking like taking a dry length in the polls it's those nasty cyber nats.

 

I'll say it again ' there are no tanks in Baghdad'

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A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

Do you think this is part of the reason the SNP want to get rid of labour?

 

I think it's a bit of a myth that Scotland is much more proEU and anti trident than England. The polls don't show much of a difference.

 

IMO just a tool to peddle division by a party that knows it can only succeed through creating division.

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Unless Nationalism now has the answer to the currency question and people won't have a genuine fear of job losses they'll get hammered again.

 

Fundamentalists thinking that a swing in the polls towards the SNP means that No voters regret their decision in September and would vote differently a second time? Brilliant. Let's do it again then.

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Haha we were reminded throughout the indyref how the polls were accurate and to deal with it.....now the 'to wee to stupid' preachers are looking like taking a dry length in the polls it's those nasty cyber nats.

 

I'll say it again ' there are no tanks in Baghdad'

When are you lot going to stop this 'too wee too poor' nonsense?

 

It's a phrase coined by a nationalist, used by nationalists to smear those that dare question nationalists.

 

I see last night on Facebook a SNP councillor was urging his followers to think carefully about what taxi firm they used in the future after he 'named and shamed' a small local taxi business for driving people to polling stations for free & supporting better together. An elected official actively trying to damage a local business in his area for not agreeing with his politics. How people can vote for this deeply sinister mob is beyond me.

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When are you lot going to stop this 'too wee too poor' nonsense?

 

It's a phrase coined by a nationalist, used by nationalists to smear those that dare question nationalists.

 

I see last night on Facebook a SNP councillor was urging his followers to think carefully about what taxi firm they used in the future after he 'named and shamed' a small local taxi business for driving people to polling stations for free & supporting better together. An elected official actively trying to damage a local business in his area for not agreeing with his politics. How people can vote for this deeply sinister mob is beyond me.

Don't forget a lot of Yes voters in were swayed by the "We Hate Tory Toffs" campaign so they can also be swayed by disgraceful tactics by this SNP Councillor.     And SNP wanted a "Fairer Scotland"?   Stroll on if thats the people who would be governing us. 

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SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

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SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

 

I got called a fascist on many occasions leading up to the 18th. Sticks and Stones 

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Think most polls have in Scotland around 60% wanting to stay with less than 40% rest of UK .

of course majority of folk likely haven't thought to deep about the question yet .

Think there's mixed polling here for the UK. Most British citizens want the benefits of the EU and back free movement and trade massively. Ive seen polls which don't show that and polls saying most Brits want to stay in.

 

It's when immigration, an emotive issue for many in the south coast of England is thrown in it changes.

 

Scots aren't massively pro-EU. Social attitudes surveys show largely similar and consistent opinions between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland on the EU. In fact the SNP MEP, Alan Smyth, didn't deny that in the campaign. He also added that the SNP, like the Tories, were opposed to 'ever closer union' and wanted to see a reform of the EU. That language is euroskeptic-light and is in line with the social attitude surveys on Scotland. I believe the White paper was very much pro-membership, but like the British position, looked to get as many opt-outs as it could from Treaties. So where's the difference?

 

Personally, I'm pro-EU. I don't believe it's right that Germany throws it's weight about with France in the Eurozone as that is becoming a massive democratic deficit for nations like Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc, but let's not kid ourself a Sterlingzone would've been any different with London and the rUK with Scotland.

Edited by JamboX2
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The EU is another example of where the SNP and Tory policy is hugely aligned, despite the formers vain attempts to say the parties have nothing in common. There's a reason the Conservatives were selected/begged to prop up the minority SNP government for four years - huge amount in common under Salmond's leadership.

 

Not so much now though as Nicola will cause a genuine shift to the left in certain areas. Already that is causing some issues in traditional affluent/rural whatever you want to call them SNP areas, but of course those aren't the votes Sturgeon wants. She will happily lose groubd and maybe a seat or two in those areas and alienate that group of core support if she is able to mop up Labour in the west.

 

Interesting times ahead for sure, especially if Salmond continues to try to steal the limelight and at some point makes the odd comment which doesn't sit with what Sturgeon is trying to achieve. It might not happen, but im not sure he can help himself.

 

Also UKIP will be lucky ti get 6 seats. The idea of a Tory/UKIP coalition is nonsense put out by a desperate Labour party.

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jack D and coke

SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

I got called a fascist on many occasions leading up to the 18th. Sticks and Stones

Correct.

 

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

 

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

 

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

 

Guys.......it's boring beyond ****ing belief now. Move on.....

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Correct.

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

Guys.......it's boring beyond ******* belief now. Move on.....

Actually, it's only just starting again. Watch. There'll be another referendum after 2016. Or SNP influence at the top of the UK will tar them wih the brush of insiders when they make the compromises their leadership already acknowledgenthey will.

 

As with Clegg wrongly putting constitutional reform at the heart of the LibDems in 2010 coalition talks, Sturgeon has laid the ground work to be a let down on Trident in the coming Parliament. A free vote in the Commons is the way around is deal here and there's enough outside the LibDems, Anti-Trident Labour and the SNP to renew.

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Guest Trapper John

Correct.

 

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

 

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

 

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

 

Guys.......it's boring beyond ******* belief now. Move on.....

 

For once, I agree with you.

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jack D and coke

For once, I agree with you.

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

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Guest Trapper John

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

It was bloody awful and thank God its over.

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Guest oldcastlerock2012

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

I accept the result like I accept the result of a defeat to Hibs. Doesn't mean I don't want the chance to reverse the result later though.

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jack D and coke

It was bloody awful and thank God its over.

I don't think it was entirely awful myself. It was a question that had to be asked without a shadow of a doubt. We had to ask ourselves a lot of awkward questions and we got an answer and I accept it. It wasn't what I voted for but that's it over for me.

 

Granted it got bogged down towards the end but that reflects badly on the people in positions of power in these islands not the people themselves.

 

We will never know what would've happened had it went the other way now so the arguing is all a bit pointless.

 

But a pointless excercise? Not at all.

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Rand Paul's Ray Bans

IMO just a tool to peddle division by a party that knows it can only succeed through creating division.

 

Labour and Conservatives have used division tactics for years. 

 

But that's okay, I'm assuming.

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jack D and coke

Labour and Conservatives have used division tactics for years.

 

But that's okay, I'm assuming.

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

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I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

Labour are proper vermin.

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

Dunno. Murphy put himself out there. He got egged. The boy was prosecuted as anyone breaching the peace should. Dunno if the boy makes Nats scum. Thats a substantive interpretation as to whether they become scum. Never subscribed to it myself.

 

Dunno what they sewed. But they did have dreadful leaders who couldn't speak in public and looked ghastly on TV. If anything bad leadership is labours bug bear in Scotland.

 

From those i know who are active in Labour, no one cared about the egging. Nobody really paid it much notice. And all couldn't belive Murphy called it off after it. Mad. Again, shoot yourself in the foot.

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Rand Paul's Ray Bans

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

 

Yep - I'm not condoning how the SNP use division tactics as well, but unfortunately these tactics have been used in the past and will be used in the future by political parties. It's distasteful, but it's common denominator stuff; and it works.  

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Guest Trapper John

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

 

Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

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jack D and coke

Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

Don't take it so seriously man. I don't particularly like labour I'm sure your aware of that. I hate the way they've manipulated scotland for years and their little cliquey councils all over the country get my goat. I've actually voted labour in the past btw but I, like many many scots have had enough of them right now. It might not always be that way but at the moment that's the way it is.

 

I find it pretty amusing that they are getting a dose of their own medicine from the snp these days and they have absolutely no idea how to deal with it.

 

Don't take it personally.

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Don't take it so seriously man. I don't particularly like labour I'm sure your aware of that. I hate the way they've manipulated scotland for years and their little cliquey councils all over the country get my goat. I've actually voted labour in the past btw but I, like many many scots have had enough of them right now. It might not always be that way but at the moment that's the way it is.

I find it pretty amusing that they are getting a dose of their own medicine from the snp these days and they have absolutely no idea how to deal with it.

Don't take it personally.

It's a crisis of their own making. But the signs are the SNP are just replacing Labour cliques, backroom deals and vested interests. Out with the old, in with the old it seems.

 

If we're wanting a new and more directly democratic Scotland it's not them.

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If we're wanting a new and more directly democratic Scotland it's not them.

We'll never get the above unless

 

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

 

Or

 

ii) Independence is achieved.

Edited by Boris
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Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

This post by you was equally stupid.

 

"The English do not vote for extremists in general elections. They are in the main a tolerant and libertarian people who will see through all that UKIP crap.

 

Unlike the Scots who have a authoritarian streak and at the moment, apparently have a Leaderprincip infatuation with our own homegrown extremists."

 

You can't post something as ridiculous as the above and then call someone else out for doing the same. You seem to resort to reductio at Hitlerum quite a lot too.

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We'll never get the above unless

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

Or

ii) Independence is achieved.

Again I think that's too simplistic. You'd need to elect politicians wanting to give us a more democratic, open and less controlled society. The SNP didn't offer that through independnece. Their idea of more democracy wasn't engagement or a fairer voting system or more local power, it was removal of the UK electorate from the concept of democracy in Scotland. That's not more direct and it's not a change to what we have now.

 

You will only get societal change by voting for those who offer it. Independence as offered was the same system with central government in Edinburh not London. And from the way Scotland's electorate votes we don't vote for parties who favour a more direct form of democracy (the Greens, SSP, LibDems) enough to give us that. Height of us voting for those parties was 2003. Now it's largely squeezed between two parties offering more of the same with wee differences in packaging.

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TheMaganator

We'll never get the above unless

 

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

 

Or

 

ii) Independence is achieved.

Who is offering what you seek if independence is achieved?

 

For it to happen in an independent Scotland there'd need to be demand for it. I don't see where that demand is coming from. It's not a reason to vote Yes.

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Guest Trapper John

This post by you was equally stupid.

 

"The English do not vote for extremists in general elections. They are in the main a tolerant and libertarian people who will see through all that UKIP crap.

 

Unlike the Scots who have a authoritarian streak and at the moment, apparently have a Leaderprincip infatuation with our own homegrown extremists."

 

You can't post something as ridiculous as the above and then call someone else out for doing the same. You seem to resort to reductio at Hitlerum quite a lot too.

 

What's ridiculous about it? Too near the truth for you to tolerate? And you seem to know plenty about Hitlerum...

 

Labelling your political opponents as 'vermin' reeks of 'Hitlerum'.

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