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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


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Guest Trapper John

He can't help himself. Became used to being treated like a King by his followers.

 

He then lost the referendum, had to stand down and will now have to fight for limelight. I bet Sturgeon probably wishes he'd GTF

 

Taxi driver's will say anything for a tip...

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The White Cockade

Salmond or Sturgeon in the limelight - who cares?

The SNP are still dominating Scottish politics

The other three established parties are political pygmies at the moment

In a UK context the same three parties are also in turmoil otherwise Farrage's pitiful

UKIP wouldn't be posing such athtreat

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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/20/alex-salmond-peasants-revolt-type-referendum-abolish-house-of-lords?CMP=share_btn_t

Salmond calling for a peasants revolt over the Lords in England.

 

Can you imagine the pant wetting if an English politician had called for that in Scotland?

 

The internet would have exploded with the faux outrage of the 45

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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/20/alex-salmond-peasants-revolt-type-referendum-abolish-house-of-lords?CMP=share_btn_t

Salmond calling for a peasants revolt over the Lords in England.

 

Can you imagine the pant wetting if an English politician had called for that in Scotland?

 

The internet would have exploded with the faux outrage of the 45

 

The Conservatives should offer a "We'll abolish the House of Lords and the Scottish Parliament" compromise.

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Guest Trapper John

there is certainly faux outrage on here for sure

 

Nothing faux about it.

 

Salmond is outrageous. A taxi driver tells him he'd vote differently next time therefore Alex concludes another referendum is required.

 

The only certainty about that story is that Eck would have asked the driver for a receipt.

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The White Cockade

hopefully the next fererendum will see a Yes vote

if at first you don't succeed, Robert the Bruce and the spider etc

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hopefully the next fererendum will see a Yes vote

if at first you don't succeed, Robert the Bruce and the spider etc

 

What about "You asked us, suspending government for two years, we said No, now you don't accept and want to suspend government permanently"?

 

Na, the gowd said No. No means No.

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Guest Trapper John

What about "You asked us, suspending government for two years, we said No, now you don't accept and want to suspend government permanently"?

 

Na, the gowd said No. No means No.

 

There's nothing like the sovereign will of the people and once in a generation, indeed once in a lifetime...the tide of history, its in our grasp...day of reckoning... ad nauseum.

 

Celtic Tiger, Iceland, Norwegian oil fund, hidden oilfields, oil price at $113 a barrel, advice from the EU...balance of power in Westminster..Has the man ever been right about anything?

 

He even cheats at Scrabble.

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There's nothing like the sovereign will of the people and once in a generation, indeed once in a lifetime...the tide of history, its in our grasp...day of reckoning... ad nauseum.

 

Celtic Tiger, Iceland, Norwegian oil fund, hidden oilfields, oil price at $113 a barrel, advice from the EU...balance of power in Westminster..Has the man ever been right about anything?

 

He even cheats at Scrabble.

 

Now, I'm a semi-serious Scrabble player. That is an especially low blow.

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I kind of feel that the SNP are playing a cynical game. Contrast their announcements in comparison to the Greens or SSP. Whilst all 3 were clearly disappointed by the outcome the SNP have by far been reluctant and very quick to cry foul. They belittled Smith whilst it was running. And since its delivery it has claimed it has betrayed the people and have set the framework for another vote by fostering a resentment.

 

The position is flawed. There was no clear structure or aim for Smith. No shape to what quasi-federalism is meant Smith could deliver whatever and it'd be a win. Much like Salmond's devo-max idea of old, it lacked shape and different parties were able fill a void with their vision. It's therefore vacuous to suggest betrayal as there was no promise beyond more powers.

 

Smith had time to be a 4 stage process - 1. What does the Scottish Parliament do now? 2. What should it do and how it relates to other devolved institutions and Westminster? 3. What extra powers it needs? 4. What extra resource it needs to make this a reality?

 

It didn't. It was a bidding process and mess. It's allowed the SNP to cry foul and make out it failed. It wasn't good enough a process to consider this and by its nature it has allowed this Salmond argument to run of betrayal. As a result the SNP, if they win 20+ seats will and don't get the concessions they want (Smith+ - ie corporation tax etc) then they will run an election to hold a new referendum, and it'll be a snap referendum imo. This is a mess. But it's a mess because of cynicism and opportunism by the SNP which treats democracy as nothing more than a doormat and becuase the no parties have put no great strategic thinking into their plans beyond Smith. It's a farce and one which is treating voters of both camps like they're idiots.

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Guest Trapper John

I kind of feel that the SNP are playing a cynical game. Contrast their announcements in comparison to the Greens or SSP. Whilst all 3 were clearly disappointed by the outcome the SNP have by far been reluctant and very quick to cry foul. They belittled Smith whilst it was running. And since its delivery it has claimed it has betrayed the people and have set the framework for another vote by fostering a resentment.

 

The position is flawed. There was no clear structure or aim for Smith. No shape to what quasi-federalism is meant Smith could deliver whatever and it'd be a win. Much like Salmond's devo-max idea of old, it lacked shape and different parties were able fill a void with their vision. It's therefore vacuous to suggest betrayal as there was no promise beyond more powers.

 

Smith had time to be a 4 stage process - 1. What does the Scottish Parliament do now? 2. What should it do and how it relates to other devolved institutions and Westminster? 3. What extra powers it needs? 4. What extra resource it needs to make this a reality?

 

It didn't. It was a bidding process and mess. It's allowed the SNP to cry foul and make out it failed. It wasn't good enough a process to consider this and by its nature it has allowed this Salmond argument to run of betrayal. As a result the SNP, if they win 20+ seats will and don't get the concessions they want (Smith+ - ie corporation tax etc) then they will run an election to hold a new referendum, and it'll be a snap referendum imo. This is a mess. But it's a mess because of cynicism and opportunism by the SNP which treats democracy as nothing more than a doormat and becuase the no parties have put no great strategic thinking into their plans beyond Smith. It's a farce and one which is treating voters of both camps like they're idiots.

 

 

There's no secret to what the SNP are. They want all or nothing; they're a nationalist movement after all. Why debate it ad nauseum?

 

They've been shown the door by the Scottish people and as a nationalist movement that is a historical anomaly which is deeply shameful and embarrassing to them no matter the bluster they show. And particularly painful to them when they next meet their chums from places like Catalonia for a sing-song and group huddle.

 

They do not care a damn about running Scotland effectively. All they want is one thing and they'll do and say anything to get it.

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There's no secret to what the SNP are. They want all or nothing; they're a nationalist movement after all. Why debate it ad nauseum?

 

They've been shown the door by the Scottish people and as a nationalist movement that is a historical anomaly which is deeply shameful and embarrassing to them no matter the bluster they show. And particularly painful to them when they next meet their chums from places like Catalonia for a sing-song and group huddle.

 

They do not care a damn about running Scotland effectively. All they want is one thing and they'll do and say anything to get it.

:cornette:  :gok:  :trippin:

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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/548127/SNP-white-paper-costs-reach-2-5m-Alex-Salmond-independence

 

?2.5m for the White Paper & Swinney waits until most MSPs have left for Christmas to announce it.

 

The SNP should pay for it. It was a work of fantasy. A manifesto of porky pies that tried to trick is into voting Yes.

 

What was it? 2 pages out of 600 odd on the economy? A disgrace

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Even by the now circle jerk standards of this thread that's reaching. The democratically elected government of the country should refund public spending on things I don't individually approve of because: reasons. Sounds like a sensible precedent to set.

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There's no secret to what the SNP are. They want all or nothing; they're a nationalist movement after all. Why debate it ad nauseum?

 

They've been shown the door by the Scottish people and as a nationalist movement that is a historical anomaly which is deeply shameful and embarrassing to them no matter the bluster they show. And particularly painful to them when they next meet their chums from places like Catalonia for a sing-song and group huddle.

 

They do not care a damn about running Scotland effectively. All they want is one thing and they'll do and say anything to get it.

Thing is my post is also directed at the No camp which monumentally screwed up. Cameron going awol on EVEL handed the Yes camp a means to hit them over the head before the Smith commission ran. Both sides have utterly failed the Scottish people. It's a shambles.

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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/548127/SNP-white-paper-costs-reach-2-5m-Alex-Salmond-independence

 

?2.5m for the White Paper & Swinney waits until most MSPs have left for Christmas to announce it.

 

The SNP should pay for it. It was a work of fantasy. A manifesto of porky pies that tried to trick is into voting Yes.

 

What was it? 2 pages out of 600 odd on the economy? A disgrace

No. They won an election. They were the government they can publish it if they want. It was their policy.

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Has Fat smuggy Eck Salmond been spraffing something about an English referendum? 

 

I'll assume it's about EVEL or English Parliament. 

 

Good idea from Eck, would give the idea legitimacy, rather than have Tories(eg.John Redwood) constantly whine on about how the idea was in their UK manifesto 13/9/4.5yrs ago.  

 

I might even get a vote in that referendum.

 

(Apologies if already mentioned.)

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Government with landslide mandate spending money to meet manifesto promises shocker. :vrface:

Based on the outcome a significant majority clearly viewed it a pointless two year exercise and Imo I can think of many better ways to have spent that money. And better ways government could've spent its time. But they won an election and it was a manifesto commitment.

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Guest Trapper John

Thing is my post is also directed at the No camp which monumentally screwed up. Cameron going awol on EVEL handed the Yes camp a means to hit them over the head before the Smith commission ran. Both sides have utterly failed the Scottish people. It's a shambles.

 

It might be a shambles to you but most people just want to get on with their lives now and couldn't care less. As for all these polls you can take them any way you like but when Joan McAlpine calls on yes voters to sign up in their droves to YouGov (Mr Murdoch's organisation by the way) and you think they present a true picture of intentions then that's up to you.

 

The fact is Smith delivered more than was expected. Of course the SNP won't be happy with it. As Cameron said to Sturgeon, stop bleating and get on with it.

 

SNP, the only party that makes even the Tories look respectable.

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jambos are go!

The more the SNP get embroiled in the Wesminster village the happier Unionists should be. The fall in the oil price would cost each and every Scot a ?1000 as pointed out in the FT if we had voted YES. That shortfall will be shared and mitigated by whole of the UK who will enjoy greater growth on the back of lower energy prices. That is a fact and not a debating point and Unionists should hammer that home.

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What a strange thing to say.

 

Yes, it was, apologies, it doesn't read as I intended it. Mods, could you delete my post and Boris's quote of it, please?

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Yes, it was, apologies, it doesn't read as I intended it. Mods, could you delete my post and Boris's quote of it, please?

 

Oh, don't worry about it.  S'all cool in Tsarskoye Selo. :thumb:

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jack D and coke

The more the SNP get embroiled in the Wesminster village the happier Unionists should be. The fall in the oil price would cost each and every Scot a ?1000 as pointed out in the FT if we had voted YES. That shortfall will be shared and mitigated by whole of the UK who will enjoy greater growth on the back of lower energy prices. That is a fact and not a debating point and Unionists should hammer that home.

We wouldn't be independent yet so it wouldn't have cost us anything.

 

Why not discuss the oil price in say 2 years?

 

If your like most No voters and not prepared to admit we would've been minted in the 30 years previous when we were being lied to by WM governments then why bang about something that wouldn't have happened yet either?

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We wouldn't be independent yet so it wouldn't have cost us anything.

 

Why not discuss the oil price in say 2 years?

 

If your like most No voters and not prepared to admit we would've been minted in the 30 years previous when we were being lied to by WM governments then why bang about something that wouldn't have happened yet either?

 

It's interesting how vociferous some sections of NO voters are these days about the SNP.  It's almost as if they realise that the referendum may well have been a Pyrrhic victory.

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Guest Trapper John

It's interesting how vociferous some sections of NO voters are these days about the SNP.  It's almost as if they realise that the referendum may well have been a Pyrrhic victory.

No, not vociferous, merely holding them to account. 

 

You're allowed to do that in democracy.

 

And the 'No' side are heavily outnumbered on this forum as you well know, or are you happy for us just to disappear?

 

If we do we'll be back come election time. Count on it.

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I thank you Jambo X2.

 

I won't hold my breath for the apology from deeside tho.

Thats because you wont get one. If you seriously think the global oil price is being manipulated by London and Washington good luck to you.   Its a global open market based on supply and demand, it always has been, and always will be.

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It's interesting how vociferous some sections of NO voters are these days about the SNP.  It's almost as if they realise that the referendum may well have been a Pyrrhic victory.

Not really.  I get aggravated because Yes keep on claiming that somehow they "won".   Well they did win in Dundee and East Glasgow schemes I suppose.       But everywhere else they got hammered.  

 

Anyway I think Ecks attempt to win Gordon is not going to be as easy as people think, especially if he maintains the smug method of campaigining.

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It's interesting how vociferous some sections of NO voters are these days about the SNP.  It's almost as if they realise that the referendum may well have been a Pyrrhic victory.

I have always loathed them. 

 

Apart from their grubby politics which I have covered at length on here - I don't like how their supporters never criticise them. They do not hold them to account.

 

If I was a SNP supporter I would be livid at the state of the White Paper, amongst other things. But  they are not. And they wont be. Because they will never publicaly criticise their party. Which means we have a majority government that is not held to account. Its rank rotten. I know you are not a SNP man so this must concern you?

 

They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it. Why? Because their end goal is independence and their supporters, some would call them zealots, care only about gaining independence - and nothing else matters to them.  

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Guest Trapper John

I have always loathed them. 

 

Apart from their grubby politics which I have covered at length on here - I don't like how their supporters never criticise them. They do not hold them to account.

 

If I was a SNP supporter I would be livid at the state of the White Paper, amongst other things. But  they are not. And they wont be. Because they will never publicaly criticise their party. Which means we have a majority government that is not held to account. Its rank rotten. I know you are not a SNP man so this must concern you?

 

They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it. Why? Because their end goal is independence and their supporters, some would call them zealots, care only about gaining independence - and nothing else matters to them.  

 

 

Superb riposte, Mag.

 

Yer no bad for a Tory.

 

:spoton:

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jack D and coke

It's interesting how vociferous some sections of NO voters are these days about the SNP. It's almost as if they realise that the referendum may well have been a Pyrrhic victory.

Exactly. They're the only ones who won't stop banging on about it.

 

I said at the time I didn't believe, whatever way it went, that it would be any reason for anyone to gloat or rub anyone's nose in it for a number or reasons but some No voters are appearing to be getting more bitter despite actually getting the result they wanted.

 

Bizarre.

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I have always loathed them. 

 

Apart from their grubby politics which I have covered at length on here - I don't like how their supporters never criticise them. They do not hold them to account.

 

If I was a SNP supporter I would be livid at the state of the White Paper, amongst other things. But  they are not. And they wont be. Because they will never publicaly criticise their party. Which means we have a majority government that is not held to account. Its rank rotten. I know you are not a SNP man so this must concern you?

 

They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it. Why? Because their end goal is independence and their supporters, some would call them zealots, care only about gaining independence - and nothing else matters to them.  

 

Be careful when hunting monsters

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Exactly. They're the only ones who won't stop banging on about it.

 

I said at the time I didn't believe, whatever way it went, that it would be any reason for anyone to gloat or rub anyone's nose in it for a number or reasons but some No voters are appearing to be getting more bitter despite actually getting the result they wanted.

 

Bizarre.

The only people banging on about anything are the same half dozen or so posters from the big independence thread. From the losing side mostly. In the real world the majority of Scots have moved on and are delighted with the part they played in saving our country.

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jack D and coke

The only people banging on about anything are the same half dozen or so posters from the big independence thread. From the losing side mostly. In the real world the majority of Scots have moved on and are delighted with the part they played in saving our country.

Really? Imo it's the "winners" who are constantly bringing it up[emoji1]

 

I myself have moved on and don't mention it to anyone really unless they bring it up first and in my opinion it's No voters again.

 

Give it a rest ffs[emoji1]

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I have always loathed them.

 

Apart from their grubby politics which I have covered at length on here - I don't like how their supporters never criticise them. They do not hold them to account.

 

If I was a SNP supporter I would be livid at the state of the White Paper, amongst other things. But they are not. And they wont be. Because they will never publicaly criticise their party. Which means we have a majority government that is not held to account. Its rank rotten. I know you are not a SNP man so this must concern you?

 

They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it. Why? Because their end goal is independence and their supporters, some would call them zealots, care only about gaining independence - and nothing else matters to them.

 

When it comes to "grubby", you should really be paying more attention to your new-found friends in the Labour party - the party that gave us Jim Devine, Anne Moffat, Eric Joyce, Mick Martin and the entire Glasgow mafia, to mention but a few. The very epitome of graft and corruption for decades now in all areas of Scottish politics, but as long as they voted No with you, that's fine.

 

The last part of your post just doesn't make sense. They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it? Were you complaining about this when the Tories were in power at Westminster for an eternity from 1979 onwards and did a lot of things many people in the UK found abhorrent? We have these things called elections - if sufficient numbers of people are as upset about the SNP as you are, they will be voted out at the next Holyrood election.

Edited by leginten
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Guest Trapper John

Really? Imo it's the "winners" who are constantly bringing it up[emoji1]

 

I myself have moved on and don't mention it to anyone really unless they bring it up first and in my opinion it's No voters again.

 

Give it a rest ffs[emoji1]

 

Apres moi le deluge.

 

Here come all the 'good' losers.

 

It all started with the beloved child and his mini-me not turning up for the reconciliation service. A pointer to the future.

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jack D and coke

Apres moi le deluge.

 

Here come all the 'good' losers.

 

It all started with the beloved child and his mini-me not turning up for the reconciliation service. A pointer to the future.

Sorry man I'm not with you?

 

Why don't you prattle on about the oil price again or that you've saved us all or Jim "big hitter" Murphy at least I know what your going on about[emoji1]

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When it comes to "grubby", you should really be paying more attention to your new-found friends in the Labour party - the party that gave us Jim Devine, Anne Moffat, Eric Joyce, Mick Martin and the entire Glasgow mafia, to mention but a few. The very epitome of graft and corruption for decades now in all areas of Scottish politics, but as long as they voted No with you, that's fine.

 

The last part of your post just doesn't make sense. They can literally do what they like and not be held to account for it? Were you complaining about this when the Tories were in power at Westminster for an eternity from 1979 onwards and did a lot of things many people in the UK found abhorrent? We have these things called elections - if sufficient numbers of people are as upset about the SNP as you are, they will be voted out at the next Holyrood election.

It makes perfect sense.

 

When you have supporters of a party who will vote for them regardless of their performance because of what they stand for (ie independence) they are not being held to account. When you couple that with the fact that their supporters do not criticise them that makes the situation even worse.

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Guest Trapper John

It makes perfect sense.

 

When you have supporters of a party who will vote for them regardless of their performance because of what they stand for (ie independence) they are not being held to account. When you couple that with the fact that their supporters do not criticise them that makes the situation even worse.

 

The biggest trick the SNP ever pulled was convincing enough people they are a political party with credible policies.

 

They've done well on that score if virtually on nothing else.

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