Vegans

[milky_26]

10 hours ago, Smithee said:

Maybe you can answer this. I've wondered what the problem actually is with processed foods - is it more about what's generally added to then rather than the fact they've gone through processes that's the problem?

I mean, take burgers. If I go to a posh burger place, they take mince and squeeze it in a mould. So that's basically meat that's been minced and shaped then cooked- is that not just the same as having some nice mince or even some unminced beef?

Strangely a couple of days ago I watched a program which takes a little about "processed" foods and cancer. In packet ham one of the preservatives has links to cancer but to increase your chances of getting cancer you would need to eat 2 slices a day, everyday. Also in the smoke when smoking food there is some of the carcinogenic chemicals that area in cigarettes

[gordiegords]

Been vegan for four years now, I just couldn’t justify paying someone else to needlessly stab an animal in the throat for my taste buds, to be honest I don’t know many folk that want to harm animals, I guess it’s just about wanting to line up my morals with my actions, for me anyway. 

[Highlander]

On 03/12/2018 at 14:00, Ray Gin said:

 

You didn't think to tell her you were vegan when she invited you?

 

No, it really did not occur to me Ray. 

It was simply a case of being invited and it being the right thing to do to accept her hospitality.

I have been in the same situation since and specified my preference.  

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Spitonastranger said:

Rape, murder, exploitation and abuse are funny.

What are you on about? 

[Highlander]

On 02/12/2018 at 08:05, cosanostra said:

I managed 2 weeks and found it incredibly difficult. I must admit that it felt completely different from being vegetarian.

I don't think I've ever slept so well, had so much energy or just felt as good in my bones and joints. It was horrible and a massive pain in the arse sticking to it but I can 100% understand why people get into it and stick to it. It felt genuinely great but ultimately i could never stick it out.

 

This is a fascinating post! And I appreciate your honesty. Unsurprisingly, I can fully understand the physical health benefits you describe. 

 

19 hours ago, Wham Bam Austin McCann said:

Her big brother is a vegan and an "extremist" one so I really can't be bothered arguing with anyone so please don't think i want one because i'm tired of even hearing the word vegan but can someone please enlighten me on the health benefits of eating purely processed foods, over say my 'diet'.

 

I am not trying to argue or debate, i just want to know why substituting that with "fake" meat would have any health benefit?

 

Hey Austin, as a fellow Jambo living in the same city as you, you are on friendly turf. I am also neither an extremist nor an expert. 

You are also right to raise the lack of sense in substituting real meat with fake meat. Personally, I cannae go the likes of fake bacon. Unless it is Linda McCartney's awesome vegan sausages as part of a cooked breakfast, it generally gi'es me the boak! Plus, it is also helpful for fellow vegans to remember that there are always anomalies in the traditional vegan diet, like the recent evidence surfacing over the last year to suggest that the likes of soya is as, if not more, harmful than real milk so it is not always the clean sweep that one is better than the other. 

However, on the other side, the evidence is pretty weighty that going plant-based, by contrast to a meat-based diet, is healthier. The best piece of solid empirical research I have encountered is The China Study. If you have access to Netflix, 'Fork Over Knives' gives an excellent overview of the study, which was initially conducted by two non-vegan omnivores, and has become a world-leading piece of research. It is fairly easy to pick up on Amazon, eBay and, for all I know, there is probably an online version too. Rather than giving you 30 books to read, I would start there if you are interested in exploring it from an impartial viewpoint. 

[Taffin]

21 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

This is a fascinating post! And I appreciate your honesty. Unsurprisingly, I can fully understand the physical health benefits you describe. 

 

 

Hey Austin, as a fellow Jambo living in the same city as you, you are on friendly turf. I am also neither an extremist nor an expert. 

You are also right to raise the lack of sense in substituting real meat with fake meat. Personally, I cannae go the likes of fake bacon. Unless it is Linda McCartney's awesome vegan sausages as part of a cooked breakfast, it generally gi'es me the boak! Plus, it is also helpful for fellow vegans to remember that there are always anomalies in the traditional vegan diet, like the recent evidence surfacing over the last year to suggest that the likes of soya is as, if not more, harmful than real milk so it is not always the clean sweep that one is better than the other. 

However, on the other side, the evidence is pretty weighty that going plant-based, by contrast to a meat-based diet, is healthier. The best piece of solid empirical research I have encountered is The China Study. If you have access to Netflix, 'Fork Over Knives' gives an excellent overview of the study, which was initially conducted by two non-vegan omnivores, and has become a world-leading piece of research. It is fairly easy to pick up on Amazon, eBay and, for all I know, there is probably an online version too. Rather than giving you 30 books to read, I would start there if you are interested in exploring it from an impartial viewpoint. 

 

 

What's this about milk? I wasn't aware it was harmful, maybe it will be the next thing for me to cut out.

 

Out of interest what is it that makes a vegan diet healthier? 

 

By way of eliminating a large number of food groups Is it not less 'healthy'? An omnivore can eat everything a vegan can and supplement with animal produce as and when appropriate. Just by adding eggs for example is surely a health benefit?

 

Also, does it not entail eating a staggering amount of carbs? There seems to be pretty compelling evidence that a high fat, low carb diet rather than the typical western diet is the way to go. Is that hard to achieve eating a vegan diet? Or is a vegan diet better still than that?

 

Sorry for all the questions. Genuinely curious as I like to eat as nutritionally as possible

Edited December 4, 2018 by Taffin

[gordiegords]

13 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

What's this about milk? I wasn't aware it was harmful, maybe it will be the next thing for me to cut out.

 

Out of interest what is it that makes a vegan diet healthier? 

 

By way of eliminating a large number of food groups Is it not less 'healthy'? An omnivore can eat everything a vegan can and supplement with animal produce as and when appropriate. Just by adding eggs for example is surely a health benefit?

 

Also, does it not entail eating a staggering amount of carbs? There seems to be pretty compelling evidence that a high fat, low carb diet rather than the typical western diet is the way to go. Is that hard to achieve eating a vegan diet? Or is a vegan diet better still than that?

 

Sorry for all the questions. Genuinely curious as I like to eat as nutritionally as possible

 

The dairy industry is utterly awful, mother cows forcebly impregnated over and over until their body gives out, calves being taken from their mothers, then the milk being taken from the mothers and sold to us when it was made for the mothers calf! if you are born male in the dairy industry you are screwed, shot for veal, totally needless. apolgies, i just realised i have replied out of context to the point in the previous post.

Edited December 4, 2018 by gordiegords

[Beni]

3 hours ago, Highlander said:

 

However, on the other side, the evidence is pretty weighty that going plant-based, by contrast to a meat-based diet, is healthier. The best piece of solid empirical research I have encountered is The China Study. If you have access to Netflix, 'Fork Over Knives' gives an excellent overview of the study, which was initially conducted by two non-vegan omnivores, and has become a world-leading piece of research. It is fairly easy to pick up on Amazon, eBay and, for all I know, there is probably an online version too. Rather than giving you 30 books to read, I would start there if you are interested in exploring it from an impartial viewpoint. 

The China Study isn't a peer reviewed paper, so it would be stretching it to call it empirical. If you google 'china study controversy' you'll see that calling it solid is also questionable.

I heard the author on a podcast and I picked it up that he is a vegan, though may be wrong.

 

 

[Unknown user]

13 hours ago, Stokesy said:

 

Pretty much. There isn't anything inherently wrong with a burger. If you get a nice cut of meat, mince it up and cook it yourself it's a reasonable meal.

 

Cheap burgers are made by gluing the crap that can't be sold as a decent cut of meat together then shoving a load of preservatives in.

 

12 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Yes, definitely the issue is the additives/process itself rather than the whole concept of processing being bad. Humans have been processing food for thousands of years. It's just that for "organic" scam artist types, "processed food" is an easy bugbear to rail against for marketing purposes.

 

12 hours ago, milky_26 said:

Strangely a couple of days ago I watched a program which takes a little about "processed" foods and cancer. In packet ham one of the preservatives has links to cancer but to increase your chances of getting cancer you would need to eat 2 slices a day, everyday. Also in the smoke when smoking food there is some of the carcinogenic chemicals that area in cigarettes

 

Cheers gents 

[Auld Reekin']

12 hours ago, milky_26 said:

Strangely a couple of days ago I watched a program which takes a little about "processed" foods and cancer. In packet ham one of the preservatives has links to cancer but to increase your chances of getting cancer you would need to eat 2 slices a day, everyday. Also in the smoke when smoking food there is some of the carcinogenic chemicals that area in cigarettes

 

If Sodium Nitrite / Nitrate is the preservative you're talking about, it's not just present in "packet ham" but in all hams, salamis, cured sausages (though not in most fresh sausages), and cured meats. As far as ham is concerned, the only exception I have found - other than a very few "artisan" products, here and abroad - is genuine Parma Ham, which is only ever cured with salt. This preservative has been linked with cancers of the digestive system and the WHO advice is to either cut such products out of your diet or to greatly restrict your consumption of them.

 

Over the a 25-30 year period, I probably did eat 2 splices of either ham or bacon (ham in my work sandwiches, bacon in my weekend breakfasts) a day, as well as other cured meats and sausages. In late 2014, I was diagnosed with Stage 2 bowel (large-intestine) cancer*, which was operated upon and treated with chemotherapy. It seems that the treatment has been successful, as there is no sign of any recurrence four years later, which is obviously a big relief.

 

Anyway, it's impossible to say what caused the cancer to occur - it could've been the preservatives in the cured meats I ate, but alcohol has also been cited as a contributory factor and I downed plenty of that over the same period! - but I've stopped eating any of the above types of cured meat products, tried to cut-down my consumption of red meat in general, and am now also trying to be a lot more sensible with my alcohol consumption these days (still have my moments though...).

 

So, my advice - for what it''s worth - would be to go very easy on ham, bacon, salami, chorizo, and the like.

 

(*Detected in my 50s by the Scottish Bowel Screening project test-kit, so make sure you do the tests when the time comes - it could well have saved my life as I was symptom-free when diagnosed!) 

 

[Highlander]

3 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

The China Study isn't a peer reviewed paper, so it would be stretching it to call it empirical. If you google 'china study controversy' you'll see that calling it solid is also questionable.

I heard the author on a podcast and I picked it up that he is a vegan, though may be wrong.

 

 

 

I have read the page you refer to. There are some relevant concerns but, unfortunately, some issues too great to fully address here.

 

But to address your additional points: The China Study was not peer reviewed for some time after publication because it was self-published as a book. As you are most certainly aware, peer reviews are only available if you, in the first instance, publish your work in academic journals (As a current Master's student, I am coincidentally working on that right now for my final dissertation). However, my University account only allows me access to peer reviewed works and the China Study is available.

 

Finally, the author(s) of the China Study both now openly adhere to a plant-based diet based on their findings. Before the completion of the research, they were not. So you are absolutely right! 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Highlander
Typo

[Ray Gin]

PETA is trying to get folk to stop using anti-animal language. This stuff really gets my goat. Society is going to the dogs.

 

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

https://climatechangedispatch.com/new-research-methane-emissions-from-livestock-have-no-detectable-effect-on-the-climate/amp/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&%23038;utm_campaign=Feed: ClimateChangeDispatch (Climate Change Dispatch Latest News)

[ri Alban]

That's over a week of being on Almond milk. It's rotten!!! But hey, time I changed my ways a bit.

[Dawnrazor]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

That's over a week of being on Almond milk. It's rotten!!! But hey, time I changed my ways a bit.

I switched from almond milk to rice milk, much prefer it. 

[ri Alban]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I switched from almond milk to rice milk, much prefer it. 

I was having a wee look, I'll give it a go. Hopefully tastes a bit better. I'm stirring bran flakes or porridge for ages to help my motivation with almond milk.

[AlphonseCapone]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

That's over a week of being on Almond milk. It's rotten!!! But hey, time I changed my ways a bit.

 

I don't mind the Almond milk, I've been using it in my porridge for the last 6 months. Though to be fair, the honey might be playing in a big part in the taste aspect! 

[Jamboross]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

That's over a week of being on Almond milk. It's rotten!!! But hey, time I changed my ways a bit.

 

Give oat milk a bash, quite a bit thicker and creamer. Oatly is especially good and in most supermarkets. 

[Dawnrazor]

10 minutes ago, Jamboross said:

 

Give oat milk a bash, quite a bit thicker and creamer. Oatly is especially good and in most supermarkets. 

Never tried that. 

[lauriesrank]

Guys, as you know I am not n advocate of veganism at all, however, my nieghbour is running a small vegan cafe type thing and I said I would see if anyone is interested, I can post more details if there is any :)  (in edinburgh of course)

[ri Alban]

14 minutes ago, lauriesrank said:

Guys, as you know I am not n advocate of veganism at all, however, my nieghbour is running a small vegan cafe type thing and I said I would see if anyone is interested, I can post more details if there is any (in edinburgh of course)

I wasn't either, but after it being so powerfully pointed out to me(forcing me to investigate) about the disgrace that is the dairy industry, I'm going to do my small bit to eradicate this evil. It's shameful the way human beings subjugate animals.

Edited December 24, 2018 by ri Alban

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I wasn't either, but after it being so powerfully pointed out to me(forcing me to investigate) about the disgrace that is the dairy industry, I'm going to do my small bit to eradicate this evil. It's shameful the way human beings subjugate animals.

 

Good man!!! 

 

I gave up drinking cow's milk years ago and now prefer almond milk, but there are others you can try if the almond is not to your liking.  As mentioned above, oat milk is good, and can be easily made for a few pennies a litre.

 

Within the last few months I've given up ALL other dairy products, so now butter, cheese, yogurt, ice cream etc no longer enter my house.  My biggest surprise is how little I miss all that stuff.

 

Merry Christmas! 

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Good man!!! 

 

I gave up drinking cow's milk years ago and now prefer almond milk, but there are others you can try if the almond is not to your liking.  As mentioned above, oat milk is good, and can be easily made for a few pennies a litre.

 

Within the last few months I've given up ALL other dairy products, so now butter, cheese, yogurt, ice cream etc no longer enter my house.  My biggest surprise is how little I miss all that stuff.

 

Merry Christmas! 

There's a couple of dairy free ice cream, my wife buys a Swedish one I can't remember the name of, comes in a hexagonal tub, much nicer than dairy ice-cream. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[Dawnrazor]

Maple Leaf, do you eat meat? 

[Maple Leaf]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Maple Leaf, do you eat meat? 

 

Yes, I'm still an omnivore.

 

I've cut back substantially on meat products, and have completely eliminated steak, lamb, and veal.

 

Still occasionally eat chicken, ham, roast beef, and bacon, but I'm gradually reducing those. And I still eat eggs and fish.

[Dawnrazor]

Similarly I've cut out farmed meat, including salmon, I had to cut out daily but the way meat is reared, on some farms some are very good, has put me off for life. I have a steak a couple of times a year but that's about it. 

The agricultural industry needs a huge shake up if its many farmers are to survive. 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I wasn't either, but after it being so powerfully pointed out to me(forcing me to investigate) about the disgrace that is the dairy industry, I'm going to do my small bit to eradicate this evil. It's shameful the way human beings subjugate animals.

 

Could you educate me a bit here? To let you understand I worked in the dairy industry as a food hygenic welder for many years mostly for Wisemans and Express dairies. But we also did work in the few independent farm dairies that are left as well as working on holding tanks in farms where they had storage facilities. I've seen plenty cows in my time but I've never seen one being badly treated so I'm kinda curious as to where this evil is coming from.

[hughesie27]

I could swap butter for a dairy dree alternative.

I could probably live without eggs as i onky like fried or poached.

But theres 0 chance i could switch away from Cows milk. I probably drink a pint a day minimum

[cheetah]

mmm lovely nut roast for dinner today.

[frankblack]

23 hours ago, bikerjambo said:

 

Could you educate me a bit here? To let you understand I worked in the dairy industry as a food hygenic welder for many years mostly for Wisemans and Express dairies. But we also did work in the few independent farm dairies that are left as well as working on holding tanks in farms where they had storage facilities. I've seen plenty cows in my time but I've never seen one being badly treated so I'm kinda curious as to where this evil is coming from.

 

I think if you go to the militant vegan websites and social media groups you will find what you're looking for.

 

They are a right bunch of weirdos.  Normal vegans are fine but this lot have lost the plot.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I think if you go to the militant vegan websites and social media groups you will find what you're looking for.

 

They are a right bunch of weirdos.  Normal vegans are fine but this lot have lost the plot.

 

I don't think I'll be anywhere near any militant vegan websites to be honest

[Smack]

All mammals produce milk for their young, so clearly the answer is commercial whale dairy farms. Not only does it keep the Norwegians and Japanese of their backs and preserves the species, but an excellent source of fuel once the oil dries up. Not that fussed if cows go extinct tbh. Like my mum told me, never trust anything with more than 3 stomachs. 

[jim747]

12 people round the christmas dinner table, of which 1 is a vegetarian and 2 are vegans. As i'm happily munching my way through some ham one of the vegans decided I should be trying some of their Kale Crisps instead.
 

Apparently "You can shove that green shit back up your arsehole" is not an appropriate answer.

[Governor Tarkin]

14 minutes ago, jim747 said:

12 people round the christmas dinner table, of which 1 is a vegetarian and 2 are vegans. As i'm happily munching my way through some ham one of the vegans decided I should be trying some of their Kale Crisps instead.
 

Apparently "You can shove that green shit back up your arsehole" is not an appropriate answer.

 

Appropriate or not, it is the answer one would expect of an ignorant rasper.

[scott herbertson]

Was a vegetarian for a couple of years when I was a student

 

Caved in on the way home to Northfield from a night out when a bunch of us got to the top of the Broadway and Fish suppers were waved under my nose - sprinted back to the chippie and remember it as one of the best meals of my life

[jim747]

34 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Appropriate or not, it is the answer one would expect of an ignorant rasper.

I used to be a vegetarian, lasted just over a year. Opinionated rasper, not ignorant, thank you very much.

[Unknown user]

I flirted with it, had a nut roast one year for Christmas. Rubbish. 

[ri Alban]

Since hunting ? is back on for the Japanese. Can we  hunt Japanese until they stop.

Edited December 26, 2018 by ri Alban

[Ray Gin]

 

On 24/12/2018 at 11:06, Jamboross said:

 

Give oat milk a bash, quite a bit thicker and creamer. Oatly is especially good and in most supermarkets. 

 

Yeah I have oat milk with my cereal in the morning. Just as nice as having it with normal milk IMO.

 

Still have cow milk with a cup of tea though. Tastes weird with any alternatives.

 

[Dawnrazor]

14 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

 

Yeah I have oat milk with my cereal in the morning. Just as nice as having it with normal milk IMO.

 

Still have cow milk with a cup of tea though. Tastes weird with any alternatives.

 

I stopped taking milk in my tea, as you say, it's just weird with the alternatives, I have it Black with a wee drop honey, I can't take it with milk now?

[neilnunb]

On 24/12/2018 at 20:56, Dawnrazor said:

There's a couple of dairy free ice cream, my wife buys a Swedish one I can't remember the name of, comes in a hexagonal tub, much nicer than dairy ice-cream. 

 

The Swedish Glace ones are good. As are the Alpro ones (probably said it earlier in the thread ? ).  I think most Ben n Jerrys are vegetarian but noticed they also have some vegan ones now. Had the Chocolate Brownie one (I think) recently as was sent as a replacement. Was ok but the brownies were a bit grainy.

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

I stopped taking milk in my tea, as you say, it's just weird with the alternatives, I have it Black with a wee drop honey, I can't take it with milk now?

 

Similar, as I don't put anything in my tea, not even honey.

 

I think it's odd when someone says I love a cup of tea, then proceed to kill the taste of tea by adding milk and sugar.

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Similar, as I don't put anything in my tea, not even honey.

 

I think it's odd when someone says I love a cup of tea, then proceed to kill

enhance the taste of tea by adding milk and sugar.

 

This is why, for what it's worth, I do two teabags per cup. A strong tea flavour still shines through with that creaminess and bit of sweetness present. Mmm.

[Maple Leaf]

25 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This is why, for what it's worth, I do two teabags per cup. A strong tea flavour still shines through with that creaminess and bit of sweetness present. Mmm.

 

Fair enough!

 

[neilnunb]

Apparently Greggs launch a vegan sausage roll tomorrow.

 

M&S also launching a big new vegan range this month (some items already in most stores)

[Sooperstar]

In terms of sustainability of food sources and the environment a more plant based diet has clear benefits. But to get the masses, including myself, to move to eating less meat there has to be a better alternative than there is now.

[Taffin]

41 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

In terms of sustainability of food sources and the environment a more plant based diet has clear benefits. But to get the masses, including myself, to move to eating less meat there has to be a better alternative than there is now.

 

 

I think you just need to not think of it as an alternative. The best vegan and vegetarian foods are not meat replacements they're good food in and of themselves.

 

Veganism would be disastrous if adopted on a large scale though. As you say a drastic reduction in the consumption of meat is needed; completely ruling it out though if you like it just seems daft to me.

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Taffin

[FWJ]

On 04/12/2018 at 14:23, gordiegords said:

Been vegan for four years now, I just couldn’t justify paying someone else to needlessly stab an animal in the throat for my taste buds, to be honest I don’t know many folk that want to harm animals, I guess it’s just about wanting to line up my morals with my actions, for me anyway. 

Sorry - this is very late...

They’re not simply “stab[bing] an animal in the throat for my taste buds” though are they?  (Nice emotive language BTW) they’re killing an animal to provide you with First Class Protein and micro-nutrients (vitamin B12 for example) that are only available in meat (or “rotting animal flesh” as I’ve read on here).

Fortunately Homo Sapiens Sapiens are clever enough to manufacture the artificial additives that vegans require to stay healthy.  It’s kind of ironic that it’s because we started eating (cooked) meat that we got so smart.

 

As far as ‘morals’ go - would you swat a fly that had landed on your dinner?  How about a mouse that was nibbling its way through your larder?  Lay down a trap?

Edited January 2, 2019 by FWJ

[Maple Leaf]

My daughter is a project manager for Canada's largest food retailer.  She tells me that meat sales are declining steadily across the country, and that vegan foods are the fastest growing segment of the market.

[Sooperstar]

Dispatches programme about Vegans just starting on C4.