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The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.


Sergio Garcia

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With proper leadership i still reckon they could have avoided Admin and Liquidation

 

Even with the BTC they could have paid off these debts and kept going until the judgement and avoided it. Unfortunately they didn't though as nobody actually wanted to pay these debts.

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With proper leadership i still reckon they could have avoided Admin and Liquidation

 

Probably not. The only way I think they could have avoided it was if the bank didn't force SDM to sell of Rangers to reduce his exposure to debts and "possible" tax liabilities.

 

Ultimately - the whole thing comes down to SDM's expansive ego and self preservation.

 

If he had stuck to his guns - then Rangers could have survived without becoming a national embarassment.

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Hagar the Horrible

The Gasman 1754 Hagar the Horrible 1097 Geoff Kilpatrick 1065 Lovecraft 1003 jambovambo 1003 nortonjambo 979 Socrates 933 Francis Albert 911 Muhammad 815 jamboinglasgow

735

 

The above must be utterly seething :rofl:

I am not seething at all, in fact this decision will have saved the lives of countless clubs, who did the same thing, however the taxman will close those loops and perhaps still go after the benefactors rather that the trusts/clubs. You know what makes me angry is the way this mess unfolded, when it was still under SDM hands they were only ?18m in debt, take out this tax case then the Old co Rangers would have been able to trade out of that very easily or at least made selling the club far easier. But SDM cannot claim total victory as he still failed to disclose to the SPL/SFA these loans, which according to Thommo/Daly these players did have side contracts so as not to pay them back... so a decision needs to be made on that. CW still ran up massive debts to put the club into liquidation/administration to avoid paying the big tax case, I wonder how he feels now, he could have kept the club afloat but has made the wrong choice with 20/20 hindsight. Green can now play to the gallery and claim all punishments have been disproportional or I am sure he will state these punishments are a total injustice and demand to be re-instated back to the top flight, even though it was not the member clubs who put Rangers into liquidation. Remember Green offered a pittance to ensure oldco was liquidated so he could start afresh clean, guess what he has now won a watch. but I wonder if the big tax case was taken out of the equation would he have achieved a CVA with say ?10m and still been in the top flight? so while we will get the blame for enjoying this fiasco remember SDM still failed to disclose these loans unnecessarily, Sold the club unnecessarily, White ran up debts to put the club into Admin unnecessarily, Did not pay PAYE/NIC unnecessarily, The taxman ran up legal bill for the taxpayer what now turned out to be a gamble or greed, and still will drag this mess out longer as hector wants his pound of flesh from other bigger cases, which now he wont win. And finally Green created a Newco unnecessarily. So SDM/White/LLoyds/Green/D&P and the Taxman all played some part in bringing down one of the biggest football clubs in the country unnecessarily and yet we will all get the blame. Still the attention now turns to see if those loans will be required to be paid back to BDO to settle the debt of the Oldco, I have to say have they been punished enough? plenty people will now blame the wrong people but everybody should now take a look at their own part in bringing down Rangers. The media can take some of the blame as if they were not too scared to report the facts then the Ibrox legions might have been able to do something about it, but even they aimed their flack at the messenger with the bad news.. Th real loser in this is the club, A club should be the one constant, it's the crown that's supported over and above the person wearing it,

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Probably not. The only way I think they could have avoided it was if the bank didn't force SDM to sell of Rangers to reduce his exposure to debts and "possible" tax liabilities.

 

Ultimately - the whole thing comes down to SDM's expansive ego and self preservation.

 

If he had stuck to his guns - then Rangers could have survived without becoming a national embarassment.

 

Murray as well and a lot of the journos seem to be saying that the BTC ruined Rangers because without it Murray wouldn't have been in such a rush to sell and without this hanging over them there would have been far more buyers. This is pish though and again is Rangers and the medias attempt to blame someone else for their downfall. Everything a company does affects the prices of a company.

 

If you are above the board company where everything is transparent and tax is paid in an open an honest manner and you act above board in all your dealings then it will be more enticing to potential buyers.

 

If you act in a manner where you have run a very complex tax avoidance scheme and generally don't act in a transparent manner (especially with already having another tax case deemed illegal) and have no confidence in your use of schemes being definitely above board and create an image of being dodgy then quite clearly this will have consequences which may affect future investment even if everything is still legal. He took a risk running this tax avoidance scheme and Rangers reaped the benefits but seem to now be trying to disown themselves of any repercussions.

 

The same applies to Hearts to an extent. Even Hearts fans are unsure of the financial set up and the company has never been transparent. Its hardly a surprise that acting in such a manner will put off potential buyers just like the way Rangers were run put off investors.

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Probably not. The only way I think they could have avoided it was if the bank didn't force SDM to sell of Rangers to reduce his exposure to debts and "possible" tax liabilities.

 

Ultimately - the whole thing comes down to SDM's expansive ego and self preservation.

 

If he had stuck to his guns - then Rangers could have survived without becoming a national embarassment.

 

SDM Must have thought that the BTC Would have went against him so he bailed out if he had held his nerve and not handed everything over to CW It would have been business as usual so all this mess is down to one man who panicked

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"Mr Thornhill noted five cases where peculiarly trust payments were made in respect of guaranteed bonuses. These relate to Messrs Selby, Inverness, Doncaster, Barrow, and Furness, as confirmed by his instructing solicitor?s letter of 29 September 2011. The Appellants concede that in these cases there is a sufficient nexus with a contractual right to create a tax liability"

So, the SPL have their 5 dual contracts there on a plate. (even if it is considered that the EBT scheme generally was not contractual, which I still think it is - it is a contractual financial benefit)

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"Mr Thornhill noted five cases where peculiarly trust payments were made in respect of guaranteed bonuses. These relate to Messrs Selby, Inverness, Doncaster, Barrow, and Furness, as confirmed by his instructing solicitor?s letter of 29 September 2011. The Appellants concede that in these cases there is a sufficient nexus with a contractual right to create a tax liability"

 

So, the SPL have their 5 dual contracts there on a plate. (even if it is considered that the EBT scheme generally was not contractual, which I still think it is - it is a contractual financial benefit)

 

Correct so they are Guilty as charged the rules have clearly been broken tainted titles must now be removed from the records.

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Hagar the Horrible

But as Rangers haven't paid the tax, the individuals now have to pay it, or repay the "loan" they got through the EBT scheme.

 

Do you think the affected ex-players will be happy at your old Club's "victory", or do you think they'll e speaking to their Agents and Lawyers, because they think they were duped into accepting these contracts under false pretences..?

 

Do you think the fact that even if legal, these payments were in breach of SPL and SFA rules, should be ignored..?

We have both put this down and made it quite clear although related the verdicts can both have different outcomes, The SPL/SFA care not about the legality of this, it the fact that if there is dual contracts then they have broken the rules and should be punished accordingly. as for the taxcase its self it never been about innocence or guilt it about calculating the exact amount of a payment owed, ?1 or ?100m does not equate to a guilty verdict it just an assessment of how much should be paid, likewise paying zero or even getting a rebate is not been found innocent, its just part of the scale on which payment is calculated. the outcome of the big tax case has never had any bearing on the question in a footballing sense is did Rangers break the rules over dual contracts or not? however I bet now they wished they had disclosed this as they would have looked like geniuses. So if I was a Rangers fan I would be asking the question of why did they just not file these loans and let the SFA/SPL know? is it because they thought they were not entirely kosher or was it they wanted to keep this fantastic scheme all to themselves? I also have been asking the questions: Why did not one of the benefactors offer to return their loans if it meant that Rangers would still be in existence?????????

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So from what i can figure out they got liquidated and could have avoided it they easily could have flogged a couple of players to cover the wee tax bill, and they had cleard their main creditor with the ticketus money they paid the duffers about 6 million and ended up with crazy chuck running the show which all could have been avoided.

 

Not just that : they delayed the HMRC investigation for 4 YEARS, their own tax specialist (an ex HMRC tax inspector) actually refused to meet HMRC to discuss the investigation and it was only because HMRC invoked some statutory power that they got their hands on the documents they needed for the investigation. Rangers hid the side letters , lied and obfuscated, their witnesses colluded on their testimony and everything was rehearsed . There was almost a total lack of documentation covering key aspects of the trust - including the lack of any board minutes to support the creation of the trusts in the first place. The original trustees - who expressed concern at what was being doled out - were unceremoniously dumped and replaced by a more compliant set in Jersey (see the withering comments about them ).

 

Clearly RFC RIP thought they were on dodgy ground tax wise from the outset and given their subsequent behaviour , didn't REALLY believe ehtey could win the case.

 

The irony is , RFC RIP were a victim of their own delaying tactics. The bill , in the end , shouldn't have been a problem to a club with their turnover. But Murray dumped the club fearing the worst and gave it to a "billionaire".

 

As a consequence of their behaviour the club will be liquidated and Newco languishes in SFL3 in an even more parlous financial state.

 

Edit : the club was in the SPL (or would have been) with prospects of European football facing a tax bill of circa ?35 million - but now they are in the lowest tier, vastly reduced income (but players TUPED over had to stay on their original contracts ) and STILL have the Ticketus bill to repay. Some "victory" that has turned out to be.

 

Never let the Huns forget that. I won't.

Edited by 269miles
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What part of the tax case verdict that says these loans were non contractural do you not understand? The tax case verdict stated that the players had no legal right to these loans and this makes them non contractural. Thus they were not part of any contract as you have to have a legal right to that payment to make it contractural so no dual contracts can exist.

 

Also because of the way the loans were structured they do not need to recovered straight away. They can even be recovered from the borrowers estate upon their death. I think people on here just have to realise that today was a massive victory for Rangers and many people on this thread have been and it seems continue talking crap for months about something they obviously know nothing about. I doubt HMRC will appeal because to appeal they'd need some new evidence and it would need to be in the public interest. HMRC have now squandered many millions of pounds from the public purse in losing high profile tax cases against Rangers, Harry Redknapp and Milan Manderic. Will they be allowed to spend more just to lose again?

 

That part is also completely wrong. They can appeal on a point of law and they can appeal on the basis that given the evidence, no reasonable Tribunal would have come to the conclusion it did.

Edited by Jambo66
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The Old Tolbooth
Oh look... Rangers won the tax case, RTC, MacGioaloihlaoihaliaoabhain, Paul "Albion Rovers" McConville, Alex "daleks" Thomson... all looking like fools.. Here's an idea, Do you think the Rangers-obsessed jambos will now remove their heads from the arses of the Celtic-loving bloggers??? Talk about sleeping with the enemy. They must feel dirty now the "Tax-Case" has been ruled legit.

 

Feck me, when did we let this rasper through the net? :lol:

 

If I were one of your knuckle dragging mob (heaven forbid), then I'd be more concerned about why the hell it got as far as it did in the first place, because you've been liquidated, and lost all of your history, for nothing! No one will ever convince me that the small tax bill wouldn't have been manageable to get through, but the fact that the crook that is David Murray put a fall guy in place to take the heat off him tells you all you need to know.

 

The fact that you think this is some sort of victory is quite staggering considering Hector was never going to get a bean regardless of which way the tax case went, they've merely given themselves more of a chance of recouping some of the money cheated from them by immoral people (that's your mob)

 

Must be doubly frustrating that they got liquidated and no longer exist then, eh?

 

Quite funny that they shit it so soon and went down the road they did actually :D

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I'm not entirely sure why Rangers fans want to be found innocent anyway. Then the story would've been: "Rangers, so convinced of their own guilt, kill themselves. Actually innocent."

 

Being found partially guilty is probably the best case scenario for them.

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Oh look...

 

Rangers won the tax case, RTC, MacGioaloihlaoihaliaoabhain, Paul "Albion Rovers" McConville, Alex "daleks" Thomson... all looking like fools..

 

Here's an idea,

 

Do you think the Rangers-obsessed jambos will now remove their heads from the arses of the Celtic-loving bloggers???

 

Talk about sleeping with the enemy. They must feel dirty now the "Tax-Case" has been ruled legit.

 

The problem with fans of Celtic, Rangers deceased and Sevco is that they just don't understand that the vast majority of Hearts fans and fans of every other club in Scotland don't secretly support one of them. Many times I am asked which one I prefer either by people who know nothing about Scottish football, or OF fans who cannot understand that the world doesn't revolve around them. My answer is always the same - you are asking me to tell you whether I would prefer to have my right leg amputated or my left leg amputated.

 

The OF are unbelievably damaging to Scottish football. They cream off all the money (which is not put back into Scottish football, but instead is put into the hands of footballers, most of whom are not Scottish anyway), and if they were allowed, would leave Scottish football behind to join another league - any league. The fans of both continue to sing appalling songs, mostly about about events that took place several hundred years ago in another country.

 

It really hacks me off to be told by one side of Scotland's disgrace that my attitude towards their sorry excuse of a football club has something to do with the other one. It doesn't and if the other lot had done what Rangers deceased had done - guess what, there would be a 900 page thread about them too.

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Glamorgan Jambo

Sorry to burst the RFC fans bubble but this story still has a long long way to run.

 

There's the SPL enquiry into incorrect registrations. The judges have already made some pretty direct statements about this.

There's a serious possibility of an appeal by HMRC and the tax case moving before an Upper Tier Tribunal.

And there's the likelihood of several EBT beneficiaries breaking cover over the next few weeks to tell their side of the story.

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Sorry to burst the RFC fans bubble but this story still has a long long way to run.

 

There's the SPL enquiry into incorrect registrations. The judges have already made some pretty direct statements about this.

There's a serious possibility of an appeal by HMRC and the tax case moving before an Upper Tier Tribunal.

And there's the likelihood of several EBT beneficiaries breaking cover over the next few weeks to tell their side of the story.

 

Not forgetting they are dead.

 

 

:devilish:

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Its the kids I feel sorry for.

 

All the reclaimed loans/tax that is going to hit the estates on the death of all these Oldco legends.

 

I hope these legends are equally ecstatic at Oldco's "victory"

Edited by Jammy T
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"Mr Thornhill noted five cases where peculiarly trust payments were made in respect of guaranteed bonuses. These relate to Messrs Selby, Inverness, Doncaster, Barrow, and Furness, as confirmed by his instructing solicitor?s letter of 29 September 2011. The Appellants concede that in these cases there is a sufficient nexus with a contractual right to create a tax liability"

 

So, the SPL have their 5 dual contracts there on a plate. (even if it is considered that the EBT scheme generally was not contractual, which I still think it is - it is a contractual financial benefit)

 

Thing is Jammy, these Trust payments may not be players

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Have you lot found which pub "Bomber" has been in all this time, you know, just to tell him the good news about Hector looking for him and his mates?..

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Sorry to burst the RFC fans bubble but this story still has a long long way to run.

 

There's the SPL enquiry into incorrect registrations. The judges have already made some pretty direct statements about this.

There's a serious possibility of an appeal by HMRC and the tax case moving before an Upper Tier Tribunal.

And there's the likelihood of several EBT beneficiaries breaking cover over the next few weeks to tell their side of the story.

 

_46832182_billy_dodds_301109_512.jpg

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Fozzyonthefence

Oh look...

 

Rangers won the tax case, RTC, MacGioaloihlaoihaliaoabhain, Paul "Albion Rovers" McConville, Alex "daleks" Thomson... all looking like fools..

 

Here's an idea,

 

Do you think the Rangers-obsessed jambos will now remove their heads from the arses of the Celtic-loving bloggers???

 

Talk about sleeping with the enemy. They must feel dirty now the "Tax-Case" has been ruled legit.

 

Oh look, another Rangers fan(ny) talking shite.

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"Mr Thornhill noted five cases where peculiarly trust payments were made in respect of guaranteed bonuses. These relate to Messrs Selby, Inverness, Doncaster, Barrow, and Furness, as confirmed by his instructing solicitor?s letter of 29 September 2011. The Appellants concede that in these cases there is a sufficient nexus with a contractual right to create a tax liability"

 

So, the SPL have their 5 dual contracts there on a plate. (even if it is considered that the EBT scheme generally was not contractual, which I still think it is - it is a contractual financial benefit)

Thing is Jammy, these Trust payments may not be players

 

So these 'names' are completely made up and there's no way of working out who they really are? Must be some sort of code using the first initial :)

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Read Jabba today ?

 

http://www.dailyreco...ver-win-1447935

 

:facepalm:

 

If anything - the RTC has helped the decline of the Daily Record and reduce the strength of people like Traynor.

 

Hopefully the scrutiny and support of enthusiasts in the blog/twitter world will continue to put the spotlight on the substandard reporting/journalism in this country.

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Read Jabba today ?

 

http://www.dailyreco...ver-win-1447935

 

:facepalm:

 

You would think that Rangers had suddenly been completely cleared of any outstanding liabilities by the Tribunal and weren't still tax cheats who failed to pay over 200 creditors and it had all been made up. Clearly peddling the HMRC has an agenda against Rangers angle.

 

Rangers greatest victory is that we were all wrong they aren't tax cheats to the tune of ?100 million but only ?20 million. What a victory!!!

Edited by Rocco_Jambo
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Haven't read that article but I'm going to assume that the Daily Ranger is rolling out the big guns for their full-on propaganda campaign?

 

Can't wait for Mark Hateley to spew forth his take on things.

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Grammatical standards are high at the DR, I see. The subheading reads:

 

 

 

:facepalm:

 

Correct for their target audience though, in fact I'm surprised they didn't say "nuffing" in it. :ermm:

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Goldstone Wonder

The problem with fans of Celtic, Rangers deceased and Sevco is that they just don't understand that the vast majority of Hearts fans and fans of every other club in Scotland don't secretly support one of them. Many times I am asked which one I prefer either by people who know nothing about Scottish football, or OF fans who cannot understand that the world doesn't revolve around them. My answer is always the same - you are asking me to tell you whether I would prefer to have my right leg amputated or my left leg amputated.

 

The OF are unbelievably damaging to Scottish football. They cream off all the money (which is not put back into Scottish football, but instead is put into the hands of footballers, most of whom are not Scottish anyway), and if they were allowed, would leave Scottish football behind to join another league - any league. The fans of both continue to sing appalling songs, mostly about about events that took place several hundred years ago in another country.

 

It really hacks me off to be told by one side of Scotland's disgrace that my attitude towards their sorry excuse of a football club has something to do with the other one. It doesn't and if the other lot had done what Rangers deceased had done - guess what, there would be a 900 page thread about them too.

 

This. One million times this.

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A more reasonable take on it with the Guardian's headline today :

 

"Tribunal approves substantial cut in Rangers' tax liability"

 

Not "Rangers win ..." etc.

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A more reasonable take on it with the Guardian's headline today :

 

"Tribunal approves substantial cut in Rangers' tax liability"

 

Not "Rangers win ..." etc.

 

National press showing up the Weejia - yet again - embarrassing but, sadly, not in the least surprising. :ermm:

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And the case itself comments on the side letters, those awkward things it took Strathclyde's finest to hand over to Hector.

 

My only "fear" now is this being swept under a dirty carpet at Hampden.

 

Really is sad ..., my only fear is that we are being led down a garden path by Vlad ... HEARTS HEARTS Glorious

Hearts .. remember them

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Guest Bilel Mohsni

Really is sad ..., my only fear is that we are being led down a garden path by Vlad ... HEARTS HEARTS Glorious

Hearts .. remember them

 

:yucky:

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Glamorgan Jambo

Really is sad ..., my only fear is that we are being led down a garden path by Vlad ... HEARTS HEARTS Glorious

Hearts .. remember them

 

Great point but you've missed the Castle Grey off the start of your name

 

alastair johnston reckons that the punishment for dual contracts will be a slap on the wrists

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/20431849

 

Alistair Johnson reckons = Alistair Johnson hopes because if it goes against him that's the end of his involvement in Scottish football .... forever

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Great point but you've missed the Castle Grey off the start of your name

 

you do know Castle grey skull was where the good guys stayed...Castle Grayskull" [2] as once being the beautiful "Hall of Wisdom

too busy reading illiterate celtic websites ,to realise Snake Mountain is the evil lair ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alistair Johnson reckons = Alistair Johnson hopes because if it goes against him that's the end of his involvement in Scottish football .... forever

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Will the liquidators,BDO (i think)be able to chase all ex players and staff who received EBT's to repay all outstanding loans? That will be fun.

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Glamorgan Jambo

'you do know Castle grey skull was where the good guys stayed...Castle Grayskull" [2] as once being the beautiful "Hall of Wisdom

too busy reading illiterate celtic websites ,to realise Snake Mountain is the evil lair ...'

 

Actually it's a common and harmless and non bigoted reference to your teams stadium used by opposing fans... that's all

 

But do carry on... you do realise there's still an SPL inquiry, possible appeal by HMRC and as I've just seen your former custodian Mr Whyte resurface there's a lot more embarassing and potentially damaging disclosures to come from a potential cast of many many dodgy characters. Which ex player is going to take the red tops shilling this weekend?

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Traynor that little ****, tonight on Radio Scotland so called, coming over all happy and pro-Sevco.

And ' do you think there was a witch hunt against Rangers'? 'Yes.. I think thats reasonable there was a witch hunt."

and " of course I am not a Rangers supporter but Rangers supporters.. are entitled to feel.. angry'. ( Hopes they are angry enough to buy his rag).

 

Rangers supporters should, feel angry, angry they were born Weegies, angry their mums and dads probably died at 49 from fags soft water and buckie or cheap whisky, angry they are stuck in a sectarian mess that far exeeds their shortened lifespans, angry the main supporter of their views is Chico, who pretends not to support them, angry the idiot Murray sold them for a quid plus debt because he, was scared the tax case would hit him for many millions..angry the rest of us hate them, angry that .. loads. hey that last bit was certainly fact.

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Happened to here Traynor on Sportsound. Cringeworthy listening to him. Embarrassed to be a journalist he says due to the way the story was covered. Everybody who called Rangers tax cheats has been proven wrong.

 

He says basically none of it is Rangers or anyone with any connections with Rangers fault except Whyte. Basically HMRC (blameworthy) brought the tax case unjustified and this resulted in Lloyds (blameworthy) forcing Murray to sell Rangers to Whyte (blameworthy) who was solely responsible (for a PLC) not paying PAYE and NI. Without this Rangers were a perfectly viable business. :dizzy2:

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You would think that Rangers had suddenly been completely cleared of any outstanding liabilities by the Tribunal and weren't still tax cheats who failed to pay over 200 creditors and it had all been made up. Clearly peddling the HMRC has an agenda against Rangers angle.

 

Rangers greatest victory is that we were all wrong they aren't tax cheats to the tune of ?100 million but only ?20 million. What a victory!!!

the general feeling is craig whyte wouldnt have even been there if the BTC hadnt dragged on for 2 years.
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'you do know Castle grey skull was where the good guys stayed...Castle Grayskull" [2] as once being the beautiful "Hall of Wisdom

too busy reading illiterate celtic websites ,to realise Snake Mountain is the evil lair ...'

 

Actually it's a common and harmless and non bigoted reference to your teams stadium used by opposing fans... that's all

 

well i will stick with the aply named makes more sense snake mountain

 

But do carry on... you do realise there's still an SPL inquiry, possible appeal by HMRC and as I've just seen your former custodian Mr Whyte resurface there's a lot more embarassing and potentially damaging disclosures to come from a potential cast of many many dodgy characters. Which ex player is going to take the red tops shilling this weekend?

 

as for this i could not give a feck

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the general feeling is craig whyte wouldnt have even been there if the BTC hadnt dragged on for 2 years.

 

Who would have been there then?

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Lloyds would not got such itchy feet and Rangers would have continued to chip away at the debt.

 

Lloyds wanted their money back as they themselves had been up shit creek. Murray wanted out as well as things were going up shit creek for him. That's hypothetical straw clutching at best.

 

Thats even assuming that the BTC hadn't come about. The reason the BTC came about was because of Rangers use of EBT's. The only way to say Whyte would have never been in is if Rangers hadn't used a (for the most part) legal but extremely distasteful and complex tax avoidance scheme. Unfortunately they did though.

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