leginten Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Dream on. St Mirren box you know that's what's coming. This is the central problem. We're looking at some stadia on this thread from countries like the Netherlands and Germany where there is a considerable tradition of public and/or private investment in quality sports facilities and where standards and expectations are considerably higher in almost all areas of architecture and building. We're then looking at Scotland in a recession and at Edinburgh in particular and somehow expecting the buffoons at our council who are managing to blow a billion on half a tram-line to come up with some money for our stadium. In a country whose stadia are strictly third division in European terms, we're going to be lucky to end up with a St Mirren Park Mk II. And it'll be plonked in some shitey area with no decent pubs. Ram it, Hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leginten Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Nelly, I agree that even IF we were to ever move to a new stadium, then I very much doubt that 'atmosphere' and 'architecture' will be given much consideration - and I certainly don't think the council will come and ask Hearts fans for ideas of what sort of stadium they want. But if you're talking costs, then a 20,000-seater Dresden-like stadium need not cost anymore than a 20,000-seater New St Mirren Park. The seemingly inspiring aspect to Dresden's ground isn't fancy roof designs or plush multi-tiers. It's that the stands are steep, and the tower over a tight pitch. Through in a couple of decent boozers nearby, and surely that isn't too much to ask? The Gl?cksgas-Stadion cost ?46m to build, just for illustrative purposes. It's actually a reasonably large stadium - capacity is over 32000, I think. Dynamo pay something like ?2m rent to the city of Dresden annually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 It looks like it! Although the corporate boxes are only at that end behind the goals. The other end only has the two tiers, whereas the two main stands on the touchlines are all seater the full height. It wasn't the best photo I could have chosen! The small stand at the bottom end doesn't look great but I like the steepness of the stands. If the two main stands we slightly smaller the one at the bottom end without the corporate boxes could be increased slightly to give it a more complete look. I've actually sat in the dug out in this stadium, a long story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 This is the central problem. We're looking at some stadia on this thread from countries like the Netherlands and Germany where there is a considerable tradition of public and/or private investment in quality sports facilities and where standards and expectations are considerably higher in almost all areas of architecture and building. We're then looking at Scotland in a recession and at Edinburgh in particular and somehow expecting the buffoons at our council who are managing to blow a billion on half a tram-line to come up with some money for our stadium. In a country whose stadia are strictly third division in European terms, we're going to be lucky to end up with a St Mirren Park Mk II. And it'll be plonked in some shitey area with no decent pubs. Ram it, Hearts. Completely agree. I can't believe people think it'll turn out any other way. Lot of folk in for a shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Le Clos Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I've actually sat in the dug out in this stadium, a long story. During a game?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 This is the central problem. We're looking at some stadia on this thread from countries like the Netherlands and Germany where there is a considerable tradition of public and/or private investment in quality sports facilities and where standards and expectations are considerably higher in almost all areas of architecture and building. We're then looking at Scotland in a recession and at Edinburgh in particular and somehow expecting the buffoons at our council who are managing to blow a billion on half a tram-line to come up with some money for our stadium. In a country whose stadia are strictly third division in European terms, we're going to be lucky to end up with a St Mirren Park Mk II. And it'll be plonked in some shitey area with no decent pubs. Ram it, Hearts. Sadly I agree with you leginten. When/if this project gets off the ground I would imagine there with be a high degree of paranoia circulating within the council to ?avoid another tram?. The overriding onus will be to do this on the cheap and I fear another identikit Barr Construction flat pack stadium will be rolled out. This would be particularly sad given the unique design which Tynecastle has (I wonder which architects were involved in the redevelopment?) and the fantastic atmosphere it generates, an atmosphere regularly mentioned by other fans as the best in Scotland. It makes me wonder if in order to avoid the scenario described above there is the possibility of some kind of ?fans stadium working group? being formed to act as a stakeholder when this project gets off the ground. This group would need to be made of Hearts fans with a professional background in areas such as architecture, urban design, planning and project management. This would hopefully strike the right balance between providing a voice for the type of stadium the fans want while still appreciating the technical/design aspects of such a project. In terms of the designs that have been put forward there are some good examples (and some not so good). Ideally I feel that any new stadium should as far as possible try and replicate the elements which make Tynecastle such a fantastic and unique stadium, the closeness to the pitch, steep stands etc. This also would maintain a link with an element of our history and current character within our new stadium. The Arnhem stadium is perhaps the best example of this. On the subject of the examples produced I must say I?m bit surprised that the Dynamo Dresden stadium is proving so popular. For me it looks like the kind of ?soulless bowl? we would like to avoid, just a larger version of many of the identikit stadia we see in Scotland. I said on a previous post it reminds me of a larger Almondvale and I?m not just talking about the colour of the seats???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 During a game?! Unfortunately not. I was in Valladolid and went for a walk to have a look at the stadium. They were setting up for a Bruce Springsteen gig (not the reason I was in Valladolid I may add!) and the vehicle entrance in the corner was open for the workman to get their equipment in and out. I waited for an opportune moment then walked in undetected and wandered along the side of the pitch, up and down the stand, then into the dug out where I sat for a couple of minutes thinking I was Pep Guardiola watching my Barcelona team away to Valladolid. At this point a workman noticed me shouted something in Spanish to which I decided to scarper along the touchline and out the opening which I came in. Nice ground though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leginten Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Sadly I agree with you leginten. When/if this project gets off the ground I would imagine there with be a high degree of paranoia circulating within the council to ?avoid another tram?. The overriding onus will be to do this on the cheap and I fear another identikit Barr Construction flat pack stadium will be rolled out. This would be particularly sad given the unique design which Tynecastle has (I wonder which architects were involved in the redevelopment?) and the fantastic atmosphere it generates, an atmosphere regularly mentioned by other fans as the best in Scotland. This is the thing that astonishes me about the readiness of some people to shrug their shoulders and wave goodbye to it. We're talking about a stadium that's not in the best nick, admittedly. But we're not talking about something that's undesirable. On the contrary, we're dealing with something that you'd find hard to recreate anywhere now - an off city-centre stadium with a great atmosphere in a locality that has everything a football fan could possibly want pre- or post-match, including some of the best pubs in Edinburgh. In a very real sense, money couldn't buy you this now if you were starting out from scratch. And all these journalists and fans of other teams who're supposed to hate us - they know exactly what it is we have here. On the subject of the examples produced I must say I?m bit surprised that the Dynamo Dresden stadium is proving so popular. For me it looks like the kind of ?soulless bowl? we would like to avoid, just a larger version of many of the identikit stadia we see in Scotland. I said on a previous post it reminds me of a larger Almondvale and I?m not just talking about the colour of the seats???? I think the steepness of the stands is a plus, and obviously it's filled in at the corners. But yes, I wonder if it would have been quite such a stand-out if the seats had been a darker colour. As I said in a post above the atmosphere in that stadium even when three-quarters empty sounded great from the outside. I think it would be tremendous to go to a match in a full stadium there. Some of the fans of former East German teams are a bit mental, though, and I don't mean in a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 The Gl?cksgas-Stadion cost ?46m to build, just for illustrative purposes. It's actually a reasonably large stadium - capacity is over 32000, I think. Dynamo pay something like ?2m rent to the city of Dresden annually. Fair enough, but even if we broke the two basic components down - 1. steep stands and 2. close to the pitch - surely that isn't any more expensive to build than the shallower British stands that sit ten yards back. I know that as much as anyone that we're not going to get a posh stadium but is it too much to ask for those two small spec requests? It certainly can't cost anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leginten Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fair enough, but even if we broke the two basic components down - 1. steep stands and 2. close to the pitch - surely that isn't any more expensive to build than the shallower British stands that sit ten yards back. I know that as much as anyone that we're not going to get a posh stadium but is it too much to ask for those two small spec requests? It certainly can't cost anymore? You would certainly hope that if we do have to move, these two crucial aspects of watching Hearts will be respected in the stadium design. I don't know if that kind of stand is costlier to erect than the shallower type. Someone mentioned ?1000 per seat as a rough guide on the other thread (Dresden seem to have spent more), so I would assume we're looking at, say, ?22m for a 22000-seater stadium at least. I fear you're right and that we're not going to get a stadium that will inspire admiration in those hurtling past it on the bypass or wherever it is situated. It irks me that we may be going from something that is admired throughout Scotland to something that will stand out no more than buildings on your average industrial estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizou Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fair enough, but even if we broke the two basic components down - 1. steep stands and 2. close to the pitch - surely that isn't any more expensive to build than the shallower British stands that sit ten yards back. I know that as much as anyone that we're not going to get a posh stadium but is it too much to ask for those two small spec requests? It certainly can't cost anymore? Can I ask for 3. Single tier (particularly behind the goals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flux Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Whilst it gets built, will we still be a tynie or will it need to be sold first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizou Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Ticks all the boxes. Would try and get it even closer to the pitch if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinkster Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 This is the thing that astonishes me about the readiness of some people to shrug their shoulders and wave goodbye to it. We're talking about a stadium that's not in the best nick, admittedly. But we're not talking about something that's undesirable. On the contrary, we're dealing with something that you'd find hard to recreate anywhere now - an off city-centre stadium with a great atmosphere in a locality that has everything a football fan could possibly want pre- or post-match, including some of the best pubs in Edinburgh. In a very real sense, money couldn't buy you this now if you were starting out from scratch. And all these journalists and fans of other teams who're supposed to hate us - they know exactly what it is we have here. I think the steepness of the stands is a plus, and obviously it's filled in at the corners. But yes, I wonder if it would have been quite such a stand-out if the seats had been a darker colour. As I said in a post above the atmosphere in that stadium even when three-quarters empty sounded great from the outside. I think it would be tremendous to go to a match in a full stadium there. Some of the fans of former East German teams are a bit mental, though, and I don't mean in a good way. Thank the lord. I am dumbstruck that we accept the nonsense of a new stadium when we cant pay wages. The old lady is all we have, and the ease which people want to up sticks on the whim of a Russian who can't manage cash-flow is astonishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarissa Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 A sort of posh Tynecastle. Good example. Love the way the whole pitch slides out under the end stand and also the opening roof - wonder if they play the Thunderbirds theme music when they do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Can I ask for 3. Single tier (particularly behind the goals) I don't really see the point in two tiers in stadiums around 20,000. What's the point? It's just a waste of concrete. Thank the lord. I am dumbstruck that we accept the nonsense of a new stadium when we cant pay wages. The old lady is all we have, and the ease which people want to up sticks on the whim of a Russian who can't manage cash-flow is astonishing. I tried to go out of my way here to express that it's all 'ifs' and 'buts', and that it might not happen anyway, or if it does, it could be years away. It's not so much about upping sticks at a whim, but more about at least exploring the possibility that even a cheaply built stadium need not necessarily lack atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Can't believe that I seem to be in a minority of one that thought the Basel stadium was a good model for us to aspire to, as it incorporated social housing and retail outlets to help towards the funding. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Leicester Tigers proposed new stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastajambo Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Porto or Sporting Stadium minus the colours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Dream on. St Mirren box you know that's what's coming. Spot on. I'm loving the thread from a "ooh....nice stadium" perspective, but we all know this will be a one-tier SPL special. Based on the crowds we get (and our historic crowds), we should just build a 15k capacity ground which we can fill every week.......a full stdium of that size will be better than a half-empty 25k stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM Sheffield Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Anybody on here who uses the phrase "soulless bowl" or moans about the lack of atmosphere (in a stadium that's not even built ffs, mystic meg ****s) is an utter throbber. It could happen. I think it would be a tragedy if Hearts ended up with a cheap shitty identikit stadium like Doncaster or Coventry built on the outskirts of the city nowhere near anything of meaning. Those two grounds are horrendous examples of new stadia being built that are absolutely awful. Doncaster's Keepmoat is terrible and it hemmorhages millions every year from local tax payers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 It could happen. I think it would be a tragedy if Hearts ended up with a cheap shitty identikit stadium like Doncaster or Coventry built on the outskirts of the city nowhere near anything of meaning. Those two grounds are horrendous examples of new stadia being built that are absolutely awful. Doncaster's Keepmoat is terrible and it hemmorhages millions every year from local tax payers. There is very little difference between the Coventry and Dresden stadium. The problem with the Ricoh is that it is usually half-empty because the club is drifting and going nowehere. Anyway, I think we will end up with something closer to Doncaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Holds 15K, just looks like a slightly bigger version of Livingston's ground: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I don't want to be pessimistic but I really can't see this coming off. It all seems to be predicated upon support from Edinburgh City Council. What is plan B if the council refuse to play ball and go along with this? Also shouldn't the club be investigating other possibilities such as a new build out at Straiton which has excellent public transport and is close to the city by-pass. This would involve approaching Midlothian Council. Personally, I would much rather remain at Tynecastle but if that is no longer an option I would like to see concrete proposals and not all of this pie in the sky stuff. One other point (I know that I'll get belters for this)but I for one think still think that Hearts and Hibs should groundshare and this options should still be investigated, if it's good enough for the Milanese and Romans then it shouldn't out of the question for Hearts and it could make a lot of sense financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMcI Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Stade du Haimaut - Valenciennes Whilst I can definitely see the attraction to the Dresden stadium my personal preference is this. Seems to have the "enclosed feeling" and I like the slightly elevated view even from the front rows and the double tier slightly overlapping feels as though it brings the fans in the upper levels closer to the pitch. At 25,000 not a bad size either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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