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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?


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1 hour ago, jambo lodge said:

My view is that it would take decades to change with the agent of change the SNP continuing to be in "control"

 

 

The SNP would only be in control until the election after independence. I could see the SNP taking a bit of a hit post independence. 

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives & the Scottish Lib Dems will have to be totally seperate from their brethren down south, as it would be complete political suicide if any of them still took orders from party HQ in London, so not only do they need to be seperate but they need to be seen as being so.

Of course this would allow each party to adapt and adjust to the particular challenges which Scotland would face post-independence, but broadly speaking Scottish Labour could still be largely socialist minded, Scottish Conservatives would still be Tories but Scottish Tories and the Scottish Lib Dems would continue to be an irrelevance. ?

 

But that's based on a false idea. These parties in Scotland have full policy independence on Scottish matters. Their manifestos call for Scottish policies to Scottish problems. The people in these parties grassroots to the top don't see there being an issue in some UK wide policies either and would likely keep them: living wages or National Education Services, Free Schools or council tax abolition...

 

...So what would really change? 

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25 minutes ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

Have they scrapped the council tax yet? 

 

 

No, but I believe they have planted a few more of these bad boys.

 

a.jpg

 

The SNFree will win you over.

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13 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scots voted independence, remain and SNP. Your English handlers helped you and your fellow Brits born in Scotland achieve the Union, Brexit and a Tory government. Enjoy it while you  can, because soft no voters can now see, thro Brexit, that unions aren't as important to the British as they made out. :) Scotland!!! can trade with the world and Europe after all. It's not this big deal unionists made it out to be. Freedom of goods and movement with the entire world!!!!! Except England, as they don't want to trade with the big bad indywindyScottish. 

 

But Scottish independence isn't that big a deal either.

 

Not going to suddenly be a land of milk and honey. 

 

Probably the peak era of hopefulness and enthusiasm. 

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SwindonJambo
14 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scots voted independence, remain and SNP. Your English handlers helped you and your fellow Brits born in Scotland achieve the Union, Brexit and a Tory government. Enjoy it while you  can, because soft no voters can now see, thro Brexit, that unions aren't as important to the British as they made out. :) Scotland!!! can trade with the world and Europe after all. It's not this big deal unionists made it out to be. Freedom of goods and movement with the entire world!!!!! Except England, as they don't want to trade with the big bad indywindyScottish. 

 

So not bitter then :D ?

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7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

But Scottish independence isn't that big a deal either.

 

Not going to suddenly be a land of milk and honey. 

 

Probably the peak era of hopefulness and enthusiasm. 

 

Scottish independence as prescribed by some without equal trading terms with the UK would lead to a collosal recession and massive job losses if the big organisations move their offices down south where the majority of their customers are.

 

Still, they could rejoin the EU and get lots of fruit pickers back from eastern Europe....

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SwindonJambo
2 hours ago, Boris said:

Interesting to see on this thread the usual conflation between wishing independence and love for the SNP.

 

Whilst I understand that in the majority of cases those who support independence are, one would imagine, SNP supporters (members even!), but this fails to understand those who wish independence, but have no real care with the well being of the SNP.  

 

Similarly to paint all unionists as UJ waving Tories would be wrong, as it would to project them as UJ waving Labour people, not to mention the odd liberal here and there.  

 

Just as the Unionist "side" is a coalition across the political spectrum, so to is the independence movement.  Granted, the SNP hold a lot of sway in that, and for many are seen as the natural vehicle, but politics is much more nuanced than some of the pitiful "banter" that is being passed off on this thread.  From all sides.

 

 

Post of the thread Boris. Without a vote, I’m nominally a No but I’m completely accepting that a Yea vote in the future is not beyond the bounds of possibility. If Scotland does go independent in future, I hope it does so in a grown up and sensible way with costed plans and a plan to deal with the challenges, especially the big tax gap.. It won’t be a walk in the park but I’m sure a viable Scotland would emerge.

 

Some of the bitter anti English guff on here peppered with ill informed memes and links to propoganda are a total embarrassment. England has always been and will always be Scotland’s biggest trading partner and a good relationship between the countries in Union or not is vital to Scotland’s economic well being.. Only a bitter deluded fool would think otherwise.

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2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

That is just a cop out to avoid having a detailed plan of how to manage an independent Scotland in terms of the key issues mentioned above.

 

In the same way as Brexit, you can't just change everything and run away.  The middle class voters will never buy into such a vague plan without costed facts and figures.  The tories are planning to hang around post Brexit, yet the SNP plan to abdicate responsibility.

Are they? Where have the SNP said they would walk away?

 

My own view is that if independence is voted for then a coalition should negotiate the terms. I may be wrong, but a country separating like this has international legal precedent, unlike brexit which, while similar perhaps, is in fact totally different.

 

Im sure a case would be made during the campaign, equally, if there was a yes vote wouldn't labour, Tory, liberal etc have to say how they would run the country?

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SwindonJambo
12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Scottish independence as prescribed by some without equal trading terms with the UK would lead to a collosal recession and massive job losses if the big organisations move their offices down south where the majority of their customers are.

 

Still, they could rejoin the EU and get lots of fruit pickers back from eastern Europe....

 

Exactly this. If managed poorly, it could be catastrophic. An independent Scotland would need an open trading agreement with rUK. Vital.

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3 minutes ago, Boris said:

Are they? Where have the SNP said they would walk away?

 

My own view is that if independence is voted for then a coalition should negotiate the terms. I may be wrong, but a country separating like this has international legal precedent, unlike brexit which, while similar perhaps, is in fact totally different.

 

Im sure a case would be made during the campaign, equally, if there was a yes vote wouldn't labour, Tory, liberal etc have to say how they would run the country?

 

Labour, Tory, and Lib Dems don't want independence so why should they be responsible about shaping something they don't believe in?  Indeed, why shouldn't they have a policy to rejoin the UK at the first oportunity?

 

As others have said above, Independence is effectively a 1 to 1 equivalent to voting for the SNP.  No other significant parties support it.

Edited by frankblack
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Just now, SwindonJambo said:

 

Exactly this. If managed poorly, it could be catastrophic. An independent Scotland would need an open trading agreement with rUK. Vital.

 

Ruk is crying out for that post brexit!

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Just now, frankblack said:

 

Labour, Tory, and Lib Dems don't want independence so why should they be responsible about shaping something they don't believe in?

 

As others have said above, Independence is effectively a 1 to 1 equivalent to voting for the SNP.  No other significant parties support it.

 

Well then they can't complain about it then! 

 

Jeez, the nations fate lies in the hands of the politicians and you would advocate them walking away?

 

seems awfully petty.

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Just now, Boris said:

 

Well then they can't complain about it then! 

 

Jeez, the nations fate lies in the hands of the politicians and you would advocate them walking away?

 

seems awfully petty.

 

No - it is 100% the responsibility of the elected party, which would be the SNP in this scenario to take responsibility and deliver a solution that leaves the country at least no worse off than it was before.

 

Anything less, and I think the so called unionist parties should have the right to call for a referendum to rejoin the UK.

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Sir Vladimir of Romanov
43 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

No, but I believe they have planted a few more of these bad boys.

 

a.jpg

 

The SNFree will win you over.

 

To be fair they don't need to scrap it, we are all oil rich now its $200 a barrel. 

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1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

No - it is 100% the responsibility of the elected party, which would be the SNP in this scenario to take responsibility and deliver a solution that leaves the country at least no worse off than it was before.

 

Anything less, and I think the so called unionist parties should have the right to call for a referendum to rejoin the UK.

 

No worse off? Where do you make this stuff  up?

 

Most folk realise that that is something that is impossible to guarantee. Do you expect that after every general election?

 

The unionist parties would be within their right to call for another referendum, not sure the electorate would buy that tbh, and presumes rUK would want us back. Then your no worse off question comes back to you. But ultimately it would be up to the unionist parties to gain a majority and offer that to the people.

 

 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

Seems unfortunate that the SNP would put ideology before the sanity of a public who will fight each other to a standstill again if there’s a second Indy ref. 

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Just now, Boris said:

 

No worse off? Where do you make this stuff  up?

 

Most folk realise that that is something that is impossible to guarantee. Do you expect that after every general election?

 

The unionist parties would be within their right to call for another referendum, not sure the electorate would buy that tbh, and presumes rUK would want us back. Then your no worse off question comes back to you. But ultimately it would be up to the unionist parties to gain a majority and offer that to the people.

 

 

 

Ultimately the SNP will have to sell that to the electorate or they will lose again at any future referendum.  Otherwise they will get ripped apart by the No campaign considering their last attempt at a white paper in 2014.

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Well then they can't complain about it then! 

 

Jeez, the nations fate lies in the hands of the politicians and you would advocate them walking away?

 

seems awfully petty.

 

I agree with you Boris. Should it happen it must be all hands to the pumps in setting it up. It won't though. Holyrood has lost it's ability to work cross party. I fear.

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

No worse off? Where do you make this stuff  up?

 

Most folk realise that that is something that is impossible to guarantee. Do you expect that after every general election?

 

The unionist parties would be within their right to call for another referendum, not sure the electorate would buy that tbh, and presumes rUK would want us back. Then your no worse off question comes back to you. But ultimately it would be up to the unionist parties to gain a majority and offer that to the people.

 

With Brexit and Indy I don't think they do btw. 

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1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Ultimately the SNP will have to sell that to the electorate or they will lose again at any future referendum.  Otherwise they will get ripped apart by the No campaign considering their last attempt at a white paper in 2014.

Given we don't know post Brexit, it's quite possible people will know it'll be shite either way, so let's do it ourselves in the hope we can influence our prosperity ourselves, rather than leave it to Liam Fox or Rees-Mogg.

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4 minutes ago, Boris said:

Given we don't know post Brexit, it's quite possible people will know it'll be shite either way, so let's do it ourselves in the hope we can influence our prosperity ourselves, rather than leave it to Liam Fox or Rees-Mogg.

 

You are quoting idealist utopia nonsense with no evidence that the SNP can deliver prosperity in an independent Scotland.  They aren't doing a great job with the powers they currently hold.

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15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are quoting idealist utopia nonsense with no evidence that the SNP can deliver prosperity in an independent Scotland.  They aren't doing a great job with the powers they currently hold.

 

Not sure I've mentioned the SNP at all?

 

As an aside where is your evidence that post brexit Tory Britain will be totes amazeballs?

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Space Mackerel
On 07/10/2018 at 10:06, Rally200 said:

286 bikes left the airport. I was one of them One Palestine flag hardly a hijacking.

 

People were encouraged to bring flags from where you were from to show the diversity. Perhaps this chap was from Palestine ?

 

There was also a Rangers Supporters for Yes banner.

 

Very Union Bears.

 

 

Beautiful!

 

 

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Hugh Phamism
3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Scottish independence as prescribed by some without equal trading terms with the UK would lead to a collosal recession and massive job losses if the big organisations move their offices down south where the majority of their customers are.

 

Still, they could rejoin the EU and get lots of fruit pickers back from eastern Europe....

 

Not if an Independent Scotland reduced its corporation tax to less than rUK.

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SwindonJambo
18 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

Not if an Independent Scotland reduced its corporation tax to less than rUK.

 

That would help as long as the very vital open trading agreement Frank refers to was in place. If not, tariffs and currency exchange fluctuations would probably scare them away.

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57 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not sure I've mentioned the SNP at all?

 

The SNP is the independence party.  The other pro-independence parties are an irrelevance unless their MSP count can push the SNP over the line at Holyrood.

 

Quote

As an aside where is your evidence that post brexit Tory Britain will be totes amazeballs?

 

Never said that.  A post-Brexit UK will be far more prosperous than an independent Scotland with no open trade links to the UK.

 

Scotland would become a debt-ridden, recession-hit basket case in this scenario.

Edited by frankblack
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jack D and coke
32 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The SNP is the independence party.  The other pro-independence parties are an irrelevance unless their MSP count can push the SNP over the line at Holyrood.

 

 

Never said that.  A post-Brexit UK will be far more prosperous than an independent Scotland with no open trade links to the UK.

 

Scotland would become a debt-ridden, recession-hit basket case in this scenario.

Why won’t the ruk trade with us? Surely it’s in their interests too to maintain smooth passage if a Yes vote comes to pass? You do realise the Scottish banks would have to domicile in England and with the loans, mortgages etc it’s a fair bit of money the treasury would be on the hook for if they decide to trash our economy. They would assume all the debt George Osbourne confirmed that last time, do they want any payment plan or will they just leave us bust and unable to pay? We have some pretty big cards to play too with the not so small issue of nuclear bombs on our turf that would need shifting. We have the power to power their homes, the water supplies etc etc. 

It’s not a one way street here at all. 

Edited by jack D and coke
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27 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Why won’t the ruk trade with us? Surely it’s in their interests too to maintain smooth passage if a Yes vote comes to pass? You do realise the Scottish banks would have to domicile in England and with the loans, mortgages etc it’s a fair bit of money the treasury would be on the hook for if they decide to trash our economy. They would assume all the debt George Osbourne confirmed that last time, do they want any payment plan or will they just leave us bust and unable to pay? We have some pretty big cards to play too with the not so small issue of nuclear bombs on our turf that would need shifting. We have the power to power their homes, the water supplies etc etc. 

It’s not a one way street here at all. 

 

Like Britain with the EU, Scotland will have to take their share of the debt.  That is not negotiable.  The problem is first and foremost Scotland's - starting independence as a basket case is hardly an attractive proposition for voters.

 

The nuclear base issue isn't too significant.  As for power and water, again I doubt the rest of the UK would be reliant on us.  Do we not also need to build new nuclear stations?

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SwindonJambo
2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Beautiful!

 

 

 

Not so beautiful for the environment. What a thoroughly pathetic waste of fuel. Regardless of cause. All these marches, motorcades, convoys  and flag waving - do you honestly think it atttacts any new support? Try presenting some sound a costed economic figures and you might have some more success.

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jack D and coke
7 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Like Britain with the EU, Scotland will have to take their share of the debt.  That is not negotiable.  The problem is first and foremost Scotland's - starting independence as a basket case is hardly an attractive proposition for voters.

 

The nuclear base issue isn't too significant.  As for power and water, again I doubt the rest of the UK would be reliant on us.  Do we not also need to build new nuclear stations?

We have nuclear power stations what are you talking about? The nuclear base isn’t too significant? Where are they shifting it too likes? It’s hardly like I split up with my wife and she tells me to get my car out her driveway ffs. See if it was in Wales they went Independent and the government said we’re moving our nuclear bombs to Scotland dontoubthink people wood be happy about it? It’s an enormous issue for the British government, an absolute headache. 

We supply England power too to keep their lights on that’s also a fact. Somehow they won’t want to buy it if we go Indy they’ll be in that much of a huff? 

And again George Osbourne confirmed the rUK would inherit all debt. Scotland would obviously make a payment plan for for goodwill but without a good settlement who’s to say we owe anything? If we didn’t get a fair share of the uks assets then why should we honour debt that let’s face it we didn’t spend. 

 

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Brighton Jambo

Just out of interest I checked the latest odds for when the next referendum will be.  8/1 2019, 10/1 for 2020, 12/1 2021 or 1/5 2022 or later.  

 

That for me reinfoces my belief that everything hangs on the Scottish elections in 2021.  All parties other than SNP and Greens will run on a promise of no second referendum.  If the general election result is a barometer and given the nature of how seats are allocated at Holyrood then there will be a pro union majority for the first time in years.  That takes the matter off the table for at least five years.  

 

Personally I am not for independence but for those that are I would suggest you need your referendum before 2021.  Not sure what happens if UK government keeps saying no though!! 

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57 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

We have nuclear power stations what are you talking about? The nuclear base isn’t too significant? Where are they shifting it too likes? It’s hardly like I split up with my wife and she tells me to get my car out her driveway ffs. See if it was in Wales they went Independent and the government said we’re moving our nuclear bombs to Scotland dontoubthink people wood be happy about it? It’s an enormous issue for the British government, an absolute headache. 

We supply England power too to keep their lights on that’s also a fact. Somehow they won’t want to buy it if we go Indy they’ll be in that much of a huff? 

And again George Osbourne confirmed the rUK would inherit all debt. Scotland would obviously make a payment plan for for goodwill but without a good settlement who’s to say we owe anything? If we didn’t get a fair share of the uks assets then why should we honour debt that let’s face it we didn’t spend. 

 

 

You seem to think that the likes of Faslane couldn't be moved to a site down south.  I'd argue they could without too much trouble, and of course all the jobs and service supply chains would relocate with them.  You seem to think that Independence would happen like the flick of a switch, but I'd argue there would have to be a transition period.

 

As for Nuclear power stations - yes we have them but what is their end of life and where would the cash come from to build replacements?

 

As for your view on the national debt, I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  RBS and HBOS were Scottish companies that required huge government bail outs in 2008.  You try walking away from Scotland's debt and see how many countries will trade with you, not least England, where you will need to create a physical border.

 

The rest of the UK would not be reliant on Scotland to provide power, and if needed would build their own extra capacity.  The reality is that Scotland would hold a very weak hand in negotiating any trade deal with the rUK post independence.

 

Speaking of trade deals, would the people get a "People's Vote" on a trade deal with the option to remain in the UK if they don't like what is offered?  I am just asking as Nicola has taken that position over Brexit, and the two situations are much the same.

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jack D and coke
13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You seem to think that the likes of Faslane couldn't be moved to a site down south.  I'd argue they could without too much trouble, and of course all the jobs and service supply chains would relocate with them.  You seem to think that Independence would happen like the flick of a switch, but I'd argue there would have to be a transition period.

 

As for Nuclear power stations - yes we have them but what is their end of life and where would the cash come from to build replacements?

 

As for your view on the national debt, I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  RBS and HBOS were Scottish companies that required huge government bail outs in 2008.  You try walking away from Scotland's debt and see how many countries will trade with you, not least England, where you will need to create a physical border.

 

The rest of the UK would not be reliant on Scotland to provide power, and if needed would build their own extra capacity.  The reality is that Scotland would hold a very weak hand in negotiating any trade deal with the rUK post independence.

 

Speaking of trade deals, would the people get a "People's Vote" on a trade deal with the option to remain in the UK if they don't like what is offered?  I am just asking as Nicola has taken that position over Brexit, and the two situations are much the same.

You don’t seem to understand how it worked either I’ve explained this before. RBS and HBos were Scottish in name but 7% of their business is in Scotland and because they (at the moment) are British banks that have been paying taxes to the British government for over 300 years they received British state bailout. If Scotland was independent they wouldn’t be Scottish, they would have to become rUK banks as you must domicile in the country where you do most of your business. The Scottish government would, if they felt it was good sense bail out the Scottish market and nowhere else. Do you understand yet? This lie perpetuated that Scotland would’ve been on the hook for RBS or anybody else with Scotland in their name or a plaque on a wall in Edinburgh for their worldwide debt is utterly ridiculous. RBS also received US Fed bailout for their bad debt over there. Understand how it works yet? 

If you think upping faslane into some new area is that easy then fair enough but I’d imagine nowhere will be chuffed with a nuclear base popping up in their areas frankly added to the cost of relocating it all too. 

How many times do you need to be convinced that George Osbourne stated the British government would assume all debt. Scotland would make goodwill payments to service a share this is all out there already ffs. This is not cloud cuckoo land frank. 

What is it with people like you anyway? Nobody will want anything from Scotland after Indy, not our resources, out food, everybody will leave, nobody will come ffs man just what is it with believing that we will be cut off and cast adrift into the Atlantic if we dare to take control of our own affairs?

Jesus :facepalm: 

Edited by jack D and coke
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33 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You don’t seem to understand how it worked either I’ve explained this before. RBS and HBos were Scottish in name but 7% of their business is in Scotland and because they (at the moment) are British banks that have been paying taxes to the British government for over 300 years they received British state bailout. If Scotland was independent they wouldn’t be Scottish, they would have to become rUK banks as you must domicile in the country where you do most of your business. The Scottish government would, if they felt it was good sense bail out the Scottish market and nowhere else. Do you understand yet? This lie perpetuated that Scotland would’ve been on the hook for RBS or anybody else with Scotland in their name or a plaque on a wall in Edinburgh for their worldwide debt is utterly ridiculous. RBS also received US Fed bailout for their bad debt over there. Understand how it works yet? 

If you think upping faslane into some new area is that easy then fair enough but I’d imagine nowhere will be chuffed with a nuclear base popping up in their areas frankly added to the cost of relocating it all too. 

How many times do you need to be convinced that George Osbourne stated the British government would assume all debt. Scotland would make goodwill payments to service a share this is all out there already ffs. This is not cloud cuckoo land frank. 

What is it with people like you anyway? Nobody will want anything from Scotland after Indy, not our resources, out food, everybody will leave, nobody will come ffs man just what is it with believing that we will be cut off and cast adrift into the Atlantic if we dare to take control of our own affairs?

Jesus :facepalm: 

 

Ok - so these banks weren't headquartered in Scotland in 2008?  That is the issue, not where they are going to be located post independence.  In any case the money is absorbed into the national debt which will be split proportionately.

 

George Osbourne also said there would be a massive recession if we voted for Brexit, and that hasn't happened.  He isn't in government, and whatever he said wasn't official policy isn't something you can count on.  The debt is something you are going to have to negotiate with the UK government, and I doubt they would give you a goodwill deal without taking something in return.

 

So, as I said, post independence Scotland would be negotiating with the UK holding a very weak hand.

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10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok - so these banks weren't headquartered in Scotland in 2008?  That is the issue, not where they are going to be located post independence.  In any case the money is absorbed into the national debt which will be split proportionately.

 

George Osbourne also said there would be a massive recession if we voted for Brexit, and that hasn't happened.  He isn't in government, and whatever he said wasn't official policy isn't something you can count on.  The debt is something you are going to have to negotiate with the UK government, and I doubt they would give you a goodwill deal without taking something in return.

 

So, as I said, post independence Scotland would be negotiating with the UK holding a very weak hand.

 

How much trade goes from rUK to Scotland?  Wouldn't you think it would be in everyone's interest to sort things out?  Or do you fear we will be treated with spite?

 

If the latter, are these people we want to be in bed with?

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jack D and coke
14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok - so these banks weren't headquartered in Scotland in 2008?  That is the issue, not where they are going to be located post independence.  In any case the money is absorbed into the national debt which will be split proportionately.

 

George Osbourne also said there would be a massive recession if we voted for Brexit, and that hasn't happened.  He isn't in government, and whatever he said wasn't official policy isn't something you can count on.  The debt is something you are going to have to negotiate with the UK government, and I doubt they would give you a goodwill deal without taking something in return.

 

So, as I said, post independence Scotland would be negotiating with the UK holding a very weak hand.

Bloody hell. 

Brexit hasn’t happened yet there could well be a big recession. 

Doesnt really matter who is in government chancellor etc either do you think George Osbourne said rUK would assume all debt off his own back?

 

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2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

How much trade goes from rUK to Scotland?  Wouldn't you think it would be in everyone's interest to sort things out?  Or do you fear we will be treated with spite?

 

If the latter, are these people we want to be in bed with?

 

So, much the same situation as the UK negotiating its Brexit terms with the EU?

 

We need them more than they need us.  Do you think there should be a "people's vote" to ratify independence terms like Nicola wants for Brexit?

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Just now, jack D and coke said:

Bloody hell. 

Brexit hasn’t happened yet there could well be a big recession. 

Doesnt really matter who is in government chancellor etc either do you think George Osbourne said rUK would assume all debt off his own back?

 

 

Yes.  He was arrogant and not exactly mystic meg with his predictions.

 

He isn't in government any more for a good reason.

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9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So, much the same situation as the UK negotiating its Brexit terms with the EU?

 

A wee bit, in that a trade deal would need negotiated.

 

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We need them more than they need us.  Do you think there should be a "people's vote" to ratify independence terms like Nicola wants for Brexit?

 

I think you are conflating what the FM said regards naother vote re Brexit.  Scotland was clear that it wished to remain in the EU.  The SNP are saying that single market access and customs union are what Scotland wants.  If the Brexit deal doesn't deliver this AND there is another vote on the matter, then the SNP would back that.  This is my understanding at least.

 

Should independence terms be ratified?  Maybe!  If the people have voted for independence, then perhaps they should be given the opportunity to validate the settlement.  That;s why a coalition of political groups should work towards that settlement and not be left to one party with its own agenda (see Brexit for example).

 

Were this the case, then I'm sure it would be ratified as all parties would be stakeholders.

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jack D and coke
22 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you think there should be a "people's vote" to ratify independence terms like Nicola wants for Brexit?

No. 

Shes made a big mistake there imo. 

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Unless I am mistaken it was people who voted in both recent referendums.  What she means of course is 'her people'.

 

 

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I found this quite interesting.  

 

Majority of Tory voters in England would be happy to see UK break up as price of Brexit, survey suggests

According to research by the Centre on Constitutional Change, which is based at Edinburgh University, Brexit is “dislodging long-held red lines about the [UK] union”. It says a majority of Conservative voters in England would prefer to press ahead with Brexit even if it led to the UK breaking up.

Here is an extract from the news release it has sent out.

Clear majorities of English Conservatives would support Scottish independence or the collapse of the NI peace process as the price of Brexit

87% of (overwhelmingly unionist) leave voters in Northern Ireland see the collapse of the peace process as an acceptable price for Brexit ...

Nearly half (49%) of English Conservative voters do not think Scottish MPs should sit in the UK cabinet and, in worse news for David Mundell [the Scottish secretary] as the SNP gathers in Glasgow, 24% of Scottish Conservative voters agree with them

And here are some of the key poll findings.

 

Polling on attitudes to Brexit and break-up of UK Polling on attitudes to Brexit and break-up of UK Photograph: YouGov

These figures suggest that 77% of Conservative voters in England think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to Scottish independence, and 73% of them think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to the unravelling of the Northern Ireland peace process. Labour and Lib Dem voters are much less likely to say that, meaning that the Conservative and Unionist party is now arguable far less unionist than its rivals.

Commenting on the findings, Professor Richard Wyn Jones from Cardiff University said:

Strident protestations of faith in the future of the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from Theresa May and her leading ministers cannot hide the fact that that the union is under huge stress as result of Brexit. Ironically, that threat is posed at least as much by those who would regard themselves as unionists as it is by those in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland who actively wish the union’s demise.

An overwhelming majority of Conservative voters in England would prefer to see Scotland become independent and a breakdown of the peace process in Northern Ireland rather than compromise on their support for Brexit. But it’s not just Brexit. Half of English Conservative supporters want to stop Scottish MPs from sitting in the British cabinet altogether.

The bonds that have tied the union together have frayed to such an extent that, frankly, it’s hard to imagine that the proposed festival of ‘national renewal’ is going to do anything more than emphasise the extent to which we continue to drift apart.

And this is from Edinburgh University’s Professor Ailsa Henderson.

There is evidence that Brexit is dislodging long-held red lines about the union. If even unionists in Northern Ireland care less about the territorial integrity of the UK than pursuing Brexit, then it really raises questions about the type of union we’re in, and indeed what unionism means.

 

 

From https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed

 

 

 

 

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coconut doug
15 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Post of the thread Boris. Without a vote, I’m nominally a No but I’m completely accepting that a Yea vote in the future is not beyond the bounds of possibility. If Scotland does go independent in future, I hope it does so in a grown up and sensible way with costed plans and a plan to deal with the challenges, especially the big tax gap.. It won’t be a walk in the park but I’m sure a viable Scotland would emerge.

 

Some of the bitter anti English guff on here peppered with ill informed memes and links to propoganda are a total embarrassment. England has always been and will always be Scotland’s biggest trading partner and a good relationship between the countries in Union or not is vital to Scotland’s economic well being.. Only a bitter deluded fool would think otherwise.

Apart from one obvious poster where is this "bitter anti English guff on here"?

 

Afaik England has always been Scotland's biggest trading partner except for the period immediately before the union. i would expect a strong trading relationship to remain whether Indy, Brexit happens or not.

 

Ireland's economy was also extremely closely linked to the U.K. for many years it was the biggest relationship by far. Not now though. the U.K is now Ireland's third biggest export market behind the U.S.A. and Belgium/Luxemburg. It's almost as if Ireland is trying to restructure its economy for the advantages that come with E.U. membership. This approach has taken Ireland to near the top of the GNP per capita table, why couldn't Scotland do something similar or even better given that we have better resources?

 

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/irl/

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coconut doug
19 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

Nicola accusing BBC of employing Ruth Davidson during the SNP conference. The very pregnant Ruth confirms she has been in her parliamentary office all day. SNP has more victim mentality than Celtic.

I can't find anything on this. Do you have a link?

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coconut doug
21 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If only Labour would attempt to apply a brain to anything. It's for not thinking about things meaningfully which have got them there.

 

Nice deflection though. Why has Keith Brown been allowed to attend AUOB marches and demand independence now and yet goes back to his Depute Leadership post and do nothing about it? 

What did Brown actually say?

 

Why should he not be allowed to attend a AUOB event?

 

Here's a quote from the AUOB organiser.  Neil McKay  "We have full confidence in Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP that the democratic mandate for Indyref2 is in hand and does not need further ratified, and that as such the mandate will be used and used before it's too late "

 

Do you think Brown disagrees with this statement and if so do you have any evidence to support your view? 

 

It would be very strange if the deputy leader did not understand and support the positions of both AUOB and the SNP. Surely if this were the case the cult leaders would have bumped him by now? It would definately be all over the media but i cant find anything.

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13 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

What did Brown actually say?

 

I saw footage on Twitter of him leading the march (with others) chanting "What do we want? Independence! When do we want it? Now!" - more saying there's a disconnect in that and his party's message. 

 

Much like Burgon applauding a call for a general strike a few weeks ago.

 

13 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Why should he not be allowed to attend a AUOB event?

 

He can go all he wants.

 

13 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Here's a quote from the AUOB organiser.  Neil McKay  "We have full confidence in Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP that the democratic mandate for Indyref2 is in hand and does not need further ratified, and that as such the mandate will be used and used before it's too late "

 

Do you think Brown disagrees with this statement and if so do you have any evidence to support your view? 

 

I don't think he does. I think there's a dishonesty in that statement though. The dishonesty being no one thinks there need be a ratification of "the mandate" - there's a pro-indy majority. But there's no agreed position from the parties to it. And the drive towards it seems to have stalled since it was voted on... In fact now it's Brexit dependent. Which really takes it close to "running out". To me, this confidence may wear thin the longer it's dragged out.

 

13 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

It would be very strange if the deputy leader did not understand and support the positions of both AUOB and the SNP. Surely if this were the case the cult leaders would have bumped him by now? It would definately be all over the media but i cant find anything.

 

Odd ending. As I stated that post was my view looking in on it. It's interesting Sturgeon has never appeared at an AUOB event (to my knowledge) nor a serving minister for that. Appears as though she's distancing the government from this big push.

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4 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

You having a laugh?  He's great at throwing out false assertions without any evidence, unable to back it up, then reverts back to another falsehood later in the day.  Best ignored rather asking him to justify his bullshit.

 

Hi HD. Lovely to hear from you. As my post said it was my opinion.

 

It doesn't need a link to the Guardian or Ferrett to see there's no substantive process to any of this beyond the SNP itself and what they deem is needed to get over the line.

 

Where's the neutral convention for all interested parties like the SCC of the 80s and 90s? Why are there loads of marches and no real aims to unite a movement behind principles rather than a flag?

 

As I say, I no longer live in Scotland. But looking back in I see a lot of similarities to what the Brexit mob were doing. More about emotions than reasons. 

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