Space Mackerel Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 1 hour ago, EastSideJambo said: That's simply not the case though is it. Labour have great differences of options throughout the Party. Conservatives the same SNP MP's and MSP's simply fall in line with the message from HQ What you’re actually on about is the Labour are split between Blairites and Corbynistas and the Tories are split between May and a hard Brexit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Boris said: Which is pretty much what every political party does... Not really - these parties give free votes for most issues. Correct me if I am wrong but some SNP MPs agreed with Brexit or representing the decision of their constituents but were told how to vote to avoid Nicola looking an even bigger embarrassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: I post facts and the odd sarcastic one now and then for a bit of humour. Youve been caught numerous times for posting absolute falsehoods and generally trolling. Nope. I post my opinions not falsehoods. If proved wrong I hold my hands up. You were trolling with your post above and then accusing another poster of trolling in your next post. Hypocritical, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastSideJambo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 48 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: What you’re actually on about is the Labour are split between Blairites and Corbynistas and the Tories are split between May and a hard Brexit? And that all Snips fall in line like sheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: I post facts and the odd sarcastic one now and then for a bit of humour. You don't really though do you, you copy and paste stuff, usually, from pro independence sourses, because you believe it and would like it to be "facts" doesn't make it factual, this and you're, usually, total avoidance of replying sensibly to anyone questioning your posts make you difficult to take seriously. I agree about your sarcasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastSideJambo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said: You don't really though do you, you copy and paste stuff, usually, from pro independence sourses, because you believe it and would like it to be "facts" doesn't make it factual, this and you're, usually, total avoidance of replying sensibly to anyone questioning your posts make you difficult to take seriously. I agree about your sarcasm. Possibly devoid of the intellect required to debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 1 hour ago, frankblack said: Not really - these parties give free votes for most issues. Correct me if I am wrong but some SNP MPs agreed with Brexit or representing the decision of their constituents but were told how to vote to avoid Nicola looking an even bigger embarrassment. I don't know. You'd need to tell which SNP MPs publicly backed Brexit. None spring to my mind. Pretty sure every constituency in Scotland voted remain at the eu referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 26 minutes ago, Boris said: I don't know. You'd need to tell which SNP MPs publicly backed Brexit. None spring to my mind. Pretty sure every constituency in Scotland voted remain at the eu referendum? I read this somewhere around the Brexit referendum, but wouldn't likely be able to find it now. If an MP's constituency voted to leave, is it right that the MP ignores their will? You can't tell me that all the SNP MPs were in remain constituencies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, Boris said: I don't know. You'd need to tell which SNP MPs publicly backed Brexit. None spring to my mind. Pretty sure every constituency in Scotland voted remain at the eu referendum? The SNP all vote one way in almost everything like the drones they are. Horrendous stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, Boris said: I don't know. You'd need to tell which SNP MPs publicly backed Brexit. None spring to my mind. Pretty sure every constituency in Scotland voted remain at the eu referendum? https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14843960.alex-neil-i-voted-for-brexit-and-i-was-not-the-only-snp-msp-who-backed-leave/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 26 minutes ago, frankblack said: I read this somewhere around the Brexit referendum, but wouldn't likely be able to find it now. If an MP's constituency voted to leave, is it right that the MP ignores their will? You can't tell me that all the SNP MPs were in remain constituencies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File%3AUnited_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results.svg Scotland voted in its 32 council authority constituencies and all voted to remain. Perhaps the Scottish Tory MPs should be the ones looking at themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: I think most the board on here are getting a bit tired of the rubbish you post on here. Take a break, it’ll do you the world of good. With all due respect: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14843960.alex-neil-i-voted-for-brexit-and-i-was-not-the-only-snp-msp-who-backed-leave/ Fair enough, however the question was in respect of MPs, rather than MSPs. Sorry, don't mean to sound churlish, but Frank Black did say MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: The SNP all vote one way in almost everything like the drones they are. Horrendous stuff. Im sure the PM would love such party loyalty right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Boris said: Im sure the PM would love such party loyalty right now! It is called not being allowed to have different views or opinion policing. Edited October 10, 2018 by i8hibsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: It is called not being allowed to have different views or opinion policing. Or everyone following the party line? Is it so bad that they agree and show a united front? Don't you think that these individuals have the mettle to rebel if they so desired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Boris said: Or everyone following the party line? Is it so bad that they agree and show a united front? Don't you think that these individuals have the mettle to rebel if they so desired? I can't stress this enough. A political party all voting the same way for everything is very very harmful. And no I don't. They are all programmed. Edited October 10, 2018 by i8hibsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 "How come the SNP urnae rippin themselves tae bits like aww the other unionist parties, likes?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: I can't stress this enough. A political party all voting the same way for everything is very very harmful. And no I don't. They are all programmed. Well you've pretty much described how the political system works and has done for decades, but it's the SNP’s fault? OK then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 On 09/10/2018 at 20:40, SwindonJambo said: I’ve just had a wee look too. Dearie dear! Even I’m laughing. Looks like a right bunch of fruitcakes. Unfortunately there are a fair few of them - on BOTH sides and neither are especially helpful. Bunch of fruitcakes, eh! How did you get on finding "bitter anti English guff on here"? What have you got against Eastern Europeans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwindonJambo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, coconut doug said: Bunch of fruitcakes, eh! How did you get on finding "bitter anti English guff on here"? What have you got against Eastern Europeans? The fruitcakes I’m referring to are the extreme flag waving Unionists in The link. I have nothing against East Europeans whatsoever. Quite the reverse actually. I like them and I’ve travelled widely there. I have a good few Polish friends and speak the language passably. I voted remain. The bitter anti ENglish guff comes repeatedly from a small handful of posters, one in particular who repeats over and over. The posts on this thread have mostly been decent so far, imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 12 hours ago, SwindonJambo said: The fruitcakes I’m referring to are the extreme flag waving Unionists in The link. The bitter anti ENglish guff comes repeatedly from a small handful of posters, one in particular who repeats over and over. The posts on this thread have mostly been decent so far, imho. With you there SwindonJambo. Neither do their side/opinion any favours and a consequence is that people are turned off by the whole thing, which is a great pity as it diminishes our democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 22 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: I think most the board on here are getting a bit tired of the rubbish you post on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 26 minutes ago, Boris said: Neither do their side/opinion any favours and a consequence is that people are turned off by the whole thing, which is a great pity as it diminishes our democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, Boris said: With you there SwindonJambo. Neither do their side/opinion any favours and a consequence is that people are turned off by the whole thing, which is a great pity as it diminishes our democracy. Verbage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 16 hours ago, Boris said: Fair enough, however the question was in respect of MPs, rather than MSPs. Sorry, don't mean to sound churlish, but Frank Black did say MPs. Oh, fair enough. I did say I read something quite some time ago and wouldn't know where to look for it. The point about the SNP being united anti-Brexit despite holding differing views still stands. As much as people (quite rightly) ridicule some Tory MPs for speaking out against their party, at least they show they aren't robots. I'd like to think that the MPs and MSPs I vote for will be opinionated and principled, even if it is against party lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 46 minutes ago, frankblack said: Oh, fair enough. I did say I read something quite some time ago and wouldn't know where to look for it. The point about the SNP being united anti-Brexit despite holding differing views still stands. As much as people (quite rightly) ridicule some Tory MPs for speaking out against their party, at least they show they aren't robots. I'd like to think that the MPs and MSPs I vote for will be opinionated and principled, even if it is against party lines. But...ach...you know what, life's too short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 No - like before We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo. The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, rudi must stay said: No - like before We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo. The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own. Why couldn’t we survive? What makes more sense about 5 million looking after 5 million as opposed to 60 million looking after 60 million? Why would relations be bad? Britain has parted company with dozens of countries and the relationship is in the main pretty good, why would it be any different? Do you think/fear they would punish us? If so you believe they do things in our best interests atm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, rudi must stay said: No - like before We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo. The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own. You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 2 hours ago, jack D and coke said: Why couldn’t we survive? What makes more sense about 5 million looking after 5 million as opposed to 60 million looking after 60 million? Why would relations be bad? Britain has parted company with dozens of countries and the relationship is in the main pretty good, why would it be any different? Do you think/fear they would punish us? If so you believe they do things in our best interests atm? Yes but we don't share an island with them. Alot of major businesses said they would pull out of Scotland if we went independent last referendum, and that was no threat. We would be a new country with a new economy that's totally unproven. I don't see whats so wrong with the deal we have, our parliament has a say in most issues aside from foreign affairs, not bad for a country of 5 million. Look at the royal family, look at the tourism and what being part of Britain brings. We'd be cutting ourselves from all of that. It would be stupid IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said: You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence. So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers. All talk, no detail, no actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said: You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? I do fear the relationship definatly. They could be awful, and as I said in my previous post we aren't under the thumb of England and Westminster. A few more devolved issues (think that's what they call them, been a while since I did modern studies and had to remember all this) and that would be even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 So, folk are still arguing if Scotland COULD make it alone, even though most intelligent people agree it could. The debate is now SHOULD Scotland go it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 26 minutes ago, frankblack said: The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence. So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers. All talk, no detail, no actions. SNP won't be on charge. Inpedendence isn't about them. There will be a Scottish general election and we would vote for the party who's policies we think best suits our needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 29 minutes ago, rudi must stay said: I do fear the relationship definatly. They could be awful, and as I said in my previous post we aren't under the thumb of England and Westminster. A few more devolved issues (think that's what they call them, been a while since I did modern studies and had to remember all this) and that would be even better. I can relate to all our UK relations it's the governance I dislike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said: SNP won't be on charge. Inpedendence isn't about them. There will be a Scottish general election and we would vote for the party who's policies we think best suits our needs. Why? The other parties want to remain part of the union. The SNP can't just dump this shit on us and run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, frankblack said: Why? The other parties want to remain part of the union. The SNP can't just dump this shit on us and run. I meant if we gained independence. There would be new parties with new ideals. The SNP have done a relatively good job but not enough on independence. More people would vote for it if the message was clearer and allayed some fears but they have failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 13 minutes ago, Cade said: So, folk are still arguing if Scotland COULD make it alone, even though most intelligent people agree it could. The debate is now SHOULD Scotland go it alone. No, it is will they? Of course we could. Hearts could win the league. Do you agree we also COULD NOT go it alone? Or do you have all the answers that no-one else does. Not sure why you brought up the intelligence of those who say we could when many as great a mind say the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 It's interesting that Labour and Tories are trying very hard to equate Independence with the SNP. All it's doing is giving the SNP a built-in 45%+ share of the vote in every election. You'd think they'd realise that and start having a more mature debate on the proposal, but hey ho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 56 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said: I meant if we gained independence. There would be new parties with new ideals. The SNP have done a relatively good job but not enough on independence. More people would vote for it if the message was clearer and allayed some fears but they have failed. I am not convinced that is practical as negotiations would need to take place immediately to agree settlement terms, currency, etc. I do agree with the latter point about the message, as I think the message is far from clear. At the end of the day, people want to know that their jobs and finances are going to be secure post independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Cade said: It's interesting that Labour and Tories are trying very hard to equate Independence with the SNP. All it's doing is giving the SNP a built-in 45%+ share of the vote in every election. You'd think they'd realise that and start having a more mature debate on the proposal, but hey ho. Independence is represented by the SNP with the irrelevant greens propping them up at Holyrood. There are no other relevant parties - that is a fact. Therefore the SNP represent independence. As for the 45%+ share, lets just see what happens next election. Their MP count took a big hit at the last General Election. Mature debates go both ways. The SNP are seen as the Grievance Party, who do nothing constructive other than oppose Westminster at every oportunity. Edited October 11, 2018 by frankblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, frankblack said: The Scottish tories are seen as the Grievance Party, who do nothing constructive other than oppose Independence at every oportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Cade said: Quoting and editing what you quoted is pretty childish, and hardly wins your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 2 hours ago, rudi must stay said: Yes but we don't share an island with them. Alot of major businesses said they would pull out of Scotland if we went independent last referendum, and that was no threat. We would be a new country with a new economy that's totally unproven. I don't see whats so wrong with the deal we have, our parliament has a say in most issues aside from foreign affairs, not bad for a country of 5 million. Look at the royal family, look at the tourism and what being part of Britain brings. We'd be cutting ourselves from all of that. It would be stupid IMO Mate your fears are as valid as anyone else’s and I can’t convince you otherwise it’s all fair enough. Its a sad state of affairs though that you feel a country we’ve been in a union with for over 300 years is going to nail us for taking control of our own affairs. The royal family thing doesn’t stand up either, more people visit France than here and let’s be honest Scotland has a deep and even a dark rich history that is enough to tempt people here. Unless they build some fortress at the border I fail to see how people wouldn’t come here too if they’re on this island. Not to mention the beauty of the place. To think people wouldn’t come because of the royals isn’t something I’d worry about but we all have different issues I suppose. It’s perfectly ok to want to remain British btw i have family exactly the same. I don’t hanker for Indy or obsess about it, I’m Indy leaning and if it happens it happens but equally if it doesn’t then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, frankblack said: I am not convinced that is practical as negotiations would need to take place immediately to agree settlement terms, currency, etc. I do agree with the latter point about the message, as I think the message is far from clear. At the end of the day, people want to know that their jobs and finances are going to be secure post independence. A lot of people feel that way and not against independence per se. They need some reassurance to allay fears but I think there's a lot to do to convince those who would change their mind. Scotland is a wealthy country but conveying that message into a strong narrative is proving difficult for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, frankblack said: The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence. So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers. All talk, no detail, no actions. There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’ Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’ Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise. This is a very good post if I may say so, sums it up perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’ Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 21 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’ Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise. Mate you will never be convinced. It wouldn’t matter what was laid before you you’d rubbish it. There could never be a plan anyway, much like brexit. Until it happens planning is pointless on the whole. Pragmatism would take over. We would have to give and take as would rUK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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