3-5-2

[hearts00]

Can only assume Levein is confident of Mitchell returning and has very high hopes for Brandon and Godinho when they get fit, as it is incredibly hard to believe he thinks we can play 3-5-2 with the current wing-backs at his disposal. 

 

Very concerning that the Aussie left back didn’t play today, what does that say about his quality that an Inverness reject is being played out of position ahead of him. 

 

It is all very worrying and it is not because of just this one game but because of the last two years. It is getting pretty hard to take to be honest. 

[hearts00]

36 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

352 is the preferred formation. We’ve tried to play that formation since we came back up to the Premier League, at various stages it’s worked, other stages it has failed miserably. What I can’t get my head round is how it has taken as many transfer windows to identify and bring in players to suit that formation. For 352 to work, your front 2 have to be the hardest working players on the park, them stretching the defence leaves the space for wing backs to exploit and get in behind. I don’t understand the thinking behind bringing Naismith back, yes he’ll be great for the young lads, but for me, he hasn’t done anything of note for us and doesn’t bring enough away from home. His legs are gone and his style doesn’t suit 352. Lafferty gets frustrated and drops deep and that makes it so easy for defenders to play against 352. We have 0, and I mean 0 decent options for wing back. Mulraney was released by caley thistle for a reason, he’s not good enough. Michael Smith is hard working but he isn’t a wing back. How has it taken us 4 transfer windows, 20 odd plus players in, maybe even more, to solve that problem when we have set out to play 352 for the past three seasons. Berra isn’t a footballing centre back, he doesn’t look comfortable on the ball and goes long far to often cause he’s doesnt want the ball at his feet. When Berra goes long it cuts out Lee and the rest of the midfield and they become redundant. The same problems have plagued us for the past 3 seasons and all the warning signs are there again for this “rebuild” not solving the problems. How can we have brought in 12 players and not one of them be wing back, crazy. What frustrates me the most is we have the players. We have enough decent players to be getting more out them. 352 is the worst formation for the players we have and it’s either (Levein has previous) the manager being stubborn sticking to 352 or, even more worrying, he doesn’t see it’s not working. For me we have the players to play a 4231 or a 4321, like we did more often than not in the championship. When the manager has to turn to youth on the bench today to change a game when two of the players he’s brought in are on the bench, that sets alarm bells off in my head. Edwards must be stinking, again something when probaly all ready knew considering he wasn’t wanted by relegated Partick.  This tinkering/money ball set up is awful and is going to continue to result in disjointed performances where nobody really looks like they know what they are doing. Serious question, when did we last name the same starting 11? Now go through the top 4 in our league and see if you can name the starting 11 of them. It’s no coincidence that we look disjointed compared to the teams we are chasing, we don’t know who our best players are. Shambles.  

 

Great post. And spot on. 

[No Nonsense]

I'm gonna withhold my judgement until we are a good few league games in. I expect us to be strong at home but we need to find something that works regardless of venue. That test will determine progress and the success of this summer transfer business. If we end up with a good home record and hee haw away from home then that is stagnation for a lot of effort and represents a failure.

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You need good players to play other formations. With our bog standard average players we should be playing 4-4-2  and keep it simple. But you know, what we really need is a manager that will encourage off the ball movement, high tempo passing and a desire to press the opposition high up the park. The early days of George Burley's reign really do seem light years away.... 

3

They are indeed but we were living above our means and you know what that led to.

I don't think we should be tied to any one system but as you imply in your 1st sentence you need players who fit into whatever formation you choose.

I was not at today's game but maybe someone who was could say if either/both of McLean and Ikpeazu had been available, might that have made a more positive impact.

[davie1980]

3 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You need good players to play other formations. With our bog standard average players we should be playing 4-4-2  

 

Nope.

 

Don't have any idea what you are talking about

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, busby1985 said:

352 is the preferred formation. We’ve tried to play that formation since we came back up to the Premier League, at various stages it’s worked, other stages it has failed miserably. What I can’t get my head round is how it has taken as many transfer windows to identify and bring in players to suit that formation. For 352 to work, your front 2 have to be the hardest working players on the park, them stretching the defence leaves the space for wing backs to exploit and get in behind. I don’t understand the thinking behind bringing Naismith back, yes he’ll be great for the young lads, but for me, he hasn’t done anything of note for us and doesn’t bring enough away from home. His legs are gone and his style doesn’t suit 352. Lafferty gets frustrated and drops deep and that makes it so easy for defenders to play against 352. We have 0, and I mean 0 decent options for wing back. Mulraney was released by caley thistle for a reason, he’s not good enough. Michael Smith is hard working but he isn’t a wing back. How has it taken us 4 transfer windows, 20 odd plus players in, maybe even more, to solve that problem when we have set out to play 352 for the past three seasons. Berra isn’t a footballing centre back, he doesn’t look comfortable on the ball and goes long far to often cause he’s doesnt want the ball at his feet. When Berra goes long it cuts out Lee and the rest of the midfield and they become redundant. The same problems have plagued us for the past 3 seasons and all the warning signs are there again for this “rebuild” not solving the problems. How can we have brought in 12 players and not one of them be wing back, crazy. What frustrates me the most is we have the players. We have enough decent players to be getting more out them. 352 is the worst formation for the players we have and it’s either (Levein has previous) the manager being stubborn sticking to 352 or, even more worrying, he doesn’t see it’s not working. For me we have the players to play a 4231 or a 4321, like we did more often than not in the championship. When the manager has to turn to youth on the bench today to change a game when two of the players he’s brought in are on the bench, that sets alarm bells off in my head. Edwards must be stinking, again something when probaly all ready knew considering he wasn’t wanted by relegated Partick.  This tinkering/money ball set up is awful and is going to continue to result in disjointed performances where nobody really looks like they know what they are doing. Serious question, when did we last name the same starting 11? Now go through the top 4 in our league and see if you can name the starting 11 of them. It’s no coincidence that we look disjointed compared to the teams we are chasing, we don’t know who our best players are. Shambles.  

Good post. Particularly the formation part.

 

A manager's job is to make the best from what he's got. Problem is, he's signed the players he wants to play 3-5-2 but if it doesn't work over the next while, will he be big enough to re-jig it?

 

Generally, I don't think our defence are overly comfy in possession but we also don't have the midfield good enough to compensate even if we stick with it.

 

Out wide too. There's no one to take it a run or have the quality to hold it up and create the play. We have to combine much better if this formation is to work.

 

Its early days as new players settle but we got away with it a few times today as the back 3 looked disjointed.  Against better sides we'd be getting done. 

 

 

[ramrod]

5 hours ago, Absolute Scenes said:

We lost one game out of 6 playing the formation this season so I'd say it works

Against utter Shite 

We will get ripped apart using this system with the personal we have . 

The goal we lost today was an utter joke  and we could have lost more . Not got the quality of player to persist with this formation. 

[Romulus]

Back 4 of 

 

Smith 

Souttar

Berra

Garruchio

 

Brozanic

Cochrane

Lee

 

Naismith

 

Lafferty

Uche

 

Would like to see something along those lines, still short of a good RB until the injuries return, could do with Demetri back and very much lacking in width. Still missing attacking players with pace! Milinkovic is a massive miss already.

[1971fozzy]

3-5-2 is an utter waste of time in this league never mind an absolute disaster today. The post above (from busby) is harsh for Naismith but in the main correct. We do not have the personnel good enough for this system. Additionally our manager is not able to see this or change formations depending on games. I’m no Levein hater but ffs why on earth play that today against oppposition 2 leagues below us ?

absolutely crazy. If we had the likes of Mitchell then there’s a case but we don’t. It doesn’t suit Lafferty who is arguably our best player and his frustration is clear to see.

He seems intent in using it. I’m not a pant wetter but I genuinely fear if this is what we are going to use against the better teams in the league. At home I’m confident but away from home we will be torn to shreds. 

Hope he’s got steel balls

Edited July 21, 2018 by 1971fozzy

[1971fozzy]

6 hours ago, Absolute Scenes said:

We lost one game out of 6 playing the formation this season so I'd say it works

 

FFS you never disappoint . Last 2 games against utter dug shite

Edited July 21, 2018 by 1971fozzy

[Pasquale for King]

What other teams do we play that  have 2 up front? Most will have one leaving us with a spare player at the back. Berra doesn’t want to be on the ball or exposed on the left, twice last season at Ibrox our best defender wasn’t where he was needed. Souttar can break forward all he wants, can anyone remind me the last time he did this and a chance never mind a goal was created? Mulraney is no world beater, a right winger playing at LWB who played their goal scorer onside because he’s not a defender. ICT rated him at the sane price as a guy who didn’t play a game for us in a season where we used 42 players.

We signed 13 players, why was Irving even near the squad on Wednesday as he’s years away from the standard required. If it wasn’t for a unlikely worldy from another average player we would’ve been beaten by a team who lost 2 nil against Cowdenbeath at home last week.CL reckons it was the players and the refs fault. What are his defenders going to say after this, you’re running out of excuses.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Pasquale for King

[Hansel]

We've signed practically a whole new team; it needs time to gel! 

[sadj]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

They are indeed but we were living above our means and you know what that led to.

I don't think we should be tied to any one system but as you imply in your 1st sentence you need players who fit into whatever formation you choose.

I was not at today's game but maybe someone who was could say if either/both of McLean and Ikpeazu had been available, might that have made a more positive impact.

No the biggest difference was having Smith in for Morrison. Smith isnt a flget the ball and drive at the defender as Mulraney and Morrison are. Due to that raith overloaded the right side and we stopped getting in behind them and they could sit narrow. Meant the midfield had no room to do anything. Once we went to four we had burns and morrison and smith and mcdonald giving width and it opened up a bit more but we were very poor until then.

[sadj]

1 hour ago, Debut 4 said:

Good post. Particularly the formation part.

 

A manager's job is to make the best from what he's got. Problem is, he's signed the players he wants to play 3-5-2 but if it doesn't work over the next while, will he be big enough to re-jig it?

 

Generally, I don't think our defence are overly comfy in possession but we also don't have the midfield good enough to compensate even if we stick with it.

 

Out wide too. There's no one to take it a run or have the quality to hold it up and create the play. We have to combine much better if this formation is to work.

 

Its early days as new players settle but we got away with it a few times today as the back 3 looked disjointed.  Against better sides we'd be getting done. 

 

 

Decent post , Berra seemed to look uncomfy on the left of the three. Him and Souttar were nipping at each other though.

[Big Moysey]

We are trying to shoehorn players into playing 3-5-2. I have been to most games so far and see teams notably QoS and Raith sit in, play 1 up front, then get everyone behind the ball. We do not have good enough players (in this formation) to combat that and the opposition has been from lower leagues! We are lacking pace and creativity and so far, a forward to put the ball in the net! Our play generally is back and sideways slow passing. My feeling is if we stick with this rigidly, better teams will be comfortable against us. I hope I am wrong and it comes together in the next few weeks. I imagine CL is a worried man just now.

[Nookie Bear]

I have no issue with 3-5-2 but you need the right players.

 

The wing backs seem to be the most important and in Mulraney we had a winger who can't defend (or attack, let's be honest) and Smith who can defend but not attack, bar one outrageous moment.

 

The last person to play a good defensive full back in a wing back role was Malofeev sticking Robbie out there at Easter Road. 

[King prawn]

8 hours ago, Mort said:

Back 4 of 

 

Smith 

Souttar

Berra

Garruchio

 

Brozanic

Cochrane

Lee

 

Naismith

 

Lafferty

Uche

 

Would like to see something along those lines, still short of a good RB until the injuries return, could do with Demetri back and very much lacking in width. Still missing attacking players with pace! Milinkovic is a massive miss already.

I know you’ve acknowledged it yourself but the lack of width worries me.

[merseyjambo]

3-5-2 is probably the right system for us but to do that you need the players in the positions to do that.

 

The 3 at the back are fine in my opinion. I’d be tempted to use Burns on the left in that formation. With both Brandon and Godinho injured, we should have gone out and got someone on the right to play in that that formation (even if it’s someone on loan). Bozanic I liked as I thought he had a good range of passing. Lee was too quiet yesterday, and with someone like Cochrane or Edwards in the middle with them it becomes a pretty good 3/5.

 

Up front is another issue. It’s too static. Naismith & Lafferty don’t have the legs to be giving defenders a torrid time. There’s no point in having someone who can cross a ball if there is no one in the box. It needs someone who is going to work the back line constantly with movement. Robbo was never the quickest but he was always on the move drawing defenders, so was Sandy Clark. Stating the obvious, it creates space for others to run into. We don’t have that and that is yet again a failure in recruiting the right players for the system you want to play. 

[BackOfTheNet]

I’m a fan of the 3-5-2 when deployed correctly as it assures bodies at the back while also having a spine that can link up on the deck to get it up the park quickly. And I’m willing to let the team have some game time to let it gel, as they’re all getting used to each other.

 

A few niggles I have are things like playing a player used to playing on the right wing as a left wing back when you have more natural options on the bench. (I’m hoping Levein is expecting Mitchell back to fulfill that role) Or playing Berra on the left of the back 3, I get it he’s left footed, but he’s better patrolling and making sure everyone is in line, passing it to passers rather than taking longer strides with the ball than he should or even throw-ins. Switch Souttar and Berra and I feel it would instantly operate better.

 

Another reason 3-5-2 may be a preferred option is our narrow pitch. Having wide players is great and all but they’re never as wide at Tynecastle as they would be elsewhere. Operating a more narrow system on a narrower pitch tends to make sense. Also allows a more rigid defensive formation away from home if needed. Problem last season when 3-5-2 was deployed was players weren’t used to it. If they get used to it and things click it could be a very useful formation indeed.

[JamboAl]

18 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

3-5-2 is probably the right system for us but to do that you need the players in the positions to do that.

 

The 3 at the back are fine in my opinion. I’d be tempted to use Burns on the left in that formation. With both Brandon and Godinho injured, we should have gone out and got someone on the right to play in that that formation (even if it’s someone on loan). Bozanic I liked as I thought he had a good range of passing. Lee was too quiet yesterday, and with someone like Cochrane or Edwards in the middle with them it becomes a pretty good 3/5.

 

Up front is another issue. It’s too static. Naismith & Lafferty don’t have the legs to be giving defenders a torrid time. There’s no point in having someone who can cross a ball if there is no one in the box. It needs someone who is going to work the back line constantly with movement. Robbo was never the quickest but he was always on the move drawing defenders, so was Sandy Clark. Stating the obvious, it creates space for others to run into. We don’t have that and that is yet again a failure in recruiting the right players for the system you want to play. 

If your last paragraph is right we have Big Uche and McLean to come in, not forgetting the early possibility of Vanecek.

[Glottis]

We've signed a whole team.

It'll take time especially when some players are unavailable.

 

We've signed enough players that we should be able to play 352, 442, 451.. etc.

Haring easily slotted into midfield as we went 4-5-1 yesterday

[E3OBE]

3-5-2 with wingbacks. Wingback is notoriously the most difficult position to play. You need to be an out-ball and creative in attack and seconds later defending your own backpost. (Personally don’t see anyone at Hearts currently that has that quality, Demi Mitchell does... But you’d need another Demi Mitchell for the right wingback)

 

4-2-3-1... What wingers do we have that we trust to create for us? 

 

Amankwaa?

Mulraney?

& a bunch of kids?

 

Amazingly after 13 signings our squad is still unbelievably imbalanced. No width or quality in key areas. We look like a side that is releatively solid at the moment but we’ll not be winning many games by more than a single goal if that. We look mid-table standard.

Edited July 22, 2018 by E3OBE

[HeartofHartley]

14 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Capello winning Serie A with Roma in 2000/01 was its come back. Bielsa been playing 3-3-1-3 for years but he nicked that from Cruyff at Barca. Walter Mazzarri played 3-4-3 at Napoli for years. Allegri 3-5-2 at Juve, Guardiola 3-4-3 at Barca and started last season at City playing 3-5-2.

 

The only reason it's come back to these shores is because British football is miles behind the rest of Europe tactically and it's takes foreign managers to introduce new innovations. No British coach has innovated football since Herbert Chapman or Vic Buckingham.

 

Everyone who plays a 4 man defence, they only play it with one striker. 4-4-2 is old fashioned and outdated because it's too flat. 3 at the back allows you to play with two strikers and to have 3 central midfielders, therefore it's a much more attacking formation IF played correctly. It's probably the way forward in the future.

 

I hope Levein doesn't bin it and keeps persevering with it.

Guardiola never played a 3-4-3 at Barca was always a 4-3-3.

[gashauskis9]

I don’t mind 3-5-2, but you need the right players in the right positions.  

 

For example, Wing back is imo 75% full back/25% winger, but we are using players in these positions that are the reverse.  I’d rather start the game with a full back in that position and then bring on a winger to inject pace later in the game.

 

Another issue, as raised above, is how your strikers play.  Naismith was dropping back yesterday into a position that was already taken up by Lee and Burns and it left Lafferty, and Bozanic, isolated in those positions.  If that is going to happen, then Lee has to sit deeper as I think Naismith has a natural tendency to drop back in to look for the ball.  The alternative is that Naismith plays at the top of the midfield 3 and we play another striker up with Lafferty.

 

Two ways we can play this (when we have a full squad available minus Djoum)

 

GK

 

Souttar

Haring

Berra

 

Smith

Cochrane

Lee (at the tip of the three)

Bozanic

Burns/Gauriccio

 

Naismith

Lafferty

 

Or

 

GK

 

Souttar

Haring

Berra

 

Smith

Cochrane

Naismith (at the tip)

Lee

Burns/Gauriccio

 

Uche/McLean

Lafferty

 

In both formations, we still have energetic guys like McDonald, Morrison, Edwards, Mulraney and Keena who can come off the bench.

 

One thing that struck me yesterday was how important a player Cochrane was going to be this season.  Whilst we’ve signed three more experienced midfielders, I still think he’s a better player with more time his game.

[mitch41]

16 hours ago, Absolute Scenes said:

We lost one game out of 6 playing the formation this season so I'd say it works

We want to win games not have the attitude of we weren't beat. This is the Scottish game 

not the English German Spanish or Italian league. 

[moby]

I think for 3 at the back to work he's got to put Berra in the middle. His job first and foremost is to win the ball which he's does well, but as soon as he looks to build an attack he just looks awkward with the ball at his feet, and as others have mentioned he can only try a long diagonal or slice it out the park. If he's in the middle he can still be as commanding but doesn't need to do the footballing side of it. That's what Souttar and Haring are there to do. If we can get the balance in the back 3 right and shift the ball forward quicker then we will have half a chance. But if it continues to go the way it's going it's gonna be a long season.

[merseyjambo]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

If your last paragraph is right we have Big Uche and McLean to come in, not forgetting the early possibility of Vanecek.

 

And what have you seen in McLean that is going to cause defences problems??? Uche may or may not have the capability to do so, we don’t know. Vanacek, file as unlikely to be here before January unless we can get a bit of cash together. 

 

All of these players inducing Lafferty are too similar. We need a different option to play up front, to drag defences about, give them no peace. 

 

 

[Romulus]

17 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

 

And what have you seen in McLean that is going to cause defences problems??? Uche may or may not have the capability to do so, we don’t know. Vanacek, file as unlikely to be here before January unless we can get a bit of cash together. 

 

All of these players inducing Lafferty are too similar. We need a different option to play up front, to drag defences about, give them no peace. 

 

 

Correct. Oh what I would do for us to sign a fast striker who can get in behind defences. Can’t remember the last one we had that was any good!

[kingantti1874]

We seemed to improve when we stopped playing it.. says it all for me.

[Elshin]

35 minutes ago, moby said:

I think for 3 at the back to work he's got to put Berra in the middle. His job first and foremost is to win the ball which he's does well, but as soon as he looks to build an attack he just looks awkward with the ball at his feet, and as others have mentioned he can only try a long diagonal or slice it out the park. If he's in the middle he can still be as commanding but doesn't need to do the footballing side of it. That's what Souttar and Haring are there to do. If we can get the balance in the back 3 right and shift the ball forward quicker then we will have half a chance. But if it continues to go the way it's going it's gonna be a long season.

 

Agree is it is 3 at the back berra has to go in the middle.   Makes it easier for him to commpand the back 3/5 when needed than being stuck at left back position at times.

 

For me there is not a need for 3 at the back.  Our best area last season was defence, we seem to be playing about with the main area that did not need fixed.

 

Also with a back 4, if smith is rb then he can tuck in to make a back 3 if we wish to have a very attacking left back.  

 

It takes a special type of player to play wing backs and i just dont think we have them in our squad.  

[JamboAl]

38 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

 

And what have you seen in McLean that is going to cause defences problems??? Uche may or may not have the capability to do so, we don’t know. Vanacek, file as unlikely to be here before January unless we can get a bit of cash together. 

 

All of these players inducing Lafferty are too similar. We need a different option to play up front, to drag defences about, give them no peace. 

 

 

From what I gather we did have a different option yesterday and more so when Lafferty went off.  It doesn't appear to have paid off.

I have not seen Uche yet but it seems that whatever his shortcomings he's a right handful for defences.  McLean didn't particularly stand out for me with the fermers but he has the experience that might have been valuable yesterday.

[jambog]

If we persist with 3 5 2 would have thought Liam Smith would be a better bet in an attacking sense.

 

Any idea what’s happening with him?

[DVB]

3-5-2 is going to hurt us.

 

Berra and the wing backs are being played out of position.

 

There is little width to unlock defences.

 

 

[Captain Canada]

We seem to be fitting players into a formation rather than playing one that suits who we have at our disposal. 

 

Levein has always played guys out of position and doesn't seem to learn from it. Hopefully we'll see a strong attacking formation on Tuesday night. 

 

I'd go for something like this if Lafferty is injured. 

 

Doyle

 

Morrison Souttar Berra Burns 

 

Naismith Lee Bozanic 

 

Edwards 

 

MacLean Uche (if fit) 

 

Subs: 

 

Bobby, Keena, Haring, M.Smith, Currie, Amankwaa, Mulraney

[Cruyff Turn]

2 hours ago, HeartofHartley said:

Guardiola never played a 3-4-3 at Barca was always a 4-3-3.

Yes he has, millions of times. 

[HeartofHartley]

1 hour ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Yes he has, millions of times. 

Name me the team played in that formation for barca? 

[Cruyff Turn]

2 minutes ago, HeartofHartley said:

Name me the team played in that formation for barca? 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04/03/barcelona-3-1-milan-guardiola-goes-with-a-3-3-4/

 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/29/barcelona-5-0-villarreal-tactics/

 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/03/13/barcelona-4-0-milan-tactics/

 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04/25/barcelona-2-2-chelsea-tactics/

 

[Jambo92]

Whenever we play 3-5-2 our wingbacks seem to be caught neither attacking nor defending.  3 at the back is a waste esp. against lower opposition.  The 3 defenders marking one striker is a waste of a body.  Mulraney shouldn't be used as a wing back, we all know the main asset he has is his pace, but he doesn't have the brain to defend, he was in constantly caught ball watching defensively.  I believe he should only be used from the bench into a left wing position to inject some pace into games.  On the right Smith ironically gives us no real attacking threat, neat and tidy right back but limited going forward (yes I realise his wonderstrike).  Go 4-4-2 and take the game to teams, we should be confident of winning 80% of the games we go into, 3-5-2 with our squad is far to defensive.

[Spellczech]

22 hours ago, hearts00 said:

Can only assume Levein is confident of Mitchell returning and has very high hopes for Brandon and Godinho when they get fit, as it is incredibly hard to believe he thinks we can play 3-5-2 with the current wing-backs at his disposal. 

 

Very concerning that the Aussie left back didn’t play today, what does that say about his quality that an Inverness reject is being played out of position ahead of him. 

 

It is all very worrying and it is not because of just this one game but because of the last two years. It is getting pretty hard to take to be honest. 

This is the bit that annoys me. What is the point in adding 13 new faces if we still have to play players out of position? 13 is more than a whole team and half a squad...

 

Sometimes I think Levein just keeps on trying to find rough diamonds like Hartley and McKenna and keeps trying people in the wrong positions just to see...?

 

Simple truth is that most professional footballers at the level we recruit at are able to play one position, and occasionally cover at a second for one game if really necessary due to injury restrictions or other expediency.

 

Every manager we have seems to regard himself as some sort of footballing alchemist...

[CMc]

I’ve seen us play many games with 442 and get swarmed in central midfield. 

 

A three man midfield is almost essential these days. 

 

Played well, one of the CBs and the second striker should be able to drop in as well in 3-5-2. 

 

Weve bought a whole new midfield. They’ll need to learn each other’s games before we see the try potential. 

[Futurejambo]

11 hours ago, jambog said:

If we persist with 3 5 2 would have thought Liam Smith would be a better bet in an attacking sense.

 

Any idea what’s happening with him?

Frozen out by the look of it, been playing at CH in two friendlys then playerd with youth team b Tynir today. Had hoped he get a chance either at RB or RWB. 

[Cruyff Turn]

It needs time and some patience. There is no point in ripping it up after one bad result. To scrap it now would mean our whole pre season and training sessions, working on how to play it, were just a complete waste of time. 

 

4-4-2 is a way of the past. All the opposition needs to do is stick 2 men in front of our midfield/in front their back 4,and one behind our midfield/front of our defence. Firstly we'd be 3 vs 2, secondly all our passing lanes between our midfield and attack are blocked, our midfield to wide men blocked by the opposition wide players and full backs, we'd have no where to go except backwards. Even then we can be pressed by the guy in front of our back 4, behind our midfield. What happens when that team has the ball? The guy in front of our defence can't be marked. 

 

It simply doesn't work, it's too flat, it can take it's place in history along side the W-M and the sweeper formations.

Unless of course you launch the ball back to front and miss out the entire midfield, or the full backs tank it down the channels for wingers and strikers to chase. If you want to watch prehistoric, long ball, kick and press, fighting for 2nd balls, scrappy shite, 4-4-2 is the way to go.

 

4-3-3 would require two quality wingers and an excellent CF who can hold up the ball. I don't think we have the quality in those departments, do we have two quality wingers? Had we signed Milinkovic and another winger of that ilk, then it's possibly a go'er. 

 

We could play 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1/4-5-1 whatever you want to call it but do folk want to play with 1 striker? Complain about the lack of goals and negativity but can't comprehend trying to play a certain way with two strikers. 

 

We could play 4-3-1-2/4-1-2-1-2/4-1-3-2, a narrow midfield. We'd need some absolute ballers in midfield to keep possession playing side to side, while we work out full backs forward, until some big Dinosaur with a king rib supper shouts "get the bar up the park."

 

3-5-2 is giving us the opportunity to play with two strikers, which is what people want to see, right? but it also allows us 3 central midfielders, to get players in between the opposition lines, play through teams and we also cannot be outnumbered in the centre of the park or through the middle of the pitch in general. Yes, the obvious weakness is down the flanks, but if teams can't play through us it limits their chances to mainly wide areas, but with 3 big centerhalfs who can defend crosses then it makes it difficult for teams to score.

 

It will be a successful way of playing when our players understand their roles and responsibilities, but that will take practice and time. Motherwell played that all last season and finished a few of points behind us but got to two cup finals with a small squad and about a 5th of our budget. Various teams outside Italy do it extremely well, Hoffenheim are great at it and it's attacking, it isn't negative.

 

I agree with those however about the players needed to play the wing back positions. Demitri Mitchell is a perfect wing back, not a bad defender but very good on the ball in attack, and quick. We don't really have anyone with the pace, a bit defensive knowledge or the ability on the ball to play these positions at the moment, that is one of the biggest problems we could face. Of course, Garuccio is still to come back and there's a slim chance we might get Mitchell or a replacement for him. So we haven't played it with the right balance yet. The right side could still be a problematic however. 

 

 I'm confident this will click eventually, I think it might take time but hopefully we persevere with it until we iron out the errors and then we will see some good attacking football.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Cruyff Turn

[merseyjambo]

36 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It needs time and some patience. There is no point in ripping it up after one bad result. To scrap it now would mean our whole pre season and training sessions, working on how to play it, were just a complete waste of time. 

 

4-4-2 is a way of the past. All the opposition needs to do is stick 2 men in front of our midfield/in front their back 4,and one behind our midfield/front of our defence. Firstly we'd be 3 vs 2, secondly all our passing lanes between our midfield and attack are blocked, our midfield to wide men blocked by the opposition wide players and full backs, we'd have no where to go except backwards. Even then we can be pressed by the guy in front of our back 4, behind our midfield. What happens when that team has the ball? The guy in front of our defence can't be marked. 

 

It simply doesn't work, it's too flat, it can take it's place in history along side the W-M and the sweeper formations.

Unless of course you launch the ball back to front and miss out the entire midfield, or the full backs tank it down the channels for wingers and strikers to chase. If you want to watch prehistoric, long ball, kick and press, fighting for 2nd balls, scrappy shite, 4-4-2 is the way to go.

 

4-3-3 would require two quality wingers and an excellent CF who can hold up the ball. I don't think we have the quality in those departments, do we have two quality wingers? Had we signed Milinkovic and another winger of that ilk, then it's possibly a go'er. 

 

We could play 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1/4-5-1 whatever you want to call it but do folk want to play with 1 striker? Complain about the lack of goals and negativity but can't comprehend trying to play a certain way with two strikers. 

 

We could play 4-3-1-2/4-1-2-1-2/4-1-3-2, a narrow midfield. We'd need some absolute ballers in midfield to keep possession playing side to side, while we work out full backs forward, until some big Dinosaur with a king rib supper shouts "get the bar up the park."

 

3-5-2 is giving us the opportunity to play with two strikers, which is what people want to see, right? but it also allows us 3 central midfielders, to get players in between the opposition lines, play through teams and we also cannot be outnumbered in the centre of the park or through the middle of the pitch in general. Yes, the obvious weakness is down the flanks, but if teams can't play through us it limits their chances to mainly wide areas, but with 3 big centerhalfs who can defend crosses then it makes it difficult for teams to score.

 

It will be a successful way of playing when our players understand their roles and responsibilities, but that will take practice and time. Motherwell played that all last season and finished a few of points behind us but got to two cup finals with a small squad and about a 5th of our budget. Various teams outside Italy do it extremely well, Hoffenheim are great at it and it's attacking, it isn't negative.

 

I agree with those however about the players needed to play the wing back positions. Demitri Mitchell is a perfect wing back, not a bad defender but very good on the ball in attack, and quick. We don't really have anyone with the pace, a bit defensive knowledge or the ability on the ball to play these positions at the moment, that is one of the biggest problems we could face. Of course, Garuccio is still to come back and there's a slim chance we might get Mitchell or a replacement for him. So we haven't played it with the right balance yet. The right side could still be a problematic however. 

 

 I'm confident this will click eventually, I think it might take time but hopefully we persevere with it until we iron out the errors and then we will see some good attacking football.

 

 

I’d be happy enough to be patient if we had gone out in the summer with a plan and signed the right players to fit in the system.

 

The 3 at the back will be fine once they have got themselves sorted with a bit more game time. Brandon/Godinho are our best 2 options on the right, both of whom are longer term injuries. Neither Smith is suited to that position (Michael may be more suited to a position in back 3). Nothing has been done to rectify the left but IMO, Burns would be a good option. 

 

Midfield 3??? Bozanic looks like he has a range of passing. Lee??? Edwards??? Cochrane??? If you play 3, does it work more with someone like Adao who acts as protection for the back 3 giving the wingbacks a bit more freedom??? No one brought in is an outright midfield sitter.

 

Up front, you need your forward line to be working the defence. Something that neither Lafferty or Naismith seem to be capable of doing. Fantastic players but are not going to be dragging defences all over the place. There is a lack of pace in the forward line that I’m not sure Uche or McLean will solve.

 

To play the system, it needs the right players to be brought in and I don’t think we have. 3-5-2 usually involves attacking at pace, which is something we don’t appear to be capable of. Our front line is slow and there didn’t appear to be runners from the middle of the park (Edwards may be ideal for this role). Mulraney isn’t a wing back and from what I’ve seen delivers a poor ball. On the right Smith is not the answer. Playing 3-5-2 doesn’t work when teams sit in and the manager doesn’t seem to want to change it quickly enough as was apparent on Saturday. 

 

There appears to to have been no plan as to bringing players in to play in the preferred system. You can’t shoehorn players into it

[mitch41]

On 7/21/2018 at 22:00, hearts00 said:

Can only assume Levein is confident of Mitchell returning and has very high hopes for Brandon and Godinho when they get fit, as it is incredibly hard to believe he thinks we can play 3-5-2 with the current wing-backs at his disposal. 

 

Very concerning that the Aussie left back didn’t play today, what does that say about his quality that an Inverness reject is being played out of position ahead of him. 

 

It is all very worrying and it is not because of just this one game but because of the last two years. It is getting pretty hard to take to be honest. 

We don't need 3 centre backs. 2 full backs that can fire forward with a defensive midfielder that can cover them when needed is what all good teams play.

Levein has this thing in his head about 3 centre backs and he needs to realise it's just not needed against teams that have inferior players to Hearts.

Will Levein change ? I think we all know how stubborn and defensive minded he can be so i wouldn't hold your breath.

Edited July 23, 2018 by mitch41

[mitch41]

3 hours ago, merseyjambo said:

 

I’d be happy enough to be patient if we had gone out in the summer with a plan and signed the right players to fit in the system.

 

The 3 at the back will be fine once they have got themselves sorted with a bit more game time. Brandon/Godinho are our best 2 options on the right, both of whom are longer term injuries. Neither Smith is suited to that position (Michael may be more suited to a position in back 3). Nothing has been done to rectify the left but IMO, Burns would be a good option. 

 

Midfield 3??? Bozanic looks like he has a range of passing. Lee??? Edwards??? Cochrane??? If you play 3, does it work more with someone like Adao who acts as protection for the back 3 giving the wingbacks a bit more freedom??? No one brought in is an outright midfield sitter.

 

Up front, you need your forward line to be working the defence. Something that neither Lafferty or Naismith seem to be capable of doing. Fantastic players but are not going to be dragging defences all over the place. There is a lack of pace in the forward line that I’m not sure Uche or McLean will solve.

 

To play the system, it needs the right players to be brought in and I don’t think we have. 3-5-2 usually involves attacking at pace, which is something we don’t appear to be capable of. Our front line is slow and there didn’t appear to be runners from the middle of the park (Edwards may be ideal for this role). Mulraney isn’t a wing back and from what I’ve seen delivers a poor ball. On the right Smith is not the answer. Playing 3-5-2 doesn’t work when teams sit in and the manager doesn’t seem to want to change it quickly enough as was apparent on Saturday. 

 

There appears to to have been no plan as to bringing players in to play in the preferred system. You can’t shoehorn players into it

Agreed and i believe to have Soapy, Berra & Harring all playing in the team at the same time usually against 1 striker is just not needed.

[gashauskis9]

12 hours ago, Spellczech said:

This is the bit that annoys me. What is the point in adding 13 new faces if we still have to play players out of position? 13 is more than a whole team and half a squad...

 

Sometimes I think Levein just keeps on trying to find rough diamonds like Hartley and McKenna and keeps trying people in the wrong positions just to see...?

 

Simple truth is that most professional footballers at the level we recruit at are able to play one position, and occasionally cover at a second for one game if really necessary due to injury restrictions or other expediency.

 

Every manager we have seems to regard himself as some sort of footballing alchemist...

Amen.  This is the point I’ve been trying to make all weekend.  13 new players and still square pegs in round holes.

[mitch41]

On 7/22/2018 at 08:03, King prawn said:

I know you’ve acknowledged it yourself but the lack of width worries me.

We need Mulraney in there some how. He's never a wing back, that might or might not happen in the future, and playing 

him wide mostly with the option of sometimes through the middle on a break could be very productive with his speed. 

Levein's attitude has to be more about winning games than not getting beat. He has to have more confidence in Soapy 

and Berra or Harring if one is out for some reason. If Mulraney isn't the answer we will need a winger with real pace.

[King prawn]

Just now, mitch41 said:

We need Mulraney in there some how. He's never a wing back, that might or might not happen in the future, and playing 

him wide mostly with the option of sometimes through the middle on a break could be very productive with his speed. 

Levein's attitude has to be more about winning games than not getting beat. He has to have more confidence in Soapy 

and Berra or Harring if one is out for some reason. If Mulraney isn't the answer we will need a winger with real pace.

I agree Mulraney is never a wing back. We’re asking a guy who didn’t play much for Inverness to play a pivotal role too soon imo. 

 

It’s not only about pace though - someone on here correctly called Barker a speedboat without a rudder.

[busby1985]

4 hours ago, merseyjambo said:

 

I’d be happy enough to be patient if we had gone out in the summer with a plan and signed the right players to fit in the system.

 

The 3 at the back will be fine once they have got themselves sorted with a bit more game time. Brandon/Godinho are our best 2 options on the right, both of whom are longer term injuries. Neither Smith is suited to that position (Michael may be more suited to a position in back 3). Nothing has been done to rectify the left but IMO, Burns would be a good option. 

 

Midfield 3??? Bozanic looks like he has a range of passing. Lee??? Edwards??? Cochrane??? If you play 3, does it work more with someone like Adao who acts as protection for the back 3 giving the wingbacks a bit more freedom??? No one brought in is an outright midfield sitter.

 

Up front, you need your forward line to be working the defence. Something that neither Lafferty or Naismith seem to be capable of doing. Fantastic players but are not going to be dragging defences all over the place. There is a lack of pace in the forward line that I’m not sure Uche or McLean will solve.

 

To play the system, it needs the right players to be brought in and I don’t think we have. 3-5-2 usually involves attacking at pace, which is something we don’t appear to be capable of. Our front line is slow and there didn’t appear to be runners from the middle of the park (Edwards may be ideal for this role). Mulraney isn’t a wing back and from what I’ve seen delivers a poor ball. On the right Smith is not the answer. Playing 3-5-2 doesn’t work when teams sit in and the manager doesn’t seem to want to change it quickly enough as was apparent on Saturday. 

 

There appears to to have been no plan as to bringing players in to play in the preferred system. You can’t shoehorn players into it

Agree with everything you’ve said. I’d add that we have been playing 352 as the preferred formation since we came back up to the premier league. Robbie knew how to work with or control Levein more than I ever gave him credit for, hence the reason robbie kept reverting back to 4321 etc. I find it quiet incredible that it has taken so many transfer windows and so many players in and we still don’t have the players to play 352. If a new manager came in now and said we needed 6 new players and a restructure, none of us would bat an eye lid cause we look miles away from where we should be. We honestly look like we’ve focused purely on fitness and no time at all on shape and organisation. Another shambles of a pre season. Another waste of wages aswell. 

[Nookie Bear]

If we are going to have a 'spare' centre back, would it not make more sense to put Hughes in there, to use his intelligence?