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Penalties at the World Cup


Maroon Sailor

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Maroon Sailor

Just about every other game has had a penalty so it seems.

 

How many have been given by VAR ?

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luckyBatistuta

Think I read a few days ago that they almost had as many as the whole of the last World Cup already. If they were all penalties then great, but we’ve still got controversy over some. Think they should stick with the VAR and maybe keep tweaking any probs that arise with it.

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rudi must stay

Far too many given. Great to see goals, but plenty have been dubious. Hopefully later on in the tournament there will be less given

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Maroon Sailor

It's quite conceivable VAR could give a penalty every game.

 

Not sure that's a great road to go down. That one today against the Danish guy was dubious to say the least.

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I think today’s had been the first one given incorrectly. Not VAR’s fault but the refs. 

 

Overall I’m actually a fan off var but you can’t help if the ref still calls it wrong. 

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I P Knightley
10 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Not many dubious ones for me.

 

England should have had another 2 for Kane.

Really?

 

If that were the case, I'd've thought I'd have read about it in the British sports media... :sarcasm:

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4 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

Really?

 

If that were the case, I'd've thought I'd have read about it in the British sports media... :sarcasm:

I've always been of the opinion that you could probably pick out a penalty at almost every corner kick.

Plenty pushing and grabbing as the ball comes in.

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Personally I think the controversy is part of the game and adds to the drama.

 

If they take those WTF moments out of the game it will be a loss.

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Maroon Sailor
Just now, Bauld said:

Personally I think the controversy is part of the game and adds to the drama.

 

If they take those WTF moments out of the game it will be a loss.

 

It's like Big Brother football

 

Iran go crazy after the ball is smashed in to the Spanish net and then it's ruled out after about 3 minutes

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Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It's like Big Brother football

 

Iran go crazy after the ball is smashed in to the Spanish net and then it's ruled out after about 3 minutes

 

Refs probably like it because it gives them a layer of protection. 

 

But players aren't robots. They make mistakes every game and human error plays a big part in every game.

 

I think the human error from the refs is just part of what makes the game so entertaining. 

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Maroon Sailor

The ref saw the incident in the Denmark / Australia match and waved play on. 

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

I thought VAR did its job today. That was a stick on pen - arm in an unnatural position stops a header on target. Don't understand the yellow card though. 

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Maroon Sailor
8 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

I thought VAR did its job today. That was a stick on pen - arm in an unnatural position stops a header on target. Don't understand the yellow card though. 

 

No way that was a penalty !

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic
1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

No way that was a penalty !

 

A raised arm stops a shot on target? That's a pen to me all day long. 

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5 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

A raised arm stops a shot on target? That's a pen to me all day long. 

 

Agreed - he even flicks it with his hand as it hits it.  You can't have your arms up in that position in the penalty area. 

 

If that wasn't given against your team, you'd be absolutely raging. 

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VAR can't be perfect. It's still someone's decision, be it a ref or a guy sitting at a monitor. For penalties, it's up to what they think.

Offsides, aye, easier to call and goal line technology is fool proof.

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Maroon Sailor
3 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

Agreed - he even flicks it with his hand as it hits it.  You can't have your arms up in that position in the penalty area. 

 

If that wasn't given against your team, you'd be absolutely raging. 

 

If that was Berra's arm it hit I'd be raging if VAR gave that. The ref who was close to the incident waved play on - so he saw it in real time and deemed it not to be worthy of a penalty.

 

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25 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

I thought VAR did its job today. That was a stick on pen - arm in an unnatural position stops a header on target. Don't understand the yellow card though. 

 

Stick on :rofl:

 

What absolute shite.

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1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

If that was Berra's arm it hit I'd be raging if VAR gave that. The ref who was close to the incident waved play on - so he saw it in real time and deemed it not to be worthy of a penalty.

 

Agreed, when the boy jumped then of course his arms will lift. However, his arms were well away from the ball when it was played in and there is no way he could have moved them out of the way once the Aussie had headed the ball on. I was amazed that the shirt pulling foul later in the game wasn't pulled up by VAR. In contrast to the handball his arm was obviously in an unnatural position to pull the shirt, he made him stumble and interrupt the attack and it was clearly deliberate. Funny old game

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luckyBatistuta
12 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

A raised arm stops a shot on target? That's a pen to me all day long. 

 

It wasn’t deliberate though

 

1 minute ago, Boab said:

VAR can't be perfect. It's still someone's decision, be it a ref or a guy sitting at a monitor. For penalties, it's up to what they think.

Offsides, aye, easier to call and goal line technology is fool proof.

 

You’re right, it’s still somebody decision. It does give them that extra opportunity to get things right though (which is a good thing) even if they sometimes still screw it up and get it wrong :laugh:

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15 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

A raised arm stops a shot on target? That's a pen to me all day long. 

 

He doesn't raise his arm to stop the ball though?

 

1. It's not deliberate.

 

2. It's ball to hand.

 

3. It happens so quickly he doesn't even have the chance to react.

 

It's all in the rules as ITV have shown. No idea how the ref got it wrong.

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic
3 minutes ago, Gershwin said:

 

Stick on :rofl:

 

What absolute shite.

 

Ok. Just chewing the fat about it, mate. 

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Maroon Sailor
Just now, Gershwin said:

 

He doesn't raise his arm to stop the ball though?

 

1. It's not deliberate.

 

2. It's ball to hand.

 

3. It happens so quickly he doesn't even have the chance to react.

 

It's all in the rules as ITV have shown. No idea how the ref got it wrong.

 

 The ref got it right but VAR put him under pressure to have a look at the monitor and he changed his mind

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luckyBatistuta
29 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Don't understand the yellow card though. 

 

This is where the rest of the league mainly get done over by Celtic and Rangers every single season. Every team gets ridiculous cards shown against their players every week playing against them and end up with players serving suspensions and missing vital games, whilst folk like Brown and his teammates go around committing foul after foul, with no action taken. VAR isn’t going to stop this injustice imo (hope to be proved wrong)

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Maroon Sailor

Anybody changed their mind about VAR giving the Aussies a penalty ?

 

Just heard the pundits on BBC1 and not one of them thought it was a penalty.

 

 VAR has to be right all the time imo otherwise get rid of it

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No longer worth betting on there being  penalty in a match, it's gone from around 5/1 at the start of the tournament in to just under 2/1.

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Maroon Sailor
2 minutes ago, graygo said:

No longer worth betting on there being  penalty in a match, it's gone from around 5/1 at the start of the tournament in to just under 2/1.

 

I think they could open a separate list for ref pens and VAR pens

 

VAR is going to be interesting in the knock out stages. They better get every one of those decisions spot on

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3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

I think they could open a separate list for ref pens and VAR pens

 

VAR is going to be interesting in the knock out stages. They better get every one of those decisions spot on

 

I think it was Mr Lawson who mentioned it but the refs are reluctant to give penalties.

If they don't give it and get it wrong VAR will step in and award it, they can't give it if they don't see it and we all move on.

If they do give it and VAR overrules them they will get slaughtered for seeing something that didn't happen.

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Saint Jambo

People seem desperate to criticise VAR. Claiming that you like referee mistakes because it brings excitement to the game is only a credible position if you are happy to accept it when it goes against Hearts. If those people are out there you are very quiet when Hearts are done over by a ref's mistake.

 

The handball is an interesting one. I think the current interpretation of the handball rule, with having your arm in an 'unnatural position' being deemed to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger and therefore is handball. (The Denmark manager has said it was a penalty suggesting he understands this current interpretation.) That interpretation was helpful for ref's because in real time it was so hard to see whether a player moved a hand towards the ball. I think now with VAR they might need to return to the old interpretation of 'hand to ball' being required for a handball to be given.

 

Holding in the box seems to being judged to a different standard but as with handball I'd argue that it is being consistently applied between games which is the most important thing. The difficulty with this foul is whilst the coverage might focus on one obvious foul, when you look closely both players were often fouling each other at the start and there are lots of other less obvious fouls going on. For example the first and many have argued most obvious foul on Kane also saw a really clear push by Stones on a Tunisian defender. In that circumstance how do you decide who to award the free kick to? The biggest mistake FIFA made in this case was wrongly claiming they were going to clamp down on it pre-tournament.

 

I think the world cup has seen great use of VAR.  It seems to be working much better than in the earlier trials with quicker and more accurate decisions. I don't get the argument it has to be 100% accurate either. Surely if with it you have 1 mistake where without it you would have had 10 that is a major improvement? It's east from the outside to complain about losing the excitement of Iran's celebration (even though the flag was raised immediately) but ask Spain fans and I imagine they are happy or ask Ireland fans if they would have wanted VAR when Henry scored following a handball and they'd bite your hand off.

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Sandy Clark
8 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

People seem desperate to criticise VAR. Claiming that you like referee mistakes because it brings excitement to the game is only a credible position if you are happy to accept it when it goes against Hearts. If those people are out there you are very quiet when Hearts are done over by a ref's mistake.

 

The handball is an interesting one. I think the current interpretation of the handball rule, with having your arm in an 'unnatural position' being deemed to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger and therefore is handball. (The Denmark manager has said it was a penalty suggesting he understands this current interpretation.) That interpretation was helpful for ref's because in real time it was so hard to see whether a player moved a hand towards the ball. I think now with VAR they might need to return to the old interpretation of 'hand to ball' being required for a handball to be given.

 

Holding in the box seems to being judged to a different standard but as with handball I'd argue that it is being consistently applied between games which is the most important thing. The difficulty with this foul is whilst the coverage might focus on one obvious foul, when you look closely both players were often fouling each other at the start and there are lots of other less obvious fouls going on. For example the first and many have argued most obvious foul on Kane also saw a really clear push by Stones on a Tunisian defender. In that circumstance how do you decide who to award the free kick to? The biggest mistake FIFA made in this case was wrongly claiming they were going to clamp down on it pre-tournament.

 

I think the world cup has seen great use of VAR.  It seems to be working much better than in the earlier trials with quicker and more accurate decisions. I don't get the argument it has to be 100% accurate either. Surely if with it you have 1 mistake where without it you would have had 10 that is a major improvement? It's east from the outside to complain about losing the excitement of Iran's celebration (even though the flag was raised immediately) but ask Spain fans and I imagine they are happy or ask Ireland fans if they would have wanted VAR when Henry scored following a handball and they'd bite your hand off.

 

It is genuinely worrying you have posted such nonsense. Please have a word with yourself and if you cannot see any issues then please do seek help.

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Saint Jambo
10 minutes ago, cmonthegorgie said:

 

It is genuinely worrying you have posted such nonsense. Please have a word with yourself and if you cannot see any issues then please do seek help.

What a well thought out and reasoned response. Certainly convinced me. Clear to me you are on a higher level with your understanding of the game. I do hope to read more of your posts in the future.

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The penalty in the Denmark game can be compared to the penalty from the 2012 SC semi final.

 

Correct me if i’m wrong but i’m not sure ‘deliberate’ comes into the decision to award a penalty.

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shaun.lawson
3 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

People seem desperate to criticise VAR. Claiming that you like referee mistakes because it brings excitement to the game is only a credible position if you are happy to accept it when it goes against Hearts. If those people are out there you are very quiet when Hearts are done over by a ref's mistake.

 

The handball is an interesting one. I think the current interpretation of the handball rule, with having your arm in an 'unnatural position' being deemed to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger and therefore is handball. (The Denmark manager has said it was a penalty suggesting he understands this current interpretation.) That interpretation was helpful for ref's because in real time it was so hard to see whether a player moved a hand towards the ball. I think now with VAR they might need to return to the old interpretation of 'hand to ball' being required for a handball to be given.

 

Holding in the box seems to being judged to a different standard but as with handball I'd argue that it is being consistently applied between games which is the most important thing. The difficulty with this foul is whilst the coverage might focus on one obvious foul, when you look closely both players were often fouling each other at the start and there are lots of other less obvious fouls going on. For example the first and many have argued most obvious foul on Kane also saw a really clear push by Stones on a Tunisian defender. In that circumstance how do you decide who to award the free kick to? The biggest mistake FIFA made in this case was wrongly claiming they were going to clamp down on it pre-tournament.

 

I think the world cup has seen great use of VAR.  It seems to be working much better than in the earlier trials with quicker and more accurate decisions. I don't get the argument it has to be 100% accurate either. Surely if with it you have 1 mistake where without it you would have had 10 that is a major improvement? It's east from the outside to complain about losing the excitement of Iran's celebration (even though the flag was raised immediately) but ask Spain fans and I imagine they are happy or ask Ireland fans if they would have wanted VAR when Henry scored following a handball and they'd bite your hand off.

 

Great post. No idea what motivated the bizarre first response you had. I also thought it was a pen in the Den-Aus game. Penalties are given much less often for handballs nowadays - the laws were changed a year or two back in such regard - but under the law as it stands now, it was the right call. 

 

VAR's still a work in progress, and subject to the human error of those in charge of it. So sometimes mistakes will happen. But it's working about a million times better than during the FA Cup - chiefly because they're not allowing it to cause prolonged, artificial breaks in play. Hopefully, by the time of the next World Cup, they'll have ironed out its various kinks. 

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6 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

What a well thought out and reasoned response. Certainly convinced me. Clear to me you are on a higher level with your understanding of the game. I do hope to read more of your posts in the future.

 

:lol:

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8 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

People seem desperate to criticise VAR. .

I think it has worked well, certainly better than I had expected. It's just an impression but I feel there have been fewer offsides and games flowed better given following the instruction not to flag for marginal decisions and only check if they lead to a goal. I do think though that the handball VAR yesterday was a mistake. The wording they seem to use is correcting a clear and obvious mistake and, given the debate and differences of opinion, that handball didn't seem to fall into that category. In cricket the video supports the decision of the umpire even if they were (marginally) wrong. The handball incident imo should have fallen into that category. The ref was well placed, saw the incident close up as it happened and made his judgement of ball to hand, intent, natural body position and distance from the shot to hitting the hand and clearly indicated no penalty.

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Maroon Sailor

How anybody thinks that was a penalty for Australia is beyond me. Try jumping without using your arms for elevation. The Danish player wasn't even looking at the ball. Not even sure if the header was on target let alone going in. Yellow card retrospectively given so clearly no intent otherwise he would have been sent off.

 

Big Brother football.

 

It has to be 100% otherwise it's simply not good enough

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I think players are failing to adjust to VAR so far. Clearly referees have been told not to be too card-happy (Argentina v Croatia) but the extra leeway on tackles that we are seeing is not being applied to penalties in the box.

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17 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

It's quite conceivable VAR could give a penalty every game.

 

Not sure that's a great road to go down. That one today against the Danish guy was dubious to say the least.

 

Had a look yesterday, and the bookies were only giving 15/8 for a penalty to be awarded anytime in most games.

That's pretty short odds, but a testament to how much VAR is having an effect on games.

 

First goal a penalty was around 11/1 for most games which looks a better bet.

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Maroon Sailor
3 minutes ago, Busby8 said:

 

Had a look yesterday, and the bookies were only giving 15/8 for a penalty to be awarded anytime in most games.

That's pretty short odds, but a testament to how much VAR is having an effect on games.

 

First goal a penalty was around 11/1 for most games which looks a better bet.

 

Not surprised the anytime odds are so short after the Den / Aus match. 

 

Imo VAR should only be used if they think the ref has missed the incident. The fact he waved play on tells me the only thing missing from his kit is strings to operate him.

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John Findlay

Can VAR reverse a decision? Say a referee awards a penalty wrongly, can the team on the receiving end have VAR used to reverse the wrong decision?

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Just now, John Findlay said:

Can VAR reverse a decision? Say a referee awards a penalty wrongly, can the team on the receiving end have VAR used to reverse the wrong decision?

I'm sure they can

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Buffalo Bill

The hand ball incident yesterday was highly contentious but otherwise I’ve been a huge fan of VAR so far. Football has changed now. We can’t go backwards. 

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Deans Jambo
9 minutes ago, Buffalo Bill said:

The hand ball incident yesterday was highly contentious but otherwise I’ve been a huge fan of VAR so far. Football has changed now. We can’t go backwards. 

Agreed. 

 

Huge pressure on refs, especially in big games and they choose to not give some pens because they fear getting it wrong. Now they have back up to hopefully get it right. 

 

Goals change games, so can only be good thing imo.

Edited by Deans Jambo
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Maroon Sailor
37 minutes ago, Buffalo Bill said:

The hand ball incident yesterday was highly contentious but otherwise I’ve been a huge fan of VAR so far. Football has changed now. We can’t go backwards. 

 

Football hasn't changed in as much as technology has

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Buffalo Bill
1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Football hasn't changed in as much as technology has

 

I meant that football (now with the use of technology) has changed the game forever. 

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Maroon Sailor
Just now, Buffalo Bill said:

 

I meant that football (now with the use of technology) has changed the game forever. 

 

It sure has

 

Goal line technology is the best thing to come out of it.

 

Only other incidents where technology would be good is identifying incidents beyond reasonable doubt. i.e The Hand of God or Thierry Henry volleyball

 

Grappling in the penalty area, ball to hand incidents are still open to debate

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Wonder when we'll see the first fast restart to prevent a VAR review?

 

I.e team defending a corner commits a foul but the ref misses it and an attacking player heads the ball out, if the keeper then quickly gets the ball and takes the bye kick then VAR couldn't be used as the game has stopped and restarted.

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Back to 2005
10 hours ago, Texia said:

The penalty in the Denmark game can be compared to the penalty from the 2012 SC semi final.

 

Correct me if i’m wrong but i’m not sure ‘deliberate’ comes into the decision to award a penalty.

Depends if it was awarded for the first or the second one in 2012. 

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