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jake

Immigration

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jake

So we have the Mediterranean ,the Mexican border with the US,and the Australian scenarios.

All very harsh on people who try to escape poverty .

 

The answer for me is a redistribution of wealth and investment in the global economy.

But that's a bit fairy tale stuff.

 

But we cannot just allow uncontrolled economic migration.

And people will continue to risk their life's to get to Europe America and Australia.

Australia in particular has taken a hard line approach to put off people attempting to migrate illegally.

 

So are you in favour of open doors policy and if not what measures should be taken to stop what is only going to be a growing issue.

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Ray Gin

We're all descended from immigrants in the UK.

 

Those beaker folk though.  :seething:

 

 

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Boris
21 minutes ago, jake said:

 

 

But we cannot just allow uncontrolled economic migration.

 

 

 

Why not?  Genuine question.  This country relies on immigrants to help sustain our economy and public services.  Without them, where will we be?

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SE16 3LN
28 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

Why not?  Genuine question.  This country relies on immigrants to help sustain our economy and public services.  Without them, where will we be?

Silly Boris and your rhetorical questions

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Boris
11 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Silly Boris and your rhetorical questions

 

 

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jake
2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

 

Why not?  Genuine question.  This country relies on immigrants to help sustain our economy and public services.  Without them, where will we be?

No doubt immigration is needed.

Unplanned open door immigration Boris is as idealistic as my distribution of wealth globally.

Infrastructure ...housing schooling healthcare .

We are not talking small numbers either.

Like it or not immigration will continue as war and resources bite hard .

 

 

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doctor jambo
2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

 

Why not?  Genuine question.  This country relies on immigrants to help sustain our economy and public services.  Without them, where will we be?

Because the problem is that the immigrants are poor.

That group use more resource in terms of health care, education and other services than they contribute - take more out the pot than they put in. So you would face  increased pressure on school and health.

increased low/ no skill labour erodes the wages of the poor.

last thing the working class here need is wage stagnation

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Cade

Not every immigrant is a pauper.

That's just a lie.

A huge chunk of people that move here are highly skilled workers who contribute lots of tax.

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Locky

One of these great debates we'll probably never solve in a way that suits everyone.

 

My mantra has always been that if people want to go to a country to genuinely work, sample new cultures or simply live a better life then so be it. Enough Brits migrate for similar reasons.

 

Also people seeking refuge are totally understandable. But the fact remains, we can't help everyone as a nation. While I'm totally open to immigration, I firmly believe it has to be controlled to an extent to prevent over crowding, over stretching public services and simply to stop british taxpayers to be left without.

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, Cade said:

Not every immigrant is a pauper.

That's just a lie.

A huge chunk of people that move here are highly skilled workers who contribute lots of tax.

Then why emigrate to begin with?

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Mark_Mywords

The official net migration for 2017 was 244,000.  That's enough to populate a small city each year.  Is that sustainable?  NHS is at breaking point, not enough housing, education suffering etc.

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Boris
1 hour ago, jake said:

No doubt immigration is needed.

Unplanned open door immigration Boris is as idealistic as my distribution of wealth globally.

Infrastructure ...housing schooling healthcare .

We are not talking small numbers either.

Like it or not immigration will continue as war and resources bite hard .

 

 

 

These things should be being planned and created accordingly anyway.  I doubt there are many instances where local services are close to collapse simply due to an influx of immigrants.

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Boris
Just now, Mark_Mywords said:

The official net migration for 2017 was 244,000.  That's enough to populate a small city each year.  Is that sustainable?  NHS is at breaking point, not enough housing, education suffering etc.

 

But not because of immigration!

 

Take that 244,000 out of the equation and the the NHS is still at breaking point, not enough housing etc etc etc

 

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a debate about immigration, however things need to be verified.  So, on one hand does immigration really help the economy?  On the other, does immigration really push public services to breaking point i.e. without immigration these services would be fine and dandy?

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Herbert

From my point of view I like immigrants. If they all went home tomorrow I would probably be 2-300 a month worse off, I do think we should have an application to get into the country but that would be more for keeping criminals out and knowing who is coming in. 

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OmiyaHearts

Everyone should be allowed to move and live where they want. I live in probably the most multicultural part of Glasgow (maybe Scotland?) and it's great.

 

Diversity enriches the culture of a country.

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Herbert
25 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Then why emigrate to begin with?

Why do Brits move to Australia, Spain, Canada etc etc jobs, money, way of living. 

 

 

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John Findlay
1 minute ago, Herbert said:

Why do Brits move to Australia, Spain, Canada etc etc jobs, money, way of living. 

 

 

I know. I don't necessary agree with it. If people are as talented as stated then there is a large part of me that believes they should make the country that nurtured their talents to begin with better than it currently is.

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Pans Jambo
32 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Then why emigrate to begin with?

Why would a surgeon or a qualified electrical engineer or even a school teacher come from Poland to say Edinburgh???

 

Because he/she wants a cooncil hoose perhaps?

 

:jj_facepalm:

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Boris
5 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I know. I don't necessary agree with it. If people are as talented as stated then there is a large part of me that believes they should make the country that nurtured their talents to begin with better than it currently is.

 

Because their country is run by a psycho, and the rest of it is having the shit bombed out of it by two out of the three world superpowers?  Or their proxies.

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shaun.lawson
17 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I know. I don't necessary agree with it. If people are as talented as stated then there is a large part of me that believes they should make the country that nurtured their talents to begin with better than it currently is.

 

Interesting view. Trouble is, if all the migrants to the UK had this attitude (not saying it's wrong at all btw; it's interesting), there'd be no-one to pay for your pension. ;) 

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John Findlay
5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Interesting view. Trouble is, if all the migrants to the UK had this attitude (not saying it's wrong at all btw; it's interesting), there'd be no-one to pay for your pension. ;) 

Lol

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John Findlay
18 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Because their country is run by a psycho, and the rest of it is having the shit bombed out of it by two out of the three world superpowers?  Or their proxies.

That's communism for you:laugh:.

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shaun.lawson

Interesting OP and certainly well-intentioned. But it contains assumptions: which in several cases, are extremely flawed.

 

Massive numbers of migrants from Central America to the US, or North Africa and the Middle East to Europe, aren't migrating for economic reasons or "to escape poverty". They're doing so to escape war, terrorism, death squads and drug cartels. Central America is the most dangerous region in the world - by a long, long way. Yet while Americans sit and panic about MT-13 and other gangs, they apparently expect ordinary people from Honduras, El Salvador or Mexico to have their lives overwhelmed by these gangs.

 

Similarly, Libya wasn't half the mess it now is until we showed up, bombed the place to bits, then ****ed off: leaving the place to be overrun by terrorists. Like Syria has been too. Yet while Brits sit and panic about terrorists, we apparently expect ordinary people from these areas to have their lives overwhelmed by them. It's bizarre. 

 

I don't think any of us can know what it's truly like to live in a wartorn or failed state, to be persecuted and tortured by government death squads or drug cartels, unless we've actually experienced it. Our desire instead to take the most cynical view imaginable - "they want money for nothing! They want our generous benefits!" - actually says far more about us than it does about them. Not least because our benefit system is incredibly ungenerous.

 

The journeys which many of these migrants, refugees and asylum seekers make is fraught with peril. They are extorted by traffickers, women are raped en masse, and many don't make it at all. It is beyond my comprehension how people assume this is some easy choice; it's one of the hardest choices any family can ever make, and it's almost always made because they have no other option.

 

As for immigration and the UK: the problem with the British economy is chronic lack of productivity. That's not because British workers are 'lazy'; productivity doesn't work like that. It requires constant investment in the most efficient technologies; a view of the long term. But that's not what Britain does. We use sticking plaster solutions instead: meaning we recruit 10 low skilled, low paid workers instead of investing in the plants and machinery which could do all that work instead.

 

We've long had the most flexible markets in Europe. We give workers less protection than anyone else in Europe too. All of that is because our entire approach is short-term. That's what Thatcherism essentially amounts to - and it means that if we don't have immigration, lots of it, we're goosed.

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

It's a hugely complex issue and I have no idea what the answer is. I do know what we can stop doing right away though. We can stop dehumanizing language like "infest" and "swarm" - looking at you Trump and Cameron. And we can stop this unproven slur that migrants are a drain on resources, benefits or the economy. Tons of research available showing it's just not true. 

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Maple Leaf
1 hour ago, Mark_Mywords said:

The official net migration for 2017 was 244,000.  That's enough to populate a small city each year.  Is that sustainable?  NHS is at breaking point, not enough housing, education suffering etc.

 

Immigration to Canada is higher than that.  We accept about 300,000 per year with about half the population of the UK.  If there are problems with the NHS etc, I doubt if it's because of excessive immigration.

 

If a country's birth rate is too low, which applies to many western countries, then the only way to sustain the economy is through immigration.  It's also the only way to maintain services for an ageing population.

 

So immigration to the UK is a good thing.  The question then becomes, what type of immigrant is needed?  In Canada, we have a merit-based system, with consideration also given to family re-unification.  It seems to work.

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

Education, housing, and the NHS are strained by a huge deal more than use from immigrants. Not acknowledging that is a Conservative Party strategist's wet dream. 

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Lord BJ
14 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Education, housing, and the NHS are strained by a huge deal more than use from immigrants.  

 

That may well be the case but it doesn’t really change the issue.

 

Increasing demand on strained services really isn’t going to solve anything, irrespective of how it occurred. It’s a genuine concern for people and one often people try ignore.

 

It’s like everything there is a balance to be struck. For a variety of reasons immigration is advantageous, however, it needs to be controlled and in the right areas. 

 

Uncontrolled mass migration solves nothing imho and just causes issues down the line demand on strained services, wages stagnation, housing issues etc etc. It’s also worth remembering it tends to be those who are at the lower end of socio economic groups are impacted most. 

 

Problem is people tend to argue extremes on the internet as this thread proved within about 6 posts! Why is becomes so difficult to have a constructive debate around immigration around a complex and, for many, a immotive issue. 

 

I personally prefer a merit based system, which tries to match supply and demand so to speak. It’s more managed and benefit both parties so to speak. 

 

I also think investment in these areas is a must. That begins to address route causes in terms of economic deficit. The issue by and large the areas where economic migrates come from are often ****ed environments which are difficult to invest in.

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davemclaren

The irony is that the reason the USA is so big and powerful is mainly due to virtually unhindered immigration in the previous two centuries 

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jonnothejambo

No easy answer but many  immigrants here contribute far more to our economy than fat lazy twats who will not get off their poxy erses and work instead of living off benefits, many if whom have a decent house, sky tv, foreign holidays and nice cars. 

 

Of course there are those who need benefits for perfectly valid reasons. No issue at all there.

 

It's the spongers who do my head in.

 

Kind of off topic, but that's the norm for me.

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graygo
47 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

No easy answer but many  immigrants here contribute far more to our economy than fat lazy twats who will not get off their poxy erses and work instead of living off benefits, many if whom have a decent house, sky tv, foreign holidays and nice cars. 

 

Of course there are those who need benefits for perfectly valid reasons. No issue at all there.

 

It's the spongers who do my head in.

 

Kind of off topic, but that's the norm for me.

 

Hey!

 

I'm not fat.

 

Ach I suppose I am.

 

Carry on.

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Pans Jambo
Posted (edited)

They are building thousands of housing in East Lothian. Probably well over 12,000. 

East Lothian had around 100,000 inhabitants about 10 years or so ago. So 12,000 houses is a big deal. 

My family struggle to get a doctors appointment, the roads are as busy as feck and almost every school has been extended & they have built a few new ones too. You wait a week for a policeman. 

 

 

Is it Easter Europeans, Africans and middle Eastern folk who are buying all these houses???

 

Naw!

Edited by Pans Jambo

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jonnothejambo
9 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Hey!

 

I'm not fat.

 

Ach I suppose I am.

 

Carry on.

 

:lol:

 

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shaun.lawson

The solution is and has always been long term investment in infrastructure, housing, healthcare, education and technology. The British people refuse to vote for that long term investment, then blame immigrants when the consequences of their votes come to pass. 

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King prawn
1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

The irony is that the reason the USA is so big and powerful is mainly due to virtually unhindered immigration in the previous two centuries 

Including the wife of the President.

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Normthebarman

Others have pretty much already said what my thoughts are. Ideally, people should be free to move between countries whenever and however they please. In reality, it's not that simple. What the solution is, I have no idea. That's for people waaaaaay above my pay grade. 

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Pans Jambo
5 minutes ago, King prawn said:

Including the wife of the President.

Yeah, dont do as I do, do as I say etc.

 

 

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John Findlay
41 minutes ago, King prawn said:

Including the wife of the President.

Plus his maw.

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Maple Leaf
49 minutes ago, King prawn said:

Including the wife of the President.

 

7 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Plus his maw.

 

The truth of the matter is that Trump doesn't have a problem with immigration, per se.  He only has a problem if the immigrants are brown or Muslim.

 

And that caters to his racist supporters and Evangelical Christian supporters.

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Space Mackerel

I really like human beings no matter where they come from. 

 

Im not too fond fond of these far right arseholes though. They seem a bit stupid. 

 

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Swanny17

How come Brits moving abroad for a better life are called Ex-Pats, but people moving to the UK for the same are called Immigrants? 

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Lord BJ
24 minutes ago, Swanny17 said:

How come Brits moving abroad for a better life are called Ex-Pats, but people moving to the UK for the same are called Immigrants? 

 

Because one is about people incoming to your native country and one is about people leaving your native country; dependant on your perspective. 

 

They are different phrases cause they have different meanings.

 

It really is little more than a semantics argument.

 

 

 

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Cade
34 minutes ago, Swanny17 said:

How come Brits moving abroad for a better life are called Ex-Pats, but people moving to the UK for the same are called Immigrants? 

Because immigrants are "the other" and ex-pats is "us"

 

 

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scott herbertson

The problem to me is there is no long term planning with regard to what is sustainable in each country or, as far as Britain is concerned any real desire to get to grips with the concept of citizenship.

 

I have a magic solution to this massive problem, but I need to do some more thinking and write it up for a politician I know.


Once i do, we can move on to the NHS....

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Judge Fudge

It's always happened Jamaicans came over to the south of England in the 50s and 60s and were the backbone to the transport system in London. Our own coal mining industry and roads were supplemented by Irish immigrants. We are a nation of immigrants going way back in our history. Live and let live. There will always be good and bad anywhere. Embrace the good and **** the bad. Regardless of where their born. 

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Space Mackerel
1 hour ago, Swanny17 said:

How come Brits moving abroad for a better life are called Ex-Pats, but people moving to the UK for the same are called Immigrants? 

 

Something that’s rarely mentioned by the far right dafties.

 

Imagine putting all that stress on the Spanish health system because they want a permatan, cheap fags and a massive fat alcoholic belly in their later years. They don’t even attempt to speak the local lingo. 

 

Suppose they spend their index linked pension there so adding to the economy, a wee bit like the workers that move here and set up shop. 

 

Never mind, at least they’re not brown. 

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Sir Vladimir of Romanov

Didn't take long before the usual lazy blame thatcher shite started. Lazy posting. 

 

 

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SpruceBringsteen
Posted (edited)

Seen the phrase "uncontrolled immigration" a few times now - can someone let me know if I missed that law being passed, because as I understood it to be it'd be an even bigger ball ache for me to move home than it was for me to leave, and my missus isn't even black or from Poland.

Edited by SpruceBringsteen

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Ulysses
18 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

Seen the phrase "uncontrolled immigration" a few times now - can someone let me know if I missed that law being passed, because as I understood it to be it'd be an even bigger ball ache for me to move home than it was for me to leave, and my missus isn't even black or from Poland.

 

 

If you've never suffered from uncontrolled immigration you have no idea how awful it can be.  You're sitting there, with no symptoms at all, then suddenly you get a spasm of uncontrolled immigration and **BOOM**, you're living abroad.

 

Very uncomfortable condition, so it is.  Happened to me a few weeks ago - when I was sitting on the bog taking a Donald Trump.  Big spasm of uncontrolled immigration, and ***KABLAMMO** there I was on a street in Berlin with my trousers round my ankles with no warning whatsoever.  :eek:

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SpruceBringsteen
12 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

If you've never suffered from uncontrolled immigration you have no idea how awful it can be.  You're sitting there, with no symptoms at all, then suddenly you get a spasm of uncontrolled immigration and **BOOM**, you're living abroad.

 

Very uncomfortable condition, so it is.  Happened to me a few weeks ago - when I was sitting on the bog taking a Donald Trump.  Big spasm of uncontrolled immigration, and ***KABLAMMO** there I was on a street in Berlin with my trousers round my ankles with no warning whatsoever.  :eek:

 

A blow. I read this thread and thought I could now just rock up and with a cheeky wink get the pair of us in with no questions asked.

 

That said, if a quick fart on the pan takes you to Berlin I'll be getting wired into the prunes. B)

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