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***World Cup 2018 - Argentina v Croatia***


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AuldReekie444
12 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

I think so too but it wouldn't be the most outrageous thing to have ever happened.

i think you are underestimating how far Argentina are wrecked at this moment. I cant see them fixing it in this tournament. 

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Big Slim Stylee
16 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Think it was me that said "carries them", and it probably wasn't the best word to use, but I was struggling to think of another word/phrase to use instead.

 

I actually don’t think you’re wrong at all PJ. For better or for worse, he’s a totem. He was as important off the field as on it in the Euro final.

 

They play with him or for him. Works for them. Worked for Argentina with Maradona. Doesn’t remotely work for them with Messi. He’s the finest footballer to come out of the country but he’s just not totemic enough for them to get round!

Edited by Big Slim Stylee
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1 hour ago, kirkierobroy said:

 

Someone else pointed out that Croatia, who had just stuffed Argentina 3-0, had the same population as us.

 

I merely pointed out that they're actually considerably smaller in population, as are some other teams in the tournament. And I pointed out that many used to excuse Scotland's rubbishness because we're wee. But it's actually no excuse.

 

That's all I said. Try to keep your imagination in check.

 

Yip as are Uruguay, think the answer  probably to do with them having better players because they teach them better, hopeful signs we are reversing this, hope previous poster doesn't think Nationalism or Unionism is the answer/problem to having superior  players - verging on Fascism

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1 hour ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Is it not a sort of problem for any of these teams who have what are generally classed as a "special" sort of player in their ranks. I suppose the three teams which come to mind in Russia are Portugal (Ronaldo), Argentina (Messi) and Brazil (Neymar). If those individual players don't function well in these team the overall team tend to suffer as a result. From the games that have been televised so far the only one of the three who have hit it off has been Ronaldo, but can he continue to carry the rest of the team. Or is it reasonable to assume that a more balanced overall team, in which everyone just gets on with doing their individual jobs will come out on top.

I would say 90%+ of the time it has to be the balanced team , Russia have looked very balanced , Croatia are midfield heavy but organised and i thought Argentina were useless against them , longer the game weny on more Messi looked ready to leather the rest of them. Ronaldo is the same at times his attitude seems different now tho after Euro 16. Maybe with that freedom he can carry them far , Patricio is a cracking keeper (well now hes a Wolves player he is) and they have that solidity at the back without anyone great. Brazil i think have more than just Neymar but they all need to click. France and England might do well unfortunately if we go by the balanced unspecial teams. I think the managers have to be right to keep the great player happy and the rest of the side. Cant be easy

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1 hour ago, Morgan said:

Has to be Pele.

 

Although!  He never played outside of the Brazilian league with Santos. And, before I get picked up here, I know he went to New York Cosmos at the tail end of his career.

 

To be honest, it’s a difficult one for me because, if you compare goals scored only, it’s Pele. If you compare where each played, it’s  Diego.

 

:turmoil: 

 

I think Messi v Ronaldo at the moment is easier to pick a side because of the lack of ability in Argentina and Portugals teams. Right now Ronaldo is better on the world stage , he makes it happen no matter how poor his teammates are. However Pele v Maradona is impossible , different era’s , quality around them , styles of play in that era etc.

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AuldReekie444
20 minutes ago, geomac said:

 

Yip as are Uruguay, think the answer  probably to do with them having better players because they teach them better, hopeful signs we are reversing this, hope previous poster doesn't think Nationalism or Unionism is the answer/problem to having superior  players - verging on Fascism

i already said its because we are stuck with glasgow- and celtic and rangers mate. 

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8 minutes ago, AuldReekie444 said:

i already said its because we are stuck with glasgow- and celtic and rangers mate. 

 

Are you saying Old Squirm inhibit talented players whereas top clubs in Uruguay promote them? mate

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AuldReekie444
7 minutes ago, geomac said:

 

Are you saying Old Squirm inhibit talented players whereas top clubs in Uruguay promote them? mate

i have no idea why you asked me this

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shaun.lawson
6 hours ago, Boab said:

I think we could see a new name on the World Cup this year.

 

There, i've said it !

 

I'm still going with a Brazil-Spain final - but with no confidence at all. This tournament is wide, wide open... and yes, maybe we will have a shock winner?

 

6 hours ago, AuldReekie444 said:

what is the story with the Argentina coach? how is he in that job

 

This 'fraud', as he's bizarrely been called on this thread, won the Copa America with Chile (their first major title ever), then retained it in the US the following year. Then he took Sevilla to the Champions League. Argentina's problems go quite colossally deeper than who their coach is: he's their fourth manager in 4 years, and those in charge (sic) have no plan whatsoever. Granted, he panicked in his selection for this game - but that's only because they've been such a mess for so long. 

 

As well as having the most shambolic, corrupt beyond imagination association in the world game, Argentina, once a conveyor belt of never-ending world class talent, have stopped producing even half-decent goalkeepers, defenders or midfielders. Hence their Dad's Army XI here.

 

They have nothing coming through at all, and are essentially where England were in 2010 or Germany in 1998 - but without the facilities/resources/basic sense of the common good needed to turn things round. The climb back to the top is as steep as any they've faced in their history. They're looking at a decade in the wilderness as things stand.

 

4 hours ago, Big Slim Stylee said:

I’m not a regular punter but I’ve bet on Argentina as winners every WC since 1990.  It’s like a ritual. I’m such a fecking loser ?

 

Ha! Their seemingly impossible progress in 1990 ingrained (almost scarred) in me a fear of / respect for them that's lasted to this day. What a bunch of streetfighters!

 

6 hours ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Messi tarnishing his legacy with yet another poor World Cup showing. He's been terrible. 

 

In 1986, Maradona had Valdano and Burruchaga - meaning that when he played that perfect through ball to the latter near the end, Burruchaga buried it. Had he missed, who knows what might've happened?

 

In 2014, Messi had... Higuain, who missed one absolute sitter, one glorious chance. How is that any reflection on him?! In fact, if Higuain could hit a barn door, Messi would've won both the World Cup and Copa America.

 

3 hours ago, sadj said:

Ronaldo is the same at times his attitude seems different now tho after Euro 16.

 

Yes, absolutely! He's really grown in how he leads them now. 4 years ago, he was all me me me, hogging the ball, blaming his teammates, and generally acting like a twat. Now, he's loving it - and his side responds to him. 

 

I've always favoured Messi in the great debate. But I'll say this. If Portugal win the World Cup, Ronaldo won't just be greater than Messi. He'll be the Greatest Of All Time.

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5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I'm still going with a Brazil-Spain final - but with no confidence at all. This tournament is wide, wide open... and yes, maybe we will have a shock winner?

 

 

This 'fraud', as he's bizarrely been called on this thread, won the Copa America with Chile (their first major title ever), then retained it in the US the following year. Then he took Sevilla to the Champions League. Argentina's problems go quite colossally deeper than who their coach is: he's their fourth manager in 4 years, and those in charge (sic) have no plan whatsoever. Granted, he panicked in his selection for this game - but that's only because they've been such a mess for so long. 

 

As well as having the most shambolic, corrupt beyond imagination association in the world game, Argentina, once a conveyor belt of never-ending world class talent, have stopped producing even half-decent goalkeepers, defenders or midfielders. Hence their Dad's Army XI here.

 

They have nothing coming through at all, and are essentially where England were in 2010 or Germany in 1998 - but without the facilities/resources/basic sense of the common good needed to turn things round. The climb back to the top is as steep as any they've faced in their history. They're looking at a decade in the wilderness as things stand.

 

 

Ha! Their seemingly impossible progress in 1990 ingrained (almost scarred) in me a fear of / respect for them that's lasted to this day. What a bunch of streetfighters!

 

 

In 1986, Maradona had Valdano and Burruchaga - meaning that when he played that perfect through ball to the latter near the end, Burruchaga buried it. Had he missed, who knows what might've happened?

 

In 2014, Messi had... Higuain, who missed one absolute sitter, one glorious chance. How is that any reflection on him?! In fact, if Higuain could hit a barn door, Messi would've won both the World Cup and Copa America.

 

 

Yes, absolutely! He's really grown in how he leads them now. 4 years ago, he was all me me me, hogging the ball, blaming his teammates, and generally acting like a twat. Now, he's loving it - and his side responds to him. 

 

I've always favoured Messi in the great debate. But I'll say this. If Portugal win the World Cup, Ronaldo won't just be greater than Messi. He'll be the Greatest Of All Time.

 

If Higuain could hit a barn door ?

 

You're off on one again, Shaun !

 

Come back when Harry Kane has scored 231 senior goals.

 

That's just club goals. 31 in 70 Internationals is no bad return either.

Edited by Boab
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That third goal I think will have knocked Argentina out. I see them finishing 3rd behind Iceland on goal difference

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Let's be honest none of the two have been anything other than average in international finals.

Sure they have great in the qualifying rounds but at the final stage both have not come close to their top form.

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Maroon Sailor
14 minutes ago, benny said:

Let's be honest none of the two have been anything other than average in international finals.

Sure they have great in the qualifying rounds but at the final stage both have not come close to their top form.

 

If it was a straight choice between having Ronaldo or Messi in your side then Ronaldo all day long for me.

 

He has a better all round game

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1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

If it was a straight choice between having Ronaldo or Messi in your side then Ronaldo all day long for me.

 

He has a better all round game

Fair enough

Always thought Messi was above Ronaldo but nowhere near Maradona and Pele 

In fact always thought Cristiano was not the best Ronaldo.

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21 minutes ago, benny said:

Fair enough

Always thought Messi was above Ronaldo but nowhere near Maradona and Pele 

In fact always thought Cristiano was not the best Ronaldo.

Funny you say this, theres something about the original (now fat)Ronaldo that for me puts him ahead of the others.

To further complicate things, give me Ronaldinho every day of the week for the most outrageous skill to see being used in even the most high profile of games.

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The Internet

Saying Brazilian Ronaldo is better than Cristiano can only be down to nostalgia because Cristiano is better than him in almost every possible way. 

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2 minutes ago, VALDOS said:

Funny you say this, theres something about the original (now fat)Ronaldo that for me puts him ahead of the others.

To further complicate things, give me Ronaldinho every day of the week for the most outrageous skill to see being used in even the most high profile of games.

Funnily enough I've always thought that Ronaldo Fenomeno and Ronaldinho are the best players that I've ever seen however both were only at that level for a brief point in their careers 

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6 minutes ago, BigAlim said:

Funnily enough I've always thought that Ronaldo Fenomeno and Ronaldinho are the best players that I've ever seen however both were only at that level for a brief point in their careers 

The real Ronaldo was at his A game from PSV to Madrid.

Well over 10 years.

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John Findlay

Pele three World Cup winners medals.

Maradona one.

Lionel Messi none and looks like remaining that way.

Christiano Ronaldo. None, though that may change to one if and to me it's a big if Portugal win this world cup.

Pele won in 58, aged 17 62, aged 21 and 70, aged 29. No one has come close to that ever since. He got hacked out of the 66 world cup ironically by the Portuguese. The 58 and 62 world cups were not televised anywhere near 66 or 70 or any other ever since. So footage of Pele is not as widely available as there is of Maradona. We get most of our opinion of these players from what we see on our television screens. I understand those that say Maradona was the best ever. However for this 55 years old it always has and always will be Pele.

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Comparing Pele and Messi is like comparing Stravinsky and Radiohead.  It is as much a comparison of different times as it is music.

 

The game has changed way too much even during my 34 years to make any comparisons worthwhile for me.  If you allowed teams to passback to the GK again, would teams like Man City and Barca ever lose the ball?  If they were forced to play with the modern offside rule, would the famous boring Arsenal team be as sound defensively?  Would Stanley Matthews still be the best player on the park at 38 years old if all the other players were fit as physically possible rather than puffing on halftime fags?

 

Pele's club record involves playing against loads of amateur teams and winning 8-0.  Messi's club record doesn't involve needing to avoid career-ending challenges every 15-20 seconds.  When Pele got marked, he got physically marked (bruised) by relatively poor players who'd probably never heard of the word tactics.  When Messi gets marked, it is almost the complete opposite.

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Argentina - they have an incredible strike force but when you have absolute mince behind them then you are going to struggle.  

 

Can't see it being fixed anytime soon either - supposedly almost every kid growing up over there wants to be the next Messi so there is a severe lack of great quality defensive minded players coming through the youth system due to so many kids putting all the efforts into being the next icon.

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Yeah it's mad how there's such a massive gap in quality between Argentina's attack and every other position. They have absolutely nothing in midfield, whereas Croatia have possibly the best midfield in the world and it showed last night. 

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I was just glad the third goal was so controlled that I was able to cash out a £52 bet at £43.30 on Croatia 2:0...

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Just goes to prove that Irving Welsh makes a poor manager.

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Салатные палочки
2 hours ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

Saying Brazilian Ronaldo is better than Cristiano can only be down to nostalgia because Cristiano is better than him in almost every possible way. 

 

Having been lucky enough to watch both of their careers over the years, I agree 100%.  The Brazilian was immense, but the Portugese is quite honestly the best I have ever seen.  

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sairyinthat
15 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Goes to show how good Diego was, dragged Argentina and Napoli to trophies. 

Good player but far from the worlds best.

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sairyinthat
2 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Harsh, he's 57 yr old ffs. :smile:

true but even at his peak a long way off best.

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Cruyff Turn
Just now, sairyinthat said:

true but even at his peak a long way off best.

:tlj: who was the best in that period, in your opinion? 

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sairyinthat

Would need the list for that time,but will say Diego could only dream of being anywhere near his countryman Alfredo.

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Cruyff Turn
1 minute ago, sairyinthat said:

Would need the list for that time,but will say Diego could only dream of being anywhere near his countryman Alfredo.

Can't argue with that, Platini, Zico, Schuster, Socrates Francescoli, Rummenigge, Gullit, van Basten, Boniek, Butragueno, Matthaus.... Quite a few to be fair :laugh:

 

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sairyinthat
8 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Can't argue with that, Platini, Zico, Schuster, Socrates Francescoli, Rummenigge, Gullit, van Basten, Boniek, Butragueno, Matthaus.... Quite a few to be fair :laugh:

 

Yeah and can you imagine someone like Gento running up the wing for our team.

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Cruyff Turn
9 minutes ago, sairyinthat said:

Yeah and can you imagine someone like Gento running up the wing for our team.

You must be of that era, 50/60's was almost a different game tbf, free flowing, not bogged down with tactics.

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sairyinthat
18 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

You must be of that era, 50/60's was almost a different game tbf, free flowing, not bogged down with tactics.

 

18 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

You must be of that era, 50/60's was almost a different game tbf, free flowing, not bogged down with tactics.

right on the button and some yit hot teams about.

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On 6/21/2018 at 23:15, graygo said:

Iceland draw tomorrow and there may be a huge portion of humble pie getting passed around in a few days time.

 

On 6/21/2018 at 23:24, AuldReekie444 said:

nah, Argentina are wrecked. 

 

On 6/21/2018 at 23:26, graygo said:

 

I think so too but it wouldn't be the most outrageous thing to have ever happened.

 

On 6/21/2018 at 23:40, AuldReekie444 said:

i think you are underestimating how far Argentina are wrecked at this moment. I cant see them fixing it in this tournament. 

 

 

Not having a dig at you specifically AuldReekie444, well not just you.

 

:verysmug: 

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AuldReekie444
13 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

 

 

 

 

Not having a dig at you specifically AuldReekie444, well not just you.

 

:verysmug: 

Its fair enough. I was well wrong.

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