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JamboGraham
7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Definitely but nobody ever draws all their away games or win all their home games. Realistically we are at best likely to win 12-14 home games and 8-10 away with maybe half the others draws. For instance Hibs have only lost 5 games this season but the Sheep&Huns have won more. I think it was the idea behind three points for a win to encourage teams to try and win games, our manager didn’t get that memo.

 

Only one Hearts manager in quarter of a century has got that memo then...your realistic best figures would return 69 to 79 points. 2005/06 is the only top flight season we have won 69 or more points since 3 points for a win was introduced.

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skinnybob72

What the stats show is that - with the odd exception - it hasn't really mattered who our manager is, our away form has generally been mediocre / poor for a long time. 

 

What would be be interesting is to see how our away form ranks against other teams during that period. I would guess that our playing budget has been 3rd / 4th highest for most of that time - so how does our form compare to that. 

 

I've thought for a long time now that we, as a club, punch below our weight in terms of success (or perceived success) for where we sit in terms of budget. 

 

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davemclaren
13 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

What the stats show is that - with the odd exception - it hasn't really mattered who our manager is, our away form has generally been mediocre / poor for a long time. 

 

What would be be interesting is to see how our away form ranks against other teams during that period. I would guess that our playing budget has been 3rd / 4th highest for most of that time - so how does our form compare to that. 

 

I've thought for a long time now that we, as a club, punch below our weight in terms of success (or perceived success) for where we sit in terms of budget. 

 

It would be interesting but the graphic, posted on another thread, showed us as third best overall in terms of league placings which is what we would expect. Looking at how skewed Scottish football is in terms of the wealth that clubs have I don't think we do punch below our weight overall. 

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19 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Ignoring the improvement most of the poor draws through to early December. The last draw as a result of a poor penalty. 

Unbeaten at Tynecastle 4 goals conceded. Shite right enough 

"Unbeaten", "4 goals conceded", etc all perfectly consistent with ant-football; I never said we were poor: it's just a feature of how we have managed to avoid defeat at home which doesn't appear to work terribly well elsewhere.  

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19 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

This season yes, but overall this will not be much different from almost half of our league campaigns over the past 15 or so seasons...

 

So a decade and a half of anti-football and helped by crap surfaces? The only consistent is the pitch dimensions.

Agreed re pitch dimensions; not sure about pitch - don't remember it ever being that great tbh.  Really interesting OP though, and the only point I was trying to explore was simply whether one reason for our (relative) success at home might not also be the same reason for (relative) failure elsewhere.  Thanks for replying. 

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Enzo Chiefo
20 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Leveins done above average over the piece then. With far less cash than those who did better 

With better attacking options than most of his predecessors.  We should be offering a lot more with players like Lafferty and Naismith in his team. Other managers tried to win away from home and, indeed , 3 of them managed to win in Glasgow and lift silverware..CL thinks away games are something to fear. He needs to learn that no-one hands out major silverware at Tynecastle. 

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Enzo Chiefo
9 hours ago, Locky said:

Find it rather interesting though that Levein’s previous seasons in charge are up there with our best records away.

 

People would do well to remember that Levein inherited a squad built by others 2 days before the transfer window closed. In January, he did the right thing but not having a major renovation of the squad, instead opting to just add a couple of key positions.

 

Next season is when the real judgement can be made.

He has had 2 transfer windows and ALL of our first team are his picks. Cathro handed him Lafferty and Berra on a plate, to get him off to a good start along with John Souttar returning from injury. He signed the remainder of the starting X1 , mixed with some academy youngsters. No more excuses. 

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Bazzas right boot
11 hours ago, EH11 said:

 

The club need to make a statement concerning this. The fans deserve to hear Levein taking person responsibility. For me, if he doesn't say sorry, and the club doesn't make a statement, then everyone should walk. 

That would make me feel a tad better. 

 

 

The worst post on the internet?

Ever?

 

or the funniest....

Edited by WeeChuck'sHeed
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portobellojambo1
21 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

To compare by individual manager performance would be interesting but a very different set of figures. The reason I applied the manager name was just to try and fix the time period in the mind.

 

I just found it interesting in that it made me think back to that period again, and how quickly we were racking up the points early doors in that season. Spent a few minutes last night after reading your post just playing my recollection of each of those games through in my mind. Oh, it would be good to be going along to Tynecastle watching football like that again just now, no fear of anyone, no thoughts of defending, all about looking to win football matches.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
3 hours ago, Levein's N said:

"Unbeaten", "4 goals conceded", etc all perfectly consistent with ant-football; I never said we were poor: it's just a feature of how we have managed to avoid defeat at home which doesn't appear to work terribly well elsewhere.  

What's your expectations at home. Because you are supporting the wrong team if you are not satisfied from about Dec 12th forward 

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1 hour ago, Sir Gio said:

What's your expectations at home. Because you are supporting the wrong team if you are not satisfied from about Dec 12th forward 

 

What's your expectations away?  Because you're on the wrong thread if you think this is about home form!

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5 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

He has had 2 transfer windows and ALL of our first team are his picks. Cathro handed him Lafferty and Berra on a plate, to get him off to a good start along with John Souttar returning from injury. He signed the remainder of the starting X1 , mixed with some academy youngsters. No more excuses. 

And you know, 100%, that Levein is solely responsible for signing every player at the club, aye?

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20 hours ago, James1874f said:

Away fans numbers will drop significantly next season if this continues. You just know if we lose the first goal there’s not a hope we are going to win the game.

Already have! Following Hearts away used to be brilliant. Always a large and noisy traveling support, witnessed some tremendous memorable occasions in years gone by. Dundee United in 86, 4-1 I think  at Aberdeen 98 maybe, with Thomas Flogel and Neil McCann providing huge entertainment for the passionate and noisy support. John Millar's strike at Parkhead to send 6000 jambos into ecstacy. There was even some seasons where I remember the purchase of an "away season ticket" to ensure my place. Dunfermline packed away terrace , 2000 fans at a cup replay night match at Ayr  74 or there abouts 1/0 aet, fast forward to today-  didn't even travel the distance of the Tay Bridge 3 weeks ago- why would ya?

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Pasquale for King
14 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

Only one Hearts manager in quarter of a century has got that memo then...your realistic best figures would return 69 to 79 points. 2005/06 is the only top flight season we have won 69 or more points since 3 points for a win was introduced.

No matter what has gone before Is that not what we should be aiming for?

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Enzo Chiefo
6 hours ago, Locky said:

And you know, 100%, that Levein is solely responsible for signing every player at the club, aye?

I'm referring to the ones signed since August Locky. Milinkovic, Amankwaa, Adao, Naismith, McLaughlin, etc. 

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Given how rotten we are away from home our numbers are still very impressive.

 

i note that CL said in his interview yesterday that entertaining away from home is high on his to do list . Well, at least he acknowledges it.

 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
10 hours ago, Levein's N said:

 

What's your expectations away?  Because you're on the wrong thread if you think this is about home form!

Same as the managers, in every statement I have heard coming out of his mouth, he wants it to improve, read what he has said all week.

 

The home form has been used as a comparison, and quite rightly questioned why it should be so energetic and more than decent at home (which mysteriously you disagree with) but yet often shambolic at worst and lethargic at best on our travels.

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3 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Same as the managers, in every statement I have heard coming out of his mouth, he wants it to improve, read what he has said all week.

 

The home form has been used as a comparison, and quite rightly questioned why it should be so energetic and more than decent at home (which mysteriously you disagree with) but yet often shambolic at worst and lethargic at best on our travels.

I have nowhere criticised our lack of energy.  I also drew attention to our "success at home" - though I said it was only "relative" because of the preponderance of draws and low number of goals scored.  But "energetic" is perfectly consistent with, and possibly also a pre-condition of, anti-football.  My point was only that the relative lack of width of the Tynecastle pitch may be one reason why we get both good results at home (albeit including too many draws and too few goals scored), as well as poor results away, where our energy is less effective at closing down space and stopping the opposition from playing football.  Think Stoke and the Brittania Stadium, the smallest ground in the Premiership; think Souness's narrowing of Ibrox to cramp the Dynamo Kiev wingers in 1987-88; think Mark Hughes's attempts to frustrate Brasil in 2000 (ultimately unsuccessful, though who knows? -perhaps the scoreline would have been worse had he not narrowed the pitch).  Perhaps we should abandon anti-football and move to Murrayfield!  Admittedly, we would have to forego the long throw-in as an attacking weapon of choice; but we would have more scope for wing-play and entertaining football, while simultaneously building a team that might compete more effectively away from home.  

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Ron Burgundy

The stats don't tell the whole story though.

A JJ team might well go away from home and come back with the same points as a Levein team but at least they would try and win the match.

I know which I find more acceptable.

 

Not one poster expects us to go away and win every game brushing aside the opposition with ease.

 Levein has without doubt a mindset of not losing the point they start every game with when we are away from home.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
11 minutes ago, Levein's N said:

I have nowhere criticised our lack of energy.  I also drew attention to our "success at home" - though I said it was only "relative" because of the preponderance of draws and low number of goals scored.  But "energetic" is perfectly consistent with, and possibly also a pre-condition of, anti-football.  My point was only that the relative lack of width of the Tynecastle pitch may be one reason why we get both good results at home (albeit including too many draws and too few goals scored), as well as poor results away, where our energy is less effective at closing down space and stopping the opposition from playing football.  Think Stoke and the Brittania Stadium, the smallest ground in the Premiership; think Souness's narrowing of Ibrox to cramp the Dynamo Kiev wingers in 1987-88; think Mark Hughes's attempts to frustrate Brasil in 2000 (ultimately unsuccessful, though who knows? -perhaps the scoreline would have been worse had he not narrowed the pitch).  Perhaps we should abandon anti-football and move to Murrayfield!  Admittedly, we would have to forego the long throw-in as an attacking weapon of choice; but we would have more scope for wing-play and entertaining football, while simultaneously building a team that might compete more effectively away from home.  

Peps Barcelona were the most energetic team I ever saw. Alex Ferguson demanded energy so complete and utter rubbish to suggest energy is anti football. 

Anti football is a ridiculous statement in any case. The tactics of teams will or should be applied to a set of variables either perceived as for or against. 

Where I do agree with you. In certain circumstances this season away, the variables would be in our favour and we have been far too careful.

Pedestrian and cautious are fair words but the industrial and anti football stuff is nonsense. 

Our problem last week was the slow speed coupled with a very good high press from Rangers. They were energetic. They weren't much better than average but their energy compared to our over patient approach won them the game comfortably. 

Could be the same again tonight. 

But I have seen pretty much only good things and habits at home. Considering the youth of the team and frequently playing with no left back before even considering the constant injuries no mean feat.

I prefer to take a balanced view. Home great away shite and it needs to change. 2 games left to experiment. Free hits. It was 3 and I was disappointed we didn't give it a better go on Sunday 

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6 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Peps Barcelona were the most energetic team I ever saw. Alex Ferguson demanded energy so complete and utter rubbish to suggest energy is anti football. 

Anti football is a ridiculous statement in any case. The tactics of teams will or should be applied to a set of variables either perceived as for or against. 

Where I do agree with you. In certain circumstances this season away, the variables would be in our favour and we have been far too careful.

Pedestrian and cautious are fair words but the industrial and anti football stuff is nonsense. 

Our problem last week was the slow speed coupled with a very good high press from Rangers. They were energetic. They weren't much better than average but their energy compared to our over patient approach won them the game comfortably. 

Could be the same again tonight. 

But I have seen pretty much only good things and habits at home. Considering the youth of the team and frequently playing with no left back before even considering the constant injuries no mean feat.

I prefer to take a balanced view. Home great away shite and it needs to change. 2 games left to experiment. Free hits. It was 3 and I was disappointed we didn't give it a better go on Sunday 

Thanks for the reply. Glad we finally agree on something.  Be careful though: to say, as I do, that A is "consistent with" B, or that A is "a precondition of" B is not the same thing as saying that A "is" B.  I nowhere suggested that "energy is anti-football".  

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
23 minutes ago, Levein's N said:

Thanks for the reply. Glad we finally agree on something.  Be careful though: to say, as I do, that A is "consistent with" B, or that A is "a precondition of" B is not the same thing as saying that A "is" B.  I nowhere suggested that "energy is anti-football".  

Fair enough, but that's how it reads. I'm sure if we met in person, we would have a decent conversation :thumbsup:

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18 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Fair enough, but that's how it reads. I'm sure if we met in person, we would have a decent conversation :thumbsup:

 Indeed! And for what it's worth, I also agree with your 3 (now 2) "free hits" analysis.  The season's far from being over for me, and I badly want us to "experiment" - starting with tonight against the Sheep. 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
9 minutes ago, Levein's N said:

 Indeed! And for what it's worth, I also agree with your 3 (now 2) "free hits" analysis.  The season's far from being over for me, and I badly want us to "experiment" - starting with tonight against the Sheep. 

Only plausible thing I can think of, his best options to attack, and use the ball are both 17 and he is protecting them as much as he can. Adao and Cowie both give you willing running and box to box stuff, but not much control of the ball and therefore the game.

I'm prepared of going through the motions though. I can't get too excited either way by this point, but pretty desperate to see us hit the ground running next season.

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JamboGraham
9 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

No matter what has gone before Is that not what we should be aiming for?

 

Of course but I like to balance my aims against realistic expectations. Excluding Rangers and Celtic, in the past twenty seasons of top flight football in Scotland only us (once), Motherwell (once) and Aberdeen (three times) have met or exceeded 69 points. It is a huge target. The fact that two clubs, Aberdeen and Hibs, may increase the small group this season is exceptionally rare indeed.

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7 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm referring to the ones signed since August Locky. Milinkovic, Amankwaa, Adao, Naismith, McLaughlin, etc. 

All of which have had a relatively positive impact on the team.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
4 minutes ago, Locky said:

All of which have had a relatively positive impact on the team.

Except Danny. He has been a let down so far, needs to do a decent bit of work in the summer or he will be joining Malaury

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Enzo Chiefo
33 minutes ago, Locky said:

All of which have had a relatively positive impact on the team.

Agreed. Most have had a positive impact and along with Lafferty, Berra, Souttar and the youngsters is basically the first team. My point is that this doesn't square with the oft repeated myth that CL needs time to get his own players in. The players are his.

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Pasquale for King
10 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

Of course but I like to balance my aims against realistic expectations. Excluding Rangers and Celtic, in the past twenty seasons of top flight football in Scotland only us (once), Motherwell (once) and Aberdeen (three times) have met or exceeded 69 points. It is a huge target. The fact that two clubs, Aberdeen and Hibs, may increase the small group this season is exceptionally rare indeed.

So your realism versus my optimism and hopes, I want and I’m not happy if we don’t succeed and win things. I’ve supported Hearts all my life since I went to my first game aged 2 some 45 years ago. Im not prepared to accept crap players or managers, sorry ig that offends folk who think mediocrity is ok. The only thing I admire about Old Firm fans is their demands for success, look at Lennons attitude and what it’s done for Hibs.

If it’s been done before it can be repeated and bettered, records are made to be broken.

Edited by Pasquale for King
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I'm at a bit of a crossroads at the minute, usually I can make my mind up on whether or not to blame the manager, the owner or the players but on this occasion I'm not sure

 

We have an owner who has backed each manager extensively throughout her reign in the transfer market so Ann is out of the question 

 

But I'm not sure, could Levein take us to the next level if he gets a chance to make some signings and build a team? Or can the players who we currently have get us to a higher level with a different manager? 

 

I'm afraid I'm struggling to make my mind up, a part of me wants to see what kind of team Levein can build over such full summer window, but another part of me which is ever growing tells me that another year of rebuilding and excuses awaits, Naismith should have been a stand out in this league, is the fact that he's been ordinary down to himself or the manager? I'm struggling to find an answer 

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Skippy Doodle

Craig Levein competitive away record as Hearts boss prior to last night
 
100 Competitive Matches – 28 Wins, 42 Defeats & 30 Draws – 28%,42%,30%
 
Goals For – 98 (average of 0.98 goals a game)

 

Jordan,McLean & Locke all have better goal to game ratios

 

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