Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, John Gentleman said: Maybe the UK should send two identical samples to, say, Zurich and the OPCW and the Russians could collect their respective samples from there? If The UK authorities have truly nailed its source, I can't understand their reluctance to provide a sample to them. Putin, of course, will just deflect/deny it (al la the Buk missile) but if the OPCW corroborates the UK findings then we'll really see some fireworks. Speech given by the UK's Ambassador to the UN last night. "This was an attack on UK soil. Under the convention, we have the right to lead our response, engaging the OPCW and others as appropriate. On 8 March the UK formally notified the OPCW Technical Secretariat that a chemical attack had taken place on UK soil. The Russian Federation has complained that we are not using article 9 of the Convention. On the contrary, on 12 March, once it became clear to us that the United Kingdom had been attacked, my Foreign Secretary summoned the Russian Ambassador and sought an explanation from his government, as article 9 is clear we have the right to do. We have received no meaningful response. It is therefore Russia which is failing to comply with the provisions of the convention and this Council should not fall for their attempts to muddy the waters. In addition the UK has welcomed the offer of technical assistance from the Director General of the OPCW and we have invited the Technical Secretariat to independently verify our analysis. We are making every effort to expedite this process." "We have not jumped to conclusions. We have carried out a thorough, careful investigation, which continues. We are asking the OPCW to independently verify the nerve agent used. We have offered Russia the chance to explain. But Russia has refused." https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-russian-state-was-responsible-for-the-attempted-murderand-for-threatening-the-lives-of-other-british-citizens-in-salisbury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 14 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: Or Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadJock Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Some news channels this morning reporting that maybe his daughter was the target, which would maybe make a little more sence as i wondered why wait so long to kill him, she was a frequent flier between Russia and Britain so had maybe taken over daddy's work. To the folks asking why they never ran him over, shot him, beat him up the answer is simply killing someone with a nerve agent sends a message out, the strongest message ever as depending on the agent used (none of them are nice)its one of the most slow and painful deaths you can possibly imagine. We wont get the full story we never do, so i am still a bit hesitant , our armed forces are a shadow of what they used to be (not that i think it will escilate that far) and santions only really hurt a country's population as the ruling class never has to do without or suffer so wondering what our highest level of responce would actually be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Seems being a Russian on British soil is a dangerous old thing to be. It would appear that the Kremlin is killing its citizens in the UK with impunity Action needs to be taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: Seems being a Russian on British soil is a dangerous old thing to be. It would appear that the Kremlin is killing its citizens in the UK with impunity Action needs to be taken How do you know the Kremlin did it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcap Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: How do you know the Kremlin did it? They stand to benefit the most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 1 hour ago, MadJock said: Some news channels this morning reporting that maybe his daughter was the target, which would maybe make a little more sence as i wondered why wait so long to kill him, she was a frequent flier between Russia and Britain so had maybe taken over daddy's work. To the folks asking why they never ran him over, shot him, beat him up the answer is simply killing someone with a nerve agent sends a message out, the strongest message ever as depending on the agent used (none of them are nice)its one of the most slow and painful deaths you can possibly imagine. We wont get the full story we never do, so i am still a bit hesitant , our armed forces are a shadow of what they used to be (not that i think it will escilate that far) and santions only really hurt a country's population as the ruling class never has to do without or suffer so wondering what our highest level of responce would actually be. At the time this first happened, Sky News reported that according to her facebook page she said that she worked for Pepsico, however Sky News couldn't find any workers who knew her and her name didn't appear in the Pepsico list of employees either. Now of course, people might just that they didn't know her so as to not be associated with her. But I did think it was strange at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, southcap said: They stand to benefit the most? Not sure they do, possibly the opposite depending on international response. But in any case that is not evidence they did do it. Wheres James Bond when you need him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcap Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Just now, deesidejambo said: Not sure they do, possibly the opposite depending on international response. But in any case that is not evidence they did do it. Wheres James Bond when you need him. It's a short gain for the election, they currently don't care about long term issues, they just need to get over this hurdle. Russia is run like any large scale autocratic criminal organisation, power rules. 1. Putin stays in power for as long as his powerful allies(other oligarchs) are happy with him there or have no means to oust him. He has to put on a show of strength. 2. Putin NEEDS a strong election result. Winning it is guaranteed, that's not the issue, he needs a landslide to put off any potential political dissent. Coups have started with less than 40% political support. 3. He wants extra sanctions placed on the country. It creates a larger us v them mentality with the Russia population and the rest of the world. 4. Along with needing his oligarchs, he needs the 'government' on his side, ie the intelligence services and the millitary. He just got a massive round of drinks in for the intelligence community by attacking on of their most detested traitors. 5. Power projection. A massive **** you to the UK and the rest of the world, leaving all the evidence needed to ensure the finger points at him yet he can shrug his shoulders and say it wasn't me, prove it. 7. Russia is as skint as it's ever been, thanks to Putin and his cronies. There is probably so much money being offered to Russians to jump ship right now they need to show it isn't worth it, even 14 years down the line when you are living a cosy life. That's just from the top off my head. Everything about this attack so far has been a net positive for Russia. Now, who stands to benefit from them being stitched up? This attack has mostly been for internal consumption, not external. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 31 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: How do you know the Kremlin did it? One poisoned by Pollonium 2 by nerve agents another "dissident" enemy found strangled in his flat yesterday numerous others died young, or unexplained If it were mob hits, which is possible- they would have tortured or merely shot them- as its lower risk to the assassin than the transport and use of nerve agents/ radioactive material- which is quite indiscriminate and has a high risk to the perp. the only other times such things have been used have been by nation states- Syria, N Korea its either they have worse lifestyles than Glaswegians, or Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, southcap said: It's a short gain for the election, they currently don't care about long term issues, they just need to get over this hurdle. Russia is run like any large scale autocratic criminal organisation, power rules. 1. Putin stays in power for as long as his powerful allies(other oligarchs) are happy with him there or have no means to oust him. He has to put on a show of strength. 2. Putin NEEDS a strong election result. Winning it is guaranteed, that's not the issue, he needs a landslide to put off any potential political dissent. Coups have started with less than 40% political support. 3. He wants extra sanctions placed on the country. It creates a larger us v them mentality with the Russia population and the rest of the world. 4. Along with needing his oligarchs, he needs the 'government' on his side, ie the intelligence services and the millitary. He just got a massive round of drinks in for the intelligence community by attacking on of their most detested traitors. 5. Power projection. A massive **** you to the UK and the rest of the world, leaving all the evidence needed to ensure the finger points at him yet he can shrug his shoulders and say it wasn't me, prove it. 7. Russia is as skint as it's ever been, thanks to Putin and his cronies. There is probably so much money being offered to Russians to jump ship right now they need to show it isn't worth it, even 14 years down the line when you are living a cosy life. That's just from the top off my head. Everything about this attack so far has been a net positive for Russia. Now, who stands to benefit from them being stitched up? This attack has mostly been for internal consumption, not external. There are oither alternatives - it is possible that the KGB are doing this unilaterally without Kremlin knowledge. It is possible that it is actually the daughter who is an active spy or whatever so the KGB are acting unilaterally -who knows they may have been doing that for years. I dont buy your point that Putin is actively looking for more sanctions against them to gain voter support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zico Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Southcap gets it. Tinfoil hat wearers who’ve seen too many spy films? Not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: Not sure they do, possibly the opposite depending on international response. But in any case that is not evidence they did do it. Wheres James Bond when you need him. Cleaning nerve agent off of himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 21 minutes ago, southcap said: It's a short gain for the election, they currently don't care about long term issues, they just need to get over this hurdle. Russia is run like any large scale autocratic criminal organisation, power rules. 1. Putin stays in power for as long as his powerful allies(other oligarchs) are happy with him there or have no means to oust him. He has to put on a show of strength. 2. Putin NEEDS a strong election result. Winning it is guaranteed, that's not the issue, he needs a landslide to put off any potential political dissent. Coups have started with less than 40% political support. 3. He wants extra sanctions placed on the country. It creates a larger us v them mentality with the Russia population and the rest of the world. 4. Along with needing his oligarchs, he needs the 'government' on his side, ie the intelligence services and the millitary. He just got a massive round of drinks in for the intelligence community by attacking on of their most detested traitors. 5. Power projection. A massive **** you to the UK and the rest of the world, leaving all the evidence needed to ensure the finger points at him yet he can shrug his shoulders and say it wasn't me, prove it. 7. Russia is as skint as it's ever been, thanks to Putin and his cronies. There is probably so much money being offered to Russians to jump ship right now they need to show it isn't worth it, even 14 years down the line when you are living a cosy life. That's just from the top off my head. Everything about this attack so far has been a net positive for Russia. Now, who stands to benefit from them being stitched up? This attack has mostly been for internal consumption, not external. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/russia-spy-poisoning-salisbury-moscow interesting take on things from ordinary Russian citizens. This was quite a good documentary too https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09vb7m3/putin-the-new-tsar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Quite a lot of kickbackers assume an awful lot when they can know feck all. If you work at MI5, MI6, military intelligence, Porton Down, you're on the COBRA committee or have seen classified information, say so. If not, you have no idea what has happened. The same with WMDs in Iraq: folk who know, just know, from the vantage point of their house in Granton or Newington, what is and is not buried under the ground in Mesopotamia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Quite a lot of kickbackers assume an awful lot when they can know feck all. If you work at MI5, MI6, military intelligence, Porton Down, you're on the COBRA committee or have seen classified information, say so. If not, you have no idea what has happened. The same with WMDs in Iraq: folk who know, just know, from the vantage point of their house in Granton or Newington, what is and is not buried under the ground in Mesopotamia. It was Elvis. It’s sooo obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, deesidejambo said: It was Elvis. It’s sooo obvious Nah, he was working down our chip shop when it happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo-fletch Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Gavin Williamson saying Russia should ' go away and shut up' that'll tell em Gav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, jambo-fletch said: Gavin Williamson saying Russia should ' go away and shut up' that'll tell em Gav They should jolly well pack all this nonsense in and buckle down.. and be quick about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 1 hour ago, jambo-fletch said: Gavin Williamson saying Russia should ' go away and shut up' that'll tell em Gav That was a bit of a crass comment at this delicate time. Strong words needed but no need for stupid throw away lines like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 The UK, USA, France & Germany have issued a joint statement condemning Russia for carrying out this attack. https://news.sky.com/story/live-johnson-calls-for-allied-support-over-russia-poisoning-stand-11290329 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271 Earlier the NATO Secretary General also slammed Russia over the nerve agent attack. https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/world/nato-leader-slams-russian-ex-spy-poisoning-we-do-not-want-a-new-cold-war/2018/03/15/8ed239ea-284f-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_video.html?utm_term=.6c0b177146bf We now have the UK, USA, France, Germany & NATO all publicly blaming Russia for carrying out this attack. France yesterday said that they would wait until they had seen proof of Russia's involvement before making any statements. Today the French are joint signatories of a letter blaming Russia, one can only assume therefore that the French have seen the proof. Just because it's not plastered all over facebook & twitter doesn't mean the proof doesn't exist, besides it's probably intelligence based and to reveal it publicly would likely put agents lives at risk or confirm that we have bugs installed. What else will it take before the deniers accept that the weight of evidence is surely stacking up hour by hour against Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 59 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: The UK, USA, France & Germany have issued a joint statement condemning Russia for carrying out this attack. https://news.sky.com/story/live-johnson-calls-for-allied-support-over-russia-poisoning-stand-11290329 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271 Earlier the NATO Secretary General also slammed Russia over the nerve agent attack. https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/world/nato-leader-slams-russian-ex-spy-poisoning-we-do-not-want-a-new-cold-war/2018/03/15/8ed239ea-284f-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_video.html?utm_term=.6c0b177146bf We now have the UK, USA, France, Germany & What else will it take before the deniers accept that the weight of evidence is surely stacking up hour by hour against Russia. Not a 'denier' or a friend of Putin, but condemnation by a non NATO country would be good, or from the UN As you say, France joining in is a good sign, as they can be hard to persuade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 23 hours ago, southcap said: No I don't. I have a very prejudiced view on low income people who vote tory. Fixed that for you. At least you admit your prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 4 hours ago, southcap said: It's a short gain for the election, they currently don't care about long term issues, they just need to get over this hurdle. Russia is run like any large scale autocratic criminal organisation, power rules. 1. Putin stays in power for as long as his powerful allies(other oligarchs) are happy with him there or have no means to oust him. He has to put on a show of strength. 2. Putin NEEDS a strong election result. Winning it is guaranteed, that's not the issue, he needs a landslide to put off any potential political dissent. Coups have started with less than 40% political support. 3. He wants extra sanctions placed on the country. It creates a larger us v them mentality with the Russia population and the rest of the world. 4. Along with needing his oligarchs, he needs the 'government' on his side, ie the intelligence services and the millitary. He just got a massive round of drinks in for the intelligence community by attacking on of their most detested traitors. 5. Power projection. A massive **** you to the UK and the rest of the world, leaving all the evidence needed to ensure the finger points at him yet he can shrug his shoulders and say it wasn't me, prove it. 7. Russia is as skint as it's ever been, thanks to Putin and his cronies. There is probably so much money being offered to Russians to jump ship right now they need to show it isn't worth it, even 14 years down the line when you are living a cosy life. That's just from the top off my head. Everything about this attack so far has been a net positive for Russia. Now, who stands to benefit from them being stitched up? This attack has mostly been for internal consumption, not external. This is exactly it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVodka Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Gorgiewave said: Quite a lot of kickbackers assume an awful lot when they can know feck all. If you work at MI5, MI6, military intelligence, Porton Down, you're on the COBRA committee or have seen classified information, say so. If not, you have no idea what has happened. The same with WMDs in Iraq: folk who know, just know, from the vantage point of their house in Granton or Newington, what is and is not buried under the ground in Mesopotamia. This - there is so much information that the general public are not privy to especially at a level such as this one. Even serious crime that are managed by the police much of the details at the time do not get released Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH11 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Let's hope for a good diplomatic outcome. Jingoism from the government will lead to the ultimate outcome that no-one wants. Higher gas prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Seems very counter productive for Russia to do such a thing. When will this government allow Russia to inspect samples of this toxic poison?? "Perhaps it is time to realise that if your country becomes a haven for dodgy people like Berezovsky then dodgy things are likely to happen.” Unlikely that Vladimir Putin behind Skripal poisoning; Attack would have been counterproductive for Russia and jeopardise future spy swaps https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 OPCW are getting a sample so that might settle down the odd naysayer. The UK-US-France-Germany axis statement may well cause a few more to realise that the prosecution case is not solely based on assumption. Our allies just would not allign themselves with the UK unless more information was known and has been shared in intelligence briefings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Victorian said: OPCW are getting a sample so that might settle down the odd naysayer. The UK-US-France-Germany axis statement may well cause a few more to realise that the prosecution case is not solely based on assumption. Our allies just would not allign themselves with the UK unless more information was known and has been shared in intelligence briefings. As ive said above I’d want it to be more than “our allies” to be supportive of our case. If OPCW are getting it that’s very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Just now, scott herbertson said: As ive said above I’d want it to be more than “our allies” to be supportive of our case. If OPCW are getting it that’s very good. Yes ideally it would be useful for other countries to be involved but the sharing of intelligence naturally limits who gets the full picture. Not even NATO (the whole of) will be privy to the intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, Victorian said: Yes ideally it would be useful for other countries to be involved but the sharing of intelligence naturally limits who gets the full picture. Not even NATO (the whole of) will be privy to the intelligence. ..and then Russia will continue to say we are making it up, like Saddam said re WMD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 (edited) Reeks of Blair and his Blaireites WMD fairy tales. "To summarise: 1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia. 2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist. 3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW. 4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can. 5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ Edited March 15, 2018 by maroonlegions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, maroonlegions said: Reeks of Blair and his Blaireites WMD fairy tales. "To summarise: 1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia. 2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist. 3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW. 4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can. 5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ you might want to actually check your facts before posting, many outlets are reporting a sample is going to opcw https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/uk-send-poison-sample-opcw-nerve-attack-spy-180315080321509.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 1 minute ago, scott herbertson said: ..and then Russia will continue to say we are making it up, like Saddam said re WMD It doesn't matter what Russia says. Their rhetoric thus far has been over the top and quite deliberately so in my opinion. Quite deliberate for the express purpose of being difficult to believe. A truthful, concerned 'defence' would never have been so contemptuous. They're playing a game. The denial is not to plead innocence. It is to say "**** you all" and show they are untouchable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, maroonlegions said: Reeks of Blair and his Blaireites WMD fairy tales. "To summarise: 1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia. 2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist. 3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW. 4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can. 5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ The UK is providing a sample to the OPCW, indeed the UK has been in contact with the OPCW since the 8 March and have invited them to conduct a full and independent investigation into the attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Maroonleggings in no-so-informed shockfest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Victorian said: Maroonleggings in no-so-informed shockfest. And 24 hours late, as per usual, as that article was posted on this thread last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, maroonlegions said: Reeks of Blair and his Blaireites WMD fairy tales. "To summarise: 1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia. 2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist. 3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW. 4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can. 5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ You’re as bad as that nob who posts all the conspiracies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Victorian said: It doesn't matter what Russia says. Their rhetoric thus far has been over the top and quite deliberately so in my opinion. Quite deliberate for the express purpose of being difficult to believe. A truthful, concerned 'defence' would never have been so contemptuous. They're playing a game. The denial is not to plead innocence. It is to say "**** you all" and show they are untouchable. I think you’re over elaborating that. I think they don’t think they need to do anything more than flatly deny it as no country outside of NATO (their ‘biased’ enemies) will condemn them and no country at all will act meaningfully against them. Having seen the ‘sanctions’ we are imposing they seem to have judged it right so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Just now, scott herbertson said: I think you’re over elaborating that. I think they don’t think they need to do anything more than flatly deny it as no country outside of NATO (their ‘biased’ enemies) will condemn them and no country at all will act meaningfully against them. Having seen the ‘sanctions’ we are imposing they seem to have judged it right so far. EU economic sanctions to follow. Hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Victorian said: EU economic sanctions to follow. Hopefully. That would be good also stronger sanctions on visas if the government has the kahoonas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 28 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: The UK is providing a sample to the OPCW, indeed the UK has been in contact with the OPCW since the 8 March and have invited them to conduct a full and independent investigation into the attack. 8th March? So why so long? Are they on the moon? This reeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff the Mince Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 2 hours ago, maroonlegions said: Seems very counter productive for Russia to do such a thing. When will this government allow Russia to inspect samples of this toxic poison?? "Perhaps it is time to realise that if your country becomes a haven for dodgy people like Berezovsky then dodgy things are likely to happen.” Unlikely that Vladimir Putin behind Skripal poisoning; Attack would have been counterproductive for Russia and jeopardise future spy swaps https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736 Bezerovsky actually played a large part in getting Putin elected first time , also Abramovich should be asked about how he came about his wealth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 (edited) Isn’t it funny, how May gets in a pickle, every time these major national security issues crop up not long after? Jo Cox, Westminster attack and now this. Saying that, it’s been a while since a UK jihadist done anything. Are they all on holiday? Weird. Edited March 15, 2018 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 29 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Isn’t it funny, how May gets in a pickle, every time these major national security issues crop up not long after? Jo Cox, Westminster attack and now this. Saying that, it’s been a while since a UK jihadist done anything. Are they all on holiday? Weird. So by your reasoning she has only been in three pickles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Victorian said: Maroonleggings in no-so-informed shockfest. At least he didn’t say the Tories did it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said: So by your reasoning she has only been in three pickles? Just a bit food for thought. Just before the spy nonsense started, Donald Tusk was on the record saying Irish border talks first before anything on Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 39 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Isn’t it funny, how May gets in a pickle, every time these major national security issues crop up not long after? Jo Cox, Westminster attack and now this. Saying that, it’s been a while since a UK jihadist done anything. Are they all on holiday? Weird. The Jihadi Russians are just the worst though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said: The Jihadi Russians are just the worst though... Brace yourselves for the next media onslaught then :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Just now, Space Mackerel said: Brace yourselves for the next media onslaught then :-/ Aye, and you thought the last beast from the East was bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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