Poisoned Russian spy.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Remember we were all reliably informed by some folks that it couldn't have been the Russians, well.

 

Two Russian nationals have today been named as suspects in this case, indeed charges have been brought and an arrest warrant issued.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45421445

 

 

The UK tory government said so, so it must be true. 

WMD anyone! 

[jake]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The UK tory government said so, so it must be true. 

WMD anyone! 

So let me get this straight.

Two individuals accused of a crime have their case against them broadcast on national tv .

It's said that the modern day version of the KGB used passports across Europe.

Bit amateur.

Caught on cctv casing the address .

Bit amateur.

 

The KGB.

Travelling through Europe with the same passport

Patterns of movement so easy to follow.

that of course you would expect from a sophisticated secret service.

 

 

[jake]

? 

 

Anyone watching newsnight.

 

The guy saying that other European countries will now be aware of the way Russia works.

 

Aye right then.

 

[Victorian]

A bacofoil heid isn't going to alter planetary orbit as a result of any information.    Fruitcake theories are pretty much cast in stone.

[jake]

19 minutes ago, Victorian said:

A bacofoil heid isn't going to alter planetary orbit as a result of any information.    Fruitcake theories are pretty much cast in stone.

No it isn't.

Which is why we have law.

And due process.

And not trial by media.

 

Or that's what I thought.

 

 

And perhaps you should apply your no doubt sober thoughts to what it is you are actually being told.

Because if our government is so enraged about the murder of people by foreign nationals in a political way on our soil.

I can think of a few other crimes that should garner the same resource and attention.

Which leads me to the fairly sound conclusion that this is politically motivated .

 

Thanks anyway for your shitey patter.

 

Tinfoil ffs 

[JudyJudyJudy]

It ook 13 years to find Dorothys shoes yet only a few months to find these guys …..absolute bollocks....im surprised people in the House didn't burst out laughing at Mays " statement"...comedy gold...

[Governor Tarkin]

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Governor Tarkin

[indianajones]

If anyone genuinely still believes this was Russia you need your heads looked at. 

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, indianajones said:

If anyone genuinely still believes this was Russia you need your heads looked at. 

 

 

James Bond is on his way to Moscow.

[Victorian]

They're out in force.    

[William H. Bonney]

10 hours ago, indianajones said:

If anyone genuinely still believes this was Russia you need your heads looked at. 

 

 

 

If not Russia, who then? 

[The Old Tolbooth]

[Geoff the Mince]

Plenty tinfoil being sold . 

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

I think it is double bluff by Russia. Make it look a bungled effort and it will point to the British. Some are buying that I see?

[Victorian]

15 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I think it is double bluff by Russia. Make it look a bungled effort and it will point to the British. Some are buying that I see?

 

No I think the general dynamic going on with sceptics is that they are inherently incapable of forming credible conclusions from non-evidential information.     They can only deal in absolutes.     To a bacofoil beenie,     lack of detailed evidence = must be a conspiracy.      These people live in a debilitating fog of makebelieve.

 

There is no obligation on the part of the UK to provide a running commentary of hard evidence.     It has determined events from intelligence and other sensitive information and has announced it's findings.     The UK's stated position has drawn many global allies into the subsequent diplomatic 'war' which would not have occured if the sharing of intelligence and security information has been less than fully compelling.

 

An aluminium heid cannot perceive this concept.

[Governor Tarkin]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No I think the general dynamic going on with sceptics is that they are inherently incapable of forming credible conclusions from non-evidential information.     They can only deal in absolutes.     To a bacofoil beenie,     lack of detailed evidence = must be a conspiracy.      These people live in a debilitating fog of makebelieve.

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No I think the general dynamic going on with sceptics is that they are inherently incapable of forming credible conclusions from non-evidential information.     They can only deal in absolutes.     To a bacofoil beenie,     lack of detailed evidence = must be a conspiracy.      These people live in a debilitating fog of makebelieve.

 

There is no obligation on the part of the UK to provide a running commentary of hard evidence.     It has determined events from intelligence and other sensitive information and has announced it's findings.     The UK's stated position has drawn many global allies into the subsequent diplomatic 'war' which would not have occured if the sharing of intelligence and security information has been less than fully compelling.

 

An aluminium heid cannot perceive this concept.

 

In the begining the UK got slammed for not providing any evidence, and now that it has provided evidence the same people are slamming that evidence.

The simple truth is, it doesn't matter what evidence is produced they have it in their minds that the UK is lying and the Russians are telling the truth and nothing the UK says or does will change that, even a video or signed confession wouldn't be good enough for them, as they'd still find something to doubt about it, that I'm afraid is the world that they live in, where they see a conspiracy in everything.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Amazing how people can ignore what’s in front of their eyes simply to have a dig at Westminster.

 

Mind you, now that their separatist hero has been reduced to crowdfunding by certain allegations, I guess it’s desperate times.

[indianajones]

Powerful nation sends agents from homeland with lethal chemical weapon to take out ex spy by passenger aircraft. 

 

Chemical is extremely powerful but somehow both targets survive the attack.

 

Trained GRU agents then dispose of the extremely potent chemical by throwing the evidence away into a public park which the later kills a MOP.

 

Agents then board a plane back to Moscow.

 

I mean, really? Does this sound like a logical plan by any nation? 

 

No buying it. 

 

 

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

16 minutes ago, indianajones said:

Powerful nation sends agents from homeland with lethal chemical weapon to take out ex spy by passenger aircraft. 

 

Chemical is extremely powerful but somehow both targets survive the attack.

 

Trained GRU agents then dispose of the extremely potent chemical by throwing the evidence away into a public park which the later kills a MOP.

 

Agents then board a plane back to Moscow.

 

I mean, really? Does this sound like a logical plan by any nation? 

 

No buying it. 

 

 

 

 

Does seem a bit amateurish the whole thing.

[milky_26]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Does seem a bit amateurish the whole thing.

so was the killing of alexander litvinenko, they tried to kill him at least once before in the weeks leading up to their successful poisoning of him. 

[Victorian]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it turns out those GRU agents are brothers.     There's a definite similarity in some features.      They could easily be brothers.       

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it turns out those GRU agents are brothers.     There's a definite similarity in some features.      They could easily be brothers.       

Chuckle brothers?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Tin foil hattist Craig Murray has written an article picking holes in the timeline of the gov't evidence. 

 

The whole thing is more Mr Bean than Mr Bond. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, indianajones said:

Powerful nation sends agents from homeland with lethal chemical weapon to take out ex spy by passenger aircraft. 

 

Chemical is extremely powerful but somehow both targets survive the attack.

 

Trained GRU agents then dispose of the extremely potent chemical by throwing the evidence away into a public park which the later kills a MOP.

 

Agents then board a plane back to Moscow.

 

I mean, really? Does this sound like a logical plan by any nation? 

 

No buying it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Your forgetting one thing, and that is the Russians don't give a flying feck if they leave a trail behind them allowing it to be followed, indeed it serves a purpose if the breadcrums lead straight back to Moscow, because it sends out a message to opponents of the Russian state that the state can get to them and get away with it as well, because just what are the West going to do, nothing absolutely nothing and the Russians know this, just look at the inaction shown by the West when the Russians invaded Crimea & the Ukraine and Georgia before that.

Sure the West will beat it's chest and expel some diplomats maybe even apply some sanctions here and there, a small price to pay for the land seized or the message being sent out.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, milky_26 said:

so was the killing of alexander litvinenko, they tried to kill him at least once before in the weeks leading up to their successful poisoning of him. 

Surely shooting someone would be the easiest option.

[pointon]

It’s well documented some of  the crazy plots the CIA came up with to eliminate Fidel Castro 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, pointon said:

It’s well documented some of  the crazy plots the CIA came up with to eliminate Fidel Castro 

Poisoning his cigars just being one. 

[milky_26]

8 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Surely shooting someone would be the easiest option.

not if you want to properly scare your enemies

[milky_26]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Poisoning his cigars just being one. 

wasn't there the idea of an exploding cigar as well?

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, milky_26 said:

wasn't there the idea of an exploding cigar as well?

There was, yes. 

[pointon]

They also considered contaminating one of his diving suits to cause a chronic skin disease resulting in death

[coconut doug]

9 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Amazing how people can ignore what’s in front of their eyes simply to have a dig at Westminster.

 

Mind you, now that their separatist hero has been reduced to crowdfunding by certain allegations, I guess it’s desperate times.

Amazing how people can see things that don't exist simply to have a dig at people who are skeptical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it turns out those GRU agents are brothers.     There's a definite similarity in some features.      They could easily be brothers.       

Have they identified them yet? Surely Sergei could help, he was in the GRU. Wasn't that sergei's area of expertise?

[Victorian]

10 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Have they identified them yet? Surely Sergei could help, he was in the GRU. Wasn't that sergei's area of expertise?

 

Good yin.     I bet Sergei Skripal had access to the identities of all GRU operatives for the years since he ceased to be involved.      Keep 'em coming.

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Good yin.     I bet Sergei Skripal had access to the identities of all GRU operatives for the years since he ceased to be involved.      Keep 'em coming.

That'll be why Sergei never recognised them when they allegedly walked down his street, up his path and smeared the world's most deadly nerve agent on his door handle.

 

No contacts left then for Sergiei so he is unable to provide MI5 with names of people who might know the identity of the twin brothers . MI5 have no knowledge of GRU operatives either.

 

How do they know they are even Russian if they do not know their identities?

 

 

[Victorian]

8 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

That'll be why Sergei never recognised them when they allegedly walked down his street, up his path and smeared the world's most deadly nerve agent on his door handle.

 

No contacts left then for Sergiei so he is unable to provide MI5 with names of people who might know the identity of the twin brothers . MI5 have no knowledge of GRU operatives either.

 

How do they know they are even Russian if they do not know their identities?

 

 

 

Twins was never mentioned.     No wonder conspiracy theorists invent their own facts at a whim.     Laughable.

 

Has it been established that the Skripals were at home when the GRU recced the house?    No.

 

They have been identified as Russian GRU operatives from other,  undisclosed intelligence,  as stated.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Victorian

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just now, coconut doug said:

That'll be why Sergei never recognised them when they allegedly walked down his street, up his path and smeared the world's most deadly nerve agent on his door handle.

 

No contacts left then for Sergiei so he is unable to provide MI5 with names of people who might know the identity of the twin brothers . MI5 have no knowledge of GRU operatives either.

 

How do they know they are even Russian if they do not know their identities?

 

 

 

You're assuming that Sergei saw them, big assumption that don't you think, unless you where there you can't know if Sergei saw them or not, or if the Skripals were even in the house at the time.

 

Clue could be that they used Russian passports issued by Russia ideniflying them as Russian nationals, all this information is recorded when they scan your passport when you enter the country.

[Victorian]

I guess when you inhabit the dark side of the moon,    your info tends to come from E.T. sources.

[Geoff the Mince]

5 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

That'll be why Sergei never recognised them when they allegedly walked down his street, up his path and smeared the world's most deadly nerve agent on his door handle.

 

No contacts left then for Sergiei so he is unable to provide MI5 with names of people who might know the identity of the twin brothers . MI5 have no knowledge of GRU operatives either.

 

How do they know they are even Russian if they do not know their identities?

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

That'll be why Sergei never recognised them when they allegedly walked down his street, up his path and smeared the world's most deadly nerve agent on his door handle.

 

No contacts left then for Sergiei so he is unable to provide MI5 with names of people who might know the identity of the twin brothers . MI5 have no knowledge of GRU operatives either.

 

How do they know they are even Russian if they do not know their identities?

 

 

Are you for real ? 

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Twins was never mentioned.     No wonder conspiracy theorists invent their own facts at a whim.     Laughable.

 

Has it been established that the Skripals were at home when the GRU recced the house?    No.

 

They have been identified as Russian GRU operatives from other,  undisclosed intelligence,  as stated.

They might not be twins or even related but since so many people have pointed out how similar they look don't you think this might be a talking point and make them more easy to identify?

 

Who knows where the Skripals were. Craig Murray gives an account of the timing difficulties in the oficial story but even if the twins managed to reccy the place and then apply the Novichoks wasn't it good fortune that the Skripals were not at home? Did they have a ploy to get the Skripals out the house? Could they be sure nobody was in the house or that they would not return and see them' ater all they were on foot.  With a large garden and open space maybe one of the Skripals neighbours saw these guys at the Skripals door.

 

If they have been identified as GRU agents why did HMG identify them to Russia as aliases? Why not identify them with their real names?

 

None of this is conspiracy theory (stupid phrase). I have no idea what happened i am merely challenging the official narrative because it does not make sense to me. Even so the Russians may well have done it but i prefer the Steele/Miller theory. There is no proof at all to support it but it does seem much more likely to me. The D notice around this stuff tells me our government has got something to hide.

 

You talk of me inventing facts actually it's the opposite. You were right when you said some people need hard evidence to be convinced. I do and until i see it i will remain skeptical and keep an open mind.

[coconut doug]

44 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You're assuming that Sergei saw them, big assumption that don't you think, unless you where there you can't know if Sergei saw them or not, or if the Skripals were even in the house at the time.

 

Clue could be that they used Russian passports issued by Russia ideniflying them as Russian nationals, all this information is recorded when they scan your passport when you enter the country.

I'm assuming nothing. I am skeptical.

 

Passports can be forged. If i fly in from Dubai on a British passport it doesn't make me Lawrence of Arabia.

[Victorian]

The UK's assessment is that the passports were issued on aliases but were of genuine origin.    

 

Yes they are fake... faked by the Russian state.

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The UK's assessment is that the passports were issued on aliases but were of genuine origin.    

 

Yes they are fake... faked by the Russian state.

Look the Russians did it. What about Brexit. Look, look the Russians did it. What about the NHS, look look the Russians did it. What about the possibility of a untied Ireland. Look look, the Russians did it. What about Indyref 2. Look we own Scotland. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

44 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I'm assuming nothing. I am skeptical.

 

Passports can be forged. If i fly in from Dubai on a British passport it doesn't make me Lawrence of Arabia.

 

As I am, you'll not get anybody more skeptical then me.

 

Of course passports can be faked, but do you not think your pushing your luck flying out of Moscow and then returning back to Moscow using a faked Russian passport, why would you do that, why would you fly back into the lions den (so to speak) with a faked passport that could be detected by security at any time.

 

But to use your own analogy, say you did get out of Dubai using a faked British passport and let's say you managed to gain entry into the UK using the same faked passport, would you then be confident to repeat the same process in reverse a couple of days later using your faked British passport to get out of the UK back to Dubai?

Edited September 6, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Boris]

Interesting response from the Russian Government.  Probable deflection, but plausible?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/07/russia-asks-britain-for-help-identifying-novichok-suspects-gru

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

5 hours ago, Boris said:

Interesting response from the Russian Government.  Probable deflection, but plausible?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/07/russia-asks-britain-for-help-identifying-novichok-suspects-gru

 

 

 

The problem with that angle is that gangsters would have access to a WMD. 

 

If that is the case, the Kremlin seems curiously unfazed that the WMD is “out there”. If gangsters can get hold of it, why not Russia’s own terrorist threat. 

 

It reads like plausible deniability and there is even a chance that the perps have since suffered brain haemorrhages of the 9mm variety. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

20 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

The problem with that angle is that gangsters would have access to a WMD. 

 

If that is the case, the Kremlin seems curiously unfazed that the WMD is “out there”. If gangsters can get hold of it, why not Russia’s own terrorist threat. 

 

It reads like plausible deniability and there is even a chance that the perps have since suffered brain haemorrhages of the 9mm variety. 

 

Was thinking along similar lines, if the Russians want the British to help them find the suspects, then the Russians already know they'll never be found and it's all just an exercise for the Russians to claim that they are wanting to help.

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Was thinking along similar lines, if the Russians want the British to help them find the suspects, then the Russians already know they'll never be found and it's all just an exercise for the Russians to claim that they are wanting to help.

If you are not prepared to cooperate then you leave yourself open to accusation that you have something to hide. If you try and fail and can show that the Russians failed to genuinely cooperate then you damege their credibilty. The UK authorities have reportedly refused to share fingerprint evidence, chemical samples, the contents of their UK visa application.and passport numbers at the very least. What would be the problem in sharing this info? If nothing is revealed through cooperation then maybe they could claim the Russians were obstructive. At the moment it is the British who are withholding evidence and refusing to cooperate. Is it not the case that the British know there is no point in cooperation brcause they know it has nothing to do with the Russian government?

 

              Where is Sergei? Apparently he has not telephoned his elderly mother since the attack.    

[Geoff the Mince]

23 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

If you are not prepared to cooperate then you leave yourself open to accusation that you have something to hide. If you try and fail and can show that the Russians failed to genuinely cooperate then you damege their credibilty. The UK authorities have reportedly refused to share fingerprint evidence, chemical samples, the contents of their UK visa application.and passport numbers at the very least. What would be the problem in sharing this info? If nothing is revealed through cooperation then maybe they could claim the Russians were obstructive. At the moment it is the British who are withholding evidence and refusing to cooperate. Is it not the case that the British know there is no point in cooperation brcause they know it has nothing to do with the Russian government?

 

              Where is Sergei? Apparently he has not telephoned his elderly mother since the attack.