Poisoned Russian spy.

[Geoff the Mince]

Assad senior was a nutter like his son

 

the FSA were exclusively Syrian 

 

and GlobalResearch are a bunch of Jew hating , 9/11 conspiracy nuts . 

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

Not by me bob.

And the "rebels" are foreign fighters.

 

And whoever's side you take in all of this it's no civil war.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-its-not-a-civil-war-and-it-never-was/5498602 

 

Globalresearch.ca. Another Russian agitprop site.

 

Try again please.

[jake]

5 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

At least you haven’t been called a Troll.     Yet.

No because he isn't one.

 

You can be.

Which is a pity because I genuinely think you asked the most important question on this topic.

[jake]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Globalresearch.ca. Another Russian agitprop site.

 

Try again please.

I purposely posted this .

 

Tell me what it says that you disagree with.

 

[Sharpie]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Not by me bob.

And the "rebels" are foreign fighters.

 

And whoever's side you take in all of this it's no civil war.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-its-not-a-civil-war-and-it-never-was/5498602 

 

 

Edit.

Bob I give my own views and they are rough round the edges.

Hence my language as I have been posting about Syria for a while.

 

It has not been news for a while and hey Presto.

 

 

 Jake when I see the term rebel I look at as someone who is reacting against the standing order, as in the past action against the King, action against the Dictator, this involves the taking of arms and armed revolution.  Foreign fighters are just that, persons who are in some cases imperted to assist on or other of the two sides. They are often described as mercenaries.

[jake]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/stop-calling-the-syrian-conflict-a-civil-war-its-not/?utm_term=.73c8ff31cc15

 

Here Shaun.

And one that suits your narrative.

[deesidejambo]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

No because he isn't one.

 

You can be.

Which is a pity because I genuinely think you asked the most important question on this topic.

But you did call Shaun a Troll.   You may not agree with him, and I don’t on some issues either, but Troll.  He ain’t.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, bobsharp said:

 Jake when I see the term rebel I look at as someone who is reacting against the standing order, as in the past action against the King, action against the Dictator, this involves the taking of arms and armed revolution.  Foreign fighters are just that, persons who are in some cases imperted to assist on or other of the two sides. They are often described as mercenaries.

 

Indeed.   Otherwise we can't call the Spanish civil war a civil war.     

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/stop-calling-the-syrian-conflict-a-civil-war-its-not/?utm_term=.73c8ff31cc15

 

Here Shaun.

And one that suits your narrative.

 

It's both. For the reasons I set out above. 

[jake]

Just now, bobsharp said:

 Jake when I see the term rebel I look at as someone who is reacting against the standing order, as in the past action against the King, action against the Dictator, this involves the taking of arms and armed revolution.  Foreign fighters are just that, persons who are in some cases imperted to assist on or other of the two sides. They are often described as mercenaries.

Bob.

I'm a rebel of sorts.

Haha mate I really am.

But these foreign fighters in Syria are a coalition of murdering pirates.

Employed by our tax money and Saudi and Israeli .

It's a proxy war .

Imo Bob.

And it was started as such.

 

It cannot be denied.

 

And if by some chance some fecker came into Scotland and was armed and told me to follow their will I would expect my government to fek them up.

 

That's international law.

 

[jake]

4 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

But you did call Shaun a Troll.   You may not agree with him, and I don’t on some issues either, but Troll.  He ain’t.

Yes actually he is and not in relation to my posts .

 

[deesidejambo]

Just now, jake said:

Yes actually he is and not in relation to my posts .

 

Isnt

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Indeed.   Otherwise we can't call the Spanish civil war a civil war.     

Was the Spanish version Instigated by foreign influence?

 

And actually what is a civil war.

 

 

 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

Isnt

Then we differ.

No surprise

[deesidejambo]

Just now, jake said:

Then we differ.

No surprise

I don’t differ from you for the simple reason that I can’t understand your posts.

 

Do you always post when pashed?

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, deesidejambo said:

I don’t differ from you for the simple reason that I can’t understand your posts.

 

Do you always post when pashed?

 

Alarmingly, I think he's completely sober right now. 

[Victorian]

Just now, jake said:

Was the Spanish version Instigated by foreign influence?

 

And actually what is a civil war.

 

 

 

 

It's only you who is placing full emphasis on a so-called foreign influence to establish the war.     None of that is accepted fact,  only your opinion.

 

Everyone else accepts there has been foreign encouragement and aid.

 

The universally defined meaning of a civil war is exactly as it has been descibed here.    Yet all have their own particular differences.

[jake]

Anyway as we all sleep tonight there is the mayhem that our government and its allies created.

And I have to say that Syria has for a long time affected me in a futile but strong way.

I cannot hope to debate to a level which a lot of you do .

But at the same time just cannot grasp why you all do not see the repeating of the same old shite.

 

It reaffirms my position of national sovereignty and that the actions of our government have been illegal.

 

And that our allies have been guilty of law breaking on an industrial scale.

 

But all this excused .

[jake]

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's only you who is placing full emphasis on a so-called foreign influence to establish the war.     None of that is accepted fact,  only your opinion.

 

100 %

 

And my opinion is all I can give.

 

[Victorian]

Jake,   you're a complete delusional.     Your engrained prejudice against all MSM sources causes you to source your information elsewhere.     Because,  to you,   all MSM information is false,    your alternatives must be true and therefore accepted facts.     This means you mistake your opinions and versions of the truth as facts.    

 

You may believe you can employ precisely the same argument to those who prefer to source their news from mainly MSM sources but the crucial difference is that you're arguing with people who retain enough scepticism and caution to be able to differentiate between that which is fact and that which is suggestion.     A milder and more controlled strain of scepticism.

[jake]

12 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Alarmingly, I think he's completely sober right now. 

Well I suppose I should thank you for that.

There's no doubt I have issues.

 

But in general I'm consistent.

 

I admit I am a bit of a fek up.

 

That does not detract from my argument.

So a big fek you to those that hold it against me.

[jake]

Just now, Victorian said:

Jake,   you're a complete delusional.     Your engrained prejudice against all MSM sources causes you to source your information elsewhere.     Because,  to you,   all MSM information is false,    your alternatives must be true and therefore accepted facts.     This means you mistake your opinions and versions of the truth as facts.    

 

You may believe you can employ precisely the same argument to those who prefer to source their news from mainly MSM sources but the crucial difference is that you're arguing with people who retain enough scepticism and caution to be able to differentiate between that which is fact and that which is suggestion.     A milder and more controlled strain of scepticism.

I could use the same argument in reverse.

[Victorian]

Just now, jake said:

I could use the same argument in reverse.

 

You could.   

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

And I have to say that Syria has for a long time affected me in a futile but strong way.

 

Don't you think we care too? Don't you think we see this horrendous war and the hideous human catastrophe it's created and wish we could do more, our government could do much more, wish for some way to end the bloodshed?

 

And by the way, I agree: international law was broken by us on Friday night. But international law is also what's enabled Assad to continually use chemical weapons on his people with Russian backing; and the conflict to go on for so long. So international law is part of the problem. It's an ass. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Don't you think we care too? Don't you think we see this horrendous war and the hideous human catastrophe it's created and wish we could do more, our government could do much more, wish for some way to end the bloodshed?

 

And by the way, I agree: international law was broken by us on Friday night. But international law is also what's enabled Assad to continually use chemical weapons on his people with Russian backing; and the conflict to go on for so long. So international law is part of the problem. It's an ass. 

 

I say international law is a ass,  sir.     Snorted Mr Bumble.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

I admit I am a bit of a fek up.

 

This is Kickback. You're in very good company on that score. Primus inter pares.  

[shaun.lawson]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Jake,   you're a complete delusional.  

 

Just as an aside, I have infinitely more time for Jake than Nibs. Nibs is away with the fairies. Jake's well meaning, really cares about all this and occasionally gets it slightly right. Heart's in the right place basically.

Edited April 17, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[shaun.lawson]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I say international law is a ass,  sir.     Snorted Mr Bumble.

 

He always got the best lines  

[deesidejambo]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Just as an aside, I have infinitely more time for Jake than Nibs. Nibs is away with the fairies. Jake's well meaning, really cares about all this and occasionally gets it slightly right. Heart's in the right place basically.

Agreed.

 

but Jake - the reason people post is to inform, enlighten, and debate or challenge with others.

 

You can’t meet these objectives if your posts are gobbledegook.  Could you maybe try to take a few seconds before posting and before hitting the button re-read what you’ve written to check it makes sense.

 

just a suggestion.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

He always got the best lines  

Mr Bumble for UK ambassador to the UN.    

[Victorian]

The other one should be waking up any minute.     

[jake]

I'd like to ask those that wish for rebel control of Syria what they think that will deliver.

And I'd like to ask why they think that might concern Russia.

 

I'd like to know what they think the Lybian people feel about US intervention in their country.

 

I wonder how a guy like me in Iraq feels now after our interference.

 

I'd like to know why we don't intervene if our argument is moral in other conflicts.

 

And that's the truth .

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

7 minutes ago, jake said:

I'd like to ask those that wish for rebel control of Syria

 

Who? I don't think anyone on this thread does - do they?

 

As for Libya (note the spelling) and Iraq - I completely agree with you, and imagine most on here do. 

[niblick1874]

 

John McCain's quiet little jaunt to Syria.

 

 

 

[Sraman]

9 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The OPCW still haven't been given access to the alleged site in Douma, the reason given is that the road isn't safe as it hasn't been cleared of mines, that didn't seem to bother the Syrians/Russians when they bused in journalists just the other day or so.  The OPCW have been told they might get access tomorrow, maybe.

 

It's fine saying you'd rather wait until the OPCW had completed their investigations, but what if they are continually fobbed off and prevented from accessing the site, what do you do then?

 

 

Why don't they wait for Assad to invite them in? Just like they waited until Teresa invited them to have a wee tour of Porton Down?

 

They are extremely busy doncha know? They don't have people waiting at the other end of a telephone ready to drop everything and go to wherever they are needed, or so I was told earlier in the thread.

 

Anyway, a quick summary of where we are:

 

Novichok is rubbish, it doesnae work.

 

Naebody knows what has been dropped on Syria apart from the people who dropped it.

 

Some daftie is waiting on a Dr. he has already discredited releasing his autopsy notes to prove or disprove what has or has not been dropped on Syria.

 

Even more dafties are still believing everything they are told by our Govt. and also think that our Prime Minister should have the right to be a dictator. Act first, discuss later. Yay Democracy!

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

34 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The other one should be waking up any minute.     

 

Yup.  

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

FAO Jake:

 

- Peaceful protests begin during Arab Spring

 

- Assad's forces fire upon and slaughter protesters, igniting civil war

 

- Assad releases from jail the worst, most evil prisoners in the country, in order to taint the opposition with extremism

 

- Extremists begin slaughtering opposition

 

- War intensifies with Iran and Hezbollah helping and arming Assad; Saudis and Gulf states helping and arming opposition

 

- Jihadis flood in from Turkey and Chechnya

 

- US and UK begin arming opposition

 

- Many of these arms find their way to extremists

 

- Moderate opposition begins to hollow out and collapse

 

- US, UK and France fail to take action against Assad's use of chemical weapons

 

- Daesh/ISIS form, moving into and threatening much of Iraq

 

- US and UK start bombing Daesh in Iraq

 

- Russia takes advantage of vacuum by getting heavily involved on Assad's side

 

- Turkey bombs Kurdish areas of Syria

 

- Russia attacks mostly non-Daesh opposition and slaughters horrendous numbers of civilians

 

- US and UK extend bombing of Daesh into Syria

 

- Daesh collapses; opposition generally in retreat

 

- Assad keeps using chemical weapons

 

- US, UK and France bomb in order to diminish his ability to use those weapons

 

A civil war, with many international pipelines. When it ends, it'll be won by either Assad or the opposition. That is to say: by one Syrian side, or another.

 

Assad will win. The opposition lost when Daesh moved in and Russia used it as a reason to intervene.

 

Assad and the Syrian Ba'ath party will run Syria for sometime.

 

The thing to do now is shape his victory. A negotiated settlement is needed. That and the removal of Syria's chemical arsenal.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Assad will win.

 

Undoubtedly. But as regards a viable political settlement, I've never seen any alternative other than partition. 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Why don't they wait for Assad to invite them in? Just like they waited until Teresa invited them to have a wee tour of Porton Down?

 

They are extremely busy doncha know? They don't have people waiting at the other end of a telephone ready to drop everything and go to wherever they are needed, or so I was told earlier in the thread.

 

Anyway, a quick summary of where we are:

 

Novichok is rubbish, it doesnae work.

 

Naebody knows what has been dropped on Syria apart from the people who dropped it.

 

Some daftie is waiting on a Dr. he has already discredited releasing his autopsy notes to prove or disprove what has or has not been dropped on Syria.

 

Even more dafties are still believing everything they are told by our Govt. and also think that our Prime Minister should have the right to be a dictator. Act first, discuss later. Yay Democracy!

 

 

But we believe we are right.

So did Tony after he prayed with George.

 

Yet here we are .

And slagging of a right wing clown for not invading.

 

Gullible

[jake]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Undoubtedly. But as regards a viable political settlement, I've never seen any alternative other than partition. 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt ???????..

 

You mean like Ireland.

 

Are you advocating divide and rule.

 

 

[jake]

5 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Assad will win. The opposition lost when Daesh moved in and Russia used it as a reason to intervene.

 

Assad and the Syrian Ba'ath party will run Syria for sometime.

 

The thing to do now is shape his victory. A negotiated settlement is needed. That and the removal of Syria's chemical arsenal.

Thank fek for the Russians then or do you believe the alternative .

 

 

[jake]

Partition?

 

Perhaps we should just create wars all over the place to divide and rule.

 

It's never been a policy of the past has it?

[jake]

Honestly .

 

[Sraman]

Now that we have lost the war let's set the terms for Assad's victory??

 

If only we'd known it worked like that, our grandfather's could have stayed at home.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt ???????..

 

You mean like Ireland.

 

Are you advocating divide and rule.

 

 

 

Not at all. A great deal of Syria's problem is the same as Iraq's problem. Both are unwieldy states forced together by Britain and France after World War 1, completely ignoring myriad tribal and ethnic differences.

 

The unwieldy nature of both is what's necessitated 'strong men' like Saddam Hussein or Assad and his Dad holding them together by force - but in the end, that's never a sustainable answer. 

 

Iraq is effectively three countries masquerading as one. Syria's at least two. If you have states whose people have nothing in common with each other - who hate each other even in peacetime - you have a major problem. And one of the solutions involves the West supporting a long overdue independent Kurdish state. 

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, jake said:

Please feel free to debunk the age old tactic of demonizing a leader.

 

Please feel free to debunk the popularity of a leader pre 2011.

Please feel free to tell me how this Arab spring affected our allies in the region.

 

 

 

Assad is and was a dictator. Like his dad. Like Hussein. Like Ghaddafi. Like the House of Saud. Like Nasser and his successors in Egypt. Like Erdrogan is headed in Turkey. Like Putin.

 

The elections and polls behind these people is largely a mirage. 

 

Do you honestly believe people get 90 odd per cent of a vote?

 

The issue is these dictators are good at keeping order. Iraq was a leading nation in the region until the Iran-Iraq War.  Afghanistan a jewel of modernity until it's civil war and the Soviet invasion. Syria peaceful and tolerant till now.

 

Issue is these nations also repressed peoples. Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were brutally suppressed with the pro-democracy movement. Anti-Ba'ath party activists in Syria and Iraq were repressed. Ghaddafi had opponents jailed and killed and was looking to raise Benghazi to the ground. Saddam butchered his nation - Marsh Arabs wiped out, Kurds gassed, opponents killed, jailed and persecuted.

 

None of these people are nice. But your question in a later post is pertinent, does your average Iraqi care now? I am unsure if he'd go back to the days of the secret police but certainly they need support to rebuild. 

 

Our legacy is bad. We need to do a lot to assist rebuilding these countries. But that doesn't negate the fact tge regimes in these places were awful and repressive. Brutalists who cared for little more than their own power. Assad's use of chemical weapons, of indiscriminate bombing shows this. 

 

I'd just rather whilst we said that we cut off bomb sales to Saudi Arabia at the same time.

[JamboX2]

14 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Undoubtedly. But as regards a viable political settlement, I've never seen any alternative other than partition. 

 

Sadly Shaun that's a pipedream. The Iraqis will oppose it because of their Kurdish problems. As will the Turks. The Israelis won't want 2 weakened states to it's north. Jordan and Iran will want a stable neighbour. That's before you get to the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia who won't rest till the Assads are gone.

 

It'll be Assad's victory. Best the west can hope for is Russia stays to stabilise what's left of Syria once Assad wins. He hasn't the strength to run it without them now. Note a lot of the reports say the Russians  (not Syria) are preventing OPCW travel to Douma. Added to that is a concession he gives up his chemical weapons for good.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

Best the west can hope for is Russia stays to stabilise what's left of Syria once Assad wins.

 

Agree.

[JamboX2]

10 minutes ago, Sraman said:

Now that we have lost the war let's set the terms for Assad's victory??

 

If only we'd known it worked like that, our grandfather's could have stayed at home.

 

The West lost the whole Arab Spring let alone Syria.

 

Time to accept Assad will be in power. But he needs brought to the table before his win turns into a purge. Seizing his party's foreign $5bn assets would be a start. Then move onto removing his chemical weapons capabilities.

 

Sadly I can't ever see a trial at the Hague ala the Break up of Yugoslavia here.

[JamboX2]

20 minutes ago, jake said:

Thank fek for the Russians then or do you believe the alternative .

 

I think the Russians have overstepped the mark. Massively. Their bombing has been indiscriminate and their obstruction on investigations over chemical weapons is a betrayal of the UN Charter. 

 

But this is a newly assertive Russia. Crimea, Georgia, murdered journalists, Ukraine, repression of opposition at home, the persecution of minorities and the LGBT community at home... so I dunno if I think it's great.

 

Russia has historically - back to the USSR - backed Syria. It provides a naval base on the Mediterranean for the Russian navy. So it's again self interest by Russia more than Russia to the rescue.