Poisoned Russian spy.

[Space Mackerel]

27 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

The Russian and Syrian forces were bombing so heavily that the children couldn't breathe. What is the point you're making?

 

Are you for real? You do know that there’s a lot of dust created when an urban environment gets bombed or shelled, last time I checked, dust makes you cough and sneeze. 

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

That's the stock response to anyone posting an emoticon without any accompanying comment.    Why's that?     Think this legitimises the horseshit in your crap links?

 

Crap links lolol, they’re better than your responses for sure. 

 

How about discussing the topic, like you’re meant to do on here instead of working yourself up a rage in your house? 

[Thunderstruck]

33 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

The Russian and Syrian forces were bombing so heavily that the children couldn't breathe. What is the point you're making?

 

It’s not like they haven’t had much practice and Russia seems to be less than bothered about collateral damage - their “precision targeting” is anything but; they would be doing well to hit the correct postcode. Another reason why not get shouldn’t have been using toxic weapons. 

 

The link below is about 18 months old but Syria and Russia haven’t let up in the meantime (other than a couple of “cease-fires”). 

 

The mentioned sources (eg Airwars) give useful information. It is distasteful to convert deaths to tables of statistics but it gives a flavour of who is doing what to who. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/reality-check/2016/oct/12/reality-check-are-us-led-airstrikes-on-syrians-as-bad-as-russias

Edited April 16, 2018 by Thunderstruck

[Space Mackerel]

Is this a school play? Is it a practice? Is it propaganda? It’s the Free Syrian Army flag in this video, they’re an offshoot of the regular army who oppose Assad? 

 

Whats going on here? 

 

 

[deesidejambo]

To me it’s aimple.    Surely there will be autopsies to determine cause of death and I expect they can tell the difference between dust in the lungs and chlorine poisoning.

 

once they do that either the U.K. and US Govts will be laughing stocks.

 

Or Space Mackeral will.

 

We we await the outcome

[Space Mackerel]

Full Robert Fisk story is online now for those genuinely interested.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, deesidejambo said:

once they do that either the U.K. and US Govts will be laughing stocks.

 

Or Space Mackeral will.

 

That's the same Space Mackerel who denies Sandy Hook?

 

I know who my money's on tbh. 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, deesidejambo said:

To me it’s aimple.    Surely there will be autopsies to determine cause of death and I expect they can tell the difference between dust in the lungs and chlorine poisoning.

 

once they do that either the U.K. and US Govts will be laughing stocks.

 

Or Space Mackeral will.

 

We we await the outcome

 

Ive never said it was one or the other, I’ve always said wait and see what develops. 

Al I’ve done is critique the posters on here who rush to judgement because “they’ve seen it on the tele” mate. 

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Full Robert Fisk story is online now for those genuinely interested.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

 

It is, in all fairness, well worth reading this, and maintaining an entirely open mind. 

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's the same Space Mackerel who denies Sandy Hook?

 

I know who my money's on tbh. 

 

Ive never denied that either, there’s certain questions arise from ithe official narrative, just like this and that other thing, oh aye, The Chilcot Report you know, forgotten about that already?

[deesidejambo]

9 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's the same Space Mackerel who denies Sandy Hook?

 

I know who my money's on tbh. 

It’s the one who says the Pentagon was hit by a missile full of dead bodies.

 

But indeed time will tell.    If it turns out Spacey is right then May must resign and it’s Spacey for PM!

[shaun.lawson]

13 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Ive never denied that either, there’s certain questions arise from ithe official narrative

 

Why is it that the worst, most wretched conspiracy theorists always:

 

a] Lie

 

b] Can't spell?

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why is it that the worst, most wretched conspiracy theorists always:

 

a] Lie

 

b] Can't spell?

 

 

 

Like I just said, the official narrative wasn’t real or had questions to be answered.

 

Your turning into a bit a bit of a Victorian kinda character, let it go man, it’s not healthy.

 

Back to Syria now and the thread topic

[jake]

29 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Full Robert Fisk story is online now for those genuinely interested.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

It's all been there .

All the time .

 

And yet the electorate of this country still swallow what they are told without evidence.

And dismiss those that do as being somehow gullible.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Like I just said, the official narrative wasn’t real or had questions to be answered.

 

Your turning into a bit a bit of a Victorian kinda character, let it go man, it’s not healthy.

 

Back to Syria now and the thread topic

 

The problem's simple. When posters like you deny Sandy Hook (which I consider one step below denying the Holocaust), then lie about having denied it, it means your points on other issues are instinctively ignored. An unfortunate state of affairs - because you might well be raising important points on those other issues.

 

Perhaps if you weren't so quick to don the tinfoil, shove clothes pegs up your nose, and cry "wibble" on so many things, people might take you more seriously. 

[deesidejambo]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

It's all been there .

All the time .

 

And yet the electorate of this country still swallow what they are told without evidence.

And dismiss those that do as being somehow gullible.

 

 

Again it will be down to the autopsies.

 

You and Spacey credibility is on the line.

 

If he gets the PM job you can be Foreign Secretary

[jake]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Like I just said, the official narrative wasn’t real or had questions to be answered.

 

Your turning into a bit a bit of a Victorian kinda character, let it go man, it’s not healthy.

 

Back to Syria now and the thread topic

Yeah I noticed that.

You post independent on the ground account .

Former Head of British armed forces called this charade out.

 

 

And what answer do you get.

 

Another topic .

 

Cannae handle it Space that's why they try to pull you on other stuff.

[jake]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The problem's simple. When posters like you deny Sandy Hook (which I consider one step below denying the Holocaust), then lie about having denied it, it means your points on other issues are instinctively ignored. An unfortunate state of affairs - because you might well be raising important points on those other issues.

 

Perhaps if you weren't so quick to don the tinfoil, shove clothes pegs up your nose, and cry "wibble" on so many things, people might take you more seriously. 

Perhaps if you just stayed on topic and didn't play the man instead of the ball .

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Half of Westminster have appeared on RT.

 

Craig Murray is deemed as a fruitcake because he doesn’t conform. The man gave up everything rather than having his principles undermined. He’s a better man than you.

 

He's been, how shall I put this, radicalised. He was appalled at the behaviour of the British state while he worked for it; had plenty of interesting things to say after he left; but has since morphed into an absurdly simplistic, dangerous apologist for more or less anything anti-British. 

 

I don't doubt that his life won't have been easy since first going so public in his contrarianism. But it's helped turn him into a raving maniac. 

[deesidejambo]

Just now, jake said:

Yeah I noticed that.

You post independent on the ground account .

Former Head of British armed forces called this charade out.

 

 

And what answer do you get.

 

Another topic .

 

Cannae handle it Space that's why they try to pull you on other stuff.

This post may come back to haunt you.

 

We await the OPCW report - it’s Jake and Spacey against May, Macron, and Trump.

 

 

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Yeah I noticed that.

You post independent on the ground account .

Former Head of British armed forces called this charade out.

 

 

And what answer do you get.

 

Another topic .

 

Cannae handle it Space that's why they try to pull you on other stuff.

Remember that Buzzfeed article that you were asked to read and refused?

 

Well have a guess what happened tonight regarding it.....Go on guess without using google.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Perhaps if you just stayed on topic and didn't play the man instead of the ball .

 

 

 

Fair enough. Have you heard that independent eyewitness account which proves this is all a set-up? It's from Bashar al-Assad. 

[jake]

1 minute ago, deesidejambo said:

Again it will be down to the autopsies.

 

You and Spacey credibility is on the line.

 

If he gets the PM job you can be Foreign Secretary

My credibility means absolutely fek all.

 

What means something is the ability of us as a democracy to put a stop to this .

 

Doubtful to be honest.

We just went along with made up shit to sanction the illegal bombing of a nation state.

 

My credibility is neither here nor there.

 

 

[jake]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

He's been, how shall I put this, radicalised. He was appalled at the behaviour of the British state while he worked for it; had plenty of interesting things to say after he left; but has since morphed into an absurdly simplistic, dangerous apologist for more or less anything anti-British. 

 

I don't doubt that his life won't have been easy since first going so public in his contrarianism. But it's helped turn him into a raving maniac. 

My god.

 

Are you a troll working for someone?

 

 

Wow you have either lost it or being paid to talk shit.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

We just went along with made up shit

 

Prove it.

[jake]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Fair enough. Have you heard that independent eyewitness account which proves this is all a set-up? It's from Bashar al-Assad. 

No but I've seen reports on the Tele whose sources are anti Assad.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Remember that Buzzfeed article that you were asked to read and refused?

 

Well have a guess what happened tonight regarding it.....Go on guess without using google.

 

What did happen?

[deesidejambo]

1 minute ago, jake said:

My credibility means absolutely fek all.

 

What means something is the ability of us as a democracy to put a stop to this .

 

Doubtful to be honest.

We just went along with made up shit to sanction the illegal bombing of a nation state.

 

My credibility is neither here nor there.

 

 

It’s for others to decide on your credibility based on the veracity of your posts. 

[jake]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Prove it.

The burden of proof is not mine but the government that represents me.

 

I'm not convinced .

 

It's for them to prove before they bomb in my name.

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, deesidejambo said:

It’s for others to decide on your credibility based on the veracity of your posts. 

Decide away.

 

 

[jake]

7 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Remember that Buzzfeed article that you were asked to read and refused?

 

Well have a guess what happened tonight regarding it.....Go on guess without using google.

Off topic

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

What did happen?

It was nominated for a Pulitzer.

 

I would want to read something like that.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

Off topic

 

 

The topic of this thread is "Poisoned Russian spy". The Buzzfeed article you were asked but refused to read is about Russia murdering its own and British citizens on British soil.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Off topic

Have a look at the thread title Jake.

 

Oh and don't try to moderate the forum.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Notts1874 said:

It was nominated for a Pulitzer.

 

I would want to read something like that.

 

But Jake - despite his never-ending desire to inform all of us - doesn't want to inform himself. Go figure.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

But Jake - despite his never-ending desire to inform all of us - doesn't want to inform himself. Go figure.

I gave up a long time ago. Certainly thought it was worth bringing to his attention though.

[JamboX2]

6 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

He’s on the ground as well and has no horse in the race, I’m more inclined to believe what he says over anyone in Westminster.

 

There’s too many people in this country that’ll willingly bend over upon receiving an instruction from their southern masters.

 

We’re a country of cowardly sheep.

 

Your post proves the point Shaun made on Craig Murray. Like him your political bias is enforcing one view of things and you are elevating sources which feed your view over a balanced assessment to the contrary. This is closed tunnel reasoning and is seen with a lot of the recent political phenomena we have seen of late with Trump's rise, Brexit, Independence and others globally - AfD, Orban and Macron's sudden breach of traditional French politics. Southern masters etc can take a run and jump as it's Scottish exceptionalist nonsense. 

 

As for Syria: the Fisk article should be read and considered. Added to this I agree Fisk is a generally reliable source on the happenings of the Middle East. But it should be noted that journalists don't always get it right and like it or not our government will have operated on intelligence it holds.

 

My fear is that the justification needed to dispell the nonsense we see from Jake and Spacey had not been gotten as the OPCW have not had time. Chilcott noted that Hans Blix and the UN inspections over Iraq were too readily ignored. Again we see similar. 

 

Their investigations are continuing and like Salisbury I think they will confirm many western suspicions. But once that is achieved we must then act. Not before. 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It is, in all fairness, well worth reading this, and maintaining an entirely open mind. 

 

It's hardly definitive proof as Spacey, Jake and Hunky would have us think. An excellent summary of the situation but one which is in no way definitive. For one the doctor he quotes:

 

"the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm..."

 

A fair account, but note:

 

"...As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eye witness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?"

 

And then...

 

"...the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks."

 

So Fisk has spoken to none of the doctors on duty on the night and one who wasn't. 

 

If anything Fisk's article does not cancel out the Western narrative. But it shows how thick on the ground the fog of war is. He repeatedly refers to OPCW and UN bodies investigating claims. If anything it's a plea to abide by due process. But not a definitive proof of no chemical weapon usage.

[JamboX2]

3 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

It's not closed tunnel reasoning.  It would be if I was relying solely on individuals such as Murray for my news/information.  I know where you're coming from, but you're entirely incorrect.

 

The MSM has formed a uniform opinion on most matters, reading blogs, or watching independent media sources counters this and provides me with discourse on both sides.  This approach enables me to determine what I want to believe.  I've changed my political stance, which indicates I'm not as brainwashed as you suggest.  

 

Southern masters though... just a glib throughaway remark then? Those who disagree with you are equally not a brainwashed mob.

 

I think some care needs to be taken with bloggers like Murray or newer media sources. Some of it is poorly sourced, overly partisan and lacking in reality. 

 

We can all take a punch at MSM. But frankly you still don't get better than the reporting in broadsheet papers or well run sites. C4, BBC, Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Post, New York Times, New Yorker, Politico and Buzzfeed have had much more points of note to say than most.

 

In defence of some of their journalists I see the BBC's John Simpson was one if a very few western journalists today to note the unusual fall to his death from a balcony that Russian correspondent Maxim Borodin suffered yesterday. He'd been covering and investigating Russian involvement in Syria and Assad's use of mercenaries.

[felix]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As for Syria: the Fisk article should be read and considered. Added to this I agree Fisk is a generally reliable source on the happenings of the Middle East. But it should be noted that journalists don't always get it right and like it or not our government will have operated on intelligence it holds.

 

Think that's the problem .

The government seems to have acted on poor intelligence from Salisbury and no intelligence from Duoma.

[deesidejambo]

3 hours ago, felix said:

Think that's the problem .

The government seems to have acted on poor intelligence from Salisbury and no intelligence from Duoma.

I’m not sure that’s the case, but it would help if they published the intelligence they based their decisions on.

 

for example Macron claims he has proof of chemical attack in Douma.     Let’s see it then.    

[deesidejambo]

8 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Southern masters though... just a glib throughaway remark then? Those who disagree with you are equally not a brainwashed mob.

 

I think some care needs to be taken with bloggers like Murray or newer media sources. Some of it is poorly sourced, overly partisan and lacking in reality. 

 

We can all take a punch at MSM. But frankly you still don't get better than the reporting in broadsheet papers or well run sites. C4, BBC, Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Post, New York Times, New Yorker, Politico and Buzzfeed have had much more points of note to say than most.

 

In defence of some of their journalists I see the BBC's John Simpson was one if a very few western journalists today to note the unusual fall to his death from a balcony that Russian correspondent Maxim Borodin suffered yesterday. He'd been covering and investigating Russian involvement in Syria and Assad's use of mercenaries.

Indeed I’m surprised that the, ahem, suicide of the reporter is not more widely reported 

[deesidejambo]

8 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Your post proves the point Shaun made on Craig Murray. Like him your political bias is enforcing one view of things and you are elevating sources which feed your view over a balanced assessment to the contrary. This is closed tunnel reasoning and is seen with a lot of the recent political phenomena we have seen of late with Trump's rise, Brexit, Independence and others globally - AfD, Orban and Macron's sudden breach of traditional French politics. Southern masters etc can take a run and jump as it's Scottish exceptionalist nonsense. 

 

As for Syria: the Fisk article should be read and considered. Added to this I agree Fisk is a generally reliable source on the happenings of the Middle East. But it should be noted that journalists don't always get it right and like it or not our government will have operated on intelligence it holds.

 

My fear is that the justification needed to dispell the nonsense we see from Jake and Spacey had not been gotten as the OPCW have not had time. Chilcott noted that Hans Blix and the UN inspections over Iraq were too readily ignored. Again we see similar. 

 

Their investigations are continuing and like Salisbury I think they will confirm many western suspicions. But once that is achieved we must then act. Not before. 

Yup.   The Fisk report show up the bias of those who have chosen to believe it.

 

if a reporter on the ground had said he had spoken to someone  who was not an eyewitness and was a supporter of the rebels but had said it was a chemical attack, he would be laughed at by certain posters.    But as it’s the other way round it’s treated differently as it confirms preconceived positions.

 

but anyway, i trust the medical causes of death will be definitive and then everyone can stop speculating.

 

it is a concern however that the OPCW were not allowed in but a journalist was.

[SE16 3LN]

12 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Are you for real? You do know that there’s a lot of dust created when an urban environment gets bombed or shelled, last time I checked, dust makes you cough and sneeze. 

That's not what you're best journalist friend says though is it? Are we to take him seriously or not? Or do you just want to throw more shite at the UK govt. and don't really care how many Syrian children are killed. Oh, and dust kills people every day, even without bombing.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

Yup.   The Fisk report show up the bias of those who have chosen to believe it.

 

if a reporter on the ground had said he had spoken to someone  who was not an eyewitness and was a supporter of the rebels but had said it was a chemical attack, he would be laughed at by certain posters.    But as it’s the other way round it’s treated differently as it confirms preconceived positions.

 

but anyway, i trust the medical causes of death will be definitive and then everyone can stop speculating.

 

it is a concern however that the OPCW were not allowed in but a journalist was.

 

The fact Fisk notes this in his article suggests to me Fisk's intent is not to discredit Western opinions but to actually show how bad the situation on the ground is.

 

We should remember that Syria is preventing OPCW access. Not the other way around.

 

Frankly this hammers home a lot of issues;

 

1. Western views on Russia's obstruction of the Security Council.

2. Syria's failure to co-operate with certain investigations.

3. A rashness of acting by Western Powers before OPCW investigations had happened.

[deesidejambo]

13 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The fact Fisk notes this in his article suggests to me Fisk's intent is not to discredit Western opinions but to actually show how bad the situation on the ground is.

 

We should remember that Syria is preventing OPCW access. Not the other way around.

 

Frankly this hammers home a lot of issues;

 

1. Western views on Russia's obstruction of the Security Council.

2. Syria's failure to co-operate with certain investigations.

3. A rashness of acting by Western Powers before OPCW investigations had happened.

It’s the 3rd point that concerns me.

 

Why could they not have waited till the investigation was done?     But France say they have proof.    So let’s see it M Macron

[jumpship]

37 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

It’s the 3rd point that concerns me.

 

Why could they not have waited till the investigation was done?     But France say they have proof.    So let’s see it M Macron

 

I'm really beginning to think the whole of Westminster is a complete shambles. 

Brexit has them all confused so they needed something huge to distract the pleb voters. 

Trump is a joke and his popularity has plummeted, nothing bring America together  better than a war.

No sure about France though. 

[Space Mackerel]

Seems like a wee tin pot Irish radio station can get an interview with Mr Fisk but none in the MSM UK can. Weird likes. 

 

Interesting point made made right at the end when he’s cut off too. 

 

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44130/17th_April_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_1/

 

[JamboX2]

30 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Seems like a wee tin pot Irish radio station can get an interview with Mr Fisk but none in the MSM UK can. Weird likes. 

 

Interesting point made made right at the end when he’s cut off too. 

 

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44130/17th_April_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_1/

 

 

CIA called the station.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, jumpship said:

 

I'm really beginning to think the whole of Westminster is a complete shambles. 

Brexit has them all confused so they needed something huge to distract the pleb voters. 

Trump is a joke and his popularity has plummeted, nothing bring America together  better than a war.

No sure about France though. 

 

There's no conspiracy. It just seems as though they've decided to act quickly.

 

Rather they'd wait for OPCW investigations but the idea this is some huge conspiracy doesn't hold up.