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Rab87

Poisoned Russian spy.

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Rab87

Senior UK police officer Mark Rowley has confirmed that a police first responder is in a serious condition. 

 

A nerve agent was used, and such a substance could only be made in a handful of labs around the world. 

 

Serious escalation if a UK police officer is affeted in my opinion. 

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Mikey1874

Treating it as attempted murder, targeted attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter. 

 

People have said targeting his daughter is unusual but other relatives have already died in possibly suspicious circumstances. 

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Dunks

Ch4 News worth a watch tonight.

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Dannie Boy

Not good at all.

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Peebo

Doubt there will be serious escalation. Barring a few sanctions being chucked about, Russia effectively does what it wants, with impunity. 

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Rab87
6 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Doubt there will be serious escalation. Barring a few sanctions being chucked about, Russia effectively does what it wants, with impunity. 

I would tend to agree, but I think a British police officer being involved changes things quite a bit. Especially if they end up dead. 

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Victorian
4 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Doubt there will be serious escalation. Barring a few sanctions being chucked about, Russia effectively does what it wants, with impunity. 

Which is pretty much one of the reasons why they've done it.    Show of strength / capability.     Defect to the west if you want... this is what will happen.

 

It's pretty serious that someone could smuggle in VX or Sarin.     Another motive for Russia.     Testing UK resilience.

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Mikey1874
10 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Doubt there will be serious escalation. Barring a few sanctions being chucked about, Russia effectively does what it wants, with impunity. 

 

3 minutes ago, Rab87 said:

I would tend to agree, but I think a British police officer being involved changes things quite a bit. Especially if they end up dead. 

 

Both good points

 

And I'd suggest it is most likely all 3 will die 

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Dannie Boy
43 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Doubt there will be serious escalation. Barring a few sanctions being chucked about, Russia effectively does what it wants, with impunity. 

 

Very true. Chemical attacks in Syria backed by the Russians and what’s happened? Nothing 

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Jambo-Jimbo
58 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Treating it as attempted murder, targeted attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter. 

 

People have said targeting his daughter is unusual but other relatives have already died in possibly suspicious circumstances. 

 

Yes, his son died in a car accident whilst on holiday to Russia.

His wife died from cancer.

 

And this what I find strange, his daughter lives in Moscow, works in Moscow but has also worked in the UK, well I would have thought Russia would be the last place he'd want his son to holiday in and his daughter to live and work in as well.

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Dannie Boy
21 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yes, his son died in a car accident whilst on holiday to Russia.

His wife died from cancer.

 

And this what I find strange, his daughter lives in Moscow, works in Moscow but has also worked in the UK, well I would have thought Russia would be the last place he'd want his son to holiday in and his daughter to live and work in as well.

 

I think we’ll find there’s more to this than simple revenge by the Russian state. Some news outlets reporting he may well have still be active. 

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Ibrahim Tall
1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Which is pretty much one of the reasons why they've done it.    Show of strength / capability.     Defect to the west if you want... this is what will happen.

 

It's pretty serious that someone could smuggle in VX or Sarin.     Another motive for Russia.     Testing UK resilience.

 

Probably isn’t that difficult to be honest, it only takes a minuscule about of VX to kill so there wouldn’t be much to hide.  Assuming the Russians did it there’s also the possibility it came in via unchecked ‘diplomatic’ luggage. 

 

 

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Victorian
1 minute ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

Probably isn’t that difficult to be honest, it only takes a minuscule about of VX to kill so there wouldn’t be much to hide.  Assuming the Russians did it there’s also the possibility it came in via unchecked ‘diplomatic’ luggage. 

 

 

Oh it's not difficult.    Serious.     The diplomatic 'pouch' route would constitute a very serious breach and can only result in a full diplomatic breakdown.    But even via an unknown agent would surely be troublesome to MI5.     

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Judge Fudge

With Trump drumming up business for hostility going forward towards North Korea, Russia and possibly China. Could this be another Mi6 false flag operation?

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Victorian

It only takes a microscopic amount of nerve agent to kill.     So much so that it makes it quite curious as to how exactly it was delivered and how the police officer has ingested it,  yet no apparent ingestion by the restaurant staff.

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Mikey1874
Just now, Judge Fudge said:

With Trump drumming up business for hostility going forward towards North Korea, Russia and possibly China. Could this be another Mi6 false flag operation?

 

Take it you don't mean these guys are fit and well and not in hospital?

 

A nerve agent is something very few people are capable of delivering.

 

Its being investigated. No one has been accused. That's speculation. 

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Normthebarman
Posted (edited)

There's every chance it could be personal. An awful lot of Russian agents were compromised when he gave away their identities. 

 

I'm sure I heard that security services tend to see the matter as closed when there is a swap deal like happened with him. Apparently it's seen as just not sporting to target a spy that was swapped. 

Edited by Normthebarman

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Mikey1874
1 minute ago, Victorian said:

It only takes a microscopic amount of nerve agent to kill.     So much so that it makes it quite curious as to how exactly it was delivered and how the police officer has ingested it,  yet no apparent ingestion by the restaurant staff.

 

Mouth to mouth resuscitation?

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Victorian
Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

Mouth to mouth resuscitation?

Right enough, they were found outside.    Mouth to mouth Is possible.

 

It's still curious as to how it was delivered given that they clearly haven't ingested enough to be killed,  yet.

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Ibrahim Tall
3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Right enough, they were found outside.    Mouth to mouth Is possible.

 

It's still curious as to how it was delivered given that they clearly haven't ingested enough to be killed,  yet.

 

Sprayed in the face while walking? IIRC, that’s how NK used theirs. 

 

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Victorian
Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

Sprayed in the face while walking? IIRC, that’s how NK used theirs. 

 

Obvious to the victims though.    There seems to be no suggestion they were aware they had been attacked.     

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Judge Fudge
5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Take it you don't mean these guys are fit and well and not in hospital?

 

A nerve agent is something very few people are capable of delivering.

 

Its being investigated. No one has been accused. That's speculation. 

Not implying that, but the main stream media are all over this like a cheap suit accusing the Russians, without any evidence. This guy has worked closely with mi6 passing on info for years. Strikes me that we should be asking which intelligence service have more to protect by taking him out the game?

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Mikey1874

 

2 minutes ago, Judge Fudge said:

Not implying that, but the main stream media are all over this like a cheap suit accusing the Russians, without any evidence. This guy has worked closely with mi6 passing on info for years. Strikes me that we should be asking which intelligence service have more to protect by taking him out the game?

 

Yeah 

 

I see it as a media that loves drama and with 24 hour coverage latches onto these sort of stories

 

A bit of context is certainly helpful

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Geoff the Mince

If you speak out against Putin and his FSB lackies either expect to be jailed on trumped up charges or killed .

 

The guy and his entourage still act like spies even though they run Russia .

 

He doesn't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks ,

 

Anna Politkovskaya wrote a few damning books which she was muredered for .

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AlphonseCapone
1 hour ago, Normthebarman said:

There's every chance it could be personal. An awful lot of Russian agents were compromised when he gave away their identities. 

 

I'm sure I heard that security services tend to see the matter as closed when there is a swap deal like happened with him. Apparently it's seen as just not sporting to target a spy that was swapped. 

 

Aye I think this is being overlooked. The Russian state had ample opportunity to kill him did they not, why wait till he was in the UK?

 

If it was Russia, Britain will do nothing of consequence about it because they can't. Just like with Litvinenko.

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Seymour M Hersh

No sign of our favourite Commie?:interehjrling::nuke:::troll::

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Jambo-Jimbo
8 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Aye I think this is being overlooked. The Russian state had ample opportunity to kill him did they not, why wait till he was in the UK?

 

If it was Russia, Britain will do nothing of consequence about it because they can't. Just like with Litvinenko.

 

Agreed, why wait 8 years when they could have killed him oh so easily in prison, it just doesn't make sense.

 

I think there is much more to this than meets the eye.

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Judge Fudge

Another story today Britain can expect an easier brexit with Saudi financial backing. Just the kind of bullshit that would be surpassed with a more or less important story about an old jailbird Russian spy that has outstayed his welcome. I'm sure the queen and may will be outraged with this. Once their more important  meeting with Mohammed Bin Salman is done and dusted. Of course we should not be outraged with that? But that Putin, shocking?

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Riddley Walker

Let's face it, we'll never know what actually happened, regardless of what any official report says.

 

The UK and Russia have been involved in a propaganda Cold War for the last couple of decades.

 

 

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yabadabadoo1874again

...you would think that the days of swallowing any old story proffered from the BBC... hook line and sinker... were truly long gone...

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Mikey1874
1 minute ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

...you would think that the days of swallowing any old story proffered from the BBC... hook line and sinker... were truly long gone...

 

What do you believe has happened?

 

The guy and his daughter are having a laugh? The policeman just wanted to go to Wembley tonight? 

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Geoff the Mince
24 minutes ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

...you would think that the days of swallowing any old story proffered from the BBC... hook line and sinker... were truly long gone...

It's a news story on dozens of media outlets , what's the BBC got to do with it ? 

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John Findlay

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was the work of a western agency.

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Mac_fae_Gillie
11 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Agreed, why wait 8 years when they could have killed him oh so easily in prison, it just doesn't make sense.

 

I think there is much more to this than meets the eye.

One.. did they know his location earlier??

Two.. Russian election in few days time yet another Putin takes on the west and wins moment.. by using a NA it is like signing a signature to the attack but still denying it. Putin loves all the attacks on him from UK he laps it up makes him look stronger to his supporters.

Three.. those that think it may just be a rogue agent out for revenge why use such a complex attack?? not as if an agent can just walk into his local chemical warfare store sign out NA and not alert the Russians. He would be better off in a hit n run or gun attack..

 

After the Lenko' attack the UK knew who did it, yet even stood on a stage with Putin  praising the man as a hero of Russian they still deny it laughing at us. Its the game Putin plays his image matters to him within Russia not outside. 

In truth you betray your nation you take the risks, but if the daughter or others are hurt long term or god forbid die it will raise the stakes ten fold.

 

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Peebo
7 hours ago, John Findlay said:

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was the work of a western agency.

If that’s the case, what would be your suggested motive?

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Rab87
7 hours ago, John Findlay said:

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was the work of a western agency.

 

What makes you think this? You can't just throw things about like that without justifying your reasoning. 

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John Findlay
11 minutes ago, Peebo said:

If that’s the case, what would be your suggested motive?

Double agent. The USA not happy in that he gave their information to Motherwell Russia. All smoke and mirrors.

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Peebo
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Double agent. The USA not happy in that he gave their information to Motherwell Russia. All smoke and mirrors.

The idea that the US would poison someone at the moment because they gave information to Russia makes me chuckle.

 

Here’s hoping...:laugh:

Edited by Peebo

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John Findlay
6 minutes ago, Peebo said:

The idea that the US would poison someone at the moment because they gave information to Russia makes me chuckle.

 

Here’s hoping...:laugh:

When it comes to dirty tricks. The British wrote the book. It wouldn't be the first time we have done uncle Sam's dirty work for him.

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southcap
11 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Agreed, why wait 8 years when they could have killed him oh so easily in prison, it just doesn't make sense.

 

I think there is much more to this than meets the eye.

Because he was in prison, they were punishing him. In the eyes of Putin, once he got the prisoner exchange, he essentially get away with it.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/putin-threatened-russian-traitors-the-year-sergei-skripal-went-to-uk-2018-3

 

Quote

"Traitors will kick the bucket," Putin says in the video. "Trust me. These people betrayed their friends, their brothers in arms. Whatever they got in exchange for it, those thirty pieces silver they were given, they will choke on them.”

 

As much as Russia, in particular Putin, is utterly detestable, there isn't an intelligence agency worldwide that wouldn't want to see a double agent drop dead. Only a handful of nations are willing the pull the trigger though, Russia being one of them.

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Jambo-Jimbo
15 minutes ago, Mac_fae_Gillie said:

One.. did they know his location earlier??

Two.. Russian election in few days time yet another Putin takes on the west and wins moment.. by using a NA it is like signing a signature to the attack but still denying it. Putin loves all the attacks on him from UK he laps it up makes him look stronger to his supporters.

Three.. those that think it may just be a rogue agent out for revenge why use such a complex attack?? not as if an agent can just walk into his local chemical warfare store sign out NA and not alert the Russians. He would be better off in a hit n run or gun attack..

 

After the Lenko' attack the UK knew who did it, yet even stood on a stage with Putin  praising the man as a hero of Russian they still deny it laughing at us. Its the game Putin plays his image matters to him within Russia not outside. 

In truth you betray your nation you take the risks, but if the daughter or others are hurt long term or god forbid die it will raise the stakes ten fold.

 

 

He was living openly in Salisbury using his own name, he was even a member of a local Social Club, where everybody knew that he was Russian but didn't really know much about his past.

His daughter Yulia had also lived with the family in Salisbury before moving back to Moscow and she was a regular visitor to her father's house after that.

I'm pretty certain Russian Intelligence knew exactly where he was living, indeed anybody with more than a basic knowledge of investigative tools probably could have found out where he lived, as it's not like he had tried to hide it.

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
2 minutes ago, southcap said:

Because he was in prison, they were punishing him. In the eyes of Putin, once he got the prisoner exchange, he essentially get away with it.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/putin-threatened-russian-traitors-the-year-sergei-skripal-went-to-uk-2018-3

 

 

As much as Russia, in particular Putin, is utterly detestable, there isn't an intelligence agency worldwide that wouldn't want to see a double agent drop dead. Only a handful of nations are willing the pull the trigger though, Russia being one of them.

 

You surely aren't saying that the guy would have been safe in a Russian prison?

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southcap
1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You surely aren't saying that the guy would have been safe in a Russian prison?

No, but he was useful for the exact reason that came to be, he could be exchanged for folk Russia wanted.

 

As savage as Russia is, they are capable at looking at the bigger picture, he was valuable to them. Once he was gone, he was useless. 

 

I'd say he was, following a geopolitical path of least resistance, surplus to any useful requirements a long time ago.

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robbo1874

The manner of the way they've been dealt with seems odd. Very much a calling card style. 

Either the Russian service want to reinforce that no-one is safe if they go against them or someone is trying to frame this as a Russian attack when it isn't. 

I really wouldn't rule anything out in this murky world. 

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Victorian

Suggestion now seems to be it was neither sarin or VX.       Even more cloak and dagger.

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Jambo-Jimbo
34 minutes ago, southcap said:

No, but he was useful for the exact reason that came to be, he could be exchanged for folk Russia wanted.

 

As savage as Russia is, they are capable at looking at the bigger picture, he was valuable to them. Once he was gone, he was useless. 

 

I'd say he was, following a geopolitical path of least resistance, surplus to any useful requirements a long time ago.

 

We do the same, every country does, just most of the time it's off the radar and we never know a thing about it, we only know about this one because the exchange was done publicly.

If he was useless to the Russians, why would they wait 8 years before they tried to kill him?

 

I've seen several interviews & reports and according to these stories, this isn't the done thing, as there is allegedly a code amongst the intelligence services which thus far has rarely if ever been breached, and it isn't the first time I've heard this either.

Family members are completely off the target list and if a spy has been pardoned and exchanged for other spies, then that's the matter closed, they are free to live their lives, maybe this explains why Sergei Skripal and his family were living openly in Salisbury, why his son & daughter travelled freely back and forth to Russia, why his daughter lived and worked in Moscow and from what is becoming known about the family none of them seemed to in fear of their lives, they kept a low profile but weren't hiding from anybody, so maybe there is a code and they lived their lives openly and in peace, until now, so the question is what's changed?  Why has this supposed code been broken or is this something personal and not state sponsored?

 

If it's personal, how did the perpetrator get the nerve agent, perhaps because it's rare might be useful, rare as in rare or rare because it's old maybe from a different era which means someone from Skripal's past might be trying to settle old scores.

If it's state sponsored and this supposed code has been broken, then it'll be open season on every ex-spy the world over.

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southcap
13 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

We do the same, every country does, just most of the time it's off the radar and we never know a thing about it, we only know about this one because the exchange was done publicly.

If he was useless to the Russians, why would they wait 8 years before they tried to kill him?

 

I've seen several interviews & reports and according to these stories, this isn't the done thing, as there is allegedly a code amongst the intelligence services which thus far has rarely if ever been breached, and it isn't the first time I've heard this either.

Family members are completely off the target list and if a spy has been pardoned and exchanged for other spies, then that's the matter closed, they are free to live their lives, maybe this explains why Sergei Skripal and his family were living openly in Salisbury, why his son & daughter travelled freely back and forth to Russia, why his daughter lived and worked in Moscow and from what is becoming known about the family none of them seemed to in fear of their lives, they kept a low profile but weren't hiding from anybody, so maybe there is a code and they lived their lives openly and in peace, until now, so the question is what's changed?  Why has this supposed code been broken or is this something personal and not state sponsored?

 

If it's personal, how did the perpetrator get the nerve agent, perhaps because it's rare might be useful, rare as in rare or rare because it's old maybe from a different era which means someone from Skripal's past might be trying to settle old scores.

If it's state sponsored and this supposed code has been broken, then it'll be open season on every ex-spy the world over.

You say this like Russia is some kind of honourable state that plays by the rules.

 

Most likely just a sloppy operative, they did get a police man also.

 

You are indeed correct, there are other alternatives, but if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, I'm calling it a dog until other evidence emerges that suggests otherwise.

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Geoff the Mince

Putin does what he wants when he wants;  no one is going to touch him or his entourage.  It might take a few weeks to find out the nerve agent used ;  It was by accident that they found Litvanenko had been poisoned with Polonium 210 

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Jambo-Jimbo
18 minutes ago, southcap said:

You say this like Russia is some kind of honourable state that plays by the rules.

 

Most likely just a sloppy operative, they did get a police man also.

 

You are indeed correct, there are other alternatives, but if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, I'm calling it a dog until other evidence emerges that suggests otherwise.

 

In the murky world of international espionage are there any rules, let alone anybody heeding them if there were any, no we are talking about a code here which is completely different to rules.

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
9 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Putin does what he wants when he wants;  no one is going to touch him or his entourage.  It might take a few weeks to find out the nerve agent used ;  It was by accident that they found Litvanenko had been poisoned with Polonium 210 

 

Police said government scientists had identified the nerve agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734

 

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