Hard Brexit

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Your desperation increases.     Nicola got a burst bubble at the last election.

 

lost majority and only 37% of the vote.

 

with Labours return to prominence that will just make things worse as voters return to them.   

 

as will the opportunity to devolve more powers to Holyrood post Brexit.  That also works against Indy.

 

you are sunk.   

 

The only thing that shows desperation is the constant attack and lies against the current SG in the MSM. Everyone with a modicum of mild intelligence can see it. 

 

Anyway, how's your Corbynite plans for Brexit? You're one now, what's he planning? He could be the next PM in a few years. Spill the beans. I'm ALL ears :-D

[deesidejambo]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The only thing that shows desperation is the constant attack and lies against the current SG in the MSM. Everyone with a modicum of mild intelligence can see it. 

 

Anyway, how's your Corbynite plans for Brexit? You're one now, what's he planning? He could be the next PM in a few years. Spill the beans. I'm ALL ears :-D

 

You are never all ears - you ignore everything that doesn’t support your fantasy.

 

as for Brexit I already said I think it gives a great opportunity for Labour to go with a devo-max style dévolution of fishing and farming to Holyrood.  I’d support that especially as it further weakens Indy.   

 

Labour can sit nicely in between Tory’s who will stick with Westminster and the Nats who want full Indy.  That position could capture votes from both sides.

 

personally i wouldn’t put it past Davidson to also move into this opportunity with or without support from down south.

 

[Space Mackerel]

27 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

You are never all ears - you ignore everything that doesn’t support your fantasy.

 

as for Brexit I already said I think it gives a great opportunity for Labour to go with a devo-max style dévolution of fishing and farming to Holyrood.  I’d support that especially as it further weakens Indy.   

 

Labour can sit nicely in between Tory’s who will stick with Westminster and the Nats who want full Indy.  That position could capture votes from both sides.

 

personally i wouldn’t put it past Davidson to also move into this opportunity with or without support from down south.

 

 

Wait a minute, you now support Devo Max which is pretty much full blown federalism now? More independence for Scotland? That's what the SNP have been arguing for since about 6 months of the Brexit vote. 

 

Shame Ruth and Richard don't support this though. Bummer eh. 

 

 

 

[deesidejambo]

8 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Wait a minute, you now support Devo Max which is pretty much full blown federalism now? More independence for Scotland? That's what the SNP have been arguing for since about 6 months of the Brexit vote. 

 

Shame Ruth and Richard don't support this though. Bummer eh. 

 

 

 

 

Wrong again.

 

if you care to check my previous posts from discussions gone by, it was Gordon Brown who proposed a Devo-max solution within the Union that I supported then and still do.

 

the SNP want to stay in Europe with full freedom of movement which is totally different and doesn’t give control of fishing and farming to Scotland.   And given the popularity of the fishing/farming devo issue the SNP are backing another vote loser.

 

Your desperation increases.

 

 

[Boris]

9 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

 

You are never all ears - you ignore everything that doesn’t support your fantasy.

 

as for Brexit I already said I think it gives a great opportunity for Labour to go with a devo-max style dévolution of fishing and farming to Holyrood.  I’d support that especially as it further weakens Indy.   

 

Labour can sit nicely in between Tory’s who will stick with Westminster and the Nats who want full Indy.  That position could capture votes from both sides.

 

personally i wouldn’t put it past Davidson to also move into this opportunity with or without support from down south.

 

Fishing and farming are considered devolved areas anyway. Problem is post Brexit Westminster aren't keen to devolve. As I posted earlier, Davidson very quiet on this! 

[deesidejambo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

Fishing and farming are considered devolved areas anyway. Problem is post Brexit Westminster aren't keen to devolve. As I posted earlier, Davidson very quiet on this! 

 

Not the same - access to fishing for example comes under EU Rules and law - including quotas etc and allowance of european boats to fish in UK waters.     So neither Scotland or UK for that matter have full control of our own fishing waters.

 

Post Brexit UK Govt will have full control of who accesses the waters - not Holyrood.   The idea is to devolve this to Scotland.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Not the same - access to fishing for example comes under EU Rules and law - including quotas etc and allowance of european boats to fish in UK waters.     So neither Scotland or UK for that matter have full control of our own fishing waters.

 

Post Brexit UK Govt will have full control of who accesses the waters - not Holyrood.   The idea is to devolve this to Scotland.

So what about agriculture? This and fishing are currently devolved, why aren't Westminster giving back what is rightfully Holyroods post Brexit? 

[Boris]

I see your point regards waters though. 

[Space Mackerel]

54 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Wrong again.

 

if you care to check my previous posts from discussions gone by, it was Gordon Brown who proposed a Devo-max solution within the Union that I supported then and still do.

 

the SNP want to stay in Europe with full freedom of movement which is totally different and doesn’t give control of fishing and farming to Scotland.   And given the popularity of the fishing/farming devo issue the SNP are backing another vote loser.

 

Your desperation increases.

 

 

 

Here is the last SLAB leaders view, who at some point mooted Devo Max and what she thinks of the Tory voters you helped get into Westminster.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Wrong again.

 

if you care to check my previous posts from discussions gone by, it was Gordon Brown who proposed a Devo-max solution within the Union that I supported then and still do.

 

the SNP want to stay in Europe with full freedom of movement which is totally different and doesn’t give control of fishing and farming to Scotland.   And given the popularity of the fishing/farming devo issue the SNP are backing another vote loser.

 

Your desperation increases.

 

 

 

And here is the Scottish Tories voting, in essence, trying their collective level best to stop funding the emergency services in Scotland. Actually putting people's lives on the line for cheap political point scoring. Utterly unbelievable.

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Krankie is a busted flush needs to step down instead of the smoke and mirrors making us all worse off and blaming the tories . Failed on her watch Krankie oot !

[Space Mackerel]

19 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Krankie is a busted flush needs to step down instead of the smoke and mirrors making us all worse off and blaming the tories . Failed on her watch Krankie oot !

 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Krankie is a busted flush needs to step down instead of the smoke and mirrors making us all worse off and blaming the tories . Failed on her watch Krankie oot !

 

Krankie.

 

[deesidejambo]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Krankie.

 

 

Works both ways.  Tank girl?

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Works both ways.  Tank girl?

 

Not sure I've used that recently.  But then again, if you do a photo shoot on a tank, then such may be expected to follow.

 

Krankie is lame.  Especially given that Davidson, imo, is more of a likeness than Sturgeon.

[deesidejambo]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not sure I've used that recently.  But then again, if you do a photo shoot on a tank, then such may be expected to follow.

 

Krankie is lame.  Especially given that Davidson, imo, is more of a likeness than Sturgeon.

Maybe they could both go on Stars in Their Eyes.

 

Theresa May can go as a zombie.

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Works both ways.  Tank girl?

 

 

I mean, if you want it to be like the Krankie epithet, then calling her Candy, after John Candy, may be more appropriate?  

 

That would be like with like.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, deesidejambo said:

Maybe they could both go on Stars in Their Eyes.

 

Theresa May can go as a zombie.

 

[deesidejambo]

Perhaps Kezia Dugdale can go as that bird on I'm A Celebrity.

[Space Mackerel]

44 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

I mean, if you want it to be like the Krankie epithet, then calling her Candy, after John Candy, may be more appropriate?  

 

That would be like with like.

 

Surprised that 105mm hasn't got a kink in the barrel now :-/

[Space Mackerel]

22 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

Perhaps Kezia Dugdale can go as that bird on I'm A Celebrity.

 

This Corbyn threat you were on about? Scots voters starting to see through his smoke and mirrors possibly? 

 

http://thenational.scot/news/15847604.Poll_reveals_dramatic_drop_in_support_for_Corbyn_among_Scottish_voters/

 

Bad Nationalist paper, I know. 

[The Comedian]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

Fishing and farming are considered devolved areas anyway. Problem is post Brexit Westminster aren't keen to devolve. As I posted earlier, Davidson very quiet on this! 

 

Why should they be devolved when Scotland voted majority to remain in the EU? 

 

The SNP should not be allowed to be fiercely pro-EU AND in favour of powers returning from Brussels. Presumably they'd accept those devolved powers over fishing from Westminster (Boo!) then hand them over to Brussels (Yay!) as it's better run there than in Scotland? 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, The Comedian said:

 

Why should they be devolved when Scotland voted majority to remain in the EU? 

 

The SNP should not be allowed to be fiercely pro-EU AND in favour of powers returning from Brussels. Presumably they'd accept those devolved powers over fishing from Westminster (Boo!) then hand them over to Brussels (Yay!) as it's better run there than in Scotland? 

 

 

 

You're forgetting a major flaw. There probably wouldn't be any fish to catch in UK waters if it wasn't for the EU and CAF and its subsequent policies. 

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

And here is the Scottish Tories voting, in essence, trying their collective level best to stop funding the emergency services in Scotland. Actually putting people's lives on the line for cheap political point scoring. Utterly unbelievable.

 

 

 

Perhaps Blackman and Thewliss should enquire of the Scottish Government with respect to funding of Police Scotland. 

 

Unlikely, I know, but you may be interested to learn that the Scottish Government promised to make a “significant” contribution to the reform costs amounting to £67.5m a year. However...

 

An Audit Scotland report noted:

 

“‘The Scottish government provided the reform budget to cover costs such as VAT liability, voluntary severance/early retirement costs and ICT developments. The accounts state that expenditure on these areas accounted for £46.5m.

 

The report concluded that: 

 

‘It is not clear what the remaining £21 million was spent on.”

[Boris]

59 minutes ago, The Comedian said:

 

Why should they be devolved when Scotland voted majority to remain in the EU? 

 

The SNP should not be allowed to be fiercely pro-EU AND in favour of powers returning from Brussels. Presumably they'd accept those devolved powers over fishing from Westminster (Boo!) then hand them over to Brussels (Yay!) as it's better run there than in Scotland? 

 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Perhaps Blackman and Thewliss should enquire of the Scottish Government with respect to funding of Police Scotland. 

 

Unlikely, I know, but you may be interested to learn that the Scottish Government promised to make a “significant” contribution to the reform costs amounting to £67.5m a year. However...

 

An Audit Scotland report noted:

 

“‘The Scottish government provided the reform budget to cover costs such as VAT liability, voluntary severance/early retirement costs and ICT developments. The accounts state that expenditure on these areas accounted for £46.5m.

 

The report concluded that: 

 

‘It is not clear what the remaining £21 million was spent on.”

 

Reading this then it appears that PS haven’t accounted for the missing monies through their accounts? 

Read it again, the funding was provided but the accounts show a missing £21million in PS. 

[jake]

Don't worry it was the Russians.

Another referendum on its way.

Oh and for all you kiddy on nationalists.

No doubt the Russians will be blamed if we ever get independence.

It's all so laughable trump Syria brexit oh and race relations in Europe .

All Russia.

Because our media is so naive.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42719027

[deesidejambo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Don't worry it was the Russians.

Another referendum on its way.

Oh and for all you kiddy on nationalists.

No doubt the Russians will be blamed if we ever get independence.

It's all so laughable trump Syria brexit oh and race relations in Europe .

All Russia.

Because our media is so naive.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42719027

 

****s sake Jake.  Try for ****s sake to post in coherent English to give everyone a chance to understand your point.  Otherwise you are wasting your time posting.

[jake]

16 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

****s sake Jake.  Try for ****s sake to post in coherent English to give everyone a chance to understand your point.  Otherwise you are wasting your time posting.

I was trying to make the point regarding the link.

Brexit now under the spotlight regarding Russian trolls.

I then thought I'd add for Indy voters(I'm one)that all the tactics they use will be used against them.

Regarding brexit.

Many things such as Syria and race relations in Europe are being attributed to Russians using fake news.

 

I ended sarcastically that our media is in no way sophisticated.

 

Laughable.

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Don't worry it was the Russians.

Another referendum on its way.

Oh and for all you kiddy on nationalists.

No doubt the Russians will be blamed if we ever get independence.

It's all so laughable trump Syria brexit oh and race relations in Europe .

All Russia.

Because our media is so naive.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42719027

 

 

From the article...

 

”In a speech in November, she said Russia's attempts to "sow discord" in the West could not go unchallenged and warned President Vladimir Putin: "We know what you are up to."

 

Like the good old stiff upper lip British don’t do any clandestine black ops. 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Space Mackerel

[jake]

18 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

From the article...

 

”In a speech in November, she said Russia's attempts to "sow discord" in the West could not go unchallenged and warned President Vladimir Putin: "We know what you are up to."

 

Like the good old stiff upper lip British don’t do any clandestine black ops. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

From the article...

 

”In a speech in November, she said Russia's attempts to "sow discord" in the West could not go unchallenged and warned President Vladimir Putin: "We know what you are up to."

 

Like the good old stiff upper lip British don’t do any clandestine black ops. 

 

Guaranteed if Scotland votes independence it will be because you were a Russian troll space.

?

[Space Mackerel]

21 minutes ago, jake said:

 

Guaranteed if Scotland votes independence it will be because you were a Russian troll space.

?

 

Not if pal, it's a question of when now ?

[Space Mackerel]

Back to Brexit, I believe 50 Labour MPs tonight defied the whip and voted against Corbyn joining the Lib and SNP in the lobby. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Space Mackerel

[deesidejambo]

30 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Not if pal, it's a question of when now ?

 

 

Could be a while.

[Space Mackerel]

22 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

 

Could be a while.

 

 

Oh, you know you've been a strong advocate of increasing tax to pay for increase in salaries to public sector workers etc. SLAB just voted in Holyrood along with the Tories against it tonight. 

[ri Alban]

On 16/01/2018 at 11:31, frankblack said:

As others have said above, the SNP commission a report with the premise that everything to do with Brexit is going to be shite, and lo and behold the report says exactly what they wanted.  Big surprise!

 

The last time I checked the SNP had more than three times the deficit of the rest of the UK, so I would dismiss this type of political posturing out of hand.

The SNP have deficit?

[ri Alban]

On 16/01/2018 at 11:59, SE16 3LN said:

Oh well, the SNP should now be able to exploit the markets for whisky etc. in the US, India and China that would have provided a huge Economic surplus in an independent Scotland. 

Why can't they do this and have access to the EU and rUK post Independence. Would that not be even better?

[ri Alban]

On 16/01/2018 at 12:41, AlphonseCapone said:

 

According to that isn't the majority (58%) will to accept freedom of movement for trade?

It is, but hey.

 

The other result is based on Scotland being part of the UK, so it's only natural we'd have that way of thinking.

[ri Alban]

On 16/01/2018 at 12:59, GorgieMIlls said:

In very basoc terms can someone tell me:

 

Why do the SNP believe that Scotland will proper as an individual nation (as opposed to part of the UK) but wants to remain part of an even bigger collective of countries in Europe

Maybe if you knew the difference you wouldn't be asking.

[ri Alban]

On 16/01/2018 at 22:07, Francis Albert said:

Does the SNP favour hard or soft independence from the UK?

Scotland will favour the same freedom of movement and free trade that it would want from the EU.

Why wouldn't the EU and UK trade with Scotland post Independence, that's just stupid. If England want a border post indy to keep out EU citizens, well let then get on with it and all that's involved. Any unauthorised people they can send back here or to mainland Europe.

To answer your question,Soft Sexit, unless you think otherwise.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

16 hours ago, The Comedian said:

 

Why should they be devolved when Scotland voted majority to remain in the EU? 

 

The SNP should not be allowed to be fiercely pro-EU AND in favour of powers returning from Brussels. Presumably they'd accept those devolved powers over fishing from Westminster (Boo!) then hand them over to Brussels (Yay!) as it's better run there than in Scotland? 

 

 

Why should Scotland have a parliament? 

 

Labour should not  have been allowed to be fiercely pro UK and in favour  of more powers returning from WM. Presumably they'd accept those powers from  Brussels (boo) then hand them over to WM(Yay) as it's better run than Scotland.?

[deesidejambo]

7 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Oh, you know you've been a strong advocate of increasing tax to pay for increase in salaries to public sector workers etc. SLAB just voted in Holyrood along with the Tories against it tonight. 

 

Wrong again - blind assumption - no wonder you are a CT.

 

I strongly support tax increases especially to higher-rate earners as I see the rich-poor gap increasing due to the rich being able to avoid and offset the higher-rates, hence the gap increases.

 

But I didn't say the money should be used for salary increases for the lower-paid - you are assuming that.   Mind you, now you mention it, I would support that but as part of a costed budget that the whole country can see and support.

 

As for Slab - they don't support the SNP Tax proposals because they are not firm enough - I agree with them.  The Tories vote because they say its too much - I dont agree with that.     You should focus on the issues and reasons and not assume every party has the same positions.

[Space Mackerel]

55 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

Wrong again - blind assumption - no wonder you are a CT.

 

I strongly support tax increases especially to higher-rate earners as I see the rich-poor gap increasing due to the rich being able to avoid and offset the higher-rates, hence the gap increases.

 

But I didn't say the money should be used for salary increases for the lower-paid - you are assuming that.   Mind you, now you mention it, I would support that but as part of a costed budget that the whole country can see and support.

 

As for Slab - they don't support the SNP Tax proposals because they are not firm enough - I agree with them.  The Tories vote because they say its too much - I dont agree with that.     You should focus on the issues and reasons and not assume every party has the same positions.

 

Youre some flip flopper pal.

 

You have advocated tax increases to pay for public services in the past. Pay for staff in these services are part of the overall cost which helps to retain them and their skills. James O'Brien yesterday was saying that 10% of the nursing staff are leaving the NHS every year due to low pay and conditions.

 

Back to Brexit, as this is what this thread is about. You think whacking taxes up massively is a good thing at this moment in time when there is some much uncertainty on what is going to happen come March 2019? You are seriously off your head if you think that's a great idea. You voted Tory at the last election who propose low taxes and the "trickle down" effect FFS. 

 

 

[SE16 3LN]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Why can't they do this and have access to the EU and rUK post Independence. Would that not be even better?

Yes, why not? Apparently membership of the EU imposes tariffs that are prohibitive of this happening. Why do we want to be in the EU again?

[Boris]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Yes, why not? Apparently membership of the EU imposes tariffs that are prohibitive of this happening. Why do we want to be in the EU again?

 

In respect of Whisky, being in the EU seems quite a good thing.

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-scotch/scotch-whisky-industry-warns-of-post-brexit-tariffs-idUKKCN10E1MA

[SE16 3LN]

20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

In respect of Whisky, being in the EU seems quite a good thing.

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-scotch/scotch-whisky-industry-warns-of-post-brexit-tariffs-idUKKCN10E1MA

I'm not getting that from that article. It's really just bemoaning the uncertainty. 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'm not getting that from that article. It's really just bemoaning the uncertainty. 

 

I thought this sounded a like a warning

 

"Unless there are transitional arrangements, Scotch whisky will lose significant tariff reductions in markets including Korea, South Africa, Colombia and Peru, when it ceases to be covered by the EU’s Free Trade Agreements, the trade group said."

 

and then this

 

"

The industry said it will face no tariffs on exports to the EU, which accounted for nearly a third of its 3.8 billion pounds worth of exports last year, or in other large markets including the United States, Canada and Mexico.

In markets with high tariffs, like India with its 150 percent tariff on imported spirits, the group said Brexit would not change anything."

 

Obviously a post Brexit UK could negotiate good deals afterwards, but perhaps by then the damage to the industry has been done?  Exports fall, loss of market share etc etc.

So, already lots of no tariff agreements (USA, Mexico, Canada and the EU) but may lose in the EU if no deal/WTO rules?

[SE16 3LN]

36 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I thought this sounded a like a warning

 

"Unless there are transitional arrangements, Scotch whisky will lose significant tariff reductions in markets including Korea, South Africa, Colombia and Peru, when it ceases to be covered by the EU’s Free Trade Agreements, the trade group said."

 

and then this

 

"

The industry said it will face no tariffs on exports to the EU, which accounted for nearly a third of its 3.8 billion pounds worth of exports last year, or in other large markets including the United States, Canada and Mexico.

In markets with high tariffs, like India with its 150 percent tariff on imported spirits, the group said Brexit would not change anything."

 

Obviously a post Brexit UK could negotiate good deals afterwards, but perhaps by then the damage to the industry has been done?  Exports fall, loss of market share etc etc.

So, already lots of no tariff agreements (USA, Mexico, Canada and the EU) but may lose in the EU if no deal/WTO rules?

Unionist scaremongering isn't it?

[Boris]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Unionist scaremongering isn't it?

 

Or not!

 

Interesting to see an industry perspective of it though, as opposed to politicans rhetoric.

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Yes, why not? Apparently membership of the EU imposes tariffs that are prohibitive of this happening. Why do we want to be in the EU again?

Who said EU membership, Norway style. Free trade for movement of goods and people. 

Leaves us to trade with everyone.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ri Alban