Hard Brexit

[Boris]

2 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

You cannot promote an agenda within the EU unless Germany and their puppet France agree with it.

 

Balls. 

[Cade]

2 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

You cannot promote an agenda within the EU unless Germany and their puppet France agree with it.

I keep forgetting.

Is the EU dictatorship run from Berlin, Paris, Brussells or Luxemburg?

 

*every member state has an absolute veto over anything top level

 

 

[jake]

http://www.euronews.com/2018/02/01/less-than-half-of-eu-countries-are-fully-democratic-report

 

Guess what the UK is one of the top nations world wide for civil liberty and political inclusion.

 

Yet as this report shows more than half of the EU member states fail .

France being one of them.

 

Although some so called left leaning liberals would see the UK abandon and ignore the democratic vote to brexit.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

I keep forgetting.

Is the EU dictatorship run from Berlin, Paris, Brussells or Luxemburg?

 

*every member state has an absolute veto over anything top level

 

 

I assume reversing the free movement of people principle is high level and that to change it requires unanimous agreement of 28 nations. A perfect example  of how democratic rights in individual nations are nullified. Even if it is a qualified majority vote issue same goes.

Yet Angela Merkel can unilaterally decide without consulting any other member to allow over 1m "refugees"to enter the eu and enjoy free movement. And then try to demand that eu members take their "quota".

I am not anti-immigrant just believe that the uk should have the same right as almost every independent state outside the eu has - to cotrol immigration as it chooses. Like the US. India, Australia, Canada etc etc

Edited February 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[CJGJ]

9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I assume reversing the free movement of people principle is high level and that to change it requires unanimous agreement of 28 nations. A perfect example  of how democratic rights in individual nations are nullified. Even if it is a qualified majority vote issue same goes.

Yet Angela Merkel can unilaterally decide without consulting any other member to allow over 1m "refugees"to enter the eu and enjoy free movement. And then try to demand that eu members take their "quota".

I am not anti-immigrant just believe that the uk should have the same right as almost every independent state outside the eu has - to cotrol immigration as it chooses. Like the US. India, Australia, Canada etc etc

I must have missed the bit where the UK took their 'quota' or indeed the vast majority of EU states..another example of fake news from the brexiteers

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

I must have missed the bit where the UK took their 'quota' or indeed the vast majority of EU states..another example of fake news from the brexiteers

Try reading my post again and look up the word "try". But once Angela grants German citizenship to the incomers the other EU nations won't have to agree quotas. And even now for those in the Schengen zone there is no effective restriction on movement.

I read that each month now the immigration of qualified doctors and nurses from India (for example) is restricted because the visa limits have been reached.

But Eastern European hand car washers are not restricted in numbers.

Seems crazy to me.

But that view is probably "racist" in some eyes.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[CJGJ]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Try reading my post again and look up the word "try". But once Angela grants German citizenship to the incomers the other EU nations won't have to agree quotas. And even now for those in the Schengen zone there is no effective restriction on movement.

I read that each month now the immigration of qualified doctors and nurses from India (for example) is restricted because the visa limits have been reached.

But Eastern European hand car washers are not restricted in numbers.

Seems crazy to me.

But that view is probably "racist" in some eyes.

So you would agree we had a choice whether or not to take people in..which seems to be far from what you were inferring

 

Again it's just made up scare stories..it is clear that the vast majority of people are now against Brexit and had we a vote today the result would be so different.

 

The vote was won through fear and ignorance with people not even knowing what deal they were voting for..utter madness.

 

Still we'll be alright when that £350,000 million per week goes to the NHS..OH SORRY that was another piece of fake news

 

Oh and nIce to see you add that other piece of rubbish re doctors and nurses in a desperate attempt to make your view all about the UK and how Europe is going to be blamed for our citizens not getting the care they deserve from that extra funding which only exists in fantasy land...in any case for a man who wants to limit immigration does that not mean India will have more doctors and nurses to care for their own population which is surely good news

 

I have to add your comment about 'Eastern European car washers' really seems to show us your true views and sad to say they are not  in my view acceptable in this day and age

[jake]

3 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

So you would agree we had a choice whether or not to take people in..which seems to be far from what you were inferring

 

Again it's just made up scare stories..it is clear that the vast majority of people are now against Brexit and had we a vote today the result would be so different.

 

The vote was won through fear and ignorance with people not even knowing what deal they were voting for..utter madness.

 

Still we'll be alright when that £350,000 million per week goes to the NHS..OH SORRY that was another piece of fake news

 

Oh and nIce to see you add that other piece of rubbish re doctors and nurses in a desperate attempt to make your view all about the UK and how Europe is going to be blamed for our citizens not getting the care they deserve from that extra funding which only exists in fantasy land...in any case for a man who wants to limit immigration does that not mean India will have more doctors and nurses to care for their own population which is surely good news

 

I have to add your comment about 'Eastern European car washers' really seems to show us your true views and sad to say they are not  in my view acceptable in this day and age

What are you basing this vast majority of people are against brexit on?

 

As for you casting FA as some kind of unacceptable racist.

 

That's the kind of shitty viewpoint that is imo driving the rise in the very thing you espouse to hate.

Sick of saying it but that kind of argument from the left only let's the far right address concerns that are valid.

 

 

[CJGJ]

3 minutes ago, jake said:

What are you basing this vast majority of people are against brexit on?

 

As for you casting FA as some kind of unacceptable racist.

 

That's the kind of shitty viewpoint that is imo driving the rise in the very thing you espouse to hate.

Sick of saying it but that kind of argument from the left only let's the far right address concerns that are valid.

 

 

So do you support the 'Eastern European car washers' quote or not ?

 

There are ways and means to make a point of view but some are just not  acceptable in this day and age.....so I await your answer

 

Oh and I'm hardly from the left but thanks for creating another piece of fake news

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

So you would agree we had a choice whether or not to take people in..which seems to be far from what you were inferring

 

Again it's just made up scare stories..it is clear that the vast majority of people are now against Brexit and had we a vote today the result would be so different.

 

The vote was won through fear and ignorance with people not even knowing what deal they were voting for..utter madness.

 

Still we'll be alright when that £350,000 million per week goes to the NHS..OH SORRY that was another piece of fake news

 

Oh and nIce to see you add that other piece of rubbish re doctors and nurses in a desperate attempt to make your view all about the UK and how Europe is going to be blamed for our citizens not getting the care they deserve from that extra funding which only exists in fantasy land...in any case for a man who wants to limit immigration does that not mean India will have more doctors and nurses to care for their own population which is surely good news

 

I have to add your comment about 'Eastern European car washers' really seems to show us your true views and sad to say they are not  in my view acceptable in this day and age

First I wasn't inferring we did not have a choice about whether or not to take Angela's refugees in. But once Angela grants them German citizenship, we won't.

What is your evidence for saying the "vast majority" are against Brexit?

Fear and ignorance worked on both sides of the debate.

£350,000 million is out by a factor 0f 1000.

India itself has argued for the UK to be more open to Indian students and qualified people.

And most if not all countries outside the EU are free to give priority (and do)  to qualified immigrants over unskilled ones.

But maybe most of the world outside the EU has views that are unacceptable in this day and age. Perhaps the rest of the world is racist. Or maybe Europe is.

[jake]

5 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

So do you support the 'Eastern European car washers' quote or not ?

 

There are ways and means to make a point of view but some are just not  acceptable in this day and age.....so I await your answer

 

Oh and I'm hardly from the left but thanks for creating another piece of fake news

Aw come on just to lighten up it's me Jake I love fake news? 

 

None of us always make our points well.

Me least of all.

I have some sympathy with the analogy.

No one as FA says describes as racist the countries he quoted when they employ strict criteria for immigration.

And perhaps countries could soak up actual refugees fleeing from troubles more readily if not for the pressure of economic migrants.

 

I have no grief with eastern European workers.

Or any others .

I live and work beside many.

Friends and neighbours.

Look we are both in disagreement about the EU.

I just find the racist innuendo a real problem and imo something that has had an opposite effect.

 

[CJGJ]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

First I wasn't inferring we did not have a choice about whether or not to take Angela's refugees in. But once Angela grants them German citizenship, we won't.

What is your evidence for saying the "vast majority" are against Brexit?

Fear and ignorance worked on both sides of the debate.

£350,000 million is out by a factor 0f 1000.

India itself has argued for the UK to be more open to Indian students and qualified people.

And most if not all countries outside the EU are free to give priority (and do)  to qualified immigrants over unskilled ones.

But maybe most of the world outside the EU has views that are unacceptable in this day and age. Perhaps the rest of the world is racist. Or maybe Europe is.

Thanks for the maths lesson and I'll take that on board,,,£350 million per week will be burned in my mind now.. a fair and accurate point

 

I was not aware you needed evidence for a point of view.... In conversations at work, in public etc my view has been formed re a reversal of the Brexit decision after speaking to people many of whom voted to leave.

Your view re India is as I said just another feeble attempt to make some feel that the EU is somehow responsible for a lack of doctors and nurses when in fact it is a UK decision and nothing to do with the EU 

[jake]

8 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Thanks for the maths lesson and I'll take that on board,,,£350 million per week will be burned in my mind now.. a fair and accurate point

 

I was not aware you needed evidence for a point of view.... In conversations at work, in public etc my view has been formed re a reversal of the Brexit decision after speaking to people many of whom voted to leave.

Your view re India is as I said just another feeble attempt to make some feel that the EU is somehow responsible for a lack of doctors and nurses when in fact it is a UK decision and nothing to do with the EU 

And what of the catastrophic events we were told would happen if we voted brexit.

The EU does not serve it's members well.

Contrary to your experience I've found from talking with workmates that the EU is not favourable.

And there's a good mix of nationality.

 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

And what of the catastrophic events we were told would happen if we voted brexit.

 

 

You weren't told any such thing.  Don't make stuff up.

 

You were told that some pretty tough things would happen when you left.  But you haven't left yet. 

 

You're still in the single market, so no damage there yet. 

 

We haven't yet blocked your exports or imposed tariffs, so no damage there yet. 

 

We haven't yet stopped your banks and finance companies from trading in our markets, so no damage there yet. 

 

You haven't yet blocked imports and disrupted your businesses' supply chains, so no damage there yet. 

 

The Channel Tunnel closures and the queues to get through customs checks at Le Havre, Cherbourg, Rotterdam and Dublin haven't built up, so no damage there yet. 

 

It'll all be just fine, jake.

 

Just fine.

[jake]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

You weren't told any such thing.  Don't make stuff up.

 

You were told that some pretty tough things would happen when you left.  But you haven't left yet. 

 

You're still in the single market, so no damage there yet. 

 

We haven't yet blocked your exports or imposed tariffs, so no damage there yet. 

 

We haven't yet stopped your banks and finance companies from trading in our markets, so no damage there yet. 

 

You haven't yet blocked imports and disrupted your businesses' supply chains, so no damage there yet. 

 

The Channel Tunnel closures and the queues to get through customs checks at Le Havre, Cherbourg, Rotterdam and Dublin haven't built up, so no damage there yet. 

 

It'll all be just fine, jake.

 

Just fine.

Oh come on .

It's almost on a daily basis .

And yes actually in the run up to the vote it was almost a comparable set of tactics as used by unionists in the Indy vote.

Shall I provide evidence?

 

Anyway in comparison to most member states the UK is really in a far better position no?

Also the Italian elections are you not concerned about your union?

Looking around the member states does not surely fill you with optimism?

 

 

[jake]

Who can forget the chancellor of the exchequer a right wing Tory telling us we would all be permanently poorer?

 

Ulysses .

 

Shall I continue?

[jake]

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by jake

[jake]

So are we still clinging to this idea that it's the UK who are somehow the racists?

[jambo lodge]

15 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Balls. 

Andrew Neil on twitter this morning confirming that it was the German ambassador to the UK who advised Merkel to resist David Cameron's attempts to change the EU from within. You simply cannot negotiate with a structure that is undemocratic.

[Boris]

13 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Andrew Neil on twitter this morning confirming that it was the German ambassador to the UK who advised Merkel to resist David Cameron's attempts to change the EU from within. You simply cannot negotiate with a structure that is undemocratic.

 

So Germany would resist, but what if the UK had everyone else on board?  Germany would have to accept that.

 

Do you have link to Andrew Neill's twitter...I can't seem to find it.

[Francis Albert]

34 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Andrew Neil on twitter this morning confirming that it was the German ambassador to the UK who advised Merkel to resist David Cameron's attempts to change the EU from within. You simply cannot negotiate with a structure that is undemocratic.

I wonder if it is the same (now former) ambassador who told May at last week's security conference that Brexit was highly regrettable that "things would be so much easier if you stayed". Classic EU speak - things would be so much easier if we could just ignore democratic votes ... as of course the EU has history of doing. Mind you they now have lots of allies in the UK on that.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, jambo lodge said:

Andrew Neil on twitter this morning confirming that it was the German ambassador to the UK who advised Merkel to resist David Cameron's attempts to change the EU from within. You simply cannot negotiate with a structure that is undemocratic.

 

Is this the tweet you refer to?  Seems to be more about UK concessions than changing the EU as a whole?

 

Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil 12h12 hours ago

More

Had a fallout tonight with acting German ambassador to UK. If your embassy hadn’t told Mrs Merkel we’d vote to Remain, she would have given Mr Cameron more concessions and we might well have voted to Remain. What’s your source for that, she asked. Your embassy, I replied.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I wonder if it is the same (now former) ambassador who told May at last week's security conference that Brexit was highly regrettable that "things would be so much easier if you stayed". Classic EU speak - things would be so much easier if we could just ignore democratic votes ... as of course the EU has history of doing. Mind you they now have lots of allies in the UK on that.

 

Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to change their minds, especially on matters of massive importance and significance?

[Francis Albert]

45 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to change their minds, especially on matters of massive importance and significance?

As far as the eu is concerned if you vote the wrong way changing your mind is almost compulsory!

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

As far as the eu is concerned if you vote the wrong way changing your mind is almost compulsory!

 

I think the example of Ireland has been mentioned previously, and the Irish did change their minds, because the offending parts initially were challenged in the EU, and concessions were won, and the Irish people said "OK, we have a deal!"

 

Now, as the Andrew Neil tweet suggests, Cameron may also have got more had the threat of the UK leaving been taken more credibly by the Germans.

[Ulysses]

22 hours ago, jake said:

Oh come on .

It's almost on a daily basis .

And yes actually in the run up to the vote it was almost a comparable set of tactics as used by unionists in the Indy vote.

Shall I provide evidence?

 

Anyway in comparison to most member states the UK is really in a far better position no?

Also the Italian elections are you not concerned about your union?

Looking around the member states does not surely fill you with optimism?

 

 

 

jake, I know you want to believe what you want to believe, and you have to admire the extent to which you will ignore reality to keep believing.

 

But it's unbelievably naive to ask why bad stuff hasn't happened.  The answer is obvious.  The bad stuff hasn't happened because you haven't actually done anything yet.  You voted to leave - but you're not gone yet.

 

Voting to leave doesn't change the single market straight away, so the bad effects can't be felt straight away. 

 

But when you leave in 400 days from now you will feel them. 

 

Your trucks will be stuck in the UK, and there will be queues for British goods and British people at the ports and land crossings in France, Holland, Ireland, Spain, Denmark, Belgium, and so on.  Your exports will cost more for us to buy and will become less competitive - unless your currency drops in value in which case your prices will climb and climb.  Your industries who right now have a hassle-free supply chain of parts and materials from anywhere in Europe will see that supply chain grind to a halt.  Your banks will lose their licences to operate in a market of millions of punters and a few trillions worth of business.

 

Unless of course there's a deal, or a transition period.

 

So stop asking naive questions - people who genuinely interested in the issue and properly informed about it don't need to ask a question like that.  They already know the answer.

[JamboX2]

On 21/02/2018 at 12:12, Francis Albert said:

David Cameron wasted a lot of time rroaming eu capitals and ended up only with meaningless emergency brake nonsense.

 

He actually got a good deal. He got opt-outs from home affairs issues Brexiteers wanted. But he didn't stop men with funny voices coming in so they stabbed him in the back.

[JamboX2]

57 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

jake, I know you want to believe what you want to believe, and you have to admire the extent to which you will ignore reality to keep believing.

 

But it's unbelievably naive to ask why bad stuff hasn't happened.  The answer is obvious.  The bad stuff hasn't happened because you haven't actually done anything yet.  You voted to leave - but you're not gone yet.

 

Voting to leave doesn't change the single market straight away, so the bad effects can't be felt straight away. 

 

But when you leave in 400 days from now you will feel them. 

 

Your trucks will be stuck in the UK, and there will be queues for British goods and British people at the ports and land crossings in France, Holland, Ireland, Spain, Denmark, Belgium, and so on.  Your exports will cost more for us to buy and will become less competitive - unless your currency drops in value in which case your prices will climb and climb.  Your industries who right now have a hassle-free supply chain of parts and materials from anywhere in Europe will see that supply chain grind to a halt.  Your banks will lose their licences to operate in a market of millions of punters and a few trillions worth of business.

 

Unless of course there's a deal, or a transition period.

 

So stop asking naive questions - people who genuinely interested in the issue and properly informed about it don't need to ask a question like that.  They already know the answer.

 

[jake]

53 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

jake, I know you want to believe what you want to believe, and you have to admire the extent to which you will ignore reality to keep believing.

 

But it's unbelievably naive to ask why bad stuff hasn't happened.  The answer is obvious.  The bad stuff hasn't happened because you haven't actually done anything yet.  You voted to leave - but you're not gone yet.

 

Voting to leave doesn't change the single market straight away, so the bad effects can't be felt straight away. 

 

But when you leave in 400 days from now you will feel them. 

 

Your trucks will be stuck in the UK, and there will be queues for British goods and British people at the ports and land crossings in France, Holland, Ireland, Spain, Denmark, Belgium, and so on.  Your exports will cost more for us to buy and will become less competitive - unless your currency drops in value in which case your prices will climb and climb.  Your industries who right now have a hassle-free supply chain of parts and materials from anywhere in Europe will see that supply chain grind to a halt.  Your banks will lose their licences to operate in a market of millions of punters and a few trillions worth of business.

 

Unless of course there's a deal, or a transition period.

 

So stop asking naive questions - people who genuinely interested in the issue and properly informed about it don't need to ask a question like that.  They already know the answer.

Ulysses.

I don't ignore reality.

You do.

In a capitalist system effects are felt according to market value.

If you believe the borders of UK trade will grind to a halt it's you who is naive.

If you believe that in 400 days time other factors not least the Italian elections won't weaken a fragile EU then frankly you are not paying attention to a wider picture than the UK and EU scenario.

Ulysses.

So many countries that are member states are questioning the validity of being a member.

The currency means little in the way of manouvreability.

I'm no fan of capitalism but it's the reality .

And the Euro cannot serve France let alone the poorer south .

German disillusionment through immigration means that a harder approach will mean more scenarios like Greece.

Reality is plain to see.

 

 

I might add Uly that I admire your stance but find it lacks objectivity.

☺

[jake]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

It'

[jake]

It's really not

[jake]

23 hours ago, jake said:

 

So no takers on how tolerant the UK is?

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I think the example of Ireland has been mentioned previously, and the Irish did change their minds, because the offending parts initially were challenged in the EU, and concessions were won, and the Irish people said "OK, we have a deal!"

 

Now, as the Andrew Neil tweet suggests, Cameron may also have got more had the threat of the UK leaving been taken more credibly by the Germans.

 

The issue is Merkel's government put too much faith in Cameron doing what any sane PM would do and fight his corner in the national interest.

 

A brief history of Tory PMs since Heath would've shown he'd cave in. 

 

Major when he and the pro-EU Clarke etc were in control should have withdrawn the whip from the '*******s'. Cameron should've kicked them out when he took over. Re-jig the HQ and clear out the old double-breasted brigade who held him back.

 

Merkel's gamble wasn't a gamble it was a misreading of domestic issues in the Tories. However, we have to remember when Cameron was getting his deal, the EU were fire fighting floods of migrants fleeing Syria, putting out the remaining economic fires of the crash and dealing with crises in the Ukraine - bigger fish than Cameron's gripes with Moggites basically.

 

Cameron and his party are responsible for the biggest slump in Britain's presence in foreign affairs since Eden and Suez. 

[JamboX2]

10 minutes ago, jake said:

So no takers on how tolerant the UK is?

 

That's a public poll.

 

Our current government refuses to let orphans in Calais in. 

 

Try to separate things and develop the ability to analyse them separately. 

 

I think John McLaughlin is a great keeper. He is therefore not the greatest keeper in the world.

 

British voters think they're tolerant. Their government's policies do not show compassion.

[JamboX2]

13 minutes ago, jake said:

It's really not

Jake - BREXIT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. WE HAVE NO SOLID OR AGREED AIM AS TO WHAT WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS.

 

IF THINGS ARE NOT RESOLVED WITHIN A YEAR WHEN BREXIT HAPPENS THINGS WILL BE VERY BAD.

[jake]

11 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

That's a public poll.

 

Our current government refuses to let orphans in Calais in. 

 

Try to separate things and develop the ability to analyse them separately. 

 

I think John McLaughlin is a great keeper. He is therefore not the greatest keeper in the world.

 

British voters think they're tolerant. Their government's policies do not show compassion.

So our government is less tolerant than how many member states of the EU.

Please state figures regarding foreign aid and please I'd like to know how the UK comes out ahead of every country bar one in civil liberty and social political inclusion and is ranked 14th in the world as such.

 

You really need a reality check.

[jake]

23 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

Jake - BREXIT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. WE HAVE NO SOLID OR AGREED AIM AS TO WHAT WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS.

 

IF THINGS ARE NOT RESOLVED WITHIN A YEAR WHEN BREXIT HAPPENS THINGS WILL BE VERY BAD.

Shouting only shows you up.

Brexit has happened in the eyes of the market forces that govern our life's.

 

Been hearing daily the scare stories.

 

Nothing but the reverse has happened.

 

Even now a level headed poster like uly is sounding like the sun for remainers.

 

 

The EU is finished.

 

Thank fek.

 

[jake]

Yes bad old ignorant UK.

Contributing more than Germany and France in foreign aid.

BAD old UK .

Less representation of far right politicians than Germany France Spain Hungary Austria in fact every single EU member state.

 

BAD bad UK  proposing to deport half a million migrants ooops sorry that's Italy.

BAD UK  imprisonment proposed by our prime minister for fake id from migrants of up to 5 years ooops sorry that's France.

Shall I go on .

Shall I give examples of Czech polish Hungarian Austrian and even Scandanavian measures.

 

Reality means actually reading about what's going on in Europe other than reading the Guardian the BBC the mail the telegraph.

 

Because trust me if you did then Uly and Jambo perhaps you would be more savvy.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, jake said:

I don't ignore reality.

 

 

But you just did.  In fact, every time you get a sensible explanation of the facts you just do.  You ignore the information put in front of you, move the goalposts, and pretend to be discussing a different question.

 

You asked why the bad stuff hasn't happened.  You seem to think that because it hasn't happened that's some kind of proof that Brexit won't do you any harm.  But you haven't actually Brexited yet.  You're still in the EU.  You still have all the advantages of barrier-free trade.  Therefore the bad stuff can't have happened yet.

 

Brexit is in the future, jake, not the present.  Right now, your question isn't relevant.  It will be relevant later, and if later arrives and the bad stuff doesn't happen, then you can rightly ask why the bad stuff hasn't happened.  But not until then.

 

I don't think it's possible to give a simpler explanation.

[michael_bolton]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Shouting only shows you up.

Brexit has happened in the eyes of the market forces that govern our life's.

 

Been hearing daily the scare stories.

 

Nothing but the reverse has happened.

 

Even now a level headed poster like uly is sounding like the sun for remainers.

 

 

The EU is finished.

 

Thank fek.

 

 

Imagine if you were thinking about booking a holiday to Afghanistan, but you weren't sure. So you decided to ask some friends if they thought it was a good idea or not. All of your friends reply 'DON'T DO THAT! It's dangerous. High risk of kidnapping, suicide bombing, civil strife in general'. But you ignore them and book to go on holiday to Afghanistan in a year's time.

 

It wouldn't make sense to come back to your friends a week later and say, 'See, you said that going to Afghanistan on holiday was dangerous, but I booked it a week ago and I haven't been kidnapped yet!'.

 

That's what you're doing here.

Edited February 23, 2018 by michael_bolton

[jake]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

But you just did.  In fact, every time you get a sensible explanation of the facts you just do.  You ignore the information put in front of you, move the goalposts, and pretend to be discussing a different question.

 

You asked why the bad stuff hasn't happened.  You seem to think that because it hasn't happened that's some kind of proof that Brexit won't do you any harm.  But you haven't actually Brexited yet.  You're still in the EU.  You still have all the advantages of barrier-free trade.  Therefore the bad stuff can't have happened yet.

 

Brexit is in the future, jake, not the present.  Right now, your question isn't relevant.  It will be relevant later, and if later arrives and the bad stuff doesn't happen, then you can rightly ask why the bad stuff hasn't happened.  But not until then.

 

I don't think it's possible to give a simpler explanation.

What exactly do you mean?

 

☺

[jake]

2 hours ago, michael_bolton said:

 

Imagine if you were thinking about booking a holiday to Afghanistan, but you weren't sure. So you decided to ask some friends if they thought it was a good idea or not. All of your friends reply 'DON'T DO THAT! It's dangerous. High risk of kidnapping, suicide bombing, civil strife in general'. But you ignore them and book to go on holiday to Afghanistan in a year's time.

 

It wouldn't make sense to come back to your friends a week later and say, 'See, you said that going to Afghanistan on holiday was dangerous, but I booked it a week ago and I haven't been kidnapped yet!'.

 

That's what you're doing here.

But my friends have been constantly telling me that not only will I be k8dnapped but that the taxi to the airport will be driven by a suicide bomber.

That even if I make it to the airport my wallet will be stolen.

That the breakfast if available will give me food poisoning and lastly if suffering from the skits there will be no toilet paper.

Oh and I will be a racist.

 

I do accept you and Ulysses argument though.

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, michael_bolton said:

 

Imagine if you were thinking about booking a holiday to Afghanistan, but you weren't sure. So you decided to ask some friends if they thought it was a good idea or not. All of your friends reply 'DON'T DO THAT! It's dangerous. High risk of kidnapping, suicide bombing, civil strife in general'. But you ignore them and book to go on holiday to Afghanistan in a year's time.

 

It wouldn't make sense to come back to your friends a week later and say, 'See, you said that going to Afghanistan on holiday was dangerous, but I booked it a week ago and I haven't been kidnapped yet!'.

 

That's what you're doing here.

 

Couldn't have put it better.

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, jake said:

Shouting only shows you up.

Brexit has happened in the eyes of the market forces that govern our life's.

 

Been hearing daily the scare stories.

 

Nothing but the reverse has happened.

 

Even now a level headed poster like uly is sounding like the sun for remainers.

 

 

The EU is finished.

 

Thank fek.

 

 

1. We haven't left yet. We haven't negotiated a deal yet. Therefore we do not yet know what our future relationship will be like.

 

If we crash out with no deal like some want it'll be a disaster. The government's handling of this is a shambles - Bojo and Davis made speeches this week neither of which made any real suggestion of what we want. If we don't know what we want we can't suggest these things to the EU to negotiate a deal. 

 

The government is failing the nation here.

 

2. No it is not. Which other nations have followed us up? Even euroskeptic nationalists in the Netherlands, France and Germany have began dropping pledges on leaving the EU. 

[JamboX2]

7 hours ago, jake said:

So our government is less tolerant than how many member states of the EU.

Please state figures regarding foreign aid and please I'd like to know how the UK comes out ahead of every country bar one in civil liberty and social political inclusion and is ranked 14th in the world as such.

 

You really need a reality check.

 

Lord Dubs amendments on allowing more child refugees from Calais in... rejected.

 

Refusing to take more Syrian refugees in to the UN and taking a token amount in.

 

Evictions of families from the UK by the government with little recourse to appeal.

 

All this is happening now Jake. Read a newspaper or watch the reports of this on Dispatches and Panorama etc.

 

Britain is a free, democratic nation. Yes. It's people claim to be tolerant. Yes. But it's current Tory government is running a very strong anti-immigration set of policies which are stoked by the right-wing press. 

 

Again - separate nation from people and both from government when you think of these things.

[Francis Albert]

We were of course told by the Remain side before the referendum that a leave vote would have immediate consequences when everyone knew that we would not immediately leave. The Chancellor of the Exchequer backed by the "independent" advice of the Treasury and Bank of England forecast an immediate recession requiring an immediate emergency budget, not after we left but after we voted. (In fact we were earlier told that merely holding a vote would cause serious damage to the economy).

 

Of course bad things will happen if we leave without a deal and/or without a transition (in fact no deal implies no transition). But bad things will happen not just to the UK but to the EU. To name but two the German car industry will be unable to sell cars in its second largest market. European industry and governments will not have access to what has been its major source of external finance since long before we joined the EU. I could go on with a mirror "Project Fear II" to that posted earlier.

 

That is why there will be a deal.

 

 

[jake]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Lord Dubs amendments on allowing more child refugees from Calais in... rejected.

 

Refusing to take more Syrian refugees in to the UN and taking a token amount in.

 

Evictions of families from the UK by the government with little recourse to appeal.

 

All this is happening now Jake. Read a newspaper or watch the reports of this on Dispatches and Panorama etc.

 

Britain is a free, democratic nation. Yes. It's people claim to be tolerant. Yes. But it's current Tory government is running a very strong anti-immigration set of policies which are stoked by the right-wing press. 

 

Again - separate nation from people and both from government when you think of these things.

Vote snp then .

Independent Scotland will reflect our pchyche as a nation better.

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, jake said:

Vote snp then .

Independent Scotland will reflect our pchyche as a nation better.

 

No. Because I don't believe that would happen either.

[jambo lodge]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

We were of course told by the Remain side before the referendum that a leave vote would have immediate consequences when everyone knew that we would not immediately leave. The Chancellor of the Exchequer backed by the "independent" advice of the Treasury and Bank of England forecast an immediate recession requiring an immediate emergency budget, not after we left but after we voted. (In fact we were earlier told that merely holding a vote would cause serious damage to the economy).

 

Of course bad things will happen if we leave without a deal and/or without a transition (in fact no deal implies no transition). But bad things will happen not just to the UK but to the EU. To name but two the German car industry will be unable to sell cars in its second largest market. European industry and governments will not have access to what has been its major source of external finance since long before we joined the EU. I could go on with a mirror "Project Fear II" to that posted earlier.

 

That is why there will be a deal.

 

 

Far to sensible for all the Remoaners on here.

[SectionDJambo]

In my opinion, nobody, and that includes the UK government and opposition, or the EU main players, have a definite idea of how leaving the EU is going to affect us. 

It was a referendum held, mainly, to try to quiet Conservatives who had been agitating for us to leave for years, causing internal grief for the Conservative Party. There were lies and counter lies, in a campaign which had little to do with what may or may not be good for the future of this country, and more to do with political points scoring or self interest.

Cameron opened the door and then resigned once the wind caught it and blew it off. Corbyn just did nothing either way, and watched things unfold. Farage is taking a huge pay off from the EU when we leave, which he didn’t reveal until we’ll after the referendum. Johnston and Gove were just opportunists, who both got their fingers burned, and then turned against each other. Nobody painted the £350m NHS bus. It just sneaked up behind everyone.

The EU has behaved, over many years, like it could do what it wanted, and never seriously thought that the UK would not vote to stay in. Now they are lining up to fight each other over the spoils of the increased interest in companies and financial houses moving out of the UK, into continental Europe, after the deed is done.

The whole bunch of them, here and in Europe, are like a barrel of monkeys. No respect for their citizens and not fit to be in the positions they are in.

And not a clue, or care, about the potential mess they may leave behind, here and in Europe, due to them still behaving like the aforementioned monkeys.