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How big a mess is it?


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2 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

To say anything other than we are in deep shit is to bury one's head in the sand.

 

 

Yes great post , thanks. We’re still in administration? We couldn’t get the funds for a new stand? The fans have deserted us? We’re in deep shit? Take your head out of wherever it is and I don’t want to type where I think it is!!!!!

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Our forwards can score.

The defence is (not quite) as strong as the old castle rock.

 

It's the midfield linking them that's the huge problem.

Throw in 2 creative, attack minded central midfielders and things on the pitch should improve. 

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pattythejambo
4 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

This is sanity! 

Yes a lot of good points are made but if true Jambos of the future are not wanting to go and watch that style of football , where will that leave us in years to come as they are our future.

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7 minutes ago, pattythejambo said:

Yes a lot of good points are made but if true Jambos of the future are not wanting to go and watch that style of football , where will that leave us in years to come as they are our future.

 

Well said patty.

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1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

I went to the game on Sunday stone cold sober (trust me never again!) and I really focused on the game and had a player cam thing going on.  The lack of understanding was so apparent as we struggled to connect any passes.  Players just don’t read each other.  Even Isma and Lafferty who are two good players are entirely individual.  Have they ever assisted each other all season?  All their goals are solo efforts it seems.  Our midfield win and create next to nothing and the defence just punt it up instantly as they have not got the confidence to build on the ball.

I don’t think we combine that well across various areas.

 

Theres not one area only to blame but our full backs need to play a better role in getting us up the park and into dangerous areas.

 

Overlapping seems a rarity and Smith being the main culprit. Maybe he’s instructed not to? I’m not sure?

 

But then you look at the midfield. As Jambo92 points out we lack the cunning and drive from midfield in key moments. A player who has good timing and can elude the opposition to find space.

 

Its all a bit limited just now and people will point to other facets we are lacking within our team.

 

We do have some good players though. They need complimented with other good players.

 

 

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1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

I went to the game on Sunday stone cold sober (trust me never again!) and I really focused on the game and had a player cam thing going on.  The lack of understanding was so apparent as we struggled to connect any passes.  Players just don’t read each other.  Even Isma and Lafferty who are two good players are entirely individual.  Have they ever assisted each other all season?  All their goals are solo efforts it seems.  Our midfield win and create next to nothing and the defence just punt it up instantly as they have not got the confidence to build on the ball.

I agree with some of what your saying, but Robbie tried to get players starting to build the play from the back and the crowd got restless if the ball was not up front in 3 passes. Isma and Lafferty to a lesser extent never seem to move into space or take a chance running into channels to give our midfield options for a pass. Watching PSG last night made a passing game look simple where everyone wanted the ball running into space for teammates to make an easy pass and constant movement off the ball. Now I’m aware our players are miles behind that level but as professional footballers they are the basics of the game. We desperately need a proper left back a wide man to hug the touch line and Modric ? in the middle of the Park.

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2 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

 

Nonsense

We have a good back line bar a left back, a below SPFL average midfield and a above average strike force.  8 out of the 12 teams in the league would swap their squad for ours right now.  We have gone through turmoil, we have played one game at home and are only 2 points off the top 6.  Patience is required but we are not far away from a good side. 

 

Our midfield isn't great but I'd say it's still well above the SPFL average.

 

1 hour ago, tian447 said:

 

It's frustrating because for years we've said the same about strikers. We now have 2 great strikers up front and no-one good enough to actually play the ball into them :(

 

We have two good forwards. I wouldn't really call either of them strikers. If Goncalves could finish easy chances like he sticks away 25-yard screamers we would be laughing. Lafferty is never going to score a huge number of goals but he'll be a good player if we have a cohesive unit around him.

 

The squad is horribly imbalanced at the moment, we obviously require a left back and wingers. Other teams will know that and one concern is we will end up with more dross as we're priced out of the market.

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22 minutes ago, Independence said:

Yes great post , thanks. We’re still in administration? We couldn’t get the funds for a new stand? The fans have deserted us? We’re in deep shit? Take your head out of wherever it is and I don’t want to type where I think it is!!!!!

 

The Club is in a great position OFF the park - ON the park we are a bit of a mess which is the point of the title of this thread is it not?

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21 minutes ago, Independence said:

Yes great post , thanks. We’re still in administration? We couldn’t get the funds for a new stand? The fans have deserted us? We’re in deep shit? Take your head out of wherever it is and I don’t want to type where I think it is!!!!!

 

 

In English pelase?

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2 or 3 of the right players allowing players we have to play in their proper positions and we'll be alright till the summer IMO. What concerns me is getting the right players. We can't afford to screw up this window 

I'd rather 3 that we need than 6 or 7 untried types

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Captain America

On paper we are not that bad. Missing a few components ( LB and few in middle of park)

 

But football is not played on paper.

 

We are slow to 2nd balls, decision making from most of our team is shocking, seem to always pick wrong pass.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dr Ian Malcolm said:

We're seventh, two points off the top six having played one actual home game all season. Some common sense additions and a bit of confidence returning should see things improve.

 

Just as the initial upturn in results didn't mean we were great, we're not now plummeting towards a relegation battle with no hope of ever winning again. Dramatic overreactions either way is what happens on here though.

 

2 hours ago, August Landmesser said:

In the recent Olden Days (late 80s, most of the Pieman era, and post-2007) when we had shite seasons on the pitch, we were also in a shambles off the pitch - debt, boardroom turmoil, no forward planning (apart from 'we will win the champions league!!') and next to no investment in ground, facilities or youth teams. AB said herself, the club was hollowed out when she arrived - barely hanging on by our fingernails.

 

Now, we're having a ropey season (so far) on the pitch - but the off-pitch stuff is pretty rock solid. We're stable, we have a sane chairperson, we have a great stadium (improving daily) which will earn us money, and we have brilliant community engagement, youth facilities and player development plans. We also have the FoH. That off-pitch stability is here to stay, whilst on the pitch we can (and will) only get better (well, technically we could get relegated, but I really doubt that will happen...)

 

So, I would say it's not that big a mess - we may not have much to cheer about this season on the field (bar the odd result, and hopefully at least three Derby wins), but we've set up a great foundation for the future.

 

The people losing their minds on here are over-reacting massively, and are either seeking attention or have some weird agenda against club legend CL and/or club saviour AB.

 

Great posts.

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joondalupjambo

I am thinking we will only be in a big mess if we get relegated this season.  

If we don't, we can build again, change things for the better on the playing side and then with good financial nous and an excellent stadium we move forwards.

No?

 

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All Out Attack

Shambles is an understatement. On field we are just 7 points off bottom and having to play kids years before they are ready. Eye bleeding hoofball prevails on the park and we still have no left back, pace or quality wide men. 

 

Off field, we are still spending a small fortune on trainee coaches, for no reason other than Levein's vanity project. When is this going to be addressed... The club must know supporters will not stand for another manager imposition or Levein going back upstairs.

 

Once again we are making the same mistakes we made with Cathro, by holding onto dead wood too long. 

 

Motherwell and Killie have been transformed by new managers, yet we are still enduring pain and the apprentice manager scheme. 

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30 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

The Club is in a great position OFF the park - ON the park we are a bit of a mess which is the point of the title of this thread is it not?

A bit of a mess as you say, however a left back, one or two midfield players and possibly a quick wide player (if Milinkovic doesn't work) and we're fine.

 

Sevco for instance, now that's what you call a mess.

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2 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

I am thinking we will only be in a big mess if we get relegated this season.  

If we don't, we can build again, change things for the better on the playing side and then with good financial nous and an excellent stadium we move forwards.

No?

 

 

Yep, but important to stay competitive over the coming weeks, it will be hard to entice players to sign in January if we are languishing say 10 points off the top 6.  Very important we get right behind the team over the coming weeks and try and get a high points tally from our run of home games - I frankly don't care just now how sexy the football is, would much prefer the points, once the squad is in place then we can ask questions about the quality of the football.

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9 minutes ago, All Out Attack said:

Shambles is an understatement. On field we are just 7 points off bottom and having to play kids years before they are ready. Eye bleeding hoofball prevails on the park and we still have no left back, pace or quality wide men. 

 

Off field, we are still spending a small fortune on trainee coaches, for no reason other than Levein's vanity project. When is this going to be addressed... The club must know supporters will not stand for another manager imposition or Levein going back upstairs.

 

Once again we are making the same mistakes we made with Cathro, by holding onto dead wood too long. 

 

Motherwell and Killie have been transformed by new managers, yet we are still enduring pain and the apprentice manager scheme. 

 

:rofl:

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8 minutes ago, All Out Attack said:

Shambles is an understatement. On field we are just 7 points off bottom and having to play kids years before they are ready. Eye bleeding hoofball prevails on the park and we still have no left back, pace or quality wide men. 

 

Off field, we are still spending a small fortune on trainee coaches, for no reason other than Levein's vanity project. When is this going to be addressed... The club must know supporters will not stand for another manager imposition or Levein going back upstairs.

 

Once again we are making the same mistakes we made with Cathro, by holding onto dead wood too long. 

 

Motherwell and Killie have been transformed by new managers, yet we are still enduring pain and the apprentice manager scheme. 

Shambles is an understatement for your post but well done for trying.

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I have said it before but the summer transfers made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Cathro talked a good game, he talked about an expansive passing game, playing the ball from the back, with a high energy approach. 

There is nothing to suggest that any of the players he brought in can play the game this way. In fact in all his transfer activities the only pkayer he signed who fit this remit was Tzolis and he couldn't be f###ed with being here. 

 

If we had signed players to play the game this way we would have much more about us in midfield, instead of the gaping chasm between defence and Laffertys head.

 

What we do have however, is the base to build on! Now that may sound foolish given what I have just said but goalkeeper is decent (if unspectacular)  Berra is outstanding,  Souttar will improve and if he can get the errors our of the way he has loads of potential. Right back.....Smith will do and hopefully Brandon is the future. Up front we are fine, Lafferty and Isma are not a partnership but we are hardly playing to eithers abilities right now. 

 

We desperately need a left back, we need width but most importantly someone to put their foot on the ball in midfield and somebody to out their foot through the ball too. 

 

Not sure Djoum cares enough about his performance, walkers head went 6 months ago and Cowie... Well he runs a lot.  We are a left back and at least 3-4 players short in midfield of being a decent team.

 

 

Or maybe I am wrong and we are doooooooooooooooomed

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Isma and Lafferty are the only two guys scoring in the team.

 

Take a look at their goals though, they are all screamers or deflections.

 

There is no build up play creating any type of normal goals.

 

We desperately need two midfielders and a pacey winger as well as a left back obviously.

 

We then might start scoring goals as part of good moves and good football but that's not going to happen with our current crop of sh**e in midfield

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1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

 

The Club is in a great position OFF the park - ON the park we are a bit of a mess which is the point of the title of this thread is it not?

 

It was more to open up a discussion on if we are really all that bad on the park and if a bad season (or technically 2 I suppose following last year) is all that much of an issue in the long run.

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A_A wehatethehibs

The spine of the team is McLaughlin Berra Cowie/Djoum Lafferty/Isma that’s as strong a spine as there is in the division. Or at least it should be... but very few of them appear to have much of a close relationship with each other, it just feels like they aren’t good mates with each other, the team spirit is lacking, over and above any gaps in terms of individual positions. the confidence in one another just seems to have remained low, for the whole of 2017. The midfielders are all so cautious, few of them take any risks

 

so it’s a lot more complicated than just “sign a couple of individuals”, to build those relationships in a team, you need characters who will make the existing squad members play better. I think that’s what the callachan signing was about, a lad for whom playing for Hearts is the pinnacle, you see what it was about, but sadly he is struggling.

 

Very difficult job and time will tell if levein can inspire the change in the spirit our squad thats needed to turn themselves into a team. It’s the existing players we need to see a difference in as much as we need new guys to come in and have an impact.

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Just now, Independence said:

Another great post!

 

 

Ha. I type too quick. I'll have chips with the egg on my face.

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Captain America
6 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

The spine of the team is McLaughlin Berra Cowie/Djoum Lafferty/Isma that’s as strong a spine as there is in the division. Or at least it should be... but very few of them appear to have much of a close relationship with each other, it just feels like they aren’t good mates with each other, the team spirit is lacking, over and above any gaps in terms of individual positions. the confidence in one another just seems to have remained low, for the whole of 2017. The midfielders are all so cautious, few of them take any risks

 

so it’s a lot more complicated than just “sign a couple of individuals”, to build those relationships in a team, you need characters who will make the existing squad members play better. I think that’s what the callachan signing was about, a lad for whom playing for Hearts is the pinnacle, you see what it was about, but sadly he is struggling.

 

Very difficult job and time will tell if levein can inspire the change in the spirit our squad thats needed to turn themselves into a team. It’s the existing players we need to see a difference in as much as we need new guys to come in and have an impact.

 

The bit in bold is evident with Lafferty & Isma.

 

Pair seem to take huffs when other doesn't pass to them. Doesn't seem like any relationship between them. Frustrating as individually they are more than good enough for this level.

 

 

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From all the comments i read on here and the match reports from various sources, the common theme seems to be that most of the players are ok but the team performances are abysmal.  And that has been going on for far too long.

 

If all that is fairly accurate I'd love to know what the solution is.  If we did get new coaches would they be any better than the ones we've got now?

 

We just never seem to improve and that's a huge concern.

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How big a mess is it????

 

With the squad we’ve got on paper we should be 7-10 points better off than we are, unfortunately the game isn’t played there.

 

Yes, we’ve had a rough time with injuries especially in midfield but that has only highlighted the lack of depth in the squad and how poor some of our signings have been. 

 

We had a run of 6 home fixtures that in most seasons gone, I’d have been looking for us to have taken at least 13 points from them. We’ve started by taking 1 point from 6 from it playing pretty grim football and appearing to lack the stomach for a fight. 

 

We may only be 2 points off top 6 but we are also only 5 points above play off spot.

 

Our next 4 games will be season defining. 3 of them are against teams that know how to scrap and fight. Anything less than 9 points and we are in a mess as the 4 games after are extremely tough with Celtic and away trips to grounds that recent history shows we have poor results at. Less than 9 will leave us about 10th going into the winter break. 

 

We we lack creativity, width, pace, and fight in the middle of the park. We have no one driving us on from there. We need a Gary Mackay/Mickey Cameron type player, winger in the mound of Willie Johnston/John Colquhoun/Neil McCann/Cesnauskis, a holding midfielder in the mould (unfortunately) of Scott Brown. Most importantly though we need the team to lo9 like a team and not 11 guys who have been given a jersey on Saturday and have never seen each other before. While we have got things right in some areas since admin, the one thing I’ve always felt is that if teams scrap with us, we lack the stomach for it which is something I’ve not seen from us in a long time. Left back is a problem but you can get away with it if your midfield is decent. As ours lacks anything, playing a dodgy left back leaves them exposed. In Jamie Brandon we have someone who looks like he can pick a pass. With a midfield that works and has energy, he will be a key component of a midfield. Unfortunately with a  midfield as static as ours is, he’s being made to look complete pony. He gets the ball and wants to make a pass yet no one is looking for it or making a run for him. Consequently he’s getting muscled off the ball by taking too long on it.

 

Get the 3 starting midfielders in there that we have desperately needed for a while and we can change our style of play. The forwards we have need decent service to make them more effective. An out and out wide player who can beat a man and cross a ball improves is no end as both KL and IG would thrive with that bit of quality.

 

 

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3 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

How big a mess is it?...a difficult question. If we consider the most recent 25 years (roughly a generation) then we are 6 points off our average position of 5th. I have of course excluded the 12/13 to 14/15 seasons when you could argue that we really were in a mess!!!

 

Infrastructure = best we have had in my lifetime.

Financial = most secure we have been in my lifetime.

On Field = 6 points off our average position.

 

Yes, the football is pants at the moment but we are not light years away from anyone, we are not putting our heads in the sand and we are not facing years in the wilderness.

 

So how big a mess is it?.....6 points, or in other words not that big a mess at all.

So we should really all be pretty happy with what is being given to us at present, no?

 

You also fail to mention that we have not done anything at all in any of the cups since we came out of admin. For a club of our size, the cups are vital and our failure in each and every single campaign is unacceptable. 

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3 hours ago, pattythejambo said:

Yes a lot of good points are made but if true Jambos of the future are not wanting to go and watch that style of football , where will that leave us in years to come as they are our future.

 

With respect I think you're being a little dramatic. The style of football currently is poor but give Levein January at least. 

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Bazzas right boot
2 hours ago, All Out Attack said:

Shambles is an understatement. On field we are just 7 points off bottom and having to play kids years before they are ready. Eye bleeding hoofball prevails on the park and we still have no left back, pace or quality wide men. 

 

Off field, we are still spending a small fortune on trainee coaches, for no reason other than Levein's vanity project. When is this going to be addressed... The club must know supporters will not stand for another manager imposition or Levein going back upstairs.

 

Once again we are making the same mistakes we made with Cathro, by holding onto dead wood too long. 

 

Motherwell and Killie have been transformed by new managers, yet we are still enduring pain and the apprentice manager scheme. 

 

The computer says no.

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There are many problems with the current side. However, the critical questions are can we fix them? Do you trust the people within the football department to identify the correct players to get us out of this mess? Time will tell.

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The 13,000 plus season ticket holders are a good positive, most will renew.  The main difficulty being finance being directed into the stand, for the next few years.  The infield talent is limited, meaning several players required = extra revenue streams necessary.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bowmans_Boot said:

So we should really all be pretty happy with what is being given to us at present, no?

 

You also fail to mention that we have not done anything at all in any of the cups since we came out of admin. For a club of our size, the cups are vital and our failure in each and every single campaign is unacceptable. 

 

No, we should be performing better and a couple of places higher up the league. The thread asked how much of a mess we are in, my own view is that we are not in that much of a mess. Others on the thread have identified the gaps that we need to correct to move up the table.

 

With regard to performance in the cups post admin we have lost to Celtic twice, St Johnstone away, Hibs twice and the farce that was our group campaign this year. One manager has been sacked, part of a collective result of Hibs and the league cup group, should we get him back so we can sack him again so he really gets the message or was the sacking just part of our club 'cleaning up the mess'?

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How big a mess is it? On a scale of 1-10, 1 being letting your club die and 10 being Celtic, I'd say a 5. Since I've followed the club we've been from 2 to 8. The highest and lowest both under Romanov. 

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Probably been said but I can’t be hooped reading all the posts...

 

For me our squad is mostly a mix of players not good enough to play at this level and players seeking an easy ride at the end of the careers.

 

Thankfully squads evolve quite quickly these days so hopefully we can shift out the deadwood and these promising yoofs into the team. 

 

However, what I really crave is a rudi-style fan favourite!

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14 minutes ago, JamboGraham said:

 

No, we should be performing better and a couple of places higher up the league. The thread asked how much of a mess we are in, my own view is that we are not in that much of a mess. Others on the thread have identified the gaps that we need to correct to move up the table.

 

With regard to performance in the cups post admin we have lost to Celtic twice, St Johnstone away, Hibs twice and the farce that was our group campaign this year. One manager has been sacked part of a collective result of Hibs and the league cup group, should we get him back so we can sack him again so he really gets the message or was the sacking just part of our club 'cleaning up the mess'?

As I said: you do not think it is that bad at all as we should only be a couple of places higher in the league.

 

Unfortunately, I do not think this run of home games is going to produce the WWWWW stats that many predicted, thus we will be more than a couple of places short of "where we should be". This is why many people are worried about the state of the team. 

 

Regarding cups, you seem to view St Johnstone away and Hibs at home as tremendously tricky draws. I don't share that view. As a club we seem to dismiss the cups and see them as a distraction from playing the giants of Ross Co, Killie etc in the league. We cannot win the league, getting in to the EL group stages is becoming increasingly difficult, we get absolutely hammered by Celtic in every game (and accept it as the norm) and so the only real chance of success/excitement for the fans is doing well in the cups. As a club, and as a support, we need to get our apetite for this back. 

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Bridge of Djoum

Thank God someone started a thread on how badly we are playing right now. I thought it was just me that was seeing it.

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10 minutes ago, No Wing Mirrors on Trains. said:

Thank God someone started a thread on how badly we are playing right now. I thought it was just me that was seeing it.

 

It’s great that we now have a place to discuss it.

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Bridge of Djoum
2 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

It’s great that we now have a place to discuss it.

Right?

 

My therapist was getting tired of me heaping my Hearts woes onto him. He asked if there was a forum or some kind of group I could repeatedly share my views, I couldn't think of a single place to go. This has given me the confidence and strength to open up and discuss how poorly my team are playing.

 

Thank you, OP. 

 

 

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Since we got promoted we've been getting worse season after season, that downward trajectory will only continue unless there is wholesale changes on the running of the football side of the club, forget throwing more players at it, we need a good manager to come in with his own staff and totally change the mentality and the rock bottom confidence of the players.

 

That can be done but I fear it won't.

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Just now, No Wing Mirrors on Trains. said:

Right?

 

My therapist was getting tired of me heaping my Hearts woes onto him. He asked if there was a forum or some kind of group I could repeatedly share my views, I couldn't think of a single place to go. This has given me the confidence and strength to open up and discuss how poorly my team are playing.

 

Thank you, OP. 

 

 

 

I blame the Kickback Boot Room. The Admins are trying to develop young trainee threads that all play out the same way as the main thread. 

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Bridge of Djoum
7 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

I blame the Kickback Boot Room. The Admins are trying to develop young trainee threads that all play out the same way as the main thread. 

Well that's fair enough then. At least the repetition will not be in vain.

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7 hours ago, argyjambo said:

Another thread merely repeating a topic discussed on several other threads, predictable tiresome utterances from the usual suspects.

To put it mildly.

If all of us were in the boozer there's no doubt some would be getting telt tae shut the fek up.

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20 minutes ago, No Wing Mirrors on Trains. said:

Right?

 

My therapist was getting tired of me heaping my Hearts woes onto him. He asked if there was a forum or some kind of group I could repeatedly share my views, I couldn't think of a single place to go. This has given me the confidence and strength to open up and discuss how poorly my team are playing.

 

Thank you, OP. 

 

 

 

You're welcome

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