Beast Boy Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Very opaque Some might say 'dodgy' Others might say Ponzi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boof Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 On 21/11/2017 at 18:35, Perth to Paisley said: Fancy going to the AGM ... any idea what evidence I need to get in? Share certificate is framed and on the wall in the west wing ?⚽️?? I appreciate it may be of little use as, presumably, most folk will have their own voting cards, but I have 4 going spare if anybody wants one to gain access to the AGM. Just fire a PM and I'll send it/them on. Don't try and claim to be me though if you ask a bawbaggy question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Footballfirst said: Just a bit of perspective about FOH and the "wee team" equivalent, HSL. Hibs accounts, published earlier this week, confirm that £150,000 was raised from new shares in the last financial year. HSL has 1,650 contributors. FOH raised ten times as much over the same period and has circa 8,000 contributors. 5 times as many fans putting in 10 times as much - we're actually magnificent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Very opaque Some might say 'dodgy' Celtic fans might say something along the lines of: It is difficult to fathom the motive behind who would make such a donation unless of course they have something to hide and want to remain out of the spotlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Celtic fans might say something along the lines of: It is difficult to fathom the motive behind who would make such a donation unless of course they have something to hide and want to remain out of the spotlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 It's interesting how many on .net try to fudge this when it is clear that FoH is massively more successful than their scheme. The part they just don't understand is how good thousands of people like me feel every month when the payment is made. It's also a real bonanza for us exiles who don't support the club financially in any other way. I trust another £1,000,000 wiill be handed over at half time at one of our friends forthcoming visits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 5 hours ago, Boof said: I appreciate it may be of little use as, presumably, most folk will have their own voting cards, but I have 4 going spare if anybody wants one to gain access to the AGM. Just fire a PM and I'll send it/them on. Don't try and claim to be me though if you ask a bawbaggy question Craig, A bloke in the pub told me you...... Last years classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesie27 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Just as an aside it seems Hibs accounts confirms they got 500k for Cummings sale. Weren't they offered 2 million previously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolcross lad Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 10 hours ago, Footballfirst said: You are not wrong if you consider the one-off purchases outside HSL. Since HSL and the separate share offer schemes started in January 2015, their shareholder list now contains 18 "nominee" companies, which at the last count (end of December 2016) held more than 13% of the club's shares, i.e. more than HSL. The faceless nominee companies go under the guise of the following names: Bass Rock Investments Edinburgh Investments Hilton Park Nominees Leith Walk Nominees Redwood Nominees Water of Leith Nominees Almond Investments Duddingston Nominees East Lothian Nominees Forth Bridge Investments North Berwick Investments Wellington Nominees Arthur Seat Nominees First Choice Nominees Scotland Street Nominees London Nominees Turnstile Investments Value Investments It's all a bit bizarre, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that STF or Petrie were behind some of these nominees in order to protect their investment and prevent them losing overall control in the future. (That's purely speculation on my part as I have no evidence to back it up) Are these the "names" of accounts held by stockbrokers or investment companies?Is there no regulation that requires a company to reveal who is the actual owner of these shares?It could be Romanov for all Hibs fans know otherwise.Hibs fans must surely have an idea of what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 10 hours ago, Footballfirst said: You are not wrong if you consider the one-off purchases outside HSL. Since HSL and the separate share offer schemes started in January 2015, their shareholder list now contains 18 "nominee" companies, which at the last count (end of December 2016) held more than 13% of the club's shares, i.e. more than HSL. The faceless nominee companies go under the guise of the following names: Bass Rock Investments Edinburgh Investments Hilton Park Nominees Leith Walk Nominees Redwood Nominees Water of Leith Nominees Almond Investments Duddingston Nominees East Lothian Nominees Forth Bridge Investments North Berwick Investments Wellington Nominees Arthur Seat Nominees First Choice Nominees Scotland Street Nominees London Nominees Turnstile Investments Value Investments It's all a bit bizarre, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that STF or Petrie were behind some of these nominees in order to protect their investment and prevent them losing overall control in the future. (That's purely speculation on my part as I have no evidence to back it up) FF sorry can I just run this past you to clarify as I’m a bit confused. Is it correct that STF/RP put 51% of the shares of hibs holding company up for sale (purchase price circa £2.5m) with the hope HSL would purchase them and allow hibs to become ‘fan owned’.? Approximately half of the shares available have been sold however the nominee companies you have listed above own slightly more than 50% of these sold shares. so as it stands right now STF/Petrie owns roughly 75%, HSL 12% and companies listed above 13%? sorry, lots of numbers in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 33 minutes ago, tolcross lad said: Are these the "names" of accounts held by stockbrokers or investment companies?Is there no regulation that requires a company to reveal who is the actual owner of these shares?It could be Romanov for all Hibs fans know otherwise.Hibs fans must surely have an idea of what is going on. No I don’t think there needs to be any disclosure as this is what happened with Sevco. They ended up with margarita investment and blue pitch holdings as fairly major shareholders and no one knew who was behind these investment companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolcross lad Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 26 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: No I don’t think there needs to be any disclosure as this is what happened with Sevco. They ended up with margarita investment and blue pitch holdings as fairly major shareholders and no one knew who was behind these investment companies. Thanks for the reply.If I were a Hibs fan buying shares to achieve fan ownership I would want to know who owns what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 15 minutes ago, tolcross lad said: Thanks for the reply.If I were a Hibs fan buying shares to achieve fan ownership I would want to know who owns what. Just re read some of their accounts headlines and it seems that 34% of hibs shares now owned by the ‘fans’ but only 11% owned by HSL. Reading FF’s list I would be a bit concerned that whilst STF offer to sell shares for fan ownership is fairly magnanimous it appears that HSL isn’t solely the main player in this (like FOH is with us), these other investment companies are getting in on the act. It could be nothing to get worked up about but if I was a hibs fan I would be doing some digging. However these half wits are far too busy analysing everything to do with our new stand to worry about their own club. It’s like Groundhog Day and the relegation party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorgie rd eh11 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 12 hours ago, Footballfirst said: You are not wrong if you consider the one-off purchases outside HSL. Since HSL and the separate share offer schemes started in January 2015, their shareholder list now contains 18 "nominee" companies, which at the last count (end of December 2016) held more than 13% of the club's shares, i.e. more than HSL. The faceless nominee companies go under the guise of the following names: Bass Rock Investments Edinburgh Investments Hilton Park Nominees Leith Walk Nominees Redwood Nominees Water of Leith Nominees Almond Investments Duddingston Nominees East Lothian Nominees Forth Bridge Investments North Berwick Investments Wellington Nominees Arthur Seat Nominees First Choice Nominees Scotland Street Nominees London Nominees Turnstile Investments Value Investments It's all a bit bizarre, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that STF or Petrie were behind some of these nominees in order to protect their investment and prevent them losing overall control in the future. (That's purely speculation on my part as I have no evidence to back it up) That doesn't look dodgy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: FF sorry can I just run this past you to clarify as I’m a bit confused. Is it correct that STF/RP put 51% of the shares of hibs holding company up for sale (purchase price circa £2.5m) with the hope HSL would purchase them and allow hibs to become ‘fan owned’.? Approximately half of the shares available have been sold however the nominee companies you have listed above own slightly more than 50% of these sold shares. so as it stands right now STF/Petrie owns roughly 75%, HSL 12% and companies listed above 13%? sorry, lots of numbers in there! 50 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: Just re read some of their accounts headlines and it seems that 34% of hibs shares now owned by the ‘fans’ but only 11% owned by HSL. Reading FF’s list I would be a bit concerned that whilst STF offer to sell shares for fan ownership is fairly magnanimous it appears that HSL isn’t solely the main player in this (like FOH is with us), these other investment companies are getting in on the act. It could be nothing to get worked up about but if I was a hibs fan I would be doing some digging. However these half wits are far too busy analysing everything to do with our new stand to worry about their own club. It’s like Groundhog Day and the relegation party! There were 62,500,000 shares issued at the time that HSL was set up and a general share offer commenced in January 2015. HFC Holdings (STF 90% & Petrie 10%) held over 61m of the shares (98%) with the remainder held by a number of small shareholders. The plan was to raise up to £2.5m by issuing 62,500,000 new shares at 4p a share. Once all the shares had been issued, HFC Holdings would then hold 49%, with the smaller shareholders, including HSL, holding 51%. The share offer would raise some cash fairly quickly, while HSL would raise cash for shares from fans on an ongoing basis. I don't know what time scales were anticipated, but obviously it would take several years to reach the £2.5m / 62.5m share target. At the last notification, at the end of September, approx 32.5m of the planned 62.5m shares had been issued, raising £1.3m, leaving 30m shares and £1.2m still to be raised. So with 95m shares now issued, HFC Holdings has been diluted to just under 65%, HSL have 11%, the Nominee companies 13%, with the remaining 11% in the hands of individual small shareholders. If HSL is left on its own to raise the remaining £1.2m, then it could take anything up to 8 years to do so. Therefore, it is likely that further general share offers will be made to speed up the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambali Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 How did a thread about our AGM & accounts become one about theirs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, jambali said: How did a thread about our AGM & accounts become one about theirs? Indeed, fascinating though it is, it should be on a separate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, jambali said: How did a thread about our AGM & accounts become one about theirs? I think it started with FF pointing out the differences between FOH fan ownership model and HSL. It was fair comment and emphasises how superior our fan base has been compared to that bunch of mugs? It also shows that even though they are matching our attendances atm, when it comes to commitment there is light years between the two sets of fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Still believe Dermot Desmond is way dodgier than anyone else involved in Scottish football. Opaque is a polite word to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 14 hours ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said: It wasn't just one person. It was two people from a company in town. Are they otherwise connected to Hearts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everybody Loves Baz! Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Hungry hippo said: Are they otherwise connected to Hearts? Nope. Very cryptic I know, but the two people are ST holders. And at the moment wish to remain anonymous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS86 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Appreciate all your input in this thread FF, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTBCAL Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said: Nope. Very cryptic I know, but the two people are ST holders. And at the moment wish to remain anonymous. From a financial investment company near the Playhouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everybody Loves Baz! Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 3 hours ago, PTBCAL said: From a financial investment company near the Playhouse? Aye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 hours ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said: Nope. Very cryptic I know, but the two people are ST holders. And at the moment wish to remain anonymous. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairyinthat Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi_obHsjdjXAhXD5xoKHYvPAXkQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilmacgiollabhain.ie%2F2017%2F11%2F24%2Frugger-guy-looks-at-the-annual-accounts-of-hearts%2F&usg=AOvVaw0pCzRoiRqm_mAKFA2u9Bu1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, sairyinthat said: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi_obHsjdjXAhXD5xoKHYvPAXkQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilmacgiollabhain.ie%2F2017%2F11%2F24%2Frugger-guy-looks-at-the-annual-accounts-of-hearts%2F&usg=AOvVaw0pCzRoiRqm_mAKFA2u9Bu1 Well, that made very good reading, at least to me. Wonder if FF would think the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Coburg Hearts said: Well, that made very good reading, at least to me. Wonder if FF would think the same? No complaint from me on that analysis. The rugger guy has got it pretty spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: No complaint from me on that analysis. The rugger guy has got it pretty spot on. Cheers, FF. I wasn't sure if it was too simplistic or not. Read the replies and Spike and Frank are hurting real bad. Jealousy is a terrible thing haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairyinthat Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: No complaint from me on that analysis. The rugger guy has got it pretty spot on. Laddie sent it to me from Norway.thought it worth passing on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 The comments on Phil McCropcirclesandchemtrails’ site are incredible! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 8 hours ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said: Nope. Very cryptic I know, but the two people are ST holders. And at the moment wish to remain anonymous. Then a huge, heartfelt THANK YOU to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Smithee said: Then a huge, heartfelt THANK YOU to them! Absolutely. I do think that the under the radar nature of these donations has meant that we've all been a bit guilty of overlooking the magnitude of them. £2.5m is massive for a club/business our size and allows us to be in an extremely secure starting position now that the foundations are now in place to really build the club over the short to medium term.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Smithee said: Then a huge, heartfelt THANK YOU to them! 29 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said: Absolutely. I do think that the under the radar nature of these donations has meant that we've all been a bit guilty of overlooking the magnitude of them. £2.5m is massive for a club/business our size and allows us to be in an extremely secure starting position now that the foundations are now in place to really build the club over the short to medium term.. Thank goodness some sanity remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Aberdeen has released their accounts which shows a healthy increase in turnover (and expenses). It's the sort of figures that Hearts should be aiming for over the next two or three years. https://afc.co.uk/2017/11/25/latest-accounts-show-strong-results-aberdeen-football-club/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwindonJambo Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Aberdeen has released their accounts which shows a healthy increase in turnover (and expenses). It's the sort of figures that Hearts should be aiming for over the next two or three years. https://afc.co.uk/2017/11/25/latest-accounts-show-strong-results-aberdeen-football-club/ The figure that jumps out at me is the £4,659k in commercial revenue. That’s a staggering sum (in SPFL terms) and one we need to aim to equal or beat. They’ve turned a healthy profit of half a mill too. They’re clearly a very well run operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 9 hours ago, SwindonJambo said: The figure that jumps out at me is the £4,659k in commercial revenue. That’s a staggering sum (in SPFL terms) and one we need to aim to equal or beat. They’ve turned a healthy profit of half a mill too. They’re clearly a very well run operation. I think Aberdeen classify some of their income differently from Hearts. e.g. the UEFA, Solidarity and Prize Money at £1.08m is less than half of what Hearts reported. I'm guessing that the prize money for finishing 2nd in the SPFL Premiership, will be included within "Broadcasting" as TV money or "Commercial", boosting one of those figures by over £2m. Hearts "Broadcasting" figure was £244k, so, although they featured in more cup games, I can't see how they got to £2.9m without including another income stream. The commercial figure as you say is excellent, even if it includes the SPFL cash, so their retail and catering operations must be doing very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 28 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: I think Aberdeen classify some of their income differently from Hearts. e.g. the UEFA, Solidarity and Prize Money at £1.08m is less than half of what Hearts reported. I'm guessing that the prize money for finishing 2nd in the SPFL Premiership, will be included within "Broadcasting" as TV money or "Commercial", boosting one of those figures by over £2m. Hearts "Broadcasting" figure was £244k, so, although they featured in more cup games, I can't see how they got to £2.9m without including another income stream. The commercial figure as you say is excellent, even if it includes the SPFL cash, so their retail and catering operations must be doing very well. £1m extra prize money, 2 cup finals, European football and the hates cash .. shows you how much lack of success on the pitch is costing us.. And it's a vicious circle.. look how much additional money they can invest on the pitch.. from a commercial perspective I think the difference is due to our lack of hospitality facilities .. with the news main stand I think we will surpass Aberdeen over the next few years but need to invest more on the pitch soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny1874 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 14 hours ago, Ryder said: The comments on Phil McCropcirclesandchemtrails’ site are incredible! ? I particularly enjoyed one suggesting that Hearts might have gotten the anonymous £2.5 million donation from the Scottish Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, Manny1874 said: I particularly enjoyed one suggesting that Hearts might have gotten the anonymous £2.5 million donation from the Scottish Government. That is the levels of paranoia and idiocy we are dealing with here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 It really is odd that someone appears to have donated that sum of money to the club. It isn't a small amount dripped in by direct debit - it would have been enough to buy the club just a few years ago. Who is Hearts minded and with enough money that they can dish out that amount of money with seemingly nothing in return? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 No need to worry phil whatever his name has had his expert run his eye over our accounts and all is well it seems...though if you read some of the comments you can see finance is not top of the average Celtic fans capabilities https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2017/11/24/rugger-guy-looks-at-the-annual-accounts-of-hearts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 17 minutes ago, Coco said: It really is odd that someone appears to have donated that sum of money to the club. It isn't a small amount dripped in by direct debit - it would have been enough to buy the club just a few years ago. Who is Hearts minded and with enough money that they can dish out that amount of money with seemingly nothing in return? Ann told us about the donation a year ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 13 hours ago, SwindonJambo said: The figure that jumps out at me is the £4,659k in commercial revenue. That’s a staggering sum (in SPFL terms) and one we need to aim to equal or beat. They’ve turned a healthy profit of half a mill too. They’re clearly a very well run operation. There aren't the same alternatives in Aberdeen though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Slim Stylee Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Coco said: It really is odd that someone appears to have donated that sum of money to the club. It isn't a small amount dripped in by direct debit - it would have been enough to buy the club just a few years ago. Who is Hearts minded and with enough money that they can dish out that amount of money with seemingly nothing in return? I don't think it's odd at all. Rather a testament to the ability of the CEO to maximise contacts in a quiet and efficient way. It's a different culture now from the one that surrounded the previous regimes tenure when serious Edinburgh money just ran a mile from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 1 hour ago, CJGJ said: No need to worry phil whatever his name has had his expert run his eye over our accounts and all is well it seems...though if you read some of the comments you can see finance is not top of the average Celtic fans capabilities https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2017/11/24/rugger-guy-looks-at-the-annual-accounts-of-hearts/ On the page before chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Coco said: It really is odd that someone appears to have donated that sum of money to the club. It isn't a small amount dripped in by direct debit - it would have been enough to buy the club just a few years ago. Who is Hearts minded and with enough money that they can dish out that amount of money with seemingly nothing in return? i think the owner has alot to do with that, i am lead to believe its the very reason we got the donation as there is an existing relationship there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Slim Stylee Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Jamboelite said: i think the owner has alot to do with that, i am lead to believe its the very reason we got the donation as there is an existing relationship there. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 10:10, Footballfirst said: I think Aberdeen classify some of their income differently from Hearts. e.g. the UEFA, Solidarity and Prize Money at £1.08m is less than half of what Hearts reported. I'm guessing that the prize money for finishing 2nd in the SPFL Premiership, will be included within "Broadcasting" as TV money or "Commercial", boosting one of those figures by over £2m. Hearts "Broadcasting" figure was £244k, so, although they featured in more cup games, I can't see how they got to £2.9m without including another income stream. The commercial figure as you say is excellent, even if it includes the SPFL cash, so their retail and catering operations must be doing very well. They have done well again. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42122496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.