Catalonia referendum

[Rab87]

It would seem the Spanish Government are taking real steps today, to make sure the Catalonia referendum does not take place on October 1st/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41331152

 

 

 

AFP: #BREAKING Madrid has imposed 'de facto' state of emergency in Catalonia: regional leader

 

I am not sure they are going about this the best way, especially so close to the scheduled vote.

 

 

[Rab87]

FC Barcelona wading in today...

 

https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/910462298908708864

[Cade]

 

[JamboX2]

FC Barcelona wading in today...

 

https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/910462298908708864

Take it UEFA are happy for them and Espanyol to stay in La Liga then...

[Cade]

Spain have made an erse of this.

All they had to do was to let them have the referendum then refuse to accept a bad outcome, as the referendum wasn't constitutional.

 

Instead, they've gone mental, calling up national guard units, cancelling police leave, arresting politicians and attempting to assert direct control over the region.

 

Not really the way to win hearts and minds of the Catalan people.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Spain have made an erse of this.

All they had to do was to let them have the referendum then refuse to accept a bad outcome, as the referendum wasn't constitutional.

 

Instead, they've gone mental, calling up national guard units, cancelling police leave, arresting politicians and attempting to assert direct control over the region.

 

Not really the way to win hearts and minds of the Catalan people.

 

Gorgiewave will be along in a minute to tell you off on how wrong you are. Zzz

[redjambo]

Spain have made an erse of this.

All they had to do was to let them have the referendum then refuse to accept a bad outcome, as the referendum wasn't constitutional.

 

Instead, they've gone mental, calling up national guard units, cancelling police leave, arresting politicians and attempting to assert direct control over the region.

 

Not really the way to win hearts and minds of the Catalan people.

 

I know. You'd have thought that they had forgotten all about the Basque separatist era and would do everything to avoid a repetition.

 

And that is Spain's real fear - that if the Catalonians go then it will be the catalyst for the Basques, the Balearic inhabitants, the Galicians to demand independence too.

 

Simply put, the Spanish government is scared s**tless of a Catalonian victory in the referendum, although that actually looks unlikely according to the polls, and when governments get scared, that's when the repression comes.

[JamboX2]

Spain have made an erse of this.

All they had to do was to let them have the referendum then refuse to accept a bad outcome, as the referendum wasn't constitutional.

 

Instead, they've gone mental, calling up national guard units, cancelling police leave, arresting politicians and attempting to assert direct control over the region.

 

Not really the way to win hearts and minds of the Catalan people.

It's not that simple. See this response from Spain to Fiona Hyslop:

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/spain-has-hit-back-at-the-scottish-government-after-it?utm_term=.xhRg5LpbX#.vpL4YXnAP

 

Spain's constitution (which 91% of Catalans backed) bans a seccionist/independence vote from happening. The Spanish would therefore need to amend the constitution.

 

The situation is not comparable to Scotland/UK in any sense. That doesn't preclude the ability or right to hold a vote but frankly the Catalan government is not painting itself in glory.

 

Spain may be acting tough. But is doing so within the law.

[John mcCartney]

mental stuff

people are gonna get angry over there

[Space Mackerel]

Where is our resident all Spanish right wing Tory voter who lives nowhere near Madrid?

[niblick1874]

Thought I'd give this a bump as Sunday is the day the vote, or not, is meant to happen and from what I am seeing it's a mess and there is some heavy handedness going on. 

 

I have to hold my hands up and say I am not up on this.

 

Is the hole thing illegal or is it more complex and both sides have a point?

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

Where is our resident all Spanish right wing Tory voter who lives nowhere near Madrid?

 

There will be no vote. The people responsible for this nonsense will end up in jail. Spain will remain united, as will its British ally (Gibraltar will also remain British).

 

[Boris]

Thought I'd give this a bump as Sunday is the day the vote, or not, is meant to happen and from what I am seeing it's a mess and there is some heavy handedness going on. 

 

I have to hold my hands up and say I am not up on this.

 

Is the hole thing illegal or is it more complex and both sides have a point?

It's up to the Catalonians and the Spanish state. It would appear that under the Spanish constitution separation is illegal, but when has that stopped people who feel subjugated?

[Boris]

There will be no vote. The people responsible for this nonsense will end up in jail. Spain will remain united, as will its British ally (Gibraltar will also remain British).

 

And yet you quote a separatist!

 

Irony knows no bounds.

[Gorgiewave]

And yet you quote a separatist!

 

Irony knows no bounds.

 

It was George III who broke the contract.

 

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good."

 

Just what the Catalan prats are doing.

[niblick1874]

It's up to the Catalonians and the Spanish state. It would appear that under the Spanish constitution separation is illegal, but when has that stopped people who feel subjugated?

 

Thanks. That is sounding like there's trouble ahead. I take it the polls are saying if there was/is a vote it would be to leave. 

[niblick1874]

I know. You'd have thought that they had forgotten all about the Basque separatist era and would do everything to avoid a repetition.

 

And that is Spain's real fear - that if the Catalonians go then it will be the catalyst for the Basques, the Balearic inhabitants, the Galicians to demand independence too.

 

Simply put, the Spanish government is scared s**tless of a Catalonian victory in the referendum, although that actually looks unlikely according to the polls, and when governments get scared, that's when the repression comes.

 

It's a strange one if the polls say it would not pass, but then again, who's polls are they. Is it shit stirring from those with an agenda other than what they are putting forward? 

 

It's never a good sign when one side starts putting the other side in jail.

 

Just noticed the constitutional vote was in 1978. A lot has changed in Europe since then.

[Gorgiewave]

Thanks. That is sounding like there's trouble ahead. I take it the polls are saying if there was/is a vote it would be to leave. 

No, the silent majority are bullied and called fascists. Just like in other places.

[niblick1874]

No, the silent majority are bullied and called fascists. Just like in other places.

 

Thanks, that makes cense of one or two other things. I'll have to go investigate.

[redjambo]

It's a strange one if the polls say it would not pass, but then again, who's polls are they. Is it shit stirring from those with an agenda other than what they are putting forward? 

 

It's never a good sign when one side starts putting the other side in jail.

 

Just noticed the constitutional vote was in 1978. A lot has changed in Europe since then.

 

Now that I've found additional information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_polls), I'll have to retract my previous statement! It looks as if the results of polls on independence itself have swung between the two points of view (see "On the independence issue" at the above link).

[AlphonseCapone]

It's not that simple. See this response from Spain to Fiona Hyslop:

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/spain-has-hit-back-at-the-scottish-government-after-it?utm_term=.xhRg5LpbX#.vpL4YXnAP

 

Spain's constitution (which 91% of Catalans backed) bans a seccionist/independence vote from happening. The Spanish would therefore need to amend the constitution.

 

The situation is not comparable to Scotland/UK in any sense. That doesn't preclude the ability or right to hold a vote but frankly the Catalan government is not painting itself in glory.

 

Spain may be acting tough. But is doing so within the law.

91% of Catalans in 1978. Your post is fair enough in the main but let's add important context to the statistic you have quoted.

[Boris]

It was George III who broke the contract.

 

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good."

 

Just what the Catalan prats are doing.

Id say the Spanish govt are George III here, but hey ho.

[Gorgiewave]

Id say the Spanish govt are George III here, but hey ho.

 

There is no abuse. Don't be so Romantic. The Catalan nationalists are bullshitters in the same way the SNP are: made up grievances, hallucinatory utopianism, dreams of riches, dreams of socialism, dreams of universial harmony (but hate Spain / England).

[Boris]

There is no abuse. Don't be so Romantic. The Catalan nationalists are bullshitters in the same way the SNP are: made up grievances, hallucinatory utopianism, dreams of riches, dreams of socialism, dreams of universial harmony (but hate Spain / England).

I have no opinion on either side tbh. However, if a state prevents people from doing things, there is your grievance right away. It seems to me that the Catalan govt want to ask this question, not a million miles away from John Adams and the taxation/representation payoff. Which is my point, that using John Adams in support of the Spanish govt is, IMO, ironic.

[niblick1874]

There is no abuse. Don't be so Romantic. The Catalan nationalists are bullshitters in the same way the SNP are: made up grievances, hallucinatory utopianism, dreams of riches, dreams of socialism, dreams of universial harmony (but hate Spain / England).

 

Just had a look here and there. Am I right in saying that antifa are for separating?

[niblick1874]

Now that I've found additional information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_polls), I'll have to retract my previous statement! It looks as if the results of polls on independence itself have swung between the two points of view (see "On the independence issue" at the above link).

 

Thanks. Quite the swing. Wish they could be trusted but as we have seen, they can't. It could be accurate but I have a feeling we will never know. 

[Gorgiewave]

I have no opinion on either side tbh. However, if a state prevents people from doing things, there is your grievance right away. It seems to me that the Catalan govt want to ask this question, not a million miles away from John Adams and the taxation/representation payoff. Which is my point, that using John Adams in support of the Spanish govt is, IMO, ironic.

 

The state prevents one from murdering and, on the less dramatic end of the spectrum, encroaching on the pitch, even in jubilation, or entering or attempting to enter a ground whilst in possession of a controlled container. There's nothing remarkable about the state banning something.

 

John Adams believed himself to be the inheritor of a series of rights, ultimately deriving from Magna Carta, and that George III had breached them. The Catalan government makes no such claim. It's they who are clearly breaching the Constitution, the Constitution that, incidentally, has overseen more peace and prosperity than any previous period in Spain's history and has, mostly successfully, dealt with the legacy of Francoism.

 

The attempted coup in 1981 was intended to re-establish Francoism. The king appeared on television and said, no, the Constitution will be defended. These Catalan chancers won't be allowed to piss all over this achievement.

 

Here he is, ordering the Francoist generals back to their barracks:

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Good luck to the people of Catalan and I hope you get your independence.

[Gorgiewave]

Good luck to the people of Catalan and I hope you get your independence.

Why? Only a minority of them want such a thing.

[Thumper]

 

Just what the Catalan prats are doing.

 

 

What's the airport got to do with it?

[Konrad von Carstein]

Why? Only a minority of them want such a thing.

Why do you have such a strident view on this? At the end of the day it has **** all to do with you, you are a guest in Spain at the end of the day.

[niblick1874]

Why do you have such a strident view on this? At the end of the day it has **** all to do with you, you are a guest in Spain at the end of the day.

 

Is he right? 

[Stephane Grappelli]

Is he right?

His posts certainly seem quite far to the right.

[SwindonJambo]

I was in Barcelona for the Rolling Stones Concert on Wednesday night. I'd been there for 4 days before too. Lots of flags hanging from balconies and students walking about with Catalan flags on their backs. Had no impact on me as a tourist though. I did the Nou Camp Stadium Tour on Tuesday (well worth doing btw) and hadn't previously been aware just how Political an animal the club is. Campaigning for Catalan independence has been one of its core values since the very beginning. They shove Catalan Nationalism down your throat at every opportunity. Even the wee lad who sold me my audio guide mentioned the referendum. The narratives accompanying all of the museum exhibits are full of anti Spanish grievances and amongst the club's many achievements, its supplying of nearly all of the players to the Spanish World Cup winning team of 2010 gets no mention whatsoever. Unsurprisingly, Luis Figo seems to have been airbrushed out of the club's history.... As for that Audio guide, it was nothing short of a piece of Catalan Independence propaganda and had a certain comedy value. The stadium itself is awe inspiring and it's getting a makeover soon, adding a roof. And 6,000 extra seats to take capacity up to 105,000.

 

They have basketball and futsal teams too and a huge youth setup where they 'educate' the boys and girls. No doubt that entails indoctrinating them with Catalan Independence.

 

I'm in Madrid now, having caught a coach here yesterday. Much more relaxed atmosphere here. If I get a chance, I'll do the Bernebau Tour tomorrow.

[Unknown user]

It isn't enough to say "it's the law." Laws have evolved and changed continuously through history and they should be there to suit and protect the populace, not the government. Of course people should have the right to self determination and if Catalonia votes to leave Spain, **** what the Spanish law says, they have a clear moral mandate to leave. Laws should be changed to suit people, not the other way round.

[niblick1874]

It isn't enough to say "it's the law." Laws have evolved and changed continuously through history and they should be there to suit and protect the populace, not the government. Of course people should have the right to self determination and if Catalonia votes to leave Spain, **** what the Spanish law says, they have a clear moral mandate to leave. Laws should be changed to suit people, not the other way round.

 

Although I haven't had a good look, so far there are one or two things that jump out at me. Antifa being around and in favor of separation as well as Georgiewave telling us that there is bullying by one lot that includes calling the other lot fascists is a red flag for me. 

 

Up against that, like you, not allowing a vote is not sitting well with me. More looking for me.  

[The Real Maroonblood]

Why? Only a minority of them want such a thing.

If it's a minority why is the Spanish government getting their knickers in a twist about it?

[fabienleclerq]

If the Spanish thought it was a minority theyd have nothing to fear. How can you call spain a democracy when they are arresting people for wanting a vote?

[Stephane Grappelli]

I was in Barcelona for the Rolling Stones Concert on Wednesday night. I'd been there for 4 days before too. Lots of flags hanging from balconies and students walking about with Catalan flags on their backs. Had no impact on me as a tourist though. I did the Nou Camp Stadium Tour on Tuesday (well worth doing btw) and hadn't previously been aware just how Political an animal the club is. Campaigning for Catalan independence has been one of its core values since the very beginning. They shove Catalan Nationalism down your throat at every opportunity. Even the wee lad who sold me my audio guide mentioned the referendum. The narratives accompanying all of the museum exhibits are full of anti Spanish grievances and amongst the club's many achievements, its supplying of nearly all of the players to the Spanish World Cup winning team of 2010 gets no mention whatsoever. Unsurprisingly, Luis Figo seems to have been airbrushed out of the club's history.... As for that Audio guide, it was nothing short of a piece of Catalan Independence propaganda and had a certain comedy value. The stadium itself is awe inspiring and it's getting a makeover soon, adding a roof. And 6,000 extra seats to take capacity up to 105,000.

They have basketball and futsal teams too and a huge youth setup where they 'educate' the boys and girls. No doubt that entails indoctrinating them with Catalan Independence.

I'm in Madrid now, having caught a coach here yesterday. Much more relaxed atmosphere here. If I get a chance, I'll do the Bernebau Tour tomorrow.

I'm glad you say that about the audio guide. It is extremely biased, understandably so, but a lot people now just accept their version of events as fact. They know little of Spain and it's history but just take it as read that FC Barcelona are the freedom fighting good guy's and Real Madrid are the fascist bad guys. Franco had plenty of supporters in Barcelona and even in the club itself, and it hasn't always been at the vanguard of the independence movement. In terms of PR machines, Bar?a could give Celtic a run for their money.

 

You will love Madrid. It's a great city, as is Barcelona. Unfortunately it doesn't have a beach but I think it has a more relaxed, less pretentious air than Barcelona.

 

The tour of the Bernab?u is well worth the effort.

[Ulysses]

A piece from the Guardian yesterday written by Colm Toibin.  It explains why the Spanish government might think they are right, but are doing things in a completely daft way.  It also explains why successful arguments against independence have to come from inside Catalonia, and not from the rest of Spain.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/29/colm-toibin-point-of-view-madrid-catalan-separatism

[pablo]

Catalonia is one of the more prosperous regions of Spain, isn't it?

 

Wonder if independence could see a domino effect of wealthy regions leaving their poorer neighbours behind......Bavaria, London and Edinburgh next?

[AlphonseCapone]

Catalonia is one of the more prosperous regions of Spain, isn't it?

 

Wonder if independence could see a domino effect of wealthy regions leaving their poorer neighbours behind......Bavaria, London and Edinburgh next?

London and Edinburgh aren't regions.

 

Also, there are cultural and historical differences. Basically one size doesn't fit all so no.

[doctor jambo]

Shetland goes and takes the oil

[pablo]

London and Edinburgh aren't regions.

 

Also, there are cultural and historical differences. Basically one size doesn't fit all so no.

What I'm getting at is would this "subjugating the will of the people" argument be acceptable if it was to prevent the wealthiest leaving?

[doctor jambo]

What I'm getting at is would this "subjugating the will of the people" argument be acceptable if it was to prevent the wealthiest leaving?

Of course not "independence " is the clarion call of the poor oppressed.

[pablo]

Of course not "independence " is the clarion call of the poor oppressed.

That's certainly the narrative we've been given locally. But what if it's not everywhere in the future? Do the same arguments about the will of the people apply?

 

Is it even any of our business? I'd say not.

[SwindonJambo]

Of course not "independence " is the clarion call of the poor oppressed.

I have to say that walking around the streets of Barcelona earlier in the week, I saw far more Catalan flags being hung from balconies in poorer parts of the city than richer ones. Incidence was at its very highest around the environs of the Nou Camp, which is a pretty run down area. I didn't see one Spanish flag anywhere in the city in 4 days there yet you have to guess that those homes not hanging flags are overwhelmingly supportive of remaining with Spain, as opinion polls consistently show. A large vocal, just in the minority group stomping around shouting to anyone who'll listen about their voting intentions whilst the passive silent majority disagree. Whatever cause you support in life, if you stomp around waving flags and placards and bellowing your views to anyone in earshot, you still only get 1 vote, the same as the quiet person next door who never discusses politics. Funny that.

 

That all said, The Spanish Government have handled all this very poorly (imho). It's the business of the Catalan people only. 7.5m people is more than the population of many European countries, including Scotland.

 

Glad I left town on Thursday morning as you get the feeling things may soon turn nasty. I'm now in Madrid, which i think is a lovely city with zero tension. Much prefer it to Barca.

[AlphonseCapone]

What I'm getting at is would this "subjugating the will of the people" argument be acceptable if it was to prevent the wealthiest leaving?

I think looking at self-determination through the lense of only finance (richer or poorer) isn't what the main purpose should be. But it is made that way by the powers that be.

 

Essentially every group of people (at what ever level of organisation they wish) have the right to determine who makes the decisions on their behalf (whether it is seen to protect wealth or create it). We seem to have it drilled into us the level of nation should be protected above all else but most current nations on this earth didn't exist 350 years ago, or their names and borders have changed.

 

History, culture and family ties will usually determine the level of organisation but it isn't a requirement.

 

As an aside I find the Spanish mentality on a lot of matters quite frankly ridiculous. They greet about Gibraltar despite having had a great empire themselves and still have an enclave on the Moroccan mainland. The ancestors of Spanish colonists greet about the Falkland islands and the rights to land as though they aren't land grabbers themselves. They are a pretty deplorable state.

[SwindonJambo]

I think looking at self-determination through the lense of only finance (richer or poorer) isn't what the main purpose should be. But it is made that way by the powers that be.

Essentially every group of people (at what ever level of organisation they wish) have the right to determine who makes the decisions on their behalf (whether it is seen to protect wealth or create it). We seem to have it drilled into us the level of nation should be protected above all else but most current nations on this earth didn't exist 350 years ago, or their names and borders have changed.

History, culture and family ties will usually determine the level of organisation but it isn't a requirement.

As an aside I find the Spanish mentality on a lot of matters quite frankly ridiculous. They greet about Gibraltar despite having had a great empire themselves and still have an enclave on the Moroccan mainland. The ancestors of Spanish colonists greet about the Falkland islands and the rights to land as though they aren't land grabbers themselves. They are a pretty deplorable state.

I must admit that the Argentinians' claim on the Falklands gets right on my tits, especially given that they're almost wholly descendants of Colonists from Spain and to a lesser degree Italy. The original inhabitants were probably barbarically slaughtered or displaced. By them.

[JamboX2]

91% of Catalans in 1978. Your post is fair enough in the main but let's add important context to the statistic you have quoted.

Ok. The vote was in 78. But that written, legally binding constitution - which underpins the governance of Spain and it's constituent nations - bans secessionist votes.

 

In order to hold a vote like that held in Scotland Spain would need to amend it's constitution. Which would have repercussions across Spain.

 

Why? Spanish history shows the reasons - a fear of chaos and a break down of the rule of law. Which occurred at the end of the first republic, the end of monarchy in the 1920s and the rise of Franco. The political and legal classes fear disorder.

 

To Madrid, from what I've read, they view this as a threat to the rule of law.

 

I think there are other ways for Catalonia to deal with this- ex-Spanish ministers and Catalan officials have said that there could have been a convention or consultation.

 

It'll be interesting tomorrow - neither the Catalan or Spanish governments are doing the right things to me.