Catalonia referendum

[deesidejambo]

Support for Indy from recent polls show no change.    It’s still no.

 

the issue is nothing to do with Tories, Indy is sunk and the reason for the Tory successes in Scotland is the SNP handing it to them.

 

anyway - tax the rich pronto.   The SNP have that power so when they are finished with banning snacking perhaps they can address this issue.

 

Or maybe they will find another populist policy to go after..   I suggest they ban in office toilets next.

[Boris]

2 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

No, it isn't. Refusing to change one's mind is the same as refusing to follow where the dialectic leads. It seems some of our early human ancestors were big Hegelians or knew Socrates was a coming thing or something.

 

And of course Marx took Hegel to a whole new level.

 

i get what you are saying, and actually agree. What I can't get my head around is the ability to move from left to,right and/or back again.

 

you may desire the union, that's your choice, quite rightly. But a union run by the current Tories? Seems a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

anyways, pleasure debating with you.

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, deesidejambo said:

Support for Indy from recent polls show no change.    It’s still no.

 

the issue is nothing to do with Tories, Indy is sunk and the reason for the Tory successes in Scotland is the SNP handing it to them.

 

anyway - tax the rich pronto.   The SNP have that power so when they are finished with banning snacking perhaps they can address this issue.

 

Or maybe they will find another populist policy to go after..   I suggest they ban in office toilets next.

 

Offices to be at a temperature that suits women...

[Thunderstruck]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

Yes, I saw that. A council seat.

 

I notice the independent ,who had 20% of the vote at the previous election, either didn't stand or vote imploded.

 

snp vote was up too in that seat.

 

not really a barometer of the country though, wouldn't you say?

 

Given the recent performance of Pollsters, I wouldn’t be too quick to take a punt based on any of their conclusions. 

 

What the vote highlights is that the claim that the electoral events earlier this year were “blips” or “protests” is not well-founded. 

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, Boris said:

 

And of course Marx took Hegel to a whole new level.

 

i get what you are saying, and actually agree. What I can't get my head around is the ability to move from left to,right and/or back again.

 

you may desire the union, that's your choice, quite rightly. But a union run by the current Tories? Seems a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

anyways, pleasure debating with you.

 

In my case, they have in common that I like people to have the freedom to live their lives. I'm self-employed so I can the point of view of a person who wants to keep a good portion of what they earn, not out of greed, but because they've worked for it. Where the state, or a "national" political project invades people's lives, I'm dead against it. There are limits. I'm for a national health service, a free and compulsory schools, etc. But where the state is a constant and compulsory feature of your life, I'd rather not. Sten Guns used a great term on here once, Hertz life, for people who wear Hearts gear every day and are at a Hearts event as often as there is one. I don't want that and I don't want state life or national project life. I trust myself to come to a provisional conclusion about the world and I trust most other people to do so as well. I don't want the state, or the national cultural march (see Fiona Hyslop) thinking it knows better or telling me what to do.

 

Freedom to live their lives also entails more traditionally left-wing things such as rehabilitation of offenders. "Its purpose is that people do not have a lifelong blot on their records because of a relatively minor offence in their past." I agree with that. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 was a good piece of legislation introduced by a Labour MP. (I don't have any convictions so it's not a personal matter). Otherwise it's Scarlet Letter. In the same line, I am against the closed shop. I've never had to worry about that since it was abolished by the Employment Act 1990 (Conservative government). My objection is, why should I join a union? What if I don't like its policies?

 

Allowing gay marriage is conducive to the pursuit of happiness and I'm in favour of it. Allowing people to declare that the law's a bogey so they're just going to do what they want sounds like they'll be telling you and me to do what they want before long. Which, as in today's video, is exactly what they do.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

And of course Marx took Hegel to a whole new level.

 

i get what you are saying, and actually agree. What I can't get my head around is the ability to move from left to,right and/or back again.

 

you may desire the union, that's your choice, quite rightly. But a union run by the current Tories? Seems a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

anyways, pleasure debating with you.

 

Sorry, to answer your question, "the current Tories" is a very temporary thing. An independent Scotland would be for maybe a century, until a new Union. One might have said that Attlee's government was socialism and the frozen limit, so we're away, then Suez was too much, we're, like the brickie, awa' noo, then it's oor oil, then we're the unco green, then a Winter of Discontent, it's too much, it's chaos, the country's run by unions, then Thatcher's away and humped the unions, then we want a Labour government like never before, then we want the Labour PM on trial for war crimes, then we want a referendum to decide our fate, then we don't want the UK to have a referendum to decide its fate, then we do want Catalonia to decide its future.

 

La unión hace la fuerza. The Union forever.

 

[yabadabadoo1874again]

4 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

I'm pro-Union and pro whoever's pro. Except the BNP and the like.

 

Watched bunch of orange BritNats scarify Thornliebank Main Street few saturdays ago...at lunchtime !!! truly a horrible, evil leering menacing blootered bunch!!! 

 

They are all pro whatever you said.  It seems.

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

Watched bunch of orange BritNats scarify Thornliebank Main Street few saturdays ago...at lunchtime !!! truly a horrible, evil leering menacing blootered bunch!!! 

 

They are all pro whatever you said.  It seems.

 

I'm sure you're not pro all those who're pro what you're pro.

[Ibrahim Tall]

4 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

My grandmother lived through the Second World War and retained a dislike of Germany for the rest of her life. I did not live through any of that, so I have no dislike or distrust of Germany. This is logical.

 

People having lived in peace, in which Spanish and Catalan both flourish, yet fiercely preferring one over the other doesn't make obvious sense, unless pressure is artificially applied. See this article for how identity is more fluid when there is less pressure to go in any particular direction: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/you-dont-have-to-be-either-british-or-irish-you-can-be-both-36207550.html

 

I understand what you're trying to say but your Gran isn't really the best example for a few reasons, assuming she's from Scotland or atleast the UK then it's hardly the 'frontline', we didn't have nazi death squads at the door taking away relatives like continental Europe did or Tank battles and air raids on a daily basis in our hometown. All of Spain experienced that in the civil war. 

 

Post WW2 there was also a process of blame, trials, prosecutions etc. which in the long run has atleast 'helped' people come to terms with what happened and get over it. When Franco died Spain effectively decided to pretend the previous 40 years didn't happen and 'move on' simply because it was deemed easier. It's not hard to see why those that suffered most i.e. the Basques and Catalans are still resentful. 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

Watched bunch of orange BritNats scarify Thornliebank Main Street few saturdays ago...at lunchtime !!! truly a horrible, evil leering menacing blootered bunch!!! 

 

They are all pro whatever you said.  It seems.

 

Oh come on. You can't tar all those who believe in a certain view just because extremists who also hold that view act badly. That's a pretty shan argument, imo.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Oh come on. You can't tar all those who believe in a certain view just because extremists who also hold that view act badly. That's a pretty shan argument, imo.

 

Indeed, but on the flip side the same is used by some unionists to paint those who wish independence.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

7 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

I understand what you're trying to say but your Gran isn't really the best example for a few reasons, assuming she's from Scotland or atleast the UK then it's hardly the 'frontline', we didn't have nazi death squads at the door taking away relatives like continental Europe did or Tank battles and air raids on a daily basis in our hometown. All of Spain experienced that in the civil war. 

 

Post WW2 there was also a process of blame, trials, prosecutions etc. which in the long run has atleast 'helped' people come to terms with what happened and get over it. When Franco died Spain effectively decided to pretend the previous 40 years didn't happen and 'move on' simply because it was deemed easier. It's not hard to see why those that suffered most i.e. the Basques and Catalans are still resentful. 

 

No, not Basques and Catalans, communists, socialists, atheists, homosexuals, etc. Much of Francoism was widely supported in both of these places. The Basque Country was fanatically Catholic, possibly the most conservative Catholic place in Spain. Basque nationalism was invented in the late nineteenth century by one Sabino Arana. It was originally based on resentment of "maketos," i.e. people from other parts of Spain who moved to the Basque Country in the late nineteenth century to work in the new industry, while most of the rest of the country remained rural.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana

 

Incidentally, the Ikurriña, which was invented in the same period, was based on the Union flag.

 

Inspired by xenophobia and based on the Union flag, it is now frequently seen at Celtic Park.

 

 

 

 

 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Indeed, but on the flip side the same is used by some unionists to paint those who wish independence.

 

It's a shan argument wherever it's used.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

No, not Basques and Catalans, communists, socialists, atheists, homosexuals, etc. Much of Francoism was widely supported in both of these places. The Basque Country was fanatically Catholic, possibly the most conservative Catholic place in Spain. Basque nationalism was invented in the late nineteenth century by one Sabino Arana. It was originally based on resentment of "maketos," i.e. people from other parts of Spain who moved to the Basque Country in the late nineteenth century to work in the new industry, while most of the rest of the country remained rural.

 

Out of interest, where do the Galicians fit into the scheme of things? Do they have a realistically active independence movement? Also, could you see the Balearics siding with the Catalans?

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It's a shan argument wherever it's used.

Totally agree!

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Out of interest, where do the Galicians fit into the scheme of things? Do they have a realistically active independence movement? Also, could you see the Balearics siding with the Catalans?

There is a regional movement in most places in Spain. Strongest in the Basque Country and Catalonia, then Galicia. I don't think there's any chance. Apart from anything else, it's poorer than the other two and poorer on average than the rest of Spain.

 

The Balearics (and Valencia) are often roped into the concept of "Catalan countries." I used to go on holiday to Peñíscola in Valencia region and they bitterly hated Barcelona FC and Catalan nationalism for trying to rope them into their nationalism, with which, for the most part, they want nothing to do. Valencian, menorquín, mallorquín and ibizeño are all dialects of Catalan. They were part of Aragon. However, they've not been independent of Castille since the 15th century. The best analogy I can think of would be for Ulster loyalists to say that Northern Ireland and Scotland together make up the "Scottish countries." Northern Ireland is the place in the world most influence by Scotland I daresay, but I don't think it would be a winner in Scotland. With a few people, but not widely.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Countries

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

There is a regional movement in most places in Spain. Strongest in the Basque Country and Catalonia, then Galicia. I don't think there's any chance. Apart from anything else, it's poorer than the other two and poorer on average than the rest of Spain.

 

The Balearics (and Valencia) are often roped into the concept of "Catalan countries." I used to go on holiday to Peñíscola in Valencia region and they bitterly hated Barcelona FC and Catalan nationalism for trying to rope them into their nationalism, with which, for the most part, they want nothing to do. Valencian, menorquín, mallorquín and ibizeño are all dialects of Catalan. They were part of Aragon. However, they've not been independent of Castille since the 15th century. The best analogy I can think of would be for Ulster loyalists to say that Northern Ireland and Scotland together make up the "Scottish countries." Northern Ireland is the place in the world most influence by Scotland I daresay, but I don't think it would be a winner in Scotland. With a few people, but not widely.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Countries

 

Thanks for the info. Have the other regions in Spain been publicly silent on the Catalan issue so far?

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Thanks for the info. Have the other regions in Spain been publicly silent on the Catalan issue so far?

Another article about it. https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/08/25/inenglish/1440498904_546028.html

 

The Basque region has had some protests in favour of Catalan independence (not the right to decide, just independence, to break up Spain). There have been pro-Spanish unity protests around Spain. However, it's not a competence of regional governments to interfere with other regions or the Constitution. The national government does that.

 

The lehendekari (Basque president) offered to be an intermediary between the Spanish government and the Catalan government in negotiations. This is like Gerry Adams acting as an intermediary in negotiations between the Scottish and UK governments. It's laughable and he was ignored.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Another article about it. https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/08/25/inenglish/1440498904_546028.html

 

The Basque region has had some protests in favour of Catalan independence (not the right to decide, just independence, to break up Spain). There have been pro-Spanish unity protests around Spain. However, it's not a competence of regional governments to interfere with other regions or the Constitution. The national government does that.

 

Just to clarify the matter, are you saying that if one region officially commented, either positively or negatively, on the Catalan situation, then this would be deemed to be against the law or constitution. Or is it just the case that it isn't done.

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

26 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

No, not Basques and Catalans, communists, socialists, atheists, homosexuals, etc. Much of Francoism was widely supported in both of these places. The Basque Country was fanatically Catholic, possibly the most conservative Catholic place in Spain. Basque nationalism was invented in the late nineteenth century by one Sabino Arana. It was originally based on resentment of "maketos," i.e. people from other parts of Spain who moved to the Basque Country in the late nineteenth century to work in the new industry, while most of the rest of the country remained rural.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana

 

Incidentally, the Ikurriña, which was invented in the same period, was based on the Union flag.

 

Inspired by xenophobia and based on the Union flag, it is now frequently seen at Celtic Park.

 

You’re missing the point. 

For over 40 years Basque, Catalan etc culture and language was banned completely and people were persecuted or worse for identifying as such. Let alone the countless war crimes that preceeded during the civil war.

yet instead of addressing those issues post-Franco, dealing with them and trying to prosecute those still alive the Spanish state effectively swept them under the carpet and tried to ignore and forget them. Christ it took until 2008 before the last statue was torn down and they’re still finding mass graves.

 

With no blame and acceptance of guilt there’s no reconciliation and without reconciliation it’s little surprise many don’t ‘feel’ Spanish. If they’d dealt with the issue properly in the 70/80’s they wouldn’t be in this situation now and it’s not comparable with British feelings on Germans post WW2.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Just to clarify the matter, are you saying that if one region officially commented, either positively or negatively, on the Catalan situation, then this would be deemed to be against the law or constitution. Or is it just the case that it isn't done.

 

I don't think it's against the law to comment, but they have no power and no legal role, so it's meaningless. Sheffield City Council has recognised the independence of Somaliland from Somalia. Great, but it means nothing.

 

http://yorkshiretimes.co.uk/article/Sheffield-Recognises-Somalilands-Independence

 

If you really want to understand what's happening in Spain, I think reading the Constitution is essential.

 

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf

 

These are the competences of regions:

 

1.

The Self-governing Communities may

assume competences over the following mat-

ters:

1. Organization of their institutions of self-

government.

2. Changes in municipal boundaries within

their territory and, in general, functions apper-

taining to the State Administration regarding

local Corporations, whose transfer may be

authorised by legislation on local governe-

ment.

3. Town and country planning and housing.

4. Public works of interest to the Self-gover-

ning Community, within its own territory.

5. Railways and roads whose routes lie

exclusively within the territory of the Self-

Statutes of

Devolution

Contents of

Statutes

Amendment

of Statutes

Matters

devolved to

self-governing

Communities

81 C

148, 149,

150.3, 152 C

81, 152.2 C

145 SO

147.2,

149,

150 C

66

 

governing Community and transport by the

above means or by cable fulfilling the same

conditions.

6. Ports of haven, recreational ports and air-

ports and, in general, those which are not en-

gaged in commercial activities.

7. Agriculture and livestock raising, in accor-

dance with general economic planning.

8. Woodlands and forestry.

9. Management of environmental protec-

tion.

10. Planning, construction and exploitation

of hydraulic projects, canals and irrigation of

interest to the Self-governing Community; mi-

neral and thermal waters.

11. Inland water fishing, shellfish industry

and fishfarming, hunting and river fishing.

12. Local fairs.

13. Promotion of economic development of

the Self-governing Community within the ob-

jectives set by national economic policy.

14. Handicrafts.

15. Museums, libraries and music conserva-

tories of interest to the Self-governing Com-

munity.

16. The Self-governing Community’s monu-

ments of interest.

17. The promotion of culture and research

and, where applicable, the teaching of the

Self-governing Community’s language.

18. The promotion and planning of tourism

within its territorial area.

19. The promotion of sports and the proper

use of leisure.

20. Social assistance.

21. Health and hygiene.

22. The supervision and protection of its

buildings and installations. Coordination and

other powers relating to local police forces un-

der the terms to be laid down by an organic act.

[Gorgiewave]

15 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

You’re missing the point. 

For over 40 years Basque, Catalan etc culture and language was banned completely and people were persecuted or worse for identifying as such. Let alone the countless war crimes that preceeded during the civil war.

yet instead of addressing those issues post-Franco, dealing with them and trying to prosecute those still alive the Spanish state effectively swept them under the carpet and tried to ignore and forget them. Christ it took until 2008 before the last statue was torn down and they’re still finding mass graves.

 

With no blame and acceptance of guilt there’s no reconciliation and without reconciliation it’s little surprise many don’t ‘feel’ Spanish. If they’d dealt with the issue properly in the 70/80’s they wouldn’t be in this situation now and it’s not comparable with British feelings on Germans post WW2.

 

They were addressed. Those regions have significant autonomy and there was an Amnesty Law in 1977. There was also a "Pact of forgetting," to decide to not try crimes or have a truth and reconciliation committee system. That may or may not have been a good idea, but it was the attempt made to solve the situation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_forgetting

 

https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/08/inenglish/1381233605_231882.html

 

I have doubts about whether that strategy worked, but there was a strategy and that was it.

 

One of the main things was that the law had to be obeyed. It was agreed by everybody through fair and regular elections, and then it was the same for everybody. This novel idea (for Spain) has been seriously challenged twice: once in 1981 in a coup d'etat, which failed, and again in 2017 in an attempted coup d'etat, which is in the process of failing. Having had Rangers season ticket-holding referees for years, one would be glad of an imperfect Stockport-supporting one who was neutral in Hearts games.

 

Also, the Civil War was not fought between nations or regions in Spain. It was fought between the elected (socialist) Republican government (known as the Republicans), which was overthrown by a fascist, Catholic, to some extent Carlist movement (known as the Nationals) which invaded from Africa and then defeated the Republican government in the war. Each side had supporters all over Spain.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I like how Spain is getting blamed for all of this when the twat in charge of Catalonia didn't even win the referendum vote in the Catalan parliament! Spain are right to put him back in his box.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I like how Spain is getting blamed for all of this when the twat in charge of Catalonia didn't even win the referendum vote in the Catalan parliament! Spain are right to put him back in his box.

Probably your best post on kickback.

 

The vote was held without any debate. A vote allegedly to pass a bill on an independence referendum and there was no debate. But they're the democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I like how Spain is getting blamed for all of this when the twat in charge of Catalonia didn't even win the referendum vote in the Catalan parliament! Spain are right to put him back in his box.

 

Is there any chance that, for once, you could actually post something without being abusive and finding some outlet for that innate anger you obviously have?

 

"Intensely relaxed"? Aye, right.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

Probably your best post on kickback.

 

The vote was held without any debate. A vote allegedly to pass a bill on an independence referendum and there was no debate. But they're the democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Just because it agrees with your views. That does not a "best post" make.

[Gorgiewave]

Anybody who is really interested in the history of Spain and differences between Spanish and UK politics and culture that can make for a shock should look into caciquismo (local bigwigs who held all the local power), the very hilly geography that has made for difficult internal travel in history, the experience of centuries of war against Islam ending in 1492 and how it made Spanish politics intolerant and paranoid, the physical isolation of Madrid (the only major capital city in Western Europe that's neither on a large river nor on the coast) and the confidence of counter-Reformation Catholicism coinciding with the high-point in Spanish imperialism.

 

Those who don't really care will, of course, not look into these things.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Just because it agrees with your views. That does not a "best post" make.

It was intended as a backhanded compliment. I've not always found Geoff a great or insightful read, as he knows.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

9 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Is there any chance that, for once, you could actually post something without being abusive and finding some outlet for that innate anger you obviously have?

 

"Intensely relaxed"? Aye, right.

 

I think the guy Puidgemont is a twat. How do you infer "anger" from that?

[Ibrahim Tall]

22 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

They were addressed. Those regions have significant autonomy and there was an Amnesty Law in 1977. There was also a "Pact of forgetting," to decide to not try crimes or have a truth and reconciliation committee system. That may or may not have been a good idea, but it was the attempt made to solve the situation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_forgetting

 

https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/08/inenglish/1381233605_231882.html

 

I have doubts about whether that strategy worked, but there was a strategy and that was it.

 

One of the main things was that the law had to be obeyed. It was agreed by everybody through fair and regular elections, and then it was the same for everybody. This novel idea (for Spain) has been seriously challenged twice: once in 1981 in a coup d'etat, which failed, and again in 2017 in an attempted coup d'etat, which is in the process of failing. Having had Rangers season ticket-holding referees for years, one would be glad of an imperfect Stockport-supporting one who was neutral in Hearts games.

 

Also, the Civil War was not fought between nations or regions in Spain. It was fought between the elected (socialist) Republican government (known as the Republicans), which was overthrown by a fascist, Catholic, to some extent Carlist movement (known as the Nationals) which invaded from Africa and then defeated the Republican government in the war. Each side had supporters all over Spain.

 

Its the pact of forgetting along with the 77 Amnesty agreement I’m referring to, it was a nonsense agreement wrote up to protect war criminals and murderers complicit in Francoism and agreed through blackmail that it was the only way becoming an actual democracy and not a continuation of the previous regime.

It should have been ripped up in 1981 and dealt with after failed coup when ‘democracy’ was secured.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

Its the pact of forgetting along with the 77 Amnesty agreement I’m referring to, it was a nonsense agreement wrote up to protect war criminals and murderers complicit in Francoism and signed through blackmail that it was the only way becoming an actual democracy and not a continuation of the previous regime.

It should have been ripped up in 1981 and dealt with after failed coup when ‘democracy’ was secured.

 

You may well be right. However, those of school age now are the first generation who neither know nor care anything about Franco.

 

What to do with people who have been involved in terrible crimes isn't easy. The Iraqi army was disbanded and a lot of the Ba'athist soldiers ended up in ISIS. Maybe they would have been better off where they were.

 

Denazification was more of a success and, as far as I can tell, the release of prisoners under the Good Friday Agreement, more good than bad (if necessary for an agreement). Maybe Geoff will know more?

[Ibrahim Tall]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

You may well be right. However, those of school age now are the first generation who neither know nor care anything about Franco.

 

They might not but their parents and grandparents will. A percentage in Scotland are still bitter about battles 700 years ago despite centuries of good relations, many Europeans are still bitter about Germany despite decades of European ‘unity’ etc.

 

Its not that simple and not always that easy to forgive and forget even if you individually weren’t effected and Spain’s issues are fresher than most.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

 banning snacking

 

I know it's not a bad idea to prevent people spoiling their appetite for dinner, but that's a bit OTT.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

They might not but their parents and grandparents will. A percentage in Scotland are still bitter about battles 700 years ago despite centuries of good relations, many Europeans are still bitter about Germany despite decades of European ‘unity’ etc.

 

Its not that simple and not always that easy to forgive and forget even if you individually weren’t effected and Spain’s issues are fresher than most.

 

Yes, I know all that, but constantly bringing up the same subject isn't necessarily going to solve it.

 

For anybody who speaks Spanish and doesn't know the series, Cuéntame cómo pasó is an excellent series (which has been running since 2001) about Spain since 1968. It's a drama in which all the dramas of the Transition, changing relationships between generations and men and women, are all dramatised.

 

As I've posted before, this was the hymn of the Transition and a lot of people still hold to that spirit. Young communists are those least likely to accept it. Their grandparents, who may have been personally affected, accept it much more.

 

 

Fredom without anger

The old men say that there was a war in this country

and there are yet two Spains that keep

a score of old debts.

The old men say this country needs

a long stick and harsh discipline

to avert the worst.

 

But I´ve only seen people

who suffers and remains silent,

pain and fear.

People that only wished for his bread,

his woman and his calm 1

 

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be.

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be.

 

The old men say we do whatever we well please

and thus there can´t possibly be

a Government that governs anything.

The old men say they shouldn´t let us loose

because here, everyone has

violence close to the surface.

 

But I´ve only seen very obedient people,

even so in bed.

People that only wish to live their lives

without more lies, and peacefully.

 

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be.

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be.

 

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be.

 

Freedom, freedom, freedom without anger,

cast away your fear and your anger

because there is freedom, freedom without anger.

And if there isn´t, there´ll surely be (bis)

 

[deesidejambo]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

I know it's not a bad idea to prevent people spoiling their appetite for dinner, but that's a bit OTT.

How the **** do you switch off the  **** spell checker?

[jake]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

Anybody who is really interested in the history of Spain and differences between Spanish and UK politics and culture that can make for a shock should look into caciquismo (local bigwigs who held all the local power), the very hilly geography that has made for difficult internal travel in history, the experience of centuries of war against Islam ending in 1492 and how it made Spanish politics intolerant and paranoid, the physical isolation of Madrid (the only major capital city in Western Europe that's neither on a large river nor on the coast) and the confidence of counter-Reformation Catholicism coinciding with the high-point in Spanish imperialism.

 

Those who don't really care will, of course, not look into these things.

You have obviously a knowledge of Spamish history.

I think anyone especially in Scotland knows the impact on modern politic.

Can i ask why it is that you have such a passiion .

Not slagging here.

At first i thought it was your opposition to Scottish independence.

Now im thinking your opposition to Catalan indy is more your drive.

 

Just seems you know your stuff about Spain.

[Ulysses]

19 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

How the **** do you switch off the  **** spell checker?

 

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, jake said:

You have obviously a knowledge of Spamish history.

I think anyone especially in Scotland knows the impact on modern politic.

Can i ask why it is that you have such a passiion .

Not slagging here.

At first i thought it was your opposition to Scottish independence.

Now im thinking your opposition to Catalan indy is more your drive.

 

Just seems you know your stuff about Spain.

 

Spain is something of a second country for me. And, knowing something of the history of Spain, I think Catalan separatism is harmful and not really a liberation movement as it likes to present itself. Did you see the video a few pages back and the transcript I did? I think that's indoctrination and manipulation. Something similar has been done in Catalan society at large and I'd rather they didn't get away with it.

 

Through my in-laws, I also know something of the struggles of a previous generation, when they really was no freedom. Catalan nationalism, which is based on an exaggerated victimhood (Catalan was banned, yes, but that ended 40 years ago and it's now flourishing as never before), and I don't like their dishonesty. The same in Scotland. Scotland is not a victim of England or of the Union and I don't want its manipulations to succeed.

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Spain is something of a second country for me. And, knowing something of the history of Spain, I think Catalan separatism is harmful and not really a liberation movement as it likes to present itself. Did you see the video a few pages back and the transcript I did? I think that's indoctrination and manipulation. Something similar has been done in Catalan society at large and I'd rather they didn't get away with it.

 

Through my in-laws, I also know something of the struggles of a previous generation, when they really was no freedom. Catalan nationalism, which is based on an exaggerated victimhood (Catalan was banned, yes, but that ended 40 years ago and it's now flourishing as never before), and I don't like their dishonesty. The same in Scotland. Scotland is not a victim of England or of the Union and I don't want its manipulations to succeed.

 

Setting victimisation aside, do you think that peoples in general should be given the right to self-determination, bearing in mind of course the difficulty of deciding how geopolitical units should be distinguished?

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Spain is something of a second country for me. And, knowing something of the history of Spain, I think Catalan separatism is harmful and not really a liberation movement as it likes to present itself. Did you see the video a few pages back and the transcript I did? I think that's indoctrination and manipulation. Something similar has been done in Catalan society at large and I'd rather they didn't get away with it.

 

Through my in-laws, I also know something of the struggles of a previous generation, when they really was no freedom. Catalan nationalism, which is based on an exaggerated victimhood (Catalan was banned, yes, but that ended 40 years ago and it's now flourishing as never before), and I don't like their dishonesty. The same in Scotland. Scotland is not a victim of England or of the Union and I don't want its manipulations to succeed.

Sound.

Im pro independence.

Although i do not like the blame culture against England. 

 

I was just interested in the historical background you referred to .

So will take a look myself.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Setting victimisation aside, do you think that peoples in general should be given the right to self-determination, bearing in mind of course the difficulty of deciding how geopolitical units should be distinguished?

 

I think people, including groups of people, should have the right to self-determination, yes. The rights of minorities, and of those who disagree, should also be respected. If done dishonestly, or by manipulating children, or by bullying in society in general, I hope they fail.

 

However, one thing people who've not lived in Spain (or, perhaps, most other countries in the world) don't feel in their bones is the fear of chaos and the desire for the law to be applied and equally to all. That's a step, historically earlier than national self-determination, in ensuring liberty.

 

The broad contrast - the historically exceptional example - is the Anglosphere. I'm well aware of many breaches of that. Daniel Hannan is worth listening to on this (starts 4.12). One small example: in Spain, there is a widespread assumption that one should should a profession aged about 18, do whatever study or training you need to do that, and then keep it forever. Miriam González (Nick Clegg's wife) immediately noticed upon coming to Britain that people enjoyed greater freedom to live their own lives. In Spain, the idea of changing profession is considered embarrassing, a failure and eccentric. You are what you are, and you're fecked if you want to change your fate.

 

 

 

Also, a contrast may be drawn between the countries most influenced by Britain: Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and those most influenced by Spain (Spanish-speaking Latin America) and the relative levels of wealth and relative numbers of dictators. This is analysed in this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/dp/1846684307

 

Surreptitious, illegal independence is no route to trust. The level of social mistrust in Spain, between the government and the people and between people, is not imaginable for a British person unless you've lived there (maybe Northern Irish people would recognise it). Some historians attribute this to the difference between Protestantism, in which people were encouraged to read The Bible for themselves in their own language, and Catholicism, which maintained a priest caste much longer and Latin mass until the 1960s. Catholicism is less conducive to democracy. One little detail: on a Spanish tax return, you do your numbers, and then it subtracts 5% from your deductible expenses on the explicit assumption that you're lying. In the USA, one signs an oath. In Spain, they assume you're lying. In the USA, they assume you're capable of telling the truth.

 

The stress caused by mistrust is eventually noticeable. Crowdfunding was initially banned in Spain because the government didn't trust the public to use it. In the common law system, things are not banned until they are banned. In Spain (and other Roman law countries), things aren't allowed until the government authorises them. A generalisation but true.

 

So a referendum with no debate, then closing the parliament so it can't be scrutinised, then 90% for one side. It sounds like a banana republic, because it is.

 

[Gorgiewave]

González Durántez spoke of her relationship with the United Kingdom in a 2014 interview stating that after living in the country she:

"felt a freedom that I had never felt before in my life, a freedom to be myself. I come from a culture, in Spain, in Brussels, where, if you want to be a lawyer, you study law, if you want to be an economist, you study economy. Whatever you do early in your life determines what you do later on. When I came here, I went for lots of chats with people because I didn't know what to do. And pretty much all of them said, 'What do you want to do?' And I was like, 'Me? You want to know what I think? I have a choice?' Now I take it for granted, but it was a complete shock to my system. I still think it today: if I wanted to change my job, everyone would say, 'Great, good for you.'"^[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_González_Durántez

 

I've seen a hundred examples of this in Spain.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

20 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Setting victimisation aside, do you think that peoples in general should be given the right to self-determination, bearing in mind of course the difficulty of deciding how geopolitical units should be distinguished?

Hate to jump in but I would agree. Equally, would you agree that if the devolved parliament had rejected the move for independence then there would be no mandate to pursue it?

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I think people, including groups of people, should have the right to self-determination, yes. The rights of minorities, and of those who disagree, should also be respected. If done dishonestly, or by manipulating children, or by bullying in society in general, I hope they fail. ...

 

Thanks for your in-depth reply, GW. I'll have a look at the video in a minute. However one thing you said did resonate with me. When I worked at one job in France, I had an eclectic job that involved a diverse variety of tasks, both indoors and outdoors. Any time I would talk to a French person about it, they would look at me blankly as if such a thing weren't possible. In addition, when I applied for a job, the guy looking at my CV (and the diversity in it) commented out loud that he thought I was taking the piss (it was reported back to me by someone that knew the interviewer). On the other hand, I once showed a group of Americans around my job and, when they found out what I did, the comments I received were all positive, along the lines of "Wow, that's great to be able to do so many different things!". I imagine that Spain is perhaps similar to France in that regard. France is also not a meritocracy. I found that out quite quickly.

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Thanks for your in-depth reply, GW. I'll have a look at the video in a minute. However one thing you said did resonate with me. When I worked at one job in France, I had an eclectic job that involved a diverse variety of tasks, both indoors and outdoors. Any time I would talk to a French person about it, they would look at me blankly as if such a thing weren't possible. In addition, when I applied for a job, the guy looking at my CV (and the diversity in it) commented out loud that he thought I was taking the piss (it was reported back to me by someone that knew the interviewer). On the other hand, I once showed a group of Americans around my job and, when they found out what I did, the comments I received were all positive, along the lines of "Wow, that's great to be able to do so many different things!". I imagine that Spain is perhaps similar to France in that regard. France is also not a meritocracy. I found that out quite quickly.

 

I think that's the exact same phenomenon and contrast you've experienced. I don't know enough law or history to identify the dividing line, but Protestant/Catholic, Roman law/common law, Anglosphere/not Anglosphere, countries being an island or so remote as to be like one (early USA) is noticeable. No need for a standing army in peacetime on an island.

[redjambo]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Hate to jump in but I would agree. Equally, would you agree that if the devolved parliament had rejected the move for independence then there would be no mandate to pursue it?

 

I have to admit that it's a bit of a grey area for me, Geoff. I do believe that the Catalans have the right to self-determination, but I would like to see that as being at the end of an organised period of time in which all the issues involved are openly debated in Catalan society. I'm not sure that this happened, but one of the reasons for that was the fact that the Spanish government wouldn't allow a referendum. Despite the history and the Constitution, which GW has argued about frequently on here, I think that the Catalans should have been allowed such a referendum. However, in the end, given the intransigence of the Spanish government, the Catalans were almost forced into doing things hurriedly and against the grain.

 

So, to summarise, I think it's a good thing that the Catalans have decided on their own fate, but I feel uneasy at the referendum itself. I would have far preferred that the referendum not have been subject to the immense pressures that it was, that it be free and open and internationally monitored, with both sides encouraged to take part and to do so in an unhindered fashion (a freedom which the federal police denied).

 

I personally don't think it is up to parliament to vote on such a question, I think it is up to the people to vote on it. However, if a referendum is unsuccessful then I believe that there should not be another one for at least a generation.

 

As you can see, this is a grey area for me. If I haven't answered your question then please feel free to chase me up on any points.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

9 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

I have to admit that it's a bit of a grey area for me, Geoff. I do believe that the Catalans have the right to self-determination, but I would like to see that as being at the end of an organised period of time in which all the issues involved are openly debated in Catalan society. I'm not sure that this happened, but one of the reasons for that was the fact that the Spanish government wouldn't allow a referendum. Despite the history and the Constitution, which GW has argued about frequently on here, I think that the Catalans should have been allowed such a referendum. However, in the end, given the intransigence of the Spanish government, the Catalans were almost forced into doing things hurriedly and against the grain.

 

So, to summarise, I think it's a good thing that the Catalans have decided on their own fate, but I feel uneasy at the referendum itself. I would have far preferred that the referendum not have been subject to the immense pressures that it was, that it be free and open and internationally monitored, with both sides encouraged to take part and to do so in an unhindered fashion (a freedom which the federal police denied).

 

I personally don't think it is up to parliament to vote on such a question, I think it is up to the people to vote on it. However, if a referendum is unsuccessful then I believe that there should not be another one for at least a generation.

 

As you can see, this is a grey area for me. If I haven't answered your question then please feel free to chase me up on any points.

 

I think you missed my point. Before Pudigemont called in (apologies if spelled incorrectly), he didn't win a vote in the Catalan parliament on HOLDING the referendum. That is why I think the whole thing has been an unnecessary pantomime. Imagine Sturgeon calling IndyRef 2 after Holyrood had rejected it? She would be laughed out of Edinburgh!

[Justin Z]

12 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Spain is something of a second country for me. And, knowing something of the history of Spain, I think Catalan separatism is harmful and not really a liberation movement as it likes to present itself. Did you see the video a few pages back and the transcript I did? I think that's indoctrination and manipulation. Something similar has been done in Catalan society at large and I'd rather they didn't get away with it.

 

Through my in-laws, I also know something of the struggles of a previous generation, when they really was no freedom. Catalan nationalism, which is based on an exaggerated victimhood (Catalan was banned, yes, but that ended 40 years ago and it's now flourishing as never before), and I don't like their dishonesty. The same in Scotland. Scotland is not a victim of England or of the Union and I don't want its manipulations to succeed.

 

And knowing what I know about both as a complete outsider to both, this confirms for me what I suspected about how deeply rooted and blinding your biases are.

[AlphonseCapone]

14 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I think people, including groups of people, should have the right to self-determination, yes. The rights of minorities, and of those who disagree, should also be respected. If done dishonestly, or by manipulating children, or by bullying in society in general, I hope they fail.

 

However, one thing people who've not lived in Spain (or, perhaps, most other countries in the world) don't feel in their bones is the fear of chaos and the desire for the law to be applied and equally to all. That's a step, historically earlier than national self-determination, in ensuring liberty.

 

The broad contrast - the historically exceptional example - is the Anglosphere. I'm well aware of many breaches of that. Daniel Hannan is worth listening to on this (starts 4.12). One small example: in Spain, there is a widespread assumption that one should should a profession aged about 18, do whatever study or training you need to do that, and then keep it forever. Miriam González (Nick Clegg's wife) immediately noticed upon coming to Britain that people enjoyed greater freedom to live their own lives. In Spain, the idea of changing profession is considered embarrassing, a failure and eccentric. You are what you are, and you're fecked if you want to change your fate.

 

 

 

Also, a contrast may be drawn between the countries most influenced by Britain: Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and those most influenced by Spain (Spanish-speaking Latin America) and the relative levels of wealth and relative numbers of dictators. This is analysed in this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/dp/1846684307

 

Surreptitious, illegal independence is no route to trust. The level of social mistrust in Spain, between the government and the people and between people, is not imaginable for a British person unless you've lived there (maybe Northern Irish people would recognise it). Some historians attribute this to the difference between Protestantism, in which people were encouraged to read The Bible for themselves in their own language, and Catholicism, which maintained a priest caste much longer and Latin mass until the 1960s. Catholicism is less conducive to democracy. One little detail: on a Spanish tax return, you do your numbers, and then it subtracts 5% from your deductible expenses on the explicit assumption that you're lying. In the USA, one signs an oath. In Spain, they assume you're lying. In the USA, they assume you're capable of telling the truth.

 

The stress caused by mistrust is eventually noticeable. Crowdfunding was initially banned in Spain because the government didn't trust the public to use it. In the common law system, things are not banned until they are banned. In Spain (and other Roman law countries), things aren't allowed until the government authorises them. A generalisation but true.

 

So a referendum with no debate, then closing the parliament so it can't be scrutinised, then 90% for one side. It sounds like a banana republic, because it is.

 

 

GW, I know we've had a few run ins on various topics but that's a really interesting and informative post. Cheers.

[niblick1874]

22 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Tory until Labour revisit the world.

 

22 hours ago, Boris said:

 

A man of conviction then!

 

Shameful.

I understand where Gorgiewave is coming from. Shameful? As for me, there are very few legitimate choices left (if any) for those that wish to stands against globalism.

 

I know you couldn't slide a fag paper in between the communism and globalism of today. Shameful?