The terrible thing that's happened in america

[niblick1874]

Does it matter really when it happened,

 

Very much so. It was a lawful assembly being lawfully carried out. As much as I despise the racists and professional agitators amongst them, they were exercising their first amendment rights until the other lot arrived to put a stop to that with violence. As a former cop, what do you think of the cops standing down here in the same way they did at Berkley University riot? Political, or did they bottle it. 

 

 

when did it kick off, when groups dressed, equipped themselves with protective and offensive equipment in anticipation of mayhem, they left home with that in mind. That is when it started. It totally goes against everything I believe in, but I almost,almost agree with Trump, there were splinter groups of all the participants including the peaceful groups who were prepared for violence.  Some in my opinion were prepared to be offensive and others may have been prepared only to defend themselves, but violence is violence and as has been shown in this case when it is released it is like mad dogs, totally beyond control. There is no justifiable reason for situations as occurred in Charlottesville on the weekend.  In days gone by we used to watch the news in the cinema, and laugh and jeer at the stupid people in South American and other countries rioting and demonstrating, I may   be wrong but it seems it really became fashionable and acceptable to us during the Vietnam war days, and they sure got nasty considering they were for peace. 

 

 

 

Which side would you say are the *******isation of the anti war bunch from the Vietnam war days? One bunch wear what they are on their sleeve as abhorrent as it is to most. Have a look into astroturfing. It's rife and there is one person above all that has perfected it. Yep, George Soros. Are you not in any way curious about who he is and what he has been up to?

 

Next time you pull me up for saying it is fact and not just my opinion, do me the courtesy of looking at the links I leave to prove that it is indeed fact and not my opinion. There's a good chap. 

 

Anyway, here is a quick explanation of astroturfing, just for you, given by someone that knows what they are talking about, or would you like me to take all day and type out an explanation just for you.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peebo]

Indeed and this whole horrible episode in Virginia is about the statue of Robert E Lee (not the car). Is that the Robert E Lee who freed all his slaves before the war started?

Interesting read here.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

[Sidelight]

The great thing about threads like this is the way they flush out the people with dodgy views. 

 

There is at least one deep state operative here.

MI6 never sleeps.

[Ulysses]

 

MI6 never sleeps.

 

 

 

[Sidelight]

It's a small world.

[Sharpie]

 

Does it matter really when it happened,

 

Very much so. It was a lawful assembly being lawfully carried out. As much as I despise the racists and professional agitators amongst them, they were exercising their first amendment rights until the other lot arrived to put a stop to that with violence. As a former cop, what do you think of the cops standing down here in the same way they did at Berkley University riot? Political, or did they bottle it. 

 

 

when did it kick off, when groups dressed, equipped themselves with protective and offensive equipment in anticipation of mayhem, they left home with that in mind. That is when it started. It totally goes against everything I believe in, but I almost,almost agree with Trump, there were splinter groups of all the participants including the peaceful groups who were prepared for violence.  Some in my opinion were prepared to be offensive and others may have been prepared only to defend themselves, but violence is violence and as has been shown in this case when it is released it is like mad dogs, totally beyond control. There is no justifiable reason for situations as occurred in Charlottesville on the weekend.  In days gone by we used to watch the news in the cinema, and laugh and jeer at the stupid people in South American and other countries rioting and demonstrating, I may   be wrong but it seems it really became fashionable and acceptable to us during the Vietnam war days, and they sure got nasty considering they were for peace. 

 

 

 

Which side would you say are the *******isation of the anti war bunch from the Vietnam war days? One bunch wear what they are on their sleeve as abhorrent as it is to most. Have a look into astroturfing. It's rife and there is one person above all that has perfected it. Yep, George Soros. Are you not in any way curious about who he is and what he has been up to?

 

Next time you pull me up for saying it is fact and not just my opinion, do me the courtesy of looking at the links I leave to prove that it is indeed fact and not my opinion. There's a good chap. 

 

Anyway, here is a quick explanation of astroturfing, just for you, given by someone that knows what they are talking about, or would you like me to take all day and type out an explanation just for you.

 

 

 

 

 

  I have as far as an ex cop can tried to relate with you in a civil manner, but in a civil manner I will advise you I think you are nuts,  I would appreciate if you would type out your link, not for me but for yourself, make sure it is on soft paper because like most of your links it would be most beneficially used for arse wipe.

[Ulysses]

It's a small world.

 

Too small for some. 

[Riddley Walker]

I have as far as an ex cop can tried to relate with you in a civil manner, but in a civil manner I will advise you I think you are nuts, I would appreciate if you would type out your link, not for me but for yourself, make sure it is on soft paper because like most of your links it would be most beneficially used for arse wipe.

Bob, you are the latest in a long line of posters who have initially tried to converse with him in a civil manner. There is genuinely no point, I think I realised a long time ago it's futile.

[elvoys]

A Lenin statue in Seattle.

 

An Engels statue just erected in Manchester.

 

Antifa flying the hammer and sickle loud and proud at the wknd but apparently they are the legacy bearers of what we fought and died for in ww2.

 

 

One rule for the lefty right on brigade, another for rednecks grunts.

 

More to the point, the Cromwell statue outside Parliament speaks volumes.

[Sharpie]

Bob, you are the latest in a long line of posters who have initially tried to converse with him in a civil manner. There is genuinely no point, I think I realised a long time ago it's futile.

 

 

Ach no big deal it must be that time of the month for me.  I should have by now gained more sense than to get upset.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

 

 

 

How do you become someone like this? Seriously? What needs to happen in your life to make you the sort of person who is desperate to inflict massive amounts of pain on innocent people? To ramp up the cruelty on people who are already completely devastated because of something your group or 'brethren' caused?

 

Vile isn't strong enough. Repulsive, disgusting, wicked...they aren't strong enough words either. I don't know how you even begin to describe this type of person. Or people, even. There's loads of them. Argh.

 

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/8/15/16144070/psychology-alt-right

 

I found this interesting. Whole groups seen as less human, less evolved. Of course, no surprise to see muslims and feminists at the absolute bottom of the list.

[Riddley Walker]

Ach no big deal it must be that time of the month for me. I should have by now gained more sense than to get upset.

You're certainly not the person in the wrong.

[niblick1874]

  I have as far as an ex cop can tried to relate with you in a civil manner, but in a civil manner I will advise you I think you are nuts,  I would appreciate if you would type out your link, not for me but for yourself, make sure it is on soft paper because like most of your links it would be most beneficially used for arse wipe.

 

I have family that are police. I have good friends that are police, One of them a very good friend indeed. It means nothing to me that they are or were cops. It means everything to me the type of people they are.

 

Nuts?

 

Here's some more nuts for you of which I will type out word for word on here so I can read it back. Arse wipe, So be it. Your words not mine.

You want to go tell these people you have told someone that is trying to point out to you what they are and told him he is nuts and his view is only fit for arse wipe?

 

What do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, Now.

What do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, Now.

and repeat.

 

Nice people yes? No? Who are they Bob? 

 

[Maple Leaf]

Am I correct in thinking the American Civil War started as a war of secession and nothing to do with slavery. It was not until after two years of war did Lincoln begin to call it a war of emancipation?  

I think you're right.

 

At least initially, the Confederate states seceded over states rights.  They felt that the federal government was overstepping its authority.

 

When I worked in the South, quite a few years ago now, there were people there who referred to the civil war as "The War of Northern Aggression."

[Ulysses]

At least initially, the Confederate states seceded over states rights.  They felt that the federal government was overstepping its authority.

 

 

However, the "states' rights" issue that was the immediate cause of the decisions by states to secede was slavery, and the area of policy and law in which the seceding states felt that the federal government was overstepping its authority was slavery - especially the question of allowing or banning slavery in territories that would become states. 

 

If slavery had not existed, it is difficult if not impossible to see what other circumstances would have led to a civil war.

[Justin Z]

The police are not private actors and nether is the chief of police or the mayor that tells him what to do.

 

More sleight of hand from you.  

 

I still have no idea what you were getting at because you didn't answer any of my questions.  Thanks for reminding me why I have you on ignore though, it's appreciated.

[Justin Z]

Justin, I was agreeing with you all the way until your ''pandering to white supremacists'' nonsense.  That's offensive IMO.

 

Pulling down this latest statue is criminal damage. Fact. Removal by the democratically elected local authority is one thing. Foaming crowds of people, whether they be on the right or left acting in this manner is criminal. 

 

You have to condemn it. Of course in your eyes, that's me sticking up for right wing arseholes, which it isn't. 

 

The answers to problems generally lie in the center somewhere. Rarely do they come from all the way right or all the way left. You seem to be so far left that you can't find the balance here. Finding the middle ground is absolutely the starting place for resolution.

 

Yeah, Tarkin already rightly pulled me up for that. I was wrong.

 

After my sarcastic response about the rights of the statue I clarified that I don't think mob action is a good thing, period, regardless of whom the mob is comprised of.  I also don't think keeping things civilised is sticking up for right wing arseholes at all.

 

You are correct from a purely statistical standpoint that the answers to problems generally lie in the centre, yes.  Any particular problem though?  Could be anywhere on the spectrum.  I am also perfectly happy being far left in American terms, as there is no left, or even centrist, party here at all.

[Bridge of Djoum]

Yeah, Tarkin already rightly pulled me up for that. I was wrong.

 

After my sarcastic response about the rights of the statue I clarified that I don't think mob action is a good thing, period, regardless of whom the mob is comprised of. I also don't think keeping things civilised is sticking up for right wing arseholes at all.

 

You are correct from a purely statistical standpoint that the answers to problems generally lie in the centre, yes. Any particular problem though? Could be anywhere on the spectrum. I am also perfectly happy being far left in American terms, as there is no left, or even centrist, party here at all.

Fair enough, Justin.

 

Also good point on the lack of a centrist party. One thing the political system over here is in desperate need of.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Justin Z]

Am I correct in thinking the American Civil War started as a war of secession and nothing to do with slavery. It was not until after two years of war did Lincoln begin to call it a war of emancipation?  

 

There is some truth in this.  I'm not sure Lincoln or anybody ever really referred to it as a war of emancipation in a formal way--it was called "the war between the states" or things like that at the time.  Lincoln did make the Emancipation Proclamation on 1 January, 1863, about 21 months after the fighting started, and it's also true that when secession and the war itself started, his primary goal was keeping the union together.  Lincoln disliked slavery, but he was also not an abolitionist for practical reasons, because he wanted to preserve the union at all costs--even a human cost.

 

Saying the Civil War started as nothing to do with slavery though is going too far. Each of the states that seceded explicitly laid out their reasons for doing so in documents, and slavery features front and centre in almost every one.  States' rights, meanwhile, are hit or miss in these missives.

 

Besides, states' rights and slavery were pretty intertwined issues in the 19th century South, because almost all of their agricultural economic activity revolved around slave labour.  They wanted the right to control their economic affairs including the slave trade.

 

Honestly, Lincoln gets major, major credit for a humanitarian act in issuing the Emancipation Proclamation when really it was just a practical move--the ranks of the union army, which was already winning the war, swelled with Black enlistees, both free men from the North and escaped former slaves from the South.

[Justin Z]

Fair enough, Justin.

 

Also good point on the lack of a centrist party. One thing the political system over here is in desperate need of.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, if there were even a nominally centrist party here, instead of centre-right and right wing economically, and both very authoritarian, I'd be a lot happier.

[Francis Albert]

Lincoln like most if not all politicians said different things at different times, or at least things open to different interpretations. Before the war he spoke of a house divided not standing and that the [uSA] could not survive half slave and half free. But during the war he said that if he could save the Union by freeing all the laves he would, if he could save it by freeing none he would, if he could save it by freeing some but not all he would. Emancipation was driven by that prime objective.

[Boris]

A Lenin statue in Seattle.

 

An Engels statue just erected in Manchester.

 

Antifa flying the hammer and sickle loud and proud at the wknd but apparently they are the legacy bearers of what we fought and died for in ww2.

 

 

One rule for the lefty right on brigade, another for rednecks grunts.

 

More to the point, the Cromwell statue outside Parliament speaks volumes.

 

Why would a statue of Engels in Manchester be so abhorent?

 

And Cromwell?  Arguably the man who set the tone for Parliamentary precedence over the Monarchy?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Why would a statue of Engels in Manchester be so abhorent?

 

And Cromwell? Arguably the man who set the tone for Parliamentary precedence over the Monarchy?

Cromwell also committed genocide in Ireland.

[elvoys]

Why would a statue of Engels in Manchester be so abhorent?

 

And Cromwell? Arguably the man who set the tone for Parliamentary precedence over the Monarchy?

My example of accepting the faults of figures in history yet accepting their place was exactly the point I was making with Cromwell, even though he likely offends many Irish and others in the UK.

 

Engels on the other hand laid the foundations for the wests most deadly 20th century ideology - there is nothing to celebrate there.

[ZeroHour]

We live in times were if a small group with a piece of rope dislike a statue or a monument, they can rip it down, spit on it and kick it while whooping and cheering at their own heroic actions.

 

Can't wait for this to become a thing for old firm fans. Rangers hauling down Big Jock holding the european trophy. Celtic have a wealth of ww2 memorials they could wreck come November 11 instead of the rather weak booing of a silence.

 

Brilliant.

[Rab87]

This may have been posted on here already, but the Vice piece from the weekend is essential viewing on this topic.

 

https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I

[redm]

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/8/15/16144070/psychology-alt-right

 

I found this interesting. Whole groups seen as less human, less evolved. Of course, no surprise to see muslims and feminists at the absolute bottom of the list.

 

Interesting read. Thanks Eldar.

 

Their findings on social isolation/economic anxiety (or lack of) were maybe not what I expected. I thought racial issues would be ahead but not to that extent. Not so marginalised or abandoned after all, perhaps. It was also a bit mad to read about dehumanisation levels for feminists and Muslims being at around the same level as ISIS. Jesus. 

[redm]

We live in times were if a small group with a piece of rope dislike a statue or a monument, they can rip it down, spit on it and kick it while whooping and cheering at their own heroic actions.

 

Can't wait for this to become a thing for old firm fans. Rangers hauling down Big Jock holding the european trophy. Celtic have a wealth of ww2 memorials they could wreck come November 11 instead of the rather weak booing of a silence.

 

Brilliant.

 

That's not really the case, though. Nobody's saying it's okay to do that. The people responsible will probably be hit with standard criminal charges for vandalism or similar. 

[ZeroHour]

That's not really the case, though. Nobody's saying it's okay to do that. The people responsible will probably be hit with standard criminal charges for vandalism or similar. 

 

 

Really?  Nobody!?  Do i need to find 1 person to prove you wrong, or does it need to be a more substantial section of society?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

This may have been posted on here already, but the Vice piece from the weekend is essential viewing on this topic.

 

https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I

 

That is some video, the guy at the end trying to justify the killing WTF.

 

At the beginning on the Friday night the people carrying torches and shouting anti-Jewish comments, the very same people Trump praised for being peaceful, yeh ok Donald.

 

Also 2,226 people have given that video the thumbs down, again WTF.

[Boris]

My example of accepting the faults of figures in history yet accepting their place was exactly the point I was making with Cromwell, even though he likely offends many Irish and others in the UK.

 

Engels on the other hand laid the foundations for the wests most deadly 20th century ideology - there is nothing to celebrate there.

 

I knew about Cromwell's Irish escapades, not his finest hour it must be said, nor his subjegation of Edinburgh. 

 

I think your point about Engels is nonsense.  

[Rab87]

That is some video, the guy at the end trying to justify the killing WTF.

 

At the beginning on the Friday night the people carrying torches and shouting anti-Jewish comments, the very same people Trump praised for being peaceful, yeh ok Donald.

 

Also 2,226 people have given that video the thumbs down, again WTF.

The vast numbers of the thumbs down are probably down to those who think this was a planned and staged "false flag"

 

Nutters, who refuse to believe that there is indeed any bad in the world, and that every major atrocity is staged by the government, to further their agenda.

[doctor jambo]

Interesting read. Thanks Eldar.

 

Their findings on social isolation/economic anxiety (or lack of) were maybe not what I expected. I thought racial issues would be ahead but not to that extent. Not so marginalised or abandoned after all, perhaps. It was also a bit mad to read about dehumanisation levels for feminists and Muslims being at around the same level as ISIS. Jesus.

Difficulty is that is how the poor white feel. Their culture, religion, beliefs and history besieged . Liberals spend ages pontificating about why young Moslems become radicalised - perhaps if is time to do the same here? The parallels are startling- it's just no one wants to draw them

[Jambo-Jimbo]

The vast numbers of the thumbs down are probably down to those who think this was a planned and staged "false flag"

 

Nutters, who refuse to believe that there is indeed any bad in the world, and that every major atrocity is staged by the government, to further their agenda.

 

Yeh, you could be right.

 

I posted on another thread about Ross Kemp's Extreme World, he was in Texas and was talking to similar people who held the same views as the folk on the vice video.

 

If even half of what these people claim is going to happen then America's fecked, this lot want a race war, as they see it to 'taking the streets back' and 'cleansing the streets' and I think we all know what that means.

[scottish_chicP]

Yeh, you could be right.

 

I posted on another thread about Ross Kemp's Extreme World, he was in Texas and was talking to similar people who held the same views as the folk on the vice video.

 

If even half of what these people claim is going to happen then America's fecked, this lot want a race war, as they see it to 'taking the streets back' and 'cleansing the streets' and I think we all know what that means.

I watched that. You could see Ross Kemp seriously struggling when the guy said black people weren't human. Eye opening and very scary!

[Peebo]

We live in times were if a small group with a piece of rope dislike a statue or a monument, they can rip it down, spit on it and kick it while whooping and cheering at their own heroic actions.

We also live in times where, in that part of the world, people remember a recent example of a small group of people and a rope tying one end to a truck and the other to a man whose skin colour they didn't like.

 

Context...it's all about context.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I watched that. You could see Ross Kemp seriously struggling when the guy said black people weren't human. Eye opening and very scary!

 

Very scary indeed.

 

This time it was baseball bats and clubs, but we all know it's only a matter of time before it's AR10's and Glock's, that came over perfectly clear in the programme.

[redm]

Difficulty is that is how the poor white feel. Their culture, religion, beliefs and history besieged . Liberals spend ages pontificating about why young Moslems become radicalised - perhaps if is time to do the same here? The parallels are startling- it's just no one wants to draw them

 

Why did you choose to use the word 'Moslem', out of interest? It's not a word you see very often at all these days.

[Justin Z]

Difficulty is that is how the poor white feel. Their culture, religion, beliefs and history besieged . Liberals spend ages pontificating about why young Moslems become radicalised - perhaps if is time to do the same here? The parallels are startling- it's just no one wants to draw them

 

Plenty of people do draw the parallels though and try to call crimes like this one white terrorism--it doesn't get any traction though.

 

We've also been trying for decades to change their economic and personal lot through political action.  But they are brainwashed by religion and ideology to be the most consistent voters against their own personal interests in the history of the world probably.  And so they sink further and further into the mire.

 

America is not the land of universal opportunity as mythos it's presented as, but it's hardly a dead end for white, heterosexual, Christian people.  They have actively had to destroy their own chances for years and years in order to get to this point.

[Adam Murray]

It seems that some areas have already started removing statues over fears of safety and security, Councilman Brandon M. Scott calling General Lee and General Jackson 'terrorists' and 'traitors'.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/us/baltimore-confederate-statues.html

[Ulysses]

That's not really the case, though. Nobody's saying it's okay to do that. The people responsible will probably be hit with standard criminal charges for vandalism or similar. 

 

 

Now now.  Stop being so reasonable.  If you let the right conflate acts of vandalism with decisions by elected municipal authorities, maybe their views will gain some credibility.  But if you ask sensible questions people might see through their spurious arguments, and that wouldn't be fair.

[redm]

Now now. Stop being so reasonable. If you let the right conflate acts of vandalism with decisions by elected municipal authorities, maybe their views will gain some credibility. But if you ask sensible questions people might see through their spurious arguments, and that wouldn't be fair.

There's a whole lot of skewed balance and wonky equivalence in this debate.

[Ulysses]

There's a whole lot of skewed balance and wonky equivalence in this debate.

 

And most of it isn't accidental.

[redm]

Heather Heyer's mother's words today were something else. What a strong woman.

 

https://twitter.com/abc/status/897850587915485185

 

"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I got to give her up, we're going to make it count."

 

Heck.

[redm]

And most of it isn't accidental.

No, it's not. It's entirely deliberate and often disingenuous, which makes this "people should listen to each other" thing a whole lot more difficult and ineffective than it could or should be.

[deesidejambo]

Heather Heyer's mother's words today were something else. What a strong woman.

 

https://twitter.com/abc/status/897850587915485185

 

"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I got to give her up, we're going to make it count."

 

Heck.

tbh both sides.  Both.  Sides.  Need to not use this murder for ends that make her death a political issue.    If one side do it then the other will also do it.

[Bindy Badgy]

We've also been trying for decades to change their economic and personal lot through political action. But they are brainwashed by religion and ideology to be the most consistent voters against their own personal interests in the history of the world probably. And so they sink further and further into the mire.

 

America is not the land of universal opportunity as mythos it's presented as, but it's hardly a dead end for white, heterosexual, Christian people. They have actively had to destroy their own chances for years and years in order to get to this point.

The fact that these people vote for that party that wants to repeal the ACA is staggering. We're well into turkeys voting for Christmas territory.

[Peebo]

tbh both sides. Both. Sides. Need to not use this murder for ends that make her death a political issue. If one side do it then the other will also do it.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone has just had their children of mowed down by some absolute ****ing lunatic *****, she can make it about whatever issue she wants.

 

Words are fine. It's the violence and murder that isn't.

[ZeroHour]

Heather Heyer's mother's words today were something else. What a strong woman.

 

https://twitter.com/abc/status/897850587915485185

 

"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I got to give her up, we're going to make it count."

 

Heck.

So she's finding solace in her daughter becoming a martyr?

[deesidejambo]

As far as I'm concerned, if someone has just had their children of mowed down by some absolute ******* lunatic *****, she can make it about whatever issue she wants.

 

Words are fine. It's the violence and murder that isn't.

So if the other side says words regarding the deceased also that is OK?     I doubt you would agree given the terrible words that were said by the other side.

 

My point is if she decides to make martyrdom an issue then the other side will no doubt respond.    imo both sides should can it.